Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Tuesday, 20 September 2016

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Regional Development, Rural Affairs, Arts and the Gaeltacht

Rural Development and Infrastructure: Belturbet, Connemara and Kells Municipal Districts

2:15 pm

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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From Cavan Belturbet municipal district and Cavan County Council I welcome Councillors John Paul Feeley, Peter McVitty and Eugene Greenan, Mr. Eoin Doyle, director of corporate services, Mr. Paddy Connaughton, assistant director of environmental and planning services, Mr. Brendan Jennings, senior engineer, and Ms Marice Galligan, senior executive planner. From Galway County Council and the municipal district of Connemara I welcome Councillor Noel Thomas, Cathaoirleach of the municipal district of Connemara, Councillors Thomas Welby, Eileen Mannion and Tom Healy, Mr. Kevin Kelly, chief executive, and Mr. Liam Gavin, director of roads, transportation, marine and general services.

From Meath County Council and Kells municipal district council I welcome the vice chairman, Councillor Eugene Cassidy, and Councillors Michael Gallagher, Johnny Guirke, David Gilroy, Seán Drew and Bryan Reilly. Ba mhaith fáilte a chur roimh gach duine atá tagtha anseo inniu. I ask witnesses to repeat their names before they speak because they will be swapping seats during the presentation. A request was made of west Cork municipal district council to attend today but unfortunately representatives were unable to attend due to a prior commitment.

I wish to draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also wish to advise witnesses that opening statements and any other documents they have submitted to the committee will be published on the committee's website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By way of introduction, the sustainability of rural communities is a major issue for the committee. The development of this committee and the Department was a response by elected representatives to issues raised prior to the general election. We need to have a sustainable rural society where people can live, have leisure time and educate themselves without feeling the need to leave the areas. We need to build the areas and make them stronger. To do this we need infrastructure. We also need services such as Garda stations, schools and post offices and water and sewage services. I hope we have a good discussion and that all of the key issues are brought before us. I call the representatives of Belturbet municipal district council to make their statement and we will proceed to the other councils.

Mr. Eoin Doyle:

I am a director of services at Cavan County Council. I thank the committee for the invitation to come before it. The document we have submitted outlines in five sections issues of regional development, with particular reference to environmental designations with sustainable development as an underlying theme. I am very mindful of time. I will set out the context for County Cavan and our perception of environmental designations. I will refer to enterprise, tourism and broadband in towns and issues specific to the municipal district.

County Cavan has a population of 73,000 people. During the most recent intercensal period it received the second highest increase in population. It is very much a high-growth area. Traditional economic sectors include indigenous enterprise, building, engineering, food and agribusiness and we strongly assert it is a county with a strongly embedded entrepreneurial culture. It is very much a county which is independent in thinking and outward looking.

Regarding environmental issues and designations, the map that I have supplied shows that the environmental designations, be they special protection areas, special areas of conservation, natural heritage areas or Natura 2000 areas, are predominantly centred in west Cavan in what we refer to as the Marble Arch Caves Global Geopark or the municipal district of Cavan-Belturbet. Positive and negative points could be made about designations. In terms of negative issues or our concerns, there is no question but that designations can add costs to planning permissions, area projects and road projects, for example, the Belturbet bypass. While the bypass was a successful project, its cost and the length of time taken to develop it were impacted negatively by a designation. There can be a public perception that an area of high designation is not somewhere one would want to build. While national policy is to encourage the use of renewable energy, designations can be a disincentive its development. As to the advantages, we strongly assert that designations protect the environment, address invasive species, which are of increasing concern, and tourism and its development in high-designation areas are served by proper designation of environmental concerns.

I will take the committee through some of the regional development issues in Cavan. In terms of road infrastructure, 5% of our roads are national primary and secondary routes, meaning that our infrastructure is regional road based. We have no rail network. While our local authority has maintained our county road maintenance fund, there is a significant reduction in non-national roads funding and a concern locally that a deterioration in our road network may occur in future. Cavan once had the negative reputation of having a poor road network. We do not now, but we do not want to see that reputation returning.

On enterprise, Cavan has a strong entrepreneurial culture. Agriculture, engineering and building are important. Some parts of our county are very accessible from Dublin at an hour and a half from this building to Virginia or, possibly, Cavan town, which is good. Other parts are not so accessible. There is tourism potential, a high quality of life and a low cost base. We are strong on the food front. The annual Taste of Cavan event attracts more than 35,000 people and involves people like Mr. Neven Maguire, Mr. Richard Corrigan, Mr. Gearóid Lynch and several others promoting Cavan publicly. It is a strong local authority event. The Action Plan for Jobs proposes 28,000 jobs for the Border region. Our bottom line is that, in order to achieve that objective, roads, broadband and water infrastructure need to be improved in Cavan.

Regarding tourism, we are an increasingly popular destination, with 90,000 overseas visitors in 2016. The Marble Arch Caves Global Geopark is a good example of environmental designation preservation and tourism. It is the only cross-border geopark in the world. It is a co-operative project between Fermanagh and Omagh District Council and Cavan's local authorities. It is important at a political level, but also in terms of preserving the area surrounding the Marble Arch Caves and the Cavan Burren Park, which is in Blacklion. The Cavan Burren Park is attracting up to 30,000 visitors per year. Three years ago, it was only attracting a few hundred people. In this, one sees significant benefits accruing from environmental promotion and preservation.

There is nothing in my presentation with which members are not familiar. The national broadband plan needs to be rolled out to develop the county. Most of our county is in the amber area, which is the Government-supported area. Broadband is a fundamental factor in developing micro-enterprise in Cavan.

Our chief executive and elected members have prioritised town teams. We are establishing a team in each town, as Deputy Smyth is well aware. We aim to establish 19 separate teams in all towns and villages. Each town will have discretionary funding of a certain level - it will not be enormous money - to carry out works and try to turn itself around. It is a bottom-up project that we are rolling out. Cavan, Virginia and Cootehill have started and discretionary funds have been allocated. I might depart slightly on the Cavan-Belturbet municipal district and say that infrastructure and accessibility to the rest of the island are important. Blacklion, where my colleague, Councillor Feeley, is from, is close to an hour from Cavan. That is a significant distance from the capital.

The EPA guidelines on the treatment of effluent from domestic buildings pose a significant issue in Cavan.

We have heavy clay soils. The EPA code of practice, which is mandatory, could pose a significant disincentive to west Cavan's population if further research is not conducted and environmentally sensitive ways of treating effluent are not identified and rolled out. Rural depopulation in west Cavan is significant. This is an important cross-party concern among all members of Cavan County Council.

As to the political constituency, the division of County Cavan into two separate lots is, to put it mildly, unpopular. Cross-party support for the constituency's restoration is strong.

Cavan as a county has considerable development potential, but it requires additional roads, tourism and broadband investment. As a Border county, Brexit is a source of concern. Any devaluation in currencies could have a significant impact. There is anecdotal evidence at a tourism level that Brexit is already having an impact on some providers. Targeted investment to improve connectivity and support micro-enterprise is needed. Environmental designations, if properly managed as in the case of our geopark, can be an advantage to tourism promotion and environmental protection.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I might ask the delegates from Connemara municipal district council to proceed. We will ask questions of everyone at the end.

Mr. Noel Thomas:

I thank the committee. I am the Cathaoirleach of the Connemara municipal district in County Galway. My fellow councillors are Thomas Welby, Eileen Mannion and Tom Healy and our director of services for roads is Mr. Liam Gavin. We are here to discuss the general effects that designated areas are having on the development of infrastructure such as roads.

In Connemara, we have a case study in the N59, the main artery connecting Galway city and Clifden. The majority of the road is of a poor standard and is urgently in need of upgrading. It is considered to be the economic lifeline for Connemara in terms of regional and local development and its upgrading and improvement are key objectives in the county and regional development plans.

The road's upgrade was split into two sections. The first was a 15 km stretch from Maam Cross to Oughterard. This section was granted planning permission pending approval by the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, of the method statements submitted by Galway County Council. A method statement is the blueprint showing how construction work will be carried out. In this case, the NPWS wanted to see how Galway County Council would carry out these works without affecting the pearl mussel. The council submitted its method statements more than 18 months ago. For some reason, however, the NPWS has failed to accept them. This is not rocket science. The greatest concern is that silt would contaminate a local waterway. This would not be difficult to address.

The second section was from Maam Cross to Clifden, stretching approximately 30 km. It was refused because some of it would have gone through designated special areas of conservation, SACs. The problem in Connemara is that 58% of our land is designated as an SAC, special protected area or natural heritage area. With such constraints, it is practically impossible to build a new road or upgrade an existing one without impacting on a designated site.

Galway County Council, through its planning proposals for the upgrading of the N59, is offering the solution with the least impact on the designated lands. The impact is minuscule, as almost all of the construction work would take place on line on the existing road and only a small percentage would take place off line for realigning some dangerous corners. This is a national secondary route that is in urgent need of repair. We should not find ourselves in a situation in which such a minor section of designated land can delay a vital project.

There is a similar situation with the R336 in south Connemara. Several routes are proposed for the new road from Barna to Rossaveal, but the most preferred one goes through designated lands. This route would have the least impact on the community, but we cannot even consider it because we know it will not happen, given that it goes through designated lands.

Unfortunately, people come second place to birds, bats, snails and plants when we all could and should share the same space with a little careful planning.

In fact, the upgrading of the N59 could only have a positive effect on the environment. Currently, all the surface residue from tyres, oil and other chemicals flows freely off the surface of the N59 during periods of rain and into the drains that feed into the habitat of this pearl mussel. With the new road, oil and residue catchment lagoons would be built which would stop this from happening, therefore improving the water quality for all aquatic life.

It is not just the environmental aspects that we must take into consideration when trying to build or upgrade roads through designated land. There are also huge time and cost constraints associated with trying to deliver such projects in those areas. There are very large costs in formulating environmental impact statement, EIS, reports and other associated reports. There are also huge extra costs because of the extra time required to complete a project under the environmental constraints attached to a job such as this.

What alternatives do we have? Unfortunately, in Connemara we do not have many alternatives. The one being offered to us at present is that we resurface the existing road. That will only have a limited shelf life, due to its boggy nature. This is basically throwing good money down the drain. There is also the danger of putting a good surface on a road with dangerous corners. Speed will increase and, as a result, the risk of accidents will also increase. There have been too many accidents already on this road, with several of them leading to deaths. All we seek is a safe road that is built for purpose, and this should be well achievable even going through designated land.

We have compiled some recommendations which we have provided to the members of the committee. I will elaborate on them, if possible. The first is that there should be a structured system with a clear timescale put in place for decisions on method statements. In this regard there should be more and better engagement with the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, An Taisce and other bodies at pre-planning stage so we can determine before going to the planning stage, and wasting money on EIS reports and so forth, whether the job can proceed. Galway County Council in this case submitted eight method statements to the NPWS 18 months ago and to date only two of those have been agreed. It is unacceptable that the NPWS can be allowed to have a seemingly unlimited amount of time to decide on these method statements. A timeframe must be introduced. We cannot leave it open-ended. That does not work.

Second, a thorough investigation of the NPWS should be carried out to ascertain whether it has the necessary resources and qualifications to conduct the scientific oversight of this project. We see how it has taken so long for the NPWS to respond with its observations on the method statements. That does not make sense. The only conclusion we can arrive at is that perhaps the service does not have the resources, qualifications or staff required, or perhaps there is another reason it has taken so long. Unfortunately, there is also the possibility that it does not wish to see any improvement in Connemara.

Third, a national policy should be introduced for the oversight of any projects seeking planning in designated areas. This is in the interest of fairness and transparency. In other parts of the country there was no problem with infrastructure going through designated sites, but in Connemara we appear to be caught by extreme constraints and we are going nowhere. In calling for a national policy to be introduced, we seek something that is transparent and in which everybody is treated the same, unlike now where one county can get its plans developed without a problem while we do not because we have a different personality, perhaps, who is conducting the business in our county. That is not fair, so we call for a policy to be introduced on that.

The N59 is vital infrastructure for the economic growth of Connemara, so I hope the committee will give serious consideration to the recommendations we have put before it today. I thank the committee for its time.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Míle buíochas. I invite the representative of the Kells Municipal District to give his presentation.

Mr. Eugene Cassidy:

There are six municipal districts in County Meath and Kells Municipal District has 35% of the county's land mass. I wish to express my thanks, on behalf of the Kells Municipal District, for the invitation to attend the meeting and for the opportunity to make a presentation to the committee on the issues that are prevalent in the rural district of Kells.

Kells Municipal District is located in north County Meath and is predominantly a rural area. Kells is the largest town in the area, with a population of 2,208. The municipal district covers an area of 817 square kilometres with a population of just over 31,500, as recorded in the 2011 census.

It is considered to have a relatively young population, with 27% in the zero to 18 years age group. Kells and Navan municipal districts are considered to be significantly more disadvantaged than other municipal districts in Meath. The members of the committee will have received a written submission from the Kells Municipal District members, but I will summarise the predominant issues that are affecting all communities in the municipal district.

Poor broadband access is a major issue and has the potential to limit education, employment, economic and social opportunities. Greater emphasis must be given to transportation issues, including availability and cost. This is especially important in the context of the closing or downgrading of services available locally. Given the reliance on the road network, with road lengths of 1,192 km in the Kells Municipal District and 933 km of those classified as local roads, funding for ongoing maintenance of this network becomes critical.

There is also the issue of the proximity of education and training facilities. Accessing these facilities currently requires a great deal of effort and access to the limited transportation options available. Kells Municipal District has the highest level of low education and the lowest level of high education, as is shown in the 2011 census. There must be access to additional resources in schools. The second level school in Nobber village is designated as disadvantaged and therefore attracts some extra resources. However, it is believed that additional resources are required in feeder national schools, given that by the time the children reach second level they have not received the additional support they require.

Recreational facilities for younger people are required. It is the opinion of the municipal district that there must be greater focus on young people aged between 12 and 18 years. There are very few facilities or activities for teenage groups and access to activities and events can limit participation. Funding opportunities for these facilities are limited.

On the role of the family in the community, due to the lack of opportunities and the need for family members to travel outside of the municipal district for education or work, with many young people relocating to other parts of Ireland or emigrating, there is a loss of social capital and a break-up of family life and local community cohesion throughout the municipal district.

With regard to isolation and mental health issues, according to the 2011 census 12% of the population of Kells Municipal District is aged more than 65 years. That is the highest rate in County Meath. Many men and women in this category live alone, but it is not just the older generation that lives alone or is alone for most of the time. Members will agree that this leads to a feeling of isolation and poor mental health.

According to the 2011 census, 12% of the population in the Kells Municipal District has a disability. Given the rural nature of the district and the potential reliance on transport services, it is essential that this group of society is provided for and that services are available to ensure that these people are able to participate in and contribute to the community as they would wish.

In summary, our opening statement gave a consideration of rural Ireland. It is important that Government policies are rural proofed to ensure that they support the long-term sustainable development of rural Ireland. We will support the committee in its endeavours to promote any initiatives which will help to achieve this.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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We will now take questions from the members of the committee. Each questioner will have ten minutes, and that includes the question and the answer. I will start with Deputy Niamh Smyth.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for attending today. It is clear from the presentations that much thought and effort went into them and I appreciate the witnesses taking the time to do that.

I will refer to Cavan County Council, but the other local authority representatives can contribute on the topics if they wish. I have just returned from my party's think-in, to which we invited representatives from IDA Ireland to discuss regional and rural development.

We know that in Cavan and Monaghan we have been very much overlooked in terms of IDA Ireland visits to the Cavan-Monaghan area. The chairman of IDA Ireland, Frank Ryan, was there and he talked about education and facilities to attract businesses etc. The recent referendum outcome of Brexit and its the implications, particularly on areas like west Cavan, also took up a lot of our talking and thinking time. This morning we have read about the mushroom industry and the agrifood sector which we see plummeting already as a result of the Brexit decision. With regard to regional rural development and special designated areas, and I refer specifically to west Cavan in terms of de-population which might not be attractive for investment, what can we do at a national level to change that situation? Is the special area designation having the impact, as we have heard, on Galway with regard to that kind of development, when one talks about the unattractiveness of population decrease with regard to development?

Mr. Eoin Doyle:

There is certainly an argument to say that environmental designations can preserve a pristine environment and in Cavan we would attempt to market our environment as a very high quality place in which to live and work. That does not do away with the deficits, but if one is looking at the new economy the roll-out of high-speed broadband in rural Ireland would be a game changer for many businesses. It would enable many small businesses to locate themselves in rural Ireland and it would give entrepreneurs the opportunity to base themselves there. As it is, there is anecdotal and hard evidence that businesses are leaving places like Cavan to go to larger population centres on the basis of broadband alone. The rapid acceleration of the national broadband programme would be an opportunity for new enterprise and development opportunities.

The Deputy has rightly spoken about Brexit. Up to the point of Brexit, the growth of the agriculture and food sector would have been very significant in Cavan, so obviously this House needs to keep an eye on how we can influence that to make sure we can mitigate the Brexit effects on what is a growth industry. Aside from that, in my opinion, a re-brand of the central corridor of the country for tourism would be a significant action. Ireland has had great success with the Wild Atlantic Way and in Dublin. I know that Fáilte Ireland has plans with regard to it but it needs to be backed up with a very strong investment programme, at both capital and promotional levels, to market the central aisle of the country, of which Cavan will form part, from the point of view of tourism. There is significant heritage, cultural and waterways potential in those areas. I suggest that this would be a priority investment for any administration.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Doyle very much. I have one question. We talk about the very basic roads and I know the council has had significant losses in funding. Perhaps Mr. Doyle could talk the committee through this issue, the decrease suffered and the impact it has had on development .

Mr. Eoin Doyle:

The level of reduction has been quite significant. Anecdotally there have been reductions in total funding of anything up to 60% or 70% of funding which the local authority has at its disposal, be it the council's own funding or departmental funding. Cavan's local authority has maintained its county road fund which is our own fund at its level, or thereabouts, to maximise whatever funding comes our way from the Department. We have included figures which show reductions of that magnitude in the period from 2005 to 2015. There are reductions from €23 million down to as little as €12 million in total non-national roads funding. This is very significant.

I would bring members back in their recollection of Cavan which was once regarded as a county with very poor road infrastructure. Now it has an excellent road infrastructure but it is reaching a point where, by virtue of broken maintenance cycles, we could end up having difficulties in the non-national road infrastructure. In a county which is predominantly based on non-national roads, that is crucially important. It would be remiss of me to not mention the fact that from O'Connell Bridge as far as Aghalane Bridge on the Border, every single town is bypassed apart from Virginia. The bypassing of a town like that would provide access to an entire swathe of the county, from as far away as where my colleague is from in the Cavan-Belturbet district up as far as Blacklion. It would be a major infrastructural project for Cavan.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Is the fact that there is no local improvement scheme in the area having an impact on Cavan?

Mr. John Paul Feeley:

The lack of a local improvement scheme is symptomatic of a neglect and a withdrawal of support for rural communities, particularly the most disadvantaged rural communities which tend to serve people who are living well off the beaten track and who are very much in need of support to continue living in and sustaining rural communities. Reference was made to places being attractive areas in which to live. West Cavan, and indeed the entire county of Cavan, is a very attractive place to live but every impediment possible is put in our way to allowing those communities to survive and progress. My colleague Mr. Doyle referred to the EPA guidelines. The guidelines are another example of how half of the county has been sterilised when it comes to planning applications for permission to allow people to provide their own homes. This is having a huge impact. It means that GAA clubs are no longer able to field teams. While we have already had significant investment in the provision and improvement of primary schools they are now facing closure in the not too distant future because the new families are not coming in. People are not able to provide their own homes, for themselves, in the places where they want to live. Surely we can accept the advice from many architects and engineers where there are solutions that would provide very effective treatment of effluent from homes. Yet the EPA seems to be unwilling to look at the guidelines it has put forward and make provision for those types of treatment systems. It is just another example of the lack of support, and indeed the impediments that are put in place, for rural communities to sustain themselves or to allow them to build a critical mass of population to make the areas more attractive economically thus allowing small indigenous business to survive within a county such as our own. If IDA Ireland was referred to I do not believe that IDA Ireland knows where Cavan is. It is not that long ago since IDA Ireland was planning to sell its property in Cavan town. Thankfully that was stopped. However, IDA Ireland does not seem to want to take a progressive approach and make provision for business to set up there.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Chairman I have one final question.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy has one more minute.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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If we go back to yesterday's presentation and with regard to IDA Ireland, it says there will be a push now for regional development and it is going to start looking outside the main cities. If one considers education we have been very fortunate in many development across Cavan and Monaghan. The ETB chief executive Mr. Martin O'Brien has now moved to Meath-Louth so the gentlemen who are here today will be lucky to have him. We have Mr. John Kearney looking after us now in Cavan-Monaghan. What are the witnesses' own feelings about the fact that we do not have a third level college although we have two great institutes? Is it a drawback in any way? We heard from IDA Ireland about this being important.

Mr. John Paul Feeley:

Of course easy access to third level education is very important. We also have to be realistic in that one cannot reasonably expect a major third level institution in every county in the State. That being said, there is no reason why IDA Ireland cannot look at, and promote, more regional locations for investment. IDA Ireland talks about moving to the regions but their idea of the regions is very far removed from places such as County Cavan, it is about places which are, effectively, designated as hubs and so forth. IDA Ireland views Galway city as regional development. One does not begrudge any place the jobs but in order to spread out and ensure that communities and counties are allowed to develop, they need to look a little bit further than that.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an bhfinné. I will put a few questions myself. There is no way one can overestimate the damage being done by the over-concentration of economic activity and infrastructure in one small space on the east coast, to the detriment of the rest of the State. That is damaging for people living in Dublin also because it means that schools and services which people need become far more difficult to access while there are whole sections of the rest of the State becoming de-populated. This leads to a huge social deprivation. I do not believe that people are fully aware of the levels of social deprivation and poverty which exist throughout the country in rural Ireland as a result of that. Enterprise follows the path of least resistance. If there is resistance and cause for resistance than obviously businesses are not going to locate in those areas.

It is impossible to overestimate the damage the Border does with regard to the natural flow of enterprise for counties like Cavan and Meath.

Can the witnesses put the issue of broadband on the record? Each of the counties would be very badly affected. Mobile phone coverage has been a disastrous experience in much of rural Ireland. I ask each witness to speak briefly on that.

I would also like witnesses to detail the collapse in funding for roads experienced in Galway and Meath over recent years. Many of the witnesses were involved in road campaigns. If roads are not in place, customers and suppliers cannot travel to locations which will hamper enterprise. I ask the witnesses to discuss those investment changes and broadband in each area.

Mr. John Paul Feeley:

In terms of our county, it is a regular item for discussion by all of us as councillors across the political divide because there is no access to those basic services. If businesses and families are to exist in an area, they should almost be taken as a given. Proper roads, broadband and mobile phone coverage in communities are absolute essentials. There are large swathes of areas in Cavan, including around the county town, where it is impossible-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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What is the size of the area in Cavan without functioning business broadband?

Mr. John Paul Feeley:

Mr. Doyle presented a map which shows the areas where there is a lack of broadband, which effectively covers all of the county. One of the problems with expenditure is that it is done on the basis of serving a specific amount of population. There have been various schemes over the years - Deputy Ó Cuív is familiar with the CLÁR scheme - which targeted areas where there was a substantial amount of territory but very few people in order to ensure some level of investment was directed towards them. Whether it is the national broadband scheme or investment in roads, that type of targeted investment in order to give areas something of a lift is absolutely essential.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Councillor Gallagher wishes to speak.

Mr. Michael Gallagher:

In our area, 36% of the non-national roads in the county, on the admission of an engineer from the county council, would require €18 million in order to prepare them to a decent standard. This affects businesses in the area, tourism and the development of the region. Funding is required. We have some of the worst roads in Ireland.

Another issue is the that the Slane bypass has been refused permission. This would give people from the north of the county access to Dublin on the M52. It is a very important project for the development of part of north Meath.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Is there any understanding of the changes in the budgets in Meath with regard to roads?

Mr. Michael Gallagher:

We have not received any extra funding. When there were six municipal areas we did not get a fair share, but we are now getting a fair share percentage wise. The issue needs to be addressed. The roads are in a serious condition.

Another matter affecting the environment in the county is the North-South interconnector which is proposed to come through the county. It will have a negative affect on the development of our tourism and heritage. The proposed wind farm close to the heritage town of Kells would comprise 50 160 m high windmills. which would have a detrimental effect on the environment and landscape of Meath. These are issues that need to be addressed.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Does Galway have an indication of what kind of changes in investment in roads have come from central Government and councillors? I ask witnesses to outline the broadband experience.

Mr. Liam Gavin:

I am the director of services in roads. Galway has the biggest network of roads in the country - there are about 5,500 km of non-national roads in the county. It is a major network. Roads funding has dropped to 1996 levels, from about €35 million or €40 million per year to under €20 million per year in the past number of years. There has been a significant fall in the input into non-national road maintenance. That fall has continued.

Galway is now in a 20 or 25-year cycle in terms of maintaining roads. The cycle should be seven to ten years, but that has now dropped way back.

As one can imagine, by that stage the road is in very poor condition. Roads funding in Galway has been seriously impacted over the past ten or 15 years and is not increasing. We would need an increase of €2 million or €3 million per annum every year over the next ten years to start bringing us back up to levels that are sustainable in terms of maintaining the road network.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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What level of the county is covered by business broadband?

Mr. Tom Healy:

In terms of an estimate, I am afraid nothing comes to mind. I have argued that we need a full fibre replacement of the existing copper network. I can describe how extremely patchy it is. In one area of Connemara one can get a 4G signal which is automatically a 25 Mb download, whereas if I go to the north municipal district there is an entire valley near Cong where nobody can get phone or wireless broadband. There is no provider there. To the best of my knowledge, those people still have no serious broadband availability. The network is extremely patchy.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I have a quick question on the environmental designation issue, which is of particular concern to Galway as well as other counties. There has to be a balance between preservation of our local physical heritage and economic activity, and where that balance lies is key. In order to understand that balance, it is probably good for us to understand the actual cost of the environmental designations. Would the witnesses be able to estimate the cost to date of the planning process of the Galway ring road? It is not yet at completion stage, but we would like to get an understanding of the cost.

Mr. Liam Gavin:

Let me put environmental designations in context. Some 38% of County Galway is covered by designation. Some 58% of the Connemara area is covered by designation. It is a very high quality designation which is very restrictive in terms of the work that can be done; the necessity for planning permission and the bar for environmental assessment is extremely high.

The Chairman referred to the Galway ring road or outer city bypass. Galway County Council, along with TII and Galway city applied for planning permission for the Galway outer city bypass. That was challenged at European level and was lost following five years of our attempt to get planning permission. We got nowhere. The cost at that point was in the region of €12 million in terms of trying to get planning permission for environmentally designated areas.

Reference was made to the M59. We have already spent €3 million to try to get planning permission for the road. We started trying to get permission in 2007 and the first permission was granted in 2013. The second element of permission we have tried to get has taken us three years, and overall we spent over €3 million. Large costs are involved in trying to get permission and bring them to fruition.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I have a final question. On average, how long does it take the National Parks and Wildlife Service to deal with councillors?

Mr. Liam Gavin:

We have submitted eight of what we call method statements, in terms of how we would do the work, to the National Parks and Wildlife Service since 2013, and we have received only two back. The other six are lying with the service for over 18 months and it has been unable to give us an answers in regard to an approval on them.

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Labour)
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I apologise for having to leave the meeting shortly. I welcome the delegation, which includes some of my constituents. Senators are elected by councillors and I thank them for all the support they gave me over the course of the Seanad election.

I wish to ask a number of questions. The representative from Cavan mentioned Brexit and obviously that is going to be key for the Border region. Brexit will need a whole-of-government approach due to the impact it will have on the State, particularly the Border region. Is there an attempt by the Government, or a conversation happening among members of the Government, in respect of the Border region? How could local councillors contribute in that regard?

I wish to ask a question of the representative from Kells. I spent some time as a Minister of State in the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, and there was a push at that time for a kind of regional centre for the arts to be based around Kells and to promote Kells as a kind of cultural corridor. It was interesting that the representative from Cavan also mentioned having an emphasis in that part of the world around culture and heritage. What is the current position regarding that plan? It had great potential when we discussed it with representatives from the area.

As the Chairman said, when people begin to criticise the EPA and designated lands, I become a little nervous. However, I do remember in my own constituency trying to get a flat complex knocked down in order to get better housing conditions for the residents. It turned out that the flat complex, even though it was riddled with people abusing heroin and all sorts of difficulties, was listed. Therefore, it could not be demolished. It is still there, just beside Croke Park. While the listing system used by Dublin City Council is absolutely sacred and we never suggested that it should be interfered with, we found ourselves thinking of some way in which we could get around it. The gentleman from Connemara mentioned that there had been situations throughout the country with regard to designated lands and there seemed to be a suggestion that there are different things happening in different areas. I do not know if it would be appropriate for him to provide an example but if he could do so, it would be interesting to get the relevant information.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Who would like to address those questions?

Mr. Thomas Welby:

I could give an example in respect of designated lands.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Mr. Thomas Welby:

We see it in a cross-county border context with Mayo. Mayo has created a very successful greenway. Large sections of the greenway go through special areas of conservation, SAC, designated lands. Mayo County Council did not have to seek planning permission and there was no input from the National Parks and Wildlife Service. On a number of occasions, Galway County Council has been in court with the National Parks and Wildlife Service in respect of hedge cutting at the side of the road. I personally believe that there seems to be a different standard in Galway.

We want to be very specific regarding the project we are pursuing because we believe it is a major issue. I am going to show the committee the interaction that Mr. Pat Warner, the National Parks and Wildlife Service's regional director, had at the aural hearing for planning permission. I will pass it around when I am finished. I am going to read the committee a number of excerpts from it. This document is the complete amount of what he said on the day. Mr. Warner began by saying that it was important to note that the proposal is to upgrade an existing main road using almost entirely the same footprint and drainage channel. He said that it would exchange the roadside drains, at least in part, with more modern ones designed with the knowledge of the need of aquatic species such as salmon and freshwater pearl mussel. He also stated that the proposed land take of 0.007% of the SAC was clearly an insignificant proportion. He finished by saying that it was reasonable, therefore, to conclude that, once constructed, the new road would be better for nature conservation that the current one. In the context of the works programmes, he said that they were well-established engineering precautions and that there were no reasons to question their efficacy. Mr. Warner stated that the detail contained in the document submitted in support of the application was impressive and professional and that it was clear that the developer took these issues seriously. This was said by a representative of the National Parks and Wildlife Service when he was at the planning aural hearing. He finished his closing statement by noting that the National Parks and Wildlife Service found no reasonable probability of significant damage from the development. He said that since then, he had listened to all the submissions at the hearing and had heard nothing that would make him modify his original position.

Effectively, the regional director of the National Parks and Wildlife Service was at the planning application in 2012 and those were his submissions in respect of it. That man is gone and he is retired now. My belief is that there has been a change of personnel and a change of attitude. That is why we need a national approach to these projects. It is totally unsustainable to wait 18 months for the reports to even be acknowledged, not to be told that there are issues with the reports, but simply for them to be acknowledged. There is total inaction. We cannot be spending taxpayers' money and not even getting a response. It is totally inappropriate.

Mr. Barry Lynch:

Senator Ó Ríordáin raised an issue about Kells specifically. My name is Barry Lynch and I am the director of housing, community and transportation. The current and previous development plans for Kells plan to exploit and create a cultural quarter in the area of Kells in close proximity to St. Colmcille's Church and St. Colmcille's House. It is very much under-exploited in terms of its potential and we are looking at ways to see how that might be best brought forward, including very recently a trial of a new one-way traffic system within the town. We will be producing a report to see what learning has emerged from that. We are certainly trying to emulate other locations, such as Westport, that are models of town design. I know that officials and elected members have visited Westport. We are looking at progressing a town design statement as well in order to improve that. Councillor Drew may like to add to what I have said.

Mr. Seán Drew:

The Senator raised a number of issues across various sectors. Our problem in Kells municipal district is with funding. The problem throughout rural Ireland, I would say, is the lack of funding that we receive relative to the major cities. Of the 31 local authorities, Meath County Council has the lowest expenditure per capitaof any local authority. The gap between the city and rural areas is vast. For example, on the revenue account of 2014 of the local authorities - nothing to do with the capital account - there was a surplus in Dublin City Council of €28 million and in Fingal County Council of €16 million. That is the accumulated surplus for one year. In Meath County Council, we have a deficit of €3.5 million. We have brought that down from €8 million in recent years with a major struggle. The impact that lack of funding is having on the development of the Kells municipal district in particular is devastating.

We have heard about the roads and I am delighted to hear that the roads in Cavan have improved to the extent that they have. Unfortunately, in north Meath we now have the worst roads because of a complete lack of funding. We collect motor tax from of €53 million per year from motorists who are resident in Meath. We receive funding of approximately €12 million to €13 million back to maintain the roads throughout the county. Bear in mind, as a previous speaker already stated, that over 31% of those roads are in the Kells municipal district area.

Some of the policies that have been driven by the Oireachtas sound great. For example, the Kells municipal district - which is basically north Meath - was added to the map of the EU regional aid approximately two and a half years ago for a five-year term. We have not received a single penny or job out of that. Colouring in a map for us has done nothing. As a result of the fact that we are on the map in question, the Government is now allowed to designate strategy and incentives towards those EU regional aid areas. However, it is not being done. The fact that we have been coloured in on a map, with which there was great fanfare about two and a half years ago and which we were delighted to get in north Meath, has produced nothing on the ground. Similarly, just-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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If the witness could conclude-----

Mr. Seán Drew:

Very quickly. The town and village renewal scheme was great, but what does it mean to the Kells municipal district? It means €63,000. On the ground, that is what it means for us - €63,000.

As for the rural recreation allocation of €4.5 million, County Meath is not getting a single penny. I believe the focus of Members of the Oireachtas and of this committee should be on this issue. If we do not have the funding, we can talk all we like about what we wish to get done in rural Ireland. We must get the funding.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Councillor Mannion may come in briefly.

Ms Eileen Mannion:

I thank the Chair and thank Senator Ó Ríordáin for the question. We are here today because of our absolute frustration with the lack of progress in developing the upgrade of the N59, which is the main artery through north Connemara and into Clifden. While 58% of Connemara is designated, we do not have an issue with this as the importance of protecting the environment is acknowledged by the people living in the area. However, we wish to coexist with the environment and to be able to develop our main infrastructure in particular. Clifden is 80 km from the nearest acute hospital in Galway. Consequently, someone in Clifden who experiences a heart attack, a stroke, a serious road traffic accident or any other medical emergency must, if he or she gets in a car, travel for 80 km to get there. An Bord Pleanála has admitted the road is substandard, which is why we have appeared before the committee. While we have no problem with designations, we wish to coexist with them. Tourism is a critical industry for the area. The witnesses from County Cavan mentioned a figure but last year in Connemara, Kylemore Abbey and gardens had 300,000 visitors, while Connemara National Park had 169,000 visitors. At some point in August this year, Kylemore Abbey was obliged to close its gates because of the numbers visiting it. However, people are being expected to travel on a substandard road to these destinations. The businesses in Connemara have been struggling throughout the recession to survive. They have fought to remain open, have cut costs and have kept on their staff. However, they are now concerned that with the lack of progress on the upgrade of the N59, their businesses will not survive and people will not come to the area. The Wild Atlantic Way has been a huge success and has increased visitor numbers but we must have in place the basic infrastructure to maintain our communities, which are extremely important.

We mentioned population and in the preliminary figures on rural decline released from the last census, the population of Clifden has declined by 17.9%, that is, has fallen from 2,613 people in 2011 to 2,145 in 2016, which represents a loss of 468 people. This is a huge number of people for an area to lose and Clifden is in the top ten areas for population loss nationwide. This loss will result in reduced school numbers and reduced numbers of people using local services or shopping in the towns. I note that among the surrounding villages, the populations of Letterfrack, Ballyconneely, Leenane and Renvyle have decreased by 28%, 15%, 15% and 8%, respectively. The population is declining all around us and we are fighting to survive. We need an upgrade of our road and seek positive engagement with the National Parks and Wildlife Service to deliver our infrastructure. We respect the environment and wish to work with it but we must coexist to continue.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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An bhfuil ceist an-ghairid ag an Seanadóir?

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Labour)
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I seek a response on the Brexit question.

Mr. John Paul Feeley:

Brexit obviously is of particular concern to Blacklion, where I live, as well as to the entire Cavan-Belturbet municipal district. In recent years, thankfully, the effect of the Border had declined to a greater extent with regard to people moving across it with ease or doing business across it with relative ease. Admittedly, there were issues regarding the taxation of workers living on one side of the Border versus the other. As a result of the proposed Brexit, a halt has been put to many funding streams to which we as a local authority had been looking from peace and reconciliation funding and all of that.

As for people and their day-to-day lives in these communities, agriculture already has been affected. Many businesses which had plans for development have frozen those plans because they do not know whether their catchment area will be able to access them in a post-Brexit scenario or what will be the implications of the Border for the movement of people, goods and services. Situations have already arisen concerning people who had been planning to buy property on one side of the Border. For instance, my home village of Blacklion is a naturally convenient place for someone who wishes to commute to Enniskillen to work as it is only 20 minutes' away. I already am aware of people who had been thinking of buying property there to live in that village but who have now decided against it because they are concerned there may be issues with them working in Enniskillen in a couple of years' time, depending on what Brexit is doing. As a council, we have had a special meeting to discuss it but the reality is we are discussing an issue about which we are hugely concerned but about which we really have no answers.

All we can do is express our concerns. This issue must be determined at a level far beyond our council and I am uncertain that the implications for communities such as my own and others right along the Border are high on the priority list of the Government in London. It was never a great priority for it previously and certainly will not be a priority for governments across Europe when they deal with the British Government in the coming months and years.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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While I am about to call Senator Craughwell, elected representatives appearing before the joint committee should state their names before making a contribution as the names are changing all the time in the room.

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank the Chair for facilitating me this afternoon, particularly regarding the delegation from Connemara. The 117 road accidents and eight deaths over a number of years across the Clifden road are a matter of concern. I am very familiar with this road, having spent my childhood there, and I have travelled it many times. It is and always has been a road of desperate quality. Councillor Welby referred to Mr. Pat Warner's report a little while ago-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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There is mobile phone interference. Perhaps it can be turned off.

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I apologise. Mr. Warner's report appears to be generally positive about the stretch from Oughterard to Maam Cross and I am little concerned that nothing has happened. The project is going nowhere. I do not know whether money has been set aside for it or where matters stand. This is the second time the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, has come to my attention in recent days. Is there a logjam of some sort in the NPWS in Galway? Is there a lack of qualification or understanding as to what is required? Unless I am mistaken, Mr. Warner's report dates back six years to 2010 and the project has not moved forward. The next stretch of road includes Kylemore Abbey and approaches the high-tourism area of Clifden and towards Rosleague and Leenane. All these areas are within the proximity of the next section and planning has been refused for that. What is Mr. Welby's position in this regard? The population is declining in those areas, road traffic accidents are increasing and the issue of heart attack or stroke was mentioned. I am aware that when I get on to the Clifden road at Oughterard, the only chance I have of getting past any vehicle between Oughterard and Clifden is on a small stretch at Maam Cross, after which I will be back on bad roads again. Is it the fault of the National Parks and Wildlife Service that the delegation from Connemara find themselves in this position?

Mr. Thomas Welby:

In response to Senator Craughwell, An Bord Pleanála put in place a condition that the National Parks and Wildlife Service must oversee this, but on the basis of Mr. Warner's presentation at the oral hearing, one would expect that a lot of background work had been done and that this project would have moved on. My concern is Mr. Warner has moved on but we do not know and are at a loss as to whether it is a breakdown in the system within the National Parks and Wildlife Service and that it lacks the personnel and professional people to do it or whether people are opposed to the project. Our recommendation is there should be a structured system with a clear timescale put in place for decisions on method statements.

As I stated, if someone is given a report seeking his or her input, it is completely unacceptable if that person has not come back after 18 months. This is not in any way acceptable. While the NPWS may have been put in a position in which it never had been previously, if it seeks the protection of the environment - as do we all - I would expect the service to be constructive and that it should come forward to lay out clearly what are the issues. There are other issues in respect of designations and there is a cumulative effect on various projects. If members can imagine that 58% of Connemara is designated, a 15 km zone has been put in place on top of that. If one carries out a development within 15 km of a designated area and even if one is not within that designated area, one must prove the development will not have an effect on the designated site.

Effectively, what we want is meaningful discussion. With regard to Mr. Warner, 0.007% was taken away from the SAC designation and another 213 acres were designated in Connemara in 2016. That 50% is climbing all the time and the zone where we are carrying out development is being reduced. We must have a meaningful discussion and meaningful input from the National Parks and Wildlife Service within a structured timescale.

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am familiar with the tourism industry in Connemara and know that, in particular, the Clifden area is of high benefit to the west of Ireland. The population is falling and there are all sorts of other issues. Do the witnesses have any idea of the numbers visiting places such as Kylemore, Clifden town, the Sky Road and so on?

Mr. Kevin Kelly:

I will ask my colleague, Ms Mannion, to deal with that.

Ms Eileen Mannion:

As I am from Clifden, I know we have had a very busy season, thankfully. As I said, Kylemore Abbey reported that 300,000 went through its doors last year and I have heard reports that the gates have had to be closed on some days this year due to the numbers coming in. There were 169,000 visitors to the nearby Connemara National Park.

The problem is the road. With the heavy rains and storms last year, the road has deteriorated substantially and people are very concerned about it. The road is in urgent need of an upgrade. The application we put in was not for a new road or for a very wide road. We made a very constrained application because we respected the environmental designations but we also wanted to get the planning through. Unfortunately, the section from Clifden to Maam Cross has been refused and the section from Maam Cross to Oughterard is delayed because the method statements have not been agreed. This project is critical given that tourism is our main industry in the region and it is seasonal. The Clifden arts festival is taking place at the moment and there are huge numbers there but, come November, December, January and February, the area is very quiet. We have no other industry and we are dependent on tourism. We depend on people to use the road to come to visit us as we do not have a train service or an air service. It is critical that the infrastructure be upgraded as soon as possible.

We are here today to get help from the committee. I do not know what the committee can do or where we can go from here, but we are looking for assistance to move the projects forward for the area and for our communities. We want to ensure our children have jobs in order to stay in the area and that they can have access to health services and other services.

Photo of Gerard CraughwellGerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I have one final point on Cavan. Brexit was mentioned, particularly the impact on development in the Blacklion area, where people are unwilling to take a chance and build houses. I have a fear of a hard border being reintroduced, not by us but by governments in Europe that do not understand the unique circumstances of Ireland. Is there quantifiable evidence with respect to the impact of Brexit on that area of north Cavan and south Fermanagh?

Mr. John Paul Feeley:

There is no quantifiable evidence as of yet. Until it actually happens, we will not know what impact it is going to have. However, the reality is that people in the part of Cavan in question naturally gravitate into Enniskillen to do their business. Whether sterling is strong or weak, people in that part of Cavan go into Enniskillen to a greater or lesser extent. We are engaging with Fermanagh and Omagh District Council on an ongoing basis in regard to the Marble Arch Caves geopark. There is a lot of constructive engagement at community level and local authority level where we ignore the fact we are in two different jurisdictions in terms of what we are doing. If a hard border were put in place, all of that would obviously be pulled asunder.

I travel to Cavan town for various reasons a couple of times a week, and I go through Fermanagh without thinking about it. Some years ago, I would not have done that, for different reasons. Many Border roads were closed before the peace process and, thankfully, all of them reopened. We cannot realistically expect all of them to be manned if we go back to a very hard border. Communities had been making up for the poor relations and division which had been imposed as a result of partition and the Troubles, and they were coming to terms with that and getting to know their neighbours again. We are now looking at a scenario where, through no wish of the people on this island, the Border is being reimposed in the worst possible way.

It is also important to put on record that, over the years, the Border has been a blockage to investment and development throughout that region of the country. The PEACE funding put in place was supposed to be additional to expenditure which we might have normally expected from either the Administration north of the Border or from our own Government. In reality, it was used to replace the share we should have been getting to make up for the historic deficiency. We are still living with that historic deficiency.

Mr. Eoin Doyle:

We are hearing directly from tourism providers that business from the North is dropping off and that stays in accommodation in the area are for shorter periods, with people staying for a night or two rather than three or four nights. In general, there is uncertainty about people's investment in tourism and this is permeating into areas like agri-food and microenterprises, where people would have been exporting to Britain. They are finding their lines of credit are being questioned and their own long-term plans are becoming very much short-term plans because they are not thinking long term. The uncertainty is in itself a difficulty. If we have to wait for economic indicators, the difficulty is that they lag a year or 18 months behind reality.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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This is a very important issue. In the coming months, this committee has to address the issues of rural infrastructure, the creation of jobs and the provision of adequate services in rural Ireland. On the infrastructure front, we need to bring fibre to every house and business in rural Ireland. I find it extraordinary that Eir can provide fibre to homes in rural areas, including in the area where I live, which is very rural. This means the total national subsidy needed for fibre is very small. I believe 30 Mbps is ridiculous in this day and age. We need mobile services, we need roads and we need jobs.

I do not intend to focus on that today, however. The initial request for a meeting with this committee came from the Connemara councillors. There is an immediate job to be done. I would like to compliment the councillors and officials from Galway County Council on the rather stark submission they have made available. This committee deals with arts, heritage, rural, regional and Gaeltacht development and affairs. The parent Department is the Department of Regional Development, Rural Affairs, Arts and the Gaeltacht. This comes to the nub of the challenge we face, which has been raised by the councillors from Connemara. It is that the Department which has the responsibility for regional, rural and Gaeltacht affairs - let us remember large parts of the area of Connemara we are talking about are Gaeltacht areas - is the very same Department that is holding up the development of the road to Connemara.

It is a clear responsibility for this committee to try to find out from the Department how it can justify holding up the development of a key piece of infrastructure. This is not for some private person's benefit; it is public infrastructure. The further parts of Connemara are over 100 km from Galway city and we basically have a tarred-over track to the city. Years of work have been put in by various people, including myself, to get it designated under Transport 21 and to get an end-to-end development plan that would provide a road to minimum national standards for national secondary routes.

I read the submission from Galway County Council. I will come shortly to the practical part of what we do now, because it represents great to talk about the challenge but we need solutions to that challenge. Before dealing with that, I would like to say that while we must preserve the natural heritage, there will be bogs and there will be other natural heritage even if that were lost in Connemara.

However, if the Irish language is to die as a community language, it will, since it is not spoken on any other part of this planet as a community language, be gone from the face of the earth forever as a community language. Parts of the areas most synonymous with the most vibrant Gaeltacht communities - Carna, Cill Chiaráin, Rosmuc and Camus - are serviced by this road. It is ironic in 2016, some 100 years since the Rising, and in view of the fact that Pádraic Mac Piarais had his house in Rosmuc, that the Department responsible for heritage and the Gaeltacht cannot seem to strike a balance here.

The second point, which I believe is quite chilling, is that everybody knows that if one builds a road, it is actually better for the ecology, not worse. The run-off from the current road, including from tyres and everything else, goes straight into the local streams and can attack the pearl mussel. The only challenge we face is how to build the road without doing damage. I do not believe it is beyond the wit of engineers to design a system, as fail-safe as any human system can be, that will allow the road to be built without destroying the pearl mussel, in particular.

I am sorry that Mr. Liam Gavin, the director of services, is not sitting at the table because I have a very specific question for him. Can I take it that the council has tried to engage with the Department? The NPWS does not exist as a separate agency. Let us get that out of our head. The Ministers are in charge of the NPWS; it is not an agency. It is an integral part of the Department. They are not separate. Has the council tried in every way to engage with the service to overcome the difficulty in regard to the method statements.

I have a second point that Mr. Gavin might elucidate. I have alluded to the part of the road from Maam Cross to Oughterard. Can Mr. Gavin clarify whether, when there was an oral hearing before An Bord Pleanála on the road from Maam Cross to Clifden, the council went in with a development proposal? The council is acting on behalf of Transport Infrastructure Ireland, which is acting on behalf of the Government, which included the project in Transport 21. In other words, it was fulfilling Government policy. There is only one Government with collective responsibility so it includes the NPWS. Did the Government, in a moment of great schizophrenia through the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, oppose the granting of the planning permission on environmental grounds? Did we have the farce of two Departments acting on behalf of one Government that is meant to have a coherent policy going in to an oral hearing with separate messages, with one saying "Give it" and the other saying "Don't"? Maybe Mr. Gavin could clarify that issue.

Does Mr. Gavin believe it would be a helpful step if this committee were to demand that the Minister and her officials appear before it? We are very lucky we have two western Ministers of State in the Department, including Deputy Seán Kyne, who is responsible for the Gaeltacht. This is very relevant to the latter owing to his devolved responsibility for developing the Gaeltacht.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Only one minute of the ten allowed is remaining. We need to give the witnesses an opportunity to answer questions.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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If there is no time for answering, that is fine. I am sure the witnesses will answer in some context for somebody's question, or somebody else will ask the question for me again.

Would it be helpful if the Minister and two Ministers of State, one of whom is from Mayo and who has rural development responsibilities and the other of whom represents Galway West and has responsibility for the Gaeltacht, were called in to try to explain to us how, in conscience, they can allow this logjam to continue without bringing it to the attention of the Government and without cracking heads together in all the agencies to get an answer? As the witnesses know, we need this road if we are to develop this rural area. The same problem is mirrored throughout the country.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Could Mr. Gavin respond?

Mr. Liam Gavin:

I will be very brief. On the engagement with NPWS, we have submitted seven method statements to it. The first two were agreed eventually after 11 iterations. The second five have not been agreed, despite the fact that we have met the NPWS over seven times.

On the Deputy’s second question, on the opposition to planning permission at the oral hearing in November 2015, he is correct in stating NPWS did provide evidence opposing the construction of the road.

On the third question, that is a matter for-----

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have one supplementary question. Did the Department responsible for the Gaeltacht, which is the same Department, come in supporting the road?

Mr. Liam Gavin:

That is correct.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Not only was there schizophrenia in the totality of government, but Mr. Gavin is telling me that the one Department came in for and against the project in two iterations.

Mr. Liam Gavin:

That is correct.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Gavin.

Mr. Liam Gavin:

On the Deputy's final question, the matter of people appearing before the committee is a matter for the committee itself. The only point I would like to make on that is that robust, positive engagement would be welcome from our point of view in terms of trying to get this project off the ground and moving.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I welcome all the delegates, from Cavan, Connemara and Meath, and thank them for their very well-presented case on the obstacles we are encountering in building roads and trying to survive in our communities. We have many of the same issues in Kerry and are still dealing with them. I will highlight two. One is the Macroom bypass, which is vital to the county and to attract investment to it. As I have already highlighted in the Dáil, it has been denied to us because some environmentalists decided we would affect a snail by building the road. To hurt us further, they called it a Kerry snail. The same scenario was evident, to a lesser degree, in west Kerry, where they tried to prevent us from building the N86 or from providing the people of the area with a proper, safe road. Many people are still being hurt and maimed. Sadly, people were killed in the area in the past. We are encountering those problems also.

The people in rural Ireland, including Kerry, the west coast and midlands, are entitled to live as well as the people of the east coast, including Dublin. When we turn on the 8 o'clock news every morning, we hear 200, 300 or 500 jobs have been secured for Dublin but no job for Kerry. We cannot get a job to Kerry because we cannot attract investors owing to there being no access to the county. Kerry Group has a brand-new facility and it hurts me every time I pass it on the way up to or down from Dublin. It is at the side of the motorway in the heartland of Kildare. I do not begrudge the people of Kildare or Dublin. Maybe there is a bit of "agro" around the third Sunday in September if we are lucky enough to meet in Dublin for the all-Ireland final. We were not in it this year. We did not do well enough in the semi-final, in which we met Dublin.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What about the minor final?

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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That is the only time we bear any grudge against Dublin people. We wish them all the very best. In turn, we are entitled to survive in our communities. Would it help if there were one national design and set of regulations to deal with all the species of nature and nature conservation? It is recognised that the road is needed. It is a matter of people before nature, including insects and snails.

This is about people, and it hurts when young people have to emigrate to Canada and Australia because we do not have any jobs for them in Kerry. The witnesses are being hurt in the same way. In some ways they are emigrating when they come to live in Dublin because they are living three or four hours from home and only travel home two, three or four times a year. We are losing them. Our villages can no longer field teams. Our parish of Kilgarvan does not have a football team now.

To ensure the road will be built, there should be one set of regulations to deal effectively and adequately with nature. I built a road for Coillte 100 m away from the Blackwater river, not the one between Cork Kerry but the one between Kenmare and Sneem. The pearl mussel was an issue at the time we worked on that road but there were ways of dealing with it, and we did not hurt the pearl mussel or affect the river. It should not be an issue. The roads referred to can and must be built, but we want our roads built as well.

The same applies to housing.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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There are only a few minutes left if the Deputy wants an answer.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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We cannot build houses because the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government has four stages in terms of getting approval, and one must climb that ladder. It will not agree to anything sent to it during those stages. It can take months or a year. There should be one design for a four, three, two or one bedroom, and if the money is available, give it to us and let us build them. The same applies to the road.

The witnesses highlighted the issues with nature conservation. In terms of getting the funding, we were in line to get funding for the Macroom bypass in 2007. We have dealt with the issue of the snail. Last year, we were told that we were close to getting funding. We were told the other day that it would be 2022 before we got it. It is a matter of funding but it seems the Minister cannot direct that the funding will be allocated to a particular road, regardless of the pressure. It seems that faceless people in Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII or the National Roads Authority, NRA, make that decision. That should not be the case. Like me, the witnesses are elected representatives. Respectable people from the management of the county council have come in here and they would not be seeking the funding if they did not need it. The Minister or the Government should decide on who gets the funding.

I am sorry for taking up the time of the committee but we are entitled to live in rural Ireland as well as those in the eastern side of the country and if this continues the way it is going, the eastern side of the country will tip into the Irish Sea and we will be facing a disaster.

Mr. Noel Thomas:

I want to let the members know that the Kerry snail, as it is called, has emigrated because it is on the hills beside me. However, wind turbines are being constructed and they are being collected in bags and brought down to Deputy Healy-Rae in Kerry.

The question was about the national position. One of our recommendations relates to a national policy on the design and construction of infrastructure in designated sites. That might work to our advantage or to our disadvantage. If it was designed on the basis of the way they got the work done on the greenway in Mayo, I would be agreeable because it would work for others as well. However, it could work either way and we would not know until a policy was brought forward. If a policy was brought forward in that respect, it would want to be done fairly and with a good deal of thought put into it in terms of how it will affect the rural communities.

I come from a construction background and there is no doubt in my mind that all this work can be carried out without any damage to these snails, birds or whatever else. I have seen it done in the past. I have seen areas that have improved, not deteriorated, following construction work, so it can be done.

Mr. Tom Healy:

To quote from an old comedy, the reason the urban middle class is so concerned about the environment is because they do not have to live in it.

To come back to the key issues, another problem mentioned was that it is not just central authority but how we engage with Europe. There is a term in marketing "fear, uncertainty and doubt" that is used in instances where someone will discourage their competitors by sowing the seeds of doubt with their customers. That is what is happening here. The seeds of doubt are being sown in the minds of those in the environmental sector and the National Parks and Wildlife Service that this project might be too risky in terms of the pearl mussel. With fear, uncertainty and doubt we have no means by which we can assess the risk to determine whether the project can proceed.

Galway County Council has engaged international engineering consultants to make the point that this can be done in a manner that is safe and will not harm the environment. Deputy Ó Cuív stated that this will be better for the environment in Connemara in that drainage on the M59 is uncontrolled. As soon as we do the work on this road, we will get the drainage under control. That means that in terms of accidents involving deposits such as oil or any harmful chemicals, they will not enter the ecological system.

Photo of Maura HopkinsMaura Hopkins (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their contributions. This is a constructive discussion because we are passionate about rural areas. Coming from a rural area, I want to see more young people return to live in rural areas.

I seek commentary on a number of issues. First, on the question of tourism, I live in the midlands and I am frustrated with regard to the interaction with the major tourism agencies. Our region has huge potential in terms of the Shannon blueway, the lakelands and various important heritage sites. The Wild Atlantic Way and the Ancient East initiatives have been hugely successful and should be promoted even further, but it is important that we look to other areas with equal potential that need support also. The witnesses might give their views on that.

Second, on rural infrastructure, much has been discussed within the context of road infrastructure, particularly with regard to the M59 and the link between Galway city and Clifden. We want to focus on solutions and even in terms of concluding this session, I hope the committee will discuss the way we can support the witnesses to progress those. The National Parks and Wildlife Service must provide answers with regard to the delay, and this committee must determine how we can get answers from it, and also from the Minister and the Department, to fully understand the delays and the solutions that can be put in place.

Third, with regard to jobs and broadband provision, as a new Senator I am frustrated at times because I have not seen all our enterprise agencies, such as Enterprise Ireland, the Western Development Commission and the local enterprise offices, being properly supported to target areas of disadvantage. Some €10 million was raised earlier in terms of the town and village renewal scheme but that is a small amount of money when distributed across the country.

We need a bigger focus on how to target supports, particularly funding supports, to towns and villages. We can name those places off the top of our heads, but we need to direct better support to them. I thank the witnesses for all their contributions and would like to hear their thoughts on how we could do that.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps Councillor David Gilroy and Councillor Johnny Guirke could respond to those points giving their own perspectives.

Mr. David Gilroy:

This alludes to the previous question, but there appears to be no silver bullet to resolve all those issues. The diversity of problems that affect rural Ireland is demonstrated here. There are six people sitting at this table representing three local municipal areas. An issue that exists within one of them has almost the exact mirror image in the Kells municipal district. For example, there is large scale development involving wind turbines and pylons. The National Parks and Wildlife Service, as well as environmental elements and the impact on tourism are being used as a mechanism to deflect such developments. The perception, however, is that the roadblocks to development are exactly the same agencies. Therefore the diversity at this table reflects the diversity across rural Ireland.

Ireland's Ancient East is a fantastic tourism initiative which is driven in a broad sense. It is also in more regionalised areas such as Boyne Valley tourism in County Meath and County Louth. There are similar agencies across the midlands. There are many things that rural Ireland can do, and is doing, for itself.

We are seeking help, funding and support. Individual parish matters, such as local roads are fine, but we need to discuss how rural Ireland can be seriously considered by people such as those present here. Local people know the stretch of road where drivers can overtake. We are here to express our concerns and ultimately to get more financial support.

Mr. Johnny Guirke:

Councillor Seán Drew hit on it earlier: the biggest problem facing people in our area is that Meath County Council has the lowest funding in Ireland. If we got the national average it would make a difference of up to €10 million for people in Meath. We cannot afford to do without this money. In 2014, Teagasc did a report on 302 towns. Oldcastle came in as the eleventh poorest town in Ireland, while Athboy was 20th and Kells 74th. This survey was based on infrastructure, jobs, emigration, education and health facilities. People living in cul-de-sacs in the north Meath area will not see roads improved for years, given the amount of funding we currently have. I am not saying this because we are here today, it is the truth. Elderly and disabled people cannot walk on these roads because there are craters outside the door.

The north Meath area needs money. Towns like Kells, Athboy and Oldcastle require stimulus packages so money can be directly invested to get them out of poverty. The committee can help by pushing those matters for us.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Does Senator Hopkins wish to come in briefly or is she happy enough?

Photo of Maura HopkinsMaura Hopkins (Fine Gael)
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No, that is fine.

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I want to welcome the councillors from Cavan, Connemara and Meath. Unfortunately, it was too far for the councillors from the west Cork municipal district to make it here. I listened to Councillor Mannion speaking about roads, hospitals and schools. Her comments replicate the concerns of the west Cork municipal district. We have a serious situation with the N71, one of the main routes into west Cork, as there has been no investment whatsoever. The same applies to the R586.

It is a well known fact throughout west Cork that a businessman was willing to invest and provide employment in west Cork. He flew into Cork airport and went as far as Innishannon but turned back because of the bottleneck. He said it was impossible to do business in west Cork.

That is sad for us because we are very much dependent on tourism. I spent a number of years as a councillor and have now started my tenure in the Dáil. I would like to know who Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, is answerable to. I do not think it is answerable to councillors and it looks like it is not answerable to Dáil Deputies either, so is the TII a law unto itself? What is going on?

I specifically requested that TII representatives should attend the committee to provide us with answers. Then at least the councillors would leave here with some clarity as to what might or can be done. Rural Ireland has no trains, planes or Luas. We have been forgotten and there was a clear lack of understanding by previous governments of issues concerning rural Ireland.

I hope this committee, albeit in its infancy, can seek a way forward for these people and their communities. Their concerns are replicated throughout rural Ireland. If we can be of any help to the councillors, I can assure them that we will not be found wanting. The fact that municipal district representatives are here to put their case is proof that this committee wants their voices to be heard.

This committee should bring the TII to task on the issues that have been mentioned as well as issues raised by other municipal districts. We need answers. There is no point in our being elected to the Oireachtas if we cannot get answers for people.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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There is a feeling sometimes when one has these discussions that it is one section of the country pitted against another, such as the east coast versus the west. However, having heard the figures that Councillor Guirke cited, it is not quite as clear-cut as that. Meath County Council has the lowest per capitaincome, expenditure and staff in the State. A number of things need to come out of this. Investment should take existing population levels into consideration. There should also be some disruptive element to the processes occurring within the State. As we see it, there is an over-concentration in certain urban areas on the east coast to the detriment of other areas of the country. To fix that one needs to disrupt it, which means identifying infrastructural investments that are not exactly population related. That means planning investment and infrastructure for a population it is hoped will exist in five, ten, 15 or 20 years' time. That is key regarding areas in Meath.

What level of engagement have the witnesses had with the State regarding the development of the spatial plan? The last spatial plan was in 2002, but not much heed has been paid to it in the past seven years as far as I can see. Departments are coming to some level of completion on the spatial plan, so I wanted to see what level of engagement there is from elected representatives and officials for those three local areas. Have they had their say or made submissions? How do they feel the spatial plan must develop?

Mr. Tom Healy:

I will first address Deputy Michael Collins's question regarding the TII as a central authority. This ties into spatial planning also because a number of years ago there was a study of national secondary roads needs. In fairness, the TII and authorities like it have identified the infrastructure in need of upgrading and improvement. From our perspective funding is not necessarily an issue, but we have come into conflict with various Departments, as was mentioned earlier. This comes back to spatial planning.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Hold on there, le do thoil.

Mr. Tom Healy:

Modern-outlook regional development holds that regional cities tie into and support the surrounding areas, helping them to grow. However, if the surrounding areas do not have good connections into that hub, the growth simply will not happen.

To address the earlier question on the development authorities, in the 1980s the IDA, when it still dealt with development in local communities, located a factory in Clifden and Oughterard. Back in those days it took five hours to get to Dublin before one could even leave the country. Those factories are still there. Today, one can reach the M6 motorway network from Galway city, which links one to the European motorway network. We are now more integrated into the Single Market but we are not getting any new factories, even though it is a lot easier to access markets. That says it all in terms of regional development.

Mr. John Paul Feeley:

In Cavan, we have had no interaction regarding the spatial strategy-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Is there no interaction at all?

Mr. John Paul Feeley:

No, not at official level or as elected representatives. That says a great deal.

I wish to refer back to a number of points that were made earlier. In terms of issues such as environmental designations and so forth, there is a contradictory approach in that one cannot do so many different things and, yet, in terms of protecting our environment and rural communities, one can come along and plant acre after acre with little or no regulation and certainly with no consultation with the local community. There is a need to put a fair planning system in place-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Feeley referring to forestry?

Mr. John Paul Feeley:

Yes, I am referring to afforestation and the effect it is having on the environment and on rural communities.

On the issue of rural development and practical ideas, if there were targeted tax incentives for the regeneration of buildings that are already there and to bring empty, vacant units and houses in small villages back into use, such a move would be beneficial if done properly. The problem in the past was that it was allowed to grow out of all proportion but there are certainly targeted measures that could be taken.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the representatives from Meath to outline their experience with the spatial planners.

Mr. Eugene Cassidy:

I will let Barry Lynch answer that but I would like to raise an issue specific to Meath which is, after all, in the greater Dublin area. While Meath is one county, it is, to all intents and purposes, divided in two. The south of the county has more in common with Dublin, while the north of the county has more in common with Cavan. In the south of the county, Shire and Facebook set up operations in the past year or so. That is great, but companies such as those to which I refer are never going to establish facilities in the north of the county. This gives rise to conflict as regards funding in areas like Kells and the rest of the county north of Navan because while that part of the county is 100% rural, it is deemed to be part of the greater Dublin area because it is in Meath. The north is the poor part of the county and Kells, for example, will never be an Ashbourne, a Ratoath or a Navan. That is a major issue that must be addressed going forward. The north will never have a Shire or a Facebook but it needs to look to its strengths, which are heritage and tourism. That is what it should be focusing on and pushing.

I have been working on a greenway project for the past six years. The greenway in Mayo was mentioned but I have been working on the 36 km Boyne Valley to Lakelands County Greenway, which will actually come into Kingscourt. A feasibility report has been done, full planning permission has been granted, the detailed design statement is done and the tender documents for the first phase have been prepared. The business case shows that the greenway will cost €2.4 million but will generate €5.9 million in the local economy per annum. That business case was not pulled out of the blue but is the same as that used for the Great Western Greenway, based on a 20 km radius of the greenway and 245,000 people. The business case did not take into consideration Meath's close proximity to Dublin because the aim was to compare like with like. In terms of the strengths of the north of the county, tourism is the main one. This greenway could be a game changer for north Meath as well as Cavan.

I will let Mr. Barry Lynch respond to the question on spatial planning.

Mr. Barry Lynch:

Our experience in terms of engagement on the spatial strategy would be similar to that in Cavan. There has not been a whole lot of engagement. The points about underfunding and the requirement for investment have been very well made by others. The submission we made to the committee was drawn from an OECD study of north Meath and highlights the main issues very well. Many of the problems will only be solved by investment.

To refer back to roads, Meath, like every other county, has suffered a very significant reduction in funding in recent years. We are now getting approximately €12 million per year for local and regional roads but all that will do is maintain the roads in their current state. At a top level, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport appears not to have enough money to maintain the road network to the required standard, and with the current financial constraints, it will be 2020 before adequate funding will be available. Kells has a particular difficulty because it has one third of the roads in the county, that is, 1,100 km of road which has to be maintained. Those roads are of great importance because they are vital in terms of allowing people to get out to participate in commerce and so forth.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Just to clarify, there has been no contact between Meath County Council and the Department on spatial planning. Is that correct?

Mr. Barry Lynch:

I would have to consult my colleagues in the planning section to confirm that but-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Lynch is not aware of any contact.

Mr. Barry Lynch:

No, I am not personally aware of any contact but I can check that for the committee.

Mr. Liam Gavin:

On the national spatial strategy, Galway County Council reviewed its development plan recently. As part of that review, there was engagement with the Department on the national spatial strategy. The council would have taken into account the actual spatial strategy as it has been set out and would have taken on board the idea that Galway city is a gateway and Tuam is a hub as part of that. That is reflected in the county development plan. There was engagement with the elected members through the strategic policy committee, SPC, in Galway on the spatial strategy and the development plan.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I have a question for Ms Galligan on the spatial strategy and also on another issue which is hugely important, not just for Cavan but nationally, namely, the east-west link road. This could open up an enormous stretch of this island and could have hugely positive implications. Ms Galligan, as a senior planner, has been at the coalface of development and planning and is hugely cognisant of the importance of attracting industry to the county. What is the position regarding the east-west link road? What can this committee do to further that development? During my time on the council, it was talked about continually and plans were drawn and redrawn. What is the current position and is there anything we can do to move it along?

Ms Marice Galligan:

That question should probably be addressed to Mr. Jennings, but I will deal with it from a planning point of view. The east-west link road will link the east of the county to the west, going through Cavan town and Cootehill, and has been in the county development plan for a number of years. It is considered to be a strategic link which is very important for communities and for rural development in the county. It is high on our list of priorities and that has not wavered. I will let Mr. Jennings deal with the question of its progress.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Before Mr. Jennings responds, I would also like to pose a question. I submitted a parliamentary question to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport on plans for a Sligo to Dundalk road that would go through Cavan. His response was that there were no plans for such a road.

Mr. Brendan Jennings:

I am the senior engineer in roads. In reference to the east-west scheme, we have been working with a number of counties, from Sligo right across to Dundalk in Louth on the development of that project. We have focused in particular, with Monaghan and Louth county councils, on the section from Cavan to Dundalk, which goes through an area of east Cavan that is not well served with roads, as well as south Monaghan and into County Louth.

The scheme is funded by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and heavily resourced by Cavan County Council, as well as Monaghan and Louth county councils. We have developed it as far as the preliminary design stage but it has been halted at that stage, primarily due to funding. This is a major issue for us, particularly in east County Cavan because it is highly dependent on the regional road network and is not served by any national roads. The local road network is in a very poor state of repair and the area is neglected, as is the adjacent area in County Meath. Funding seems to be the critical element. We got the project to a certain stage but it is now suspended. Developing regional plans for Baileborough, Shercock and Cootehill and into counties Monaghan and Louth is critical to the development of the region.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the implications of this development, which appear self-evident, would it be fair to conclude that the project could open up the entire region?

Mr. Brendan Jennings:

Yes, that is correct. The position is no different from the position in Clifden in that we are very much dependent on the rural road network. Cavan does not have any other forms of transport. The public transport network is limited, and while buses are available, the county does not have a rail network and the area in question has a limited public transport network. People need a car to travel anywhere and the roads are in a poor state of repair. Funding has declined significantly since 2009 and probably continues to decline. We are only now seeing the impact of this decline on the road network. The lifespan of any particular road, depending on how it is designed and constructed, is seven years. The impact of this lack of funding will be seen in the next five years and it will cause suffering. These areas are dependent on the road network, and ongoing development and funding are critical issues.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The committee needs to discuss the issue of spatial planning. The prevailing view of planning is highly urban centred and is based on the spillover theory that if one keeps developing towns, rural areas will eventually benefit by some great process. Oldcastle in County Meath and the Cooley Peninsula on the east coast were CLÁR areas, in other words, areas that experienced a substantial decline in population from the 1920s onwards. Given their proximity to Dublin, the spillover theory is clearly not working.

The simple explanation is that most people do not travel for more than 40 or 45 minutes in a car from their place of work to their place of residence. This is to be seen in Galway where one comes off the cliff, so to speak, beyond Loughrea. I take serious issue with planners who believe the entire west will be developed as a result of development in Galway city. The process does not work that way. On the contrary, what we saw in the most recent census was a complete reverse of the previous trend of rural population growth. We are now seeing a collapse in population in areas located more than a certain travel time from the city. In this regard, distance is crucial but it must be measured in terms of time rather than physical distance. Road infrastructure is very important in this regard and if we fail to address it, areas such as east Galway and west Connemara will be in a very bad way.

I take slight issue with the Chairman in that I disagree with the notion of allocating money on the basis of population. We had a tradition whereby certain things were a fundamental right of the citizen and other things were the fundamental right of the community. During the Second World War, a decision was made to provide every house with electricity, whether it was on top of a mountain or near a town. It was also decided to provide a State-wide telephone service. While the service was slow, people had access to a landline.

The committee should lay out a national typology of basic services to which every household is entitled. This includes a roadway to one's house and access to water, electricity, fibre broadband and a mobile telephone service. Every community also has a right to basic services, including education and health. Obviously, one must decide what level of education and health services would be provided and how local they should be. Sports facilities and so on also need to be provided locally and population should not be an inhibitor.

I had ministerial responsibility for the islands. While it may be an extreme case, we found that we could provide very small islands with the basic services a community would expect to facilitate a decent community life.

I take issue with another point that was made. Having been responsible for creating jobs in rural areas, I am of the view that it is as easy to create jobs in such areas as it is to create them in urban areas, provided one takes the right approach. Some of the most successful businesses derive from rural areas. All of the multinational, indigenous co-operative industries - the major milk companies and so forth - can be traced back more than 100 years ago to Horace Plunkett. These are some of our most advanced indigenous industries and they are rooted to this island. If one takes job years as a measure, they are very important companies. Rural areas have significant potential for further job creation but this will not be possible without infrastructure. I remember when I moved to Connemara to become a manager of a co-operative that it took me a year and a half to obtain a telephone. We struggled against the odds and succeeded. I realised then that a lack of simple infrastructure was a serious inhibitor to job creation. Basic things that people take for granted were the problem, rather than anything in the local area.

I am proud that a high volume of timber lorries forced the county council to replace virtually every bridge in the area because they collapsed under the weight of those vehicles. This occurred long before Mr. Gavin's time and I have no compunction in stating it was one of my greatest achievements because it resulted in all the roads being straightened and all the bridges being replaced. Basic infrastructure is needed. I started at a small level. Other people took over to much greater effect and there is now an industry that directly and indirectly employs 300 people in the middle of what people would describe as the back of beyond.

It would not be in the interests of my native city, Dublin, to concentrate all development in cities because we have serious social problems in our cities. People are being sucked out of rural areas and when they arrive in the capital they cannot secure housing or move around the city because of the traffic. The quality of life in Dublin is suffering because of excessive congestion. In other parts of the country, the problem is that there are not enough children for the local schools and not enough people to use health centres and so on. These areas need more people.

It is vital that the committee has a conversation, as the President would describe it, about this major national policy area. We should discuss what direction we should take, whether every area, irrespective of population numbers, has a right to a certain level of service and if every area also has significant potential for development. I believe that is the case and that, if one had a mind to it, there is not a part of the country where it would not be possible to generate considerable development with support.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy may have misunderstood my point, which was that funding should reflect population but also have a disruptive effect. In other words, it should be focused on areas without large populations to effect change.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I should explain that while I am not a member of the committee, all Members of the Oireachtas have a right to attend and speak at committee meetings. I was listening to the proceedings before I joined the meeting. This is an excellent exercise as it gives councillors and local authority officials an opportunity to discuss openly what difficulties they are experiencing with national government. I believe something good will come of this meeting.

I am familiar with the position in respect of the road to Clifden, which I used when I was a member - and subsequently chairman - of a health board. It is surprising to learn it has taken so long to reach this stage. If nothing else comes of today's meeting, we should at least get Departments to co-operate. That one Department is fighting another regarding what Galway County Council and people in Galway want to achieve suggests a terribly dysfunctional relationship. I intend to visit Inishbofin shortly. It takes two hours to travel from Galway to Clifden, after which one still must drive to Cleggan. It is a dangerous road and can be lethal at night. One must be a good driver to use it.

From the point of view of tourism, a road is needed in the area. The national primary route through Roscommon is in a diabolical condition. In that regard, archaeological problems have arisen in Rathcroghan. I have noted all of the areas mentioned in counties Meath and Cavan.

During the Fianna Fáil think-in in Carlow the issue of Brexit was discussed. The British Government, the Irish Government and the European Union do not know what the consequences of Brexit will be, but it will be very disruptive from an economic point of view and is a matter that should be of concern to us all. We will all have a role to play in facing up to what will happen when the United Kingdom moves to commence its exit from the European Union. Brexit is a factor in the development of the regions.

This is an excellent exercise. Councillors are busy people in pursuing their own livelihoods and responsibilities. I welcome the tremendous turnout. As an observer, the contributions were worthwhile in the context of the development of the regions and the country as a whole.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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This is a hugely important issue. As a committee, one of the biggest issues we will deal with during the lifetime of the Government is that of regional and rural development and spatial planning. We will reflect on all of the issues referred to specifically by the delegates to see how we can best effect change, be it through putting pressure on the Minister or the specific agencies identified by them.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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There is one matter on which the committee could make a decision before we adjourn. We could agree that the Minister for Regional Development, Rural Affairs, Arts and the Gaeltacht and the two Ministers of State at that Department and relevant departmental officials should be asked to appear before the committee to address the matter of the N59 project which is within the compass of the committee and relevant to the Department. I make that proposal.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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We can discuss the Deputy's proposal during private session.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Before we go into private session, I propose that the issue of a east-west link form part of Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív's proposal as it would open up access to all regions. It, too, is a national issue and it is important that it be addressed.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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The committee will not focus on a particular area. We can address individual issues after we have addressed State-wide problems. Míle buíochas agus slán abhaile.

The joint committee went into private session at 5.05 p.m. and adjourned at 5.25 p.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 September 2016.