Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Tuesday, 5 July 2016

Select Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government

Business of Select Committee

2:00 pm

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I propose to respond to the issue raised by Deputies Ó Broin and Coppinger on the expert commission. I spoke to the chair of the commission today and yesterday and I am aware of some commentary and criticism made of a media interview he did and his personal views on water. The chair of the commission will make a personal statement on that issue later this afternoon and I would appreciate if members gave him the time and space to do so.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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When the Minister introduced Second Stage of the Bill he made clear that the intention of the expert commission was to try to take the heat out of the debate and enable us, to use the Minister's words, to have a rational conversation about it. Many of us were sceptical about the intention of the commission but were willing to take the Minister at his word. Having said that, the fact that some of us took the time to submit detailed proposed amendments to the terms of reference and did not even receive a formal response from the Minister's office suggests we may not have been right to take him at his word.

What most concerns me about Mr. Joe O'Toole's comments is not that he has personal views - he is entitled to his views and the Minister could not have appointed a person resident in this State who did not have views on the matter. - but that Mr. O'Toole, in his Newstalk interview, made a particular comment which amounted to much more than his personal view on the issue of water. Speaking on the commission and the job the Minister has given him, he stated:

It is a political exercise. It is a democratic exercise. The reality is we are trying to resolve a problem which has emerged from the democratic process. People have voted in a certain way. Leinster House is not prepared to grasp that particular nettle so we have to find a solution that will have enough sugar on it to make the medicine go down easily.

My interpretation of Mr. O'Toole's remarks is that he has acknowledged that a majority of the Deputies elected in the general election want to abolish water charges but the purpose of the commission as he, its chairperson, understands it, is to continue some form of charge by putting enough sugar on it to allow the Dáil, which technically has a majority against water charges, to swallow it, in other words, to vote in favour of a water charge. If that is his understanding of his job as the chair of the commission, it is deeply disturbing. While I am not asking the Minister to interpret what Mr. O'Toole meant by his remarks, I believe the meaning is clear. My concern, therefore, is not that the chairman has a particular view but that he is describing his understanding of his function of chairing the expert commission as one of identifying how to get water charges through the Dáil, albeit in a different form.

I have two questions for the Minister. Is this is an appropriate way for the chairman to describe his role and that of the expert commission? Is it the Minister's view that the chairman's position is tenable? While I was willing to give Mr. O'Toole the benefit of the doubt - I did not call for him to resign yesterday but asked that he withdraw the comment he made - the comments he made this morning and this afternoon have made matters worse. If it was the Minister's intention to take the heat out of this issue, unfortunately the person he appointed as chairman of the expert commission has done the opposite. This has undermined any confidence among those of us who are sceptical but want to be constructive and engage with the commission that this is genuinely an independent and impartial exercise. I am interested in hearing the Minister's response to those two specific questions.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I do not propose to get into a long debate on this issue.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I would like to comment.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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In that case, I will respond to both Deputies together.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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This is a serious issue because the impression given by the new coalition was that an independent commission had been established with an independent chair. People can have personal views and, as the Minister stated, we all have personal views on issues. However, the chairman, in advance of the commission's establishment, has expressed strong views that are opinionated and biased in the sense of being very much on one side of the argument. How can anyone interpret his words in any other way? He stated:

People voted in a certain way. Leinster House is not prepared to grasp that particular nettle so we have to find a solution that will have enough sugar on it to make the medicine go down easily.

I understood this to mean the Dáil is not prepared to recognise that 70% of Deputies were elected on an anti-water charges platform. I assume that making the medicine go down means the continuation of water charges. Does the Minister propose to allow a person who believed it was in order to express these views to chair the commission? Mr. O'Toole has given his honest views but if the Minister expects anybody to take the so-called new politics seriously, Mr. O'Toole must go. I am also putting it up to Fianna Fáil that it needs to make this clear because its support is the other leg of the table in this arrangement. Regardless of what spin is put on this issue, nobody can unsay what Mr. O'Toole said. He is completely biased and wants water charges to be maintained by making them more palatable.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We agreed terms of reference for the commission when we put together, with Fianna Fáil, a confidence and supply agreement on the commission. To be fair, the idea that we will now start debating and changing the terms of reference is not a reasonable request. We made the purpose of the commission clear. A group of people with considerable knowledge of issues related to water, including charging and conservation, would examine all the issues in an informed manner, produce a report and make recommendations. We then indicated that a committee would take these recommendations but would not be bound by them, although I presume the committee's work would be guided by the detail of the report produced by the commission. The committee will make its own judgment on what is appropriate and fair and what should be put before the Dáil and Seanad to be voted on. That is how the commission will work.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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When the Minister published the terms of reference of the commission the Department's press release described them as draft terms of reference. For this reason, many of us took time to submit amendments to the Minister.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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To be fair, I never said I would change or amend the terms of reference. Once they were agreed between two party leaders, they would not be undone. I would not like to give an impression that I ever said it would be otherwise because I did not do so. I have been up-front about the commission. I have seen some commentary on some websites and on social media about some of the members of the expert commission.

It is deeply unfair, in terms of their role and willingness to be helpful to Ireland. The people include a lead expert in the Environmental Directorate of the OECD, the chair of the customer forum of Water Scotland, a former Scottish Minister, the chair of the Northern Ireland Utility Regulator, the chair of the National Federation of Group Water Schemes, NFGWS, an academic lawyer specialising in water and environmental law from the University of Dundee in Scotland and a strategy consultant from Waternet in the Netherlands. While I do not know her, she comes highly recommended for her knowledge. Dr. Andrew Kelly is an environmental economist who is highly thought of in Ireland.

These people are the best experts in the area we could find. We searched high and low to get names. Some of them were recommended by other political parties. I also sought and followed advice from the Institute of Public Administration and the National Economic and Social Forum on the kind of skill set we would need on an expert commission, the number on the commission and the balance of Irish and international expertise. I do not know any of these people, except Brendan O'Mahony, the chair of the NFGWS, whom I met as a Minister when he was representing group water schemes. I have had no conversation with him about this. We have looked to others to make recommendations and tried to pick from those and choose other skill sets in a way that is consistent with the independent guidance we got.

Mr. Joe O'Toole is a very fine person. I have known him on and off for many years. We come from different political persuasions, and this is one of the reasons I asked him to do this. I did not want a Fine Gael person, or the perception of a Fine Gael person. Mr. O'Toole has given much leadership through the trade union movement. He was a very talented Senator and parliamentarian when he was here. He has buckets of experience in handling difficult issues. This is why I asked him to do the job, to try to pull together all of these experts and to have a political input into the process and ensure the political sensitivities were understood in the context of any recommendations they might make. I thought Mr. O'Toole would be a very good person to do it.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister still think he is a very good person to do it?

Photo of Maria BaileyMaria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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That is an unfair question.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It is a very important question to answer.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will answer it in a roundabout way. I have spoken to Mr. O'Toole about the criticism that has come his way during the past 24 hours in particular. He is reflecting on it and has asked for some time and space to make a personal statement in response to it. I would like to give him that courtesy.

Photo of Maria BaileyMaria Bailey (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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To allow that time and space, we will conclude the meeting. I thank the Minister, his officials and the members for attending and we look forward to our next meeting.

The select committee adjourned at 3.05 p.m. sine die.