John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will now deal with the first item on the agenda, which is consideration of the Revised Estimates for 2016 from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Vote 13 - Office of Public Works. The Dáil ordered on 16 June that the Revised Estimates be referred to this committee for consideration. I welcome the Minister of State to the meeting and invite him to make his opening statement.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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As Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform with special responsibility for the Office of Public Works, OPW, and flood relief , I am pleased to be here today to consider the 2016 Estimate and undertake a mid-year review of outputs and expenditure relating to the OPW Vote for the current financial year. I will also summarise the OPW’s emerging position on the 2017 Estimate requirements in advance of the allocations being finalised for budget 2017.

In order to assist the committee, members have been provided with an explanatory note setting out a short description of the spend areas in the OPW Vote, expenditure incurred to date on subheads in 2016, output information relating to each spending area and the emerging Estimate requirements for 2017.

Expenditure to the end of May 2016 is €128.984 million out of a total allocation of €391.526 million this year. This represents 34% of the gross current allocation and 30% of the capital allocation to date which is an expenditure trend consistent with previous years. While there is some variance from profiled spend on a subhead basis, the two main programmes of expenditure are projected to be on target by year end. Some reallocation of funds on the estate portfolio management side may be necessary to facilitate strategic property acquisitions in 2016.

In terms of 2017 requirements, my officials have confirmed to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform that the Vote 13 allocation is deemed sufficient to fulfil the existing level of service commitments on a no-policy-change basis. This confirmation is subject to allocation adjustments on a subhead basis being made within the overall OPW Vote allocation. In particular, an increase on the current allocation will be required to ensure the resources are in place for the delivery of the flood risk management programme within the ten year timeframe committed to by the Government. I am particularly determined that the delivery of this programme is prioritised in the coming years. Additional projects or services from within the programme for partnership Government or on foot of other policy initiatives will be separately resourced. Some of these proposals are under discussion with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform as part of the Estimates process.

The OPW Vote has two main expenditure areas which may be impacted by policy changes, the first of which is flood risk management. The Government has demonstrated its support for flood relief by committing €430 million to flood risk management within the 2016 to 2021 capital investment plan. I am satisfied that this represents sufficient funding to progress flood protection works and the OPW is currently undertaking the required staff recruitment programme to ensure the capacity is in place to facilitate its delivery. I do not need to revisit the difficulties caused by flooding which have recently been experienced by communities across the country, including in Roscommon in the last week. However, I can assure the committee that the key actions and activities necessary to protect communities from flood risk in the years ahead are being addressed not just in the OPW, but across all State bodies with a role to play in flood protection.

In terms of output to date in 2016, progress on flood risk management continues to be a challenge for the OPW. Long lead-in times to bring these complex engineering infrastructure projects to commencement stage are necessary.

Unforeseen technical design issues, archeological and environmental difficulties, public consultation and procurement challenges are elements which can impact on the delivery timeframe. Despite this, I have asked my officials to explore every avenue possible to advance schemes as quickly as possible and I am confident the target outputs and expenditure projections for 2016 are set to be delivered.

In terms of output measurement, the key purpose of this programme is to ensure that the risks associated with flooding and the impacts identified in climate change are considered and appropriate plans to investigate flood risk are put in place. The overall outcome is to reduce the risk of river and coastal flooding to homes and businesses and to ensure appropriate flood risk information for planning in Ireland. The setting of demonstrative performance targets in this area is difficult but is currently being summarised under two outcome measures: the annual and cumulative number of additional properties benefiting from flood relief works; and the annual and cumulative value of benefit to properties - damage or loss avoided in economic terms.

It can be reported that schemes are continuing at Claregalway, Bray and on the River Dodder and this year will see the completion of the schemes at Ennis lower, Waterford and south Campshires in Dublin. Contracts have recently been placed for works to commence at Bandon and Skibbereen and I am pleased that works will commence this year at Templemore in Tipperary, Foynes in Limerick and Dunkellin in County Galway.

In terms of progress not covered by tangible output measures, there has also been recent progress on other fronts. The interdepartmental flood policy co-ordination group has a significant role to play in a whole of government approach to addressing flood risk. One of my first and early tasks was to convene a further meeting of the interdepartmental flood policy co-ordination group, which was held on 2 June 2016 to get an update on the progress being made towards a report for Government on a range of flood risk management initiatives. This group is looking at a range of policy issues, including insurance, community resilience, individual property protection, a national flood forecasting and warning service, a review of the planning and development guidelines and if necessary, voluntary home relocation. I will be finalising the report of the group for Government shortly, in conjunction with the completion of the draft flood risk management plans.

The Government has also established the Shannon flood risk State agency co-ordination working group to enhance co-operation across the State agencies with a statutory remit on the River Shannon. This group is comprised of the State agencies involved with the River Shannon and comes under the chairmanship of the Office of Public Works. The group has met on three occasions to date and has conducted an audit of the roles and responsibilities of State agency organisations and has published its Shannon flood risk work programme for 2016. This programme, which is available on the OPW website, sets out co-ordinated actions and activities for the Shannon catchment. The group has agreed a process for wider consultation, including with non-statutory bodies, and has held a series of open days on the group's work programme. The group is also considering the development of appropriate guidance in consultation with the Attorney General's office that will set out more clearly the rights and responsibilities of non-statutory bodies in relation to watercourses. The working group will hold its next meeting in July to consider the Shannon catchment flood risk assessment management, CFRAM, plans.

The CFRAM programme has produced a comprehensive suite of flood maps for each area for further assessment, AFA, which identifies the risk in those areas for flooding events of varying severity, ranging from frequent events, such as those we might see every couple of years, up to extreme events that might not be seen for generations. The programme is now looking at all possible options to address flood risk in each AFA and, where possible, has identified viable structural and non-structural flood risk management measures to manage or reduce the flood risk within the AFAs and within each river catchment as a whole. The identified measures will form the basis of a series of flood risk management plans which set out the medium to long-term strategy and programme of work to achieve the effective and sustainable management of flood risk in Ireland.

The flood maps will contribute directly to the better management of flood risk. These maps have been produced for 300 communities around the country covering 90 coastal areas and nearly 7,000 km of river. Over the coming months the CFRAM programme will publish the draft flood risk management plans with a formal consultation period of not less than three months; complete a further round of public consultation days within the relevant communities to consult locally on the proposals; and prioritise the preferred measures, informed through a multi-criteria analysis, in order to finalise the plans at the end of 2016.

The final plans will then be submitted for approval to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and may then be adopted by the local authorities. It has to be recognised and understood that there will not be a feasible flood risk solution for all properties and the policy response for these properties has to form part of the integrated flood risk policy.

I am confident that the Government's strategy of implementing this suite of measures to manage flood risk will better prepare Ireland to manage the threat of flooding in the future.

The other main programme for my office is estate portfolio management which encompasses the management, maintenance and development of the State's property portfolio. This includes the conservation, protection and presentation of national monuments and national historic properties in State care.

The Office of Public Works has rationalised the State's office accommodation portfolio to reflect the changing numbers in the Civil Service since 2008, surrendering over 300 leases with cumulative savings of over €130 million in that period. With rents now rising, particularly in Dublin, and the demands for accommodation increasing, there are mounting challenges in the rationalisation of properties.

A more strategic approach to the management of State property is being led by my office requiring all State property holders to view public property from a State perspective. The actions identified in the property asset management delivery plan are being achieved through improved co-ordination of property asset management across the public service; increasing the capacity to benchmark building performance through standardised building measurement; and optimising the use of the State's property assets through asset sharing and asset transfer using streamlined protocols.

The OPW continues to meet space requirements through office rationalisation and greater use of open plan, but additional space demands can only be delivered through a combination of the following: new leases of modern offices, investment in older State-owned properties, or the purchase or construction of alternative accommodation.

In order to ensure that the office is well positioned to effectively oversee this ongoing reform area, my officials are currently engaged in a business transformation process on the estate portfolio management function which may impact on 2017 Estimate requirements.

In terms of annual funding, A Programme for a Partnership Government sets out objectives that may generate increased demand for Civil Service office accommodation. There are a number of major developments in planning within this office which will not form part of the existing level of service and these will need to be considered for future years' funding. In addition, the office has commenced planning a substantive body of works over the next five years under a property retrofit programme to allow for the refit of the existing stock of Government accommodation. This will maintain building fabric and optimise the capacity of office buildings within State-owned accommodation. This is necessary to increase utilisation of existing property, in addition to addressing the EU requirements to minimise carbon emissions and carbon footprint by 2018 of public buildings.

It is worth noting that the Office of Public Works has a key role to play in the delivery of services which are not directly funded by the OPW Vote, yet consume resources in their delivery. For example, the OPW manages a comprehensive Garda building programme and in 2015, the Government launched a capital investment plan for An Garda Síochána for 2016-21 which involves the major refurbishment of stations-facilities from both the OPW and the Garda Vote. Three new divisional-regional Garda headquarters, at Kevin Street, Dublin, Wexford and Galway, are currently on site and will be delivered during 2017.

In the heritage area, the Office of Public Works continues to engage with Fáilte Ireland in realising the tourism potential within many of the historic visitor sites which it manages across the entire country.

Guided visitor services are provided at 70 sites nationwide on either a seasonal or a full-time basis. These sites include both nationally and internationally known attractions such as Newgrange, Clonmacnoise, Glendalough, Kilmainham Gaol, etc. They are a key part of Ireland's offering to visitors and meet the needs of particular segments of the international tourist body, such as the free and independent traveller and the culturally curious, which have been identified by Fáilte Ireland as key targets. The agencies are co-operating on the better marketing and presentation of these locations with a view to increasing visitor footfall and introducing certain lesser known sites to the visiting public.

My office and Fáilte Ireland are also co-operating in respect of new tourism potential built on the success of the Wild Atlantic Way, which encompasses a broad range of the OPW's historic sites. In the context of Ireland's Ancient East, the OPW, the former Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and Fáilte Ireland have entered into a strategic partnership, aiming to invest in a series of capital works developments over the period 2016 to 2021 which are designed to improve the offering to visitors at a broad range of locations within the historic portfolio.

The OPW heritage service is also responsible for providing a quality event management service and logistical support to other Departments and Government generally. In performing these duties it has been proactively managing and facilitating State events in this decade of commemorations, including this year, the successful 1916 commemorative events. I realise that I have referred to only a small part of the work of the OPW, which has a vast array of responsibilities but if members have any questions on any area of the office's funding or outputs, I will be happy to take them.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. The agenda states that the committee is to consider the 26 Revised Estimates. I wish to make all those present aware of the following: no decisions are taken by the committee in relation to its consideration of the Estimates; the committee is only empowered to consider the Estimates and cannot alter, amend or vote on them; the committee must send a message to the Dáil when it has completed its consideration of the Estimates and it cannot decide not to do so; under Standing Order 90, that message must be to the effect that the select committee has completed its consideration of an Estimate referred to it by the Dáil; there is no provision for the expression of opinion by the committee on the Estimates in its message; and, as the standing order prescribes the nature of the message to be sent, the content is not a matter for decision by the committee.

I consider that puts us in the position of being glove puppets for the whole process in this House. The standing order reduces this debate to a farce because we cannot send any messages or do anything and I want to put on record my disappointment, which is nothing to do with the Minister of State, with this arrangement and the fact that the public sees the Dáil referring the Estimates to committee. It will hear the message going back from this committee, which is already set down and it believes we will forensically examine the Estimate and the public should know that is not the case. I am not prepared to entertain this type of arrangement on an ongoing basis. I will continue to make public statements as the Chairman or raise the matter in the Dáil to ensure that committees are appropriately empowered to do what is necessary. Let it be known, however, that it is a complete farce that the committees are appointed and their hands are tied.

In respect of the joint committee, I understand that the Members from the Seanad have not yet been appointed and that there is some haggling going on about how they are to be appointed. That is holding up the work of this committee. That has to be stated and if we are allowed to send a message, perhaps one should be sent to the Seanad to please get its act together and give us the members of the committee so that we can continue our work.

We should be receiving our information in a timely fashion from the various Departments that come before us. That did not happen today. I know there has been a particular political process that delayed matters and the formation of committees. We are considering the Estimates for this year in June. Every Department would know exactly what we are going to debate here so the information should come to us long before the day prior to a meeting. I ask the Minister of State to bring this to the attention of those who provide the committee with information and to indicate that what happened in this instance will not be acceptable in the future. We want information to be supplied in a timely fashion in order to give members the opportunity to read into the brief and understand the figures concerned. That being the background to the meeting, I open it to members if they wish to raise questions on the Estimates.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I congratulate the Chairman on his appointment and wish him well in his role. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, to his first engagement with the select committee and wish him well in his role.

What are the figures for the outturn for last year? Did the OPW spend all of its budget last year? Can the Minister of State explain why the budget for programme A, flood risk management, for 2016 is down by 16% in comparison with the 2015 allocation? The Minister of State spoke about the very large allocation by Government of €430 million to flood risk management for the period 2016 to 2021 but that does not seem to correlate with the actual figure for 2016.

In regard to ensuring that insurance cover is provided for areas where flood relief schemes have been completed, the previous Government had a series of meetings with the insurance industry in January and there were promises of further engagement and action if necessary. Where schemes have been completed by the OPW to the required standard under the European directive, is it the Minister of State's view that the insurance industry should ensure that cover is reinstated? There seems to be a dispute between the insurance industry and the OPW about the use of demountable defences. The industry does not seem to recognise these as being of equal value and as being as effective as permanent defences. Will the Minister of State comment on that and say how open-minded he is about the introduction of legislation, if necessary, to deal with the issue?

Can the Minister of State give us an update on the Cork city flood relief scheme? It is almost seven years since Cork city was devastated by flooding in November 2009. The scheme has been delayed several times and we still await definitive confirmation of when the scheme will happen and I would appreciate an update on that.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Responsibility for insurance and legislation for insurance rests with the Department of Finance. In the context of the interdepartmental group set up to consider policy, the Department of Finance will be bringing forward options in terms of what we can do to ensure that people are insured. In areas in which the OPW has put in place permanent defences that meet the requisite standards, the level of reinsurance stands at approximately 89%. As Deputy Michael McGrath highlighted, however, insurance companies are refusing to reinsure people in areas where temporary defences are put in place. We need to consider the different options. I expect to get recommendations or suggestions on how to deal with that from the interdepartmental committee.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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When can we expect to receive those recommendations?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I expect that the interdepartmental group will report back to me in the next couple of weeks, in the middle of the year. The next two stages are a sub-committee of the Government and then on to the Cabinet. I am very concerned about the matter. We will do whatever we can to get people insured.

In 2016, there was a 16% decrease in funding. A separate fund was provided for storm damage, through the Office of Public Works, to compensate local authorities for floods, so that is why the figure was like that. There was also a carry-forward of €7 million into this year's budget from last year's flood risk management budget. Was there anything else?

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I asked about the Cork city flood scheme.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Exhibition stage will take place in the third quarter of 2016. Agreement has been reached with Cork City Council to undertake some advance works on Morrison Island as part of the public realm, and these will be carried out in 2017.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Minister of State have a date for when the overall scheme will move to tender and construction stage?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The scheme will reach exhibition stage in the third quarter of 2016, then go through a process of public consultation, followed by detailed design, and finally tender. It depends on what comes up during the public consultation process and, therefore, it is hard to set a time.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will it be next year?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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No.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will it be 2018?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I hope so.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is not terribly reassuring.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I have tried to be clear.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is it expected to go to tender in 2018?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Yes. The process is as follows: exhibition stage is in the third quarter of 2016, followed by public consultation, detailed design, procurement and finally tender for the contractor, which means it will be 2018, but the advance works will take place in 2017.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I ask the Chairman for his forbearance at the outset, because we will operate a question-and-answer format while I have the floor.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is a learning process for us all.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Yes. I welcome the Minister of State and wish him well in his new role. I have a few policy-related questions. He said in his speech that he would fulfil the existing level of service and there would be no policy change. I want to flesh this out. Does he mean the status quowill obtain from 2015 to 2016 and there will be no new Departments in terms of policy implementation, particularly for the management of heritage?

I note that the Minister of State referred to heritage services. He mentioned very specific sites and talked about co-operating with Fáilte Ireland on initiatives such as Ireland's Ancient East and the Wild Atlantic Way. A pot of approximately €65 million has been made available for capital projects by Fáilte Ireland. How will that money be disbursed? Will it be disbursed outside the keynote sites that are normally referred to in terms of tourist attractions? He referred specifically to Kilmainham Gaol, Glendalough, Clonmacnoise and Killarney National Park. There are other sites that I would advocate, such as Doneraile Wildlife Park in Cork, which has approximately 450,000 visitors per annum. Will there be a change in policy that would allow such sites to be marketed along with either the Wild Atlantic Way or Ireland's Ancient East? I want to get a sense from him of how he views heritage sites, tourism potential and job creation in rural areas. There are sites that are a little off the beaten track but they are no less important than the big keynote sites.

With regard to CFRAM, Deputy Michael McGrath mentioned the Cork project and insurance issues. The Munster Blackwater, and specifically the flood alleviation works that were carried out in Fermoy and Mallow, are keynote OPW projects that have delivered significant benefits. My next issue is demountable walls. Has an actuarial analysis been done to assess the cost of insurance in cases in which demountable walls have been put in place? There is clear evidence that the presence of demountable walls alleviates flooding. I do not mean to be too parochial but I am referring to the Munster Blackwater, where the OPW did a stellar job in two specific towns. There is proof that demountable walls work because they have stopped towns from being flooded. That should, from an actuarial point of view, have the knock-on effect of driving down insurance premiums. We need to be more vociferous and stronger when sending a message to the insurance companies about such issues. In my opinion, insurance companies are using the excuse that there is a lack of evidence to support demountable works or that there is some actuarial analysis or mitigating risk factor associated with demountable walls. Perhaps this is an issue that the Minister of State could take up. Can I have a specific start date for the Bandon and Skibbereen projects?

My next point also concerns CFRAM. It could be argued that the OPW maps trawl well beyond certain curtilages, especially in villages with arterial drains, minor rivers or streams. Even if one were to assess the 100-year flood risk in certain places, the analysis would drive up the cost of insurance for the people who live there. Has CFRAM looked at towns and villages that have tributaries? Has CFRAM adopted a belt-and-braces approach to alleviating flood risk in such places? The area for further assessment identifies the risk. How does CFRAM measure the risk? Does it use the usual formula of the 100-year flood? Is it less than that?

I thank the Minister of State for his statement. Notwithstanding his statement that there will be no policy change, are there specific issues related to the timeframe in which to deliver projects? What does he wish to achieve, on his watch as Minister of State responsible for the OPW, in terms of heritage, the management of natural resources and flood alleviation? I would like him to outline, in his own words, his vision for the Department. Have functions been clearly delineated and delegated to him in terms of the management of his budget?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I shall first refer to heritage sites. Ireland has some of the finest sites in the world. The marketing of them is not what it should be and we seem to have kept them a secret, especially sites not located on the main thoroughfares. Tourists are dragged around the east and west coasts and down the south to visit attractions but they are unaware that there are fine sites in the midlands.

The core policy of the OPW is the care, maintenance and preservation of the sites. The marketing of the sites is carried out in collaboration with Fáilte Ireland. I hope that in future there will be more collaboration.

A total of €5 million, for example, was invested in Kilmainham Jail in 2016. That will increase visitor numbers from 350,000 to 500,000. That is the type of growth we wish to achieve, and we want to replicate that in other places. The policy does not have to change; it is a matter of making use of existing resources and collaborating with other local authorities and with Fáilte Ireland in order to market sites and make them more vibrant and accessible. There is potential all over the country, including in the midlands where we could set up a wetlands area that would be a unique feature in this country. There are things we can do such as the example outlined. The OPW has an interpretative centre there that could work in collaboration with Longford and Roscommon county councils to create something completely different. It is important to work together. The policy does not change; that is still about the care and maintenance of sites and to ensure they are open, well kept and that we increase the visitor numbers. That is something on which we are working. Visitor numbers are growing. They are up 33% on last year. In my area of east Galway there are fine sites but we are not getting enough visitors. Overall, visitor numbers are up but we must spread them out a bit more.

Deputy Sherlock’s second question related to the Munster Blackwater area. He mentioned insurance and flood defences. What the Taoiseach said is on record, namely, that the temporary defences put up by the Office of Public Works are based on best international standards. The situation is that insurance companies refuse to ensure people but there are options open to the Minister for Finance, including saying companies must insure people, but then one would not have any control over the premium or policy excess. There is no point in saying to someone that he or she will get insurance for his or her home but it will cost €10,000 a year. We must be realistic. We can say to the insurance industry that we want it to insure people but the difficulty under law is that we cannot set the premium. The Department of Finance is looking at other options and they will be brought before the all-party committee.

The CFRAM programme is based on areas where there are villages and towns. Flood issues in rural areas are addressed through minor works that can be carried out by local authorities with funding provided by the Office of Public Works. That work has been taking place in recent years and is ongoing.

Deputy Sherlock also asked a question about Bandon and Skibbereen. I was in Skibbereen two weeks ago. The contract has been signed there and the contractor is mobilising and will be on site within weeks, if he is not already setting up there. I expect the Deputy will see the work commence in July. The letter of acceptance has been sent to the contractor in the case of Bandon and the contract is about to be signed. There are a few issues in terms of the final pieces of paperwork to be submitted to the Office of Public Works, which is the contracting authority in that regard. Between July and August both of those projects will be up and running on site. I am delighted for Deputy Sherlock and the people of Cork that they are going ahead because that is important.

A question was also asked by Deputy Sherlock about timeframes for carrying out projects. In the past four to five weeks in the Department I have examined how we are delivering the flood relief programmes, how the projects are being delivered and the time taken from the inception of a project to getting a contract signed or getting the work started on the ground. It appears that the process is taking an inordinate amount of time, on average, between six and seven years. That is not great comfort for people who have been flooded. We are looking at ways to streamline the process to reduce the timeframe between the project being accepted and the commencement of works. The areas we are looking at are procurement, planning, compliance issues, tendering and how we could reduce the timeframe. I am working on the issue with all the other Departments that are involved. We met yesterday and agreed that it is an issue we will examine because we need to do something about the matter.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Is the Minister of State chairing the interdepartmental group?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The interdepartmental policy group is separate to the meeting we had yesterday evening with all the relevant Departments about the processes involved in getting a project done. It is not an interdepartmental policy group. It is a group that has come together to see whether we can put procedures in place to reduce the timeframe because, to be honest, it is way too long.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Yes. My point about flood mapping is that if one takes CFRAM and a small village with a stream going through it where there has not been a flood within living memory, the insurance maps will show clearly at present that the curtilage of the stream is very wide and the area is deemed to be a flood plain. I might not have explained myself clearly. When the CFRAM study on the villages and towns we are talking about sees the light of day there must be a realistic mechanism built in such that one looks at the 100-year risk. If a village has not flooded, or the stream has not burst its banks, in living memory, and people are paying an extra premium for their insurance because the mapping is such that the curtilage is very wide either side of the bank, then I contend that the OPW or the Minister of State must look at the issue because it is driving up the cost of insurance and some places are uninsurable as a result.

Barryscourt Castle in Cork is another prime OPW site. We all acknowledge the excellence with which the OPW carries out its work in terms of care, maintenance and enhancement, because it has spent considerable resources recently enhancing such sites off the beaten track. Barryscourt Castle in Carrigtwohill is on a main thoroughfare and it is an example of wonderful work conducted by the OPW but it has been closed for some time and it is still closed. If the Minister of State cannot respond to me on the issue today perhaps he could revert to me.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I have just been told Barryscourt Castle is being rewired at the moment.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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It is being rewired. Do we know when it is opening?

Mr. John McMahon:

I am not sure when it is reopening again but the works are well advanced. I am not 100% sure it is opening this season but it might be next season. I will come back to the Deputy with definite information.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I appreciate that because it is another key site for the south and it would be fantastic if it could be open this summer but I think we are too late.

Mr. John McMahon:

It was with great reluctance that we closed it but the wiring was in a very dangerous condition and we just could not allow it to open for staff or for visitors. It was necessary to rectify that but once the rewiring it is completed the castle will be reopened again as soon as possible.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I thank Mr. McMahon.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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To reply to Deputy Sherlock about the maps, I do not think he is talking about flood plains but where the maps have been drawn up suggesting areas are a potential flood risk although there has never been flooding. The insurance companies are looking at that. They are also looking at their own maps as well. There is an issue in that regard. The CFRAM process looks at a range of flood risks, including five-year, ten-year, 20-year, 50-year or 100-year flood cycles. There might be an issue with insurance companies using the maps to increase premiums or to refuse to insure people if they see any potential risk on a map.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Will the Minister of State comment on his delegated functions? Have they been clearly defined and is there a very clear budget? Will the Minister of State have absolute autonomy and policy control over his budget? Has it been notified to the Dáil at this stage? I am not aware that it has been.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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We can check that out. It has probably been deferred for 12 months.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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The Minister of State is not being facetious.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I wish the Chairman well in his role. I welcome the Minister of State and wish him well. I will be brief as I have to attend a meeting of the Committee on Arrangements for Budgetary Scrutiny 10 o'clock. I concur with everything the Chairman said on this exercise. This is one of the areas we are looking at and will be bringing forward recommendations so this is more than just a box ticking exercise. I will go into the substance of some of my comments.

Let us just deal with the insurance industry. A number of Deputies have raised the issue already. Since the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, was appointed, how many meetings has he had with members of the insurance industry?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I have had no meetings with members of the insurance industry. I have had a meeting with the interdepartmental group that makes policy decisions. The Department of Finance is talking to members of the insurance industry.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister of State not believe that, given his responsibility under CFRAM and the fact the insurance industry is using maps being produced not to insure households and is not dealing with demountables, he has a responsibility to engage with the insurance industry? Is it his intention not to meet with members of the insurance industry?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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It is my intention to meet with the insurance companies but I have not met with them yet. I have met with the interdepartmental group which includes the Department of Finance. I have met with other groups to try to get a handle on everything that is happening and to understand where things are not going right. A memorandum of understanding has been signed with the insurance companies which says the OPW will provide Insurance Ireland with detailed background and technical information on all completed OPW flood relief schemes, including maps showing the extent of the area provided. To date, it has provided that information on 16 schemes which have been completed by the Office of Public Works. Insurance Ireland has undertaken that member companies will take into account all information given to them by the OPW. There is an issue with temporary flood defences which we will take up with Insurance Ireland.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I will move on from this. It will be surprising and disappointing to households and businesses that have been flooded or are at risk of flooding and whose insurance companies refuse to insure them when their premiums are coming up for renewal, that Deputy Canney, as Minister of State, has not decided to lift the telephone to members of the insurance industry to ask them to get a grip on the situation, to talk with them to ensure they continue to renew such premiums until a plan is put in place.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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It is important that we have alternatives in the event that we ask them to insure these temporary flood defences and that they do so but at a cost that is totally prohibitive. We have to be reasonable about it and we may have to look at alternatives.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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When does the Minister of State expect to publish the interdepartmental flood policy co-ordinating group's report?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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It will be go to my Department in the next couple of weeks and then to Government. The Government will decide when it will be published.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It will probably be September.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Hopefully.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Does the OPW have a view on whether a pooled resources fund is required to deal with the effects of flood damages as in the case of some other countries, for example, Britain?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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That is being looked at by the interdepartmental committee and it will report back to me on that in the next couple of weeks.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister of State have a view on it?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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As a result of the mayhem and suffering that people go through when there is flooding, we have to look at every avenue and try to use every resource possible. At the moment we are providing more resources in the Department to deal with the additional workload coming up. We have to make sure that we get the works done by whatever means necessary and to short circuit it as quickly as possible. Humanitarian aid is being given but at the same time, people need to be reassured that if a flood event occurs, everything is made available to help them and to ease the problem if their house or land gets flooded or if their roads are impassable. We have to make sure we have a plan to make everything work right. We need to have early warning systems and weather warning systems to make sure-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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On the specific question of a pooled fund, which would be there to deal with the effects of flood damage, is the Minister of State saying that it is on the table for consideration?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Everything has to be on the table.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Estimates and programme A provide for six schemes. Am I to understand that no major flood risk schemes commenced in 2015? Is that what I read from these? Of the seven major flood relief schemes that were to commence last year, none commenced at all? Is that correct? Will the Minister of State explain why there was such a failure?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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That is correct.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Why were none of the targets of major flood schemes delivered in 2015? How could that have happened?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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A number of things happened before my time, which I may not agree with. One was the change in legislation on how to get approval and funding for these projects. They had to go to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and they had to do a full EIS on the projects again to confirm that the first EIS was correct.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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So this is internal nonsense that we created to delay projects.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I would call it nonsense but it may not be internal. It came from EU regulations and that is one of the reasons the time taken is way too long. There are lots of reasons for that.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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At this point, approaching the middle of the year, only one of the six major flood relief schemes that are to commence in 2016 has commenced. I presume those six are some of the seven that were supposed to start last year.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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If the Deputy takes for instance-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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This year, we are not even targeting to start the seven that we targeted last year.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The way the reporting is being done here is that what is targeted the following year is some of what was not done in the previous year. If the reporting mechanism is not clear in what started and what is ongoing, it is an issue. The Deputy asked earlier on about Bandon and Skibbereen. Neither of them is included in the figures.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Let me clarify this for the committee. Seven major flood relief schemes were to start in 2015 but none of them started. Are we agreed on that?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Yes.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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We have decided to reduce that seven down to six for 2016, so we will not try to achieve last year's targets this year. Why are we doing that? Why did we drop one of the major schemes that was supposed to already have started last year? How come only one of the six that are targeted for this year has started so far? Is the Minister of State confident that all six will commence by the end of the year?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Bandon, Skibbereen, Claregalway, Templemore, Foynes and Dunkellin will all start this year.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is five.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Templemore, Claregalway, Bandon, Skibbereen, Foynes and Dunkellin is six.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Which of the schemes that were supposed to have started in 2015 has the Minister of State now dropped and which will now not start until at least 2017?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The Ennis south scheme ran into technical difficulties and has been delayed. There was another one-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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A delay of two years.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Yes. The lower Morrell in Kildare has been delayed.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Are we planning to fail? We seem to be going back instead of forward.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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During the period of public consultations, there were objections to the proposals for Clontarf. That delayed the whole process. On the question of whether we were going backwards, we may not have been making moving forward, but I am looking at ways to ensure that we progress without delay. The significant regulations that are built around projects create major delays that are not acceptable.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to query a number of small allocations. There is a projected overspend in the President's household in 2016. It should be easy to identify what is at issue. There is a significant overspend, more than 400% on the projected figure for the purchase of sites and building. In regard to the number of strategically important acquisitions will the Minister of State outline which strategically important properties will be acquired by the OPW?

The maintenance allocation for 2016 is in the region of €54 million. I presume that figure includes the allocation for the work on Leinster House. Will he clarify the requirement to shut down Leinster House during the summer recess? It has been suggested that it could take from four weeks to 11 weeks to carry out the works. The OPW needs to bring clarity to the timeframe for the project.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I will start with the Deputy's question on the recess. The OPW does not determine when the Oireachtas closes or when the Dáil will go into recess. The OPW will work around the decision of the Oireachtas and is not seeking to have the Oireachtas close earlier or reconvene later. It will work around the available time.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Can it carry out the necessary works without closing the House?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The OPW has never requested that Leinster House be closed earlier.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Deputy Doherty queried the additional spending, an increase of 400% on the acquisition of sites. One cannot decide not to buy a property because it was not in the original Estimate. One does not know at the start of the year what will come on the market, and one buys sites that are deemed to be of strategic importance when the opportunity arises. We have made the following acquisitions: Enterprise House, Benamore Business Park, Roscrea, Caltra carpark in Sligo, Bailieborough new Garda station, a house adjoining our property in Clontuskert, County Roscommon, and property for Garda stations in Talavera, County Tipperary and Dunlavin County Wicklow. Sometimes one buys a property when it comes on the market, one has to move rather than sit on one's hands and end up regretting it for the rest of one's life.

In respect of the President's household, the overspend was on staff replacements when people retire.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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My final question is linked to the acquisition of property. It was interesting that the Minister of State referred to the acquisition of sites for Garda stations. He said one needs to move when properties come on the market instead of regretting it for the rest of one'S life. Obviously the OPW screwed up royally when it did not purchase the Garda Síochána regional headquarters at Harcourt Square, the nerve centre of the Garda Síochána, given that the annual rent is €5 million. It went on the market under the control of NAMA and was sold at a low cost. There is an attempt to evict the Garda at the end of their lease. In 2013, we called on the OPW to purchase that office block but the then Minister said it would be inappropriate for him to comment. Did the OPW ever consider purchasing the office block? More important, have we a contingency for the 800 Garda personnel currently working in that office block? I understand that a long-term site may be identified in Kilmainham that could cost anything up to €60 million. Will he confirm the figures that have been in the public domain? What will happen in the short term, because I understand an application for planning permission has not been lodged for the Kilmainham site? Will he outline the steps that will be taken to activate that site? What will happen if the court case fails and the REIT that owns Harcourt Square secures the eviction of the OPW when the four leases come to an end in the middle of this year?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I think it is better not to comment on the legal proceedings. I was not a Member of the Dáil in 2013 but I will find out if the OPW put in a bid and revert to Deputy Doherty on that, unless someone wishes to answer it now.

As he mentioned, there is a site being considered so that we own a property and do not end up in a situation where a lease runs out again. That site is on Military Road, Kilmainham and is going for planning under Part 9. It will be a number of years before that will come into being. I think there are contingency plans being formulated but we must await the outcome of the court case.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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This is important because in the context of the Estimates, we are considering real expenditure. I am not asking the Minister of State to comment on the High Court proceedings. The decision will be made by the court but we need to ensure there are contingencies built into the Estimates. Have we identified a short-term facility that will allow us to relocate the Garda nerve centre from Harcourt Court to a suitable location, should the High Court uphold the decision not to renew the lease. Is there provision for such a contingency fund built into the Estimates? Will the personnel currently in Harcourt Street be accommodated? The suggestion is that the proposal accommodation near the port tunnel has the capacity to accommodate only half the total number of staff in Harcourt Court. That is not suitable.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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It is my understanding that the OPW are in discussion with the Garda Síochána on all eventualities that may arise. Let me assure the Deputy that all eventualities are being examined right now.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Is it built into these Estimates?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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No.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Why not? The four leases expire in the middle of the year. If the OPW loses the court case, the Garda Síochána have to leave the office block and it will be difficult to find an alternative property that is suitable for the nerve centre of the Garda. I assume there will be additional costs. How does the OPW deal with the administration of all of that?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Rent is being paid under the existing lease, and should the Garda headquarters be required to leave that rent money is still available. The OPW is looking at the all options; perhaps some of the units could be houses in existing available space where there would be no need to pay rent.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that the €5 million rent could be used to rent another building but let us be clear, Harcourt Square is the nerve centre of the Garda, it is where CAB is located. It is not just a case of going to another building, but replacing the entire infrastructure that has been built up over many years. When one looks at the allocation for refurbishments, it does not include a sum to meet the amount of money that would be required to fit out a temporary building for An Garda Síochána.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The Deputy has raised a number of points. We could be discussing a hypothetical scenario depending on the outcome of the court case.

All contingency plans are being addressed at the moment in close co-operation with the highest level of the Garda and the Office of Public Works to see what they will be. If there is any costing involved with that, it will come to the fore as well.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I have a final question, with the indulgence of the Chairman. Will the Minister of State assure us that under the contingency plan, the entire staff at Harcourt Street will be located under one roof?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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At this stage I cannot comment on that because I do not know the detail. As I stated, it is all being worked on now. There are probably 650 staff there. Let us deal with it and see what will be the strategy.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I wish the Chairman the very best in his role and I wish the Minister of State the best in his Department over the coming months. The catchment flood risk and assessment, CFRAM, report was documented in the Minister of State's opening remarks. Essentially, he has already pointed out that urban areas will be best served by the report in terms of requirements and conditions. I am just concerned about rural areas. What programme of works has been put in place for them and what budget is prescribed? There is much concern that rural areas will be left behind by the report and no works will be carried out. We have had a huge disaster in terms of the scale of flooding but no work has yet commenced.

Subhead A5 relates to flood risk management and I note that, almost halfway through the year at the end of May, less than 8% of the allocated budget has been expended. Considering there was a €7 million carry-over from the previous year, that would concern me greatly. We really need to get our act together. I am interested in why it is so far behind. The Minister of State mentioned that local authorities with minor works programmes could carry out some work for rural areas. It seems there has been a trend away from that recently in the Department, as noted in the report. Will the Minister of State comment on those points?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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As I stated, the CFRAM is concentrating on areas of population. Other areas are being dealt with under the budget through minor works schemes proposed by local authorities. They can run to €500,000. I do not have the figures with me but between 2009 and 2015, there were 514 schemes done that way, with €30 million expended on minor works schemes in that time. There is no let-up with the minor works schemes. I encourage all local authorities which can identify schemes to submit them to the Office of Public Works as the money is there to carry them out. That is important.

The Deputy's question related to spending money, particularly what has been spent and what will be spent during the year. As a result of rules and regulations, there are certain windows of opportunity in which we can carry out works and there are certain times when it cannot be done. In the river areas, July to September is a window in which we can carry out works. We cannot go into the rivers outside that time. There is a certain amount of work done before moving on. We do as much as possible in the window but then we have to wait for the next window. It is a bit like doing the hedge trimming on the roads, which is governed by the bird nesting season. The rivers also have rules and regulations. Sometimes with flood relief schemes there is a stop-go issue, which is why it takes longer to carry out a project. It is not an ongoing process but seasonal. Since the end of May, additional spending of up to €10 million has been used.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is simplistic to say the money is in the Office of Public Works for local authorities to move forward and identify projects. Taking the scale of the Shannon, local authorities may not have the expertise to formulate solutions for rural aspects. The Minister of State mentioned that the CFRAM report is centred on urban populations but in rural areas, have we identified projects specifically for the Shannon that we can carry out, with money there to do it? Under the minor works scheme, I fear authorities will not have the capacity to do it.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The entire Shannon catchment is a CFRAM area.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The rural areas seem to be outside the works being done.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The Deputy mentioned the Shannon catchment area and it is a CFRAM area.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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There were consultation days for Carrickobrien and Cloonbonny, which are outside urban areas. The Minister of State mentioned we are focused on urban populations. My concern is the minor works schemes have not the capacity to carry out work outside the CFRAM report.

Mr. Tony Smyth:

In the preliminary flood assessments, the CFRAM report identified 300 areas across the country, effectively all the centres of population. It considers proposed measures for those. Major schemes may come out from it, and we will carry those, perhaps in co-operation with the local authority. It may identify minor works in some of those areas but outside that, if there are further works that the local authorities wish to carry out, they can do it with their own funding, if they have it, or apply under the minor works scheme. The criteria for that are on our website. As the Minister of State has indicated, we have completed over 540 of those, with spending of €35 million in the six or seven years since 2009. I told the Minister of State the wrong number. It is a very good support for local authorities in helping them with those issues, with small centres and smaller protection is needed.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In his earlier remarks, the Minister of State spoke about the different obstacles within the Department often seen as holding up progress. What plans does the Minister of State have to dismantle those obstacles?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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They are not obstacles within the Department but rather legal obstacles. There is legislation from Europe, for example, relating to habitats and special areas of conservation. All these must be taken into account. I mentioned a few minutes ago that work can only be carried out on a seasonal basis because of the sensitivities of where the work is done.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that. I am talking about the general operations within the Department. Is the Minister of State satisfied that he is in charge of an efficient operation, delivering the best possible outcomes?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Absolutely. I am very happy that the Office of Public Works is best positioned to deal with flood relief. It has the expertise-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am speaking generally and beyond flood relief.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Absolutely.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is happy with it. With regard to the management of staff in the Department, right down to parks, there is an issue regarding how staff are treated, should they bring forward complaints or issues. Is there a unit or individual dealing with that in terms of human resources and issues that may arise? Are there outstanding issues that might leave the Department open to payment of any money during the course of the year?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I am not aware of any outstanding issues. Any staff issues would be dealt with through corporate services. The Office of Public Works is going through a business transformation process to make it more efficient.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I raise the issue with respect to the payment of salaries and so on. I am aware of a case within the control of the Office of Public Works where an individual has had a most awful life within the office; that person continues to be paid but is not asked to work. I will bring this personally to the Minister of State's attention. I tried to do this before but to no avail within the Department and the issue has not been resolved.

That is costing the State money and is unfair to the individual concerned. It is a case of poor human resource management that these matters cannot be resolved in-house by the Department. I will give the details on the case to the Minister of State after the meeting.

How many OPW properties for which rent is being paid are not currently in use? Has the number of such properties been minimised? Have rental agreements or arrangements been broken and so forth?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Yes. Somewhere in the region-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What has the OPW done in the way of reducing the number of leases and so on?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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There are approximately 300 properties ---

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many leases does the OPW have on buildings that are not being utilised to the fullest extent?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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There are three such leases now.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Minister of State to name them for the committee.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The Island House office building, Cathedral Square, Galway ---

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How much is that costing per annum?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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That is costing €105,120-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Per year?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Yes, that is the annual rent.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that €105,000 or €120,000?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The figure is €105,120.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Is that building completely empty?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The commissioners are negotiating an early surrender as there is no other use for this building. The people who were there have moved into an Intreo centre.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How long has the building not been in use?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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It has not been in use since late 2015.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Since 2015, Island House has been vacant and the State has been paying rent for it of €105,120. Is that correct?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Yes, €105,120 per annum.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How long will that continue?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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At the moment, the Department and the OPW are negotiating an early surrender on that lease.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but how long will that take?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Negotiations are ongoing but I am sure it will be done as quickly as possible.

The second property is an office in the Civic Building, Blessington, County Wicklow, with an annual rent of €4,338. This office was closed by the Department of Social Protection in 2015 and an alternative use for the property is under consideration at present.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Since 2015, the State has had this property, at a rent of €4,000 per year-----

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The rent is €4,338.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What is the potential for a solution here?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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An alternative use is being considered for that office. It is envisaged that it will be brought back into use.

The third property is a storage unit at Tramore, County Waterford, with an annual rent of €32,505.29. This unit was previously used by the Revenue Commissioners and early surrender is being pursued as there is no other State requirement for this property.

Chairman:

How long has it been vacant?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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It has been vacant since the end of 2015.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The end of 2015.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I would point out that there are only three such properties in a portfolio of over 2,000.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That does not make it right.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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No, but I am just giving the facts.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How long would one have to work in the private sector to pay taxes of €105,000 per year? That is what it comes down to. It is taxpayers' money in all of these cases and there should be a greater degree of urgency around the management of those properties. This is something that we can revisit.

In terms of staffing at the various OPW sites, is there agreement with the unions regarding major heritage sites or major visitor attractions? Are agreements in place with regard to staffing levels?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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No.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has the OPW reduced the number of groundsmen and staff?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I will ask my officials to answer that question.

Mr. John McMahon:

In terms of the heritage properties, there would have been a slight reduction in staffing levels during the recession period when the recruitment embargo was in place. Each site is managed on an individual basis according to need. The presentation of each site is under review at all times and in some cases we have increased staff numbers. That was the case with Kilmainham Gaol, for example, where staff numbers were increased in the context of the 2016 commemoration programme. We rejuvenated and renovated the adjoining courthouse to increase the offering to the public and, as the Minister of State said, we are aiming to have 500,000 visitors at that site per annum. We also recently introduced online booking for Kilmainham Gaol. That is just one example of a site where the staffing cadre was reviewed as part of the development process. There are other sites throughout the country where we will also be attempting to rejuvenate the staffing cadre over the coming weeks and months but it all depends on resources.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the OPW moving more towards the private sector in the context of security?

Mr. John McMahon:

I assume the Chairman is referring to the property maintenance area. We have been looking at alternative ways, given staffing restrictions, of doing things like securing buildings. There is an argument that engaging private sector security companies provides more flexibility as against having people based permanently at individual sites. That is an option we are considering on a case by case basis.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Kilkenny Castle is a major heritage site attracting large numbers of visitors but there is only one groundsman employed there. I would urge the Minister of State to examine that and let me know the reason for it. Is that also the case with other sites? Is it the OPW's intention to recruit additional staff to fill any vacancies that may exist?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Is the Chairman referring to groundsmen?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I will look into it.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to refer now to the issue of Durrow Castle. When the OPW makes a grant available for restoration works, how does it carry forward that money if it is not used in a given year but will be used in the following year? Is there a figure in the Estimates which refers to grants that have not been spent but that will be spent in the future? How is the drawdown of these grants arranged?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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First, the only annual grant on the books relates to Glasnevin Cemetery. Regarding Durrow Castle, there are ongoing legal issues involved so I would prefer not to comment at this time.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is the usual answer from officials and Ministers who do not want to get into the detail of these things. I am just asking a question, namely, where a grant has been approved by a Minister in the past but the money has not been drawn down, where does that appear in the Department's books?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I will have to revert to the Chairman at a later date with the answer to that question.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No. Somebody here should know the answer. The Minister of State has four officials with him. I appreciate that he is new to his role but there must be someone who can provide an answer to this question. These are the Estimates and I want to know if they include the payment of a grant to a particular organisation. Where is the figure for that grant in the books?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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How many years ago was that grant approved?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thought that the Minister of State would be telling me that. It is his Department that prepares the books. There is only one grant in the book of Estimates and that is the Glasnevin Cemetery grant. However, a grant was announced for a particular project. We do not even have to know the particulars of that project. I am asking where the payment of that grant is accounted for in the book of Estimates.

Mr. Mick Long:

I am not aware of any other grants paid from other subheads by the OPW other than the grant for the refurbishment works at Glasnevin Cemetery.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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This was an announcement about grants. Therefore, it should have been in the Book of Estimates because it has not been drawn down. It might date back to a previous Minister's time but the fact is that these Estimates must reflect that in some way.

Mr. John Curtin:

It would not have been a grant. Basically, we would have had engagement with the tenant and as landlord of the property, we had an agreement that we would fund certain works on the fabric of the property to allow the tenant occupy the property or to engage with their business on the property, but it was not a grant. It was expenditure on the fabric of the property. The protocols on that expenditure were agreed with the tenant. It would come out of and be treated as part of the maintenance of one of the State's property portfolio.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Where is that in the Estimate?

Mr. John Curtin:

It would be under the maintenance subhead.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How much did the OPW spend?

Mr. John Curtin:

As I stated, there was engagement with the tenant and there was an agreement on how much funding would be required to deal with the property issues that existed at the time.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Did OPW spend the funding on it?

Mr. John Curtin:

My understand is that there has been some expenditure to secure the fabric of the property in the past year.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What is happening with the rest of the funding that was allocated?

Mr. John Curtin:

In this particular situation, the requirement and the utilisation of the property have not occurred in the manner that was foreseen in the terms and details of the original lease agreement.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In layman's language, that is a disagreement.

Mr. John Curtin:

In layman's language, there is a disagreement involving the landlord, which is the Commissioners of Public Works.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Minister of State to intervene in this matter because there are potential costs to the State. It is not reflected in the Estimates, but it is a potential cost, whether legal or compensatory, to the State and it needs to be sorted out. Going down that legal route is one step beyond common sense. The Minister of State, Deputy Canney, wants to bring change to that Department and I would suggest that outstanding matters, such as those with a potential liability, should be dealt with. I hope the note I gave will inform the Minister of State and that he will be able to resolve the issues. It is very important that we do not leave it on the long finger because it is not reflected here in the Estimates.

How it will be dealt with is a matter for the office, but I ask the Minister of State not to follow the line that it has gone down the legal route because that is merely parking it and sending it to a cul-de-sac. It is a tactic used by many Departments in order not to deal with a matter. I hope that between now and the meeting, which we hope to hold with the Minister of State and his officials in September, that particular matter at least can be brought to a head one way or the other in a common sense way.

Regarding the insurance issues that were addressed earlier by other members, there are properties and businesses along the River Nore in Kilkenny that have been destroyed. They are turning to the State for assistance because they could not get insurance and they are not covered by insurance. The fund made available by the Minister does not go to next or near putting them back in business. What is the Department's policy position on those few numbers of businesses, possibly dotted around the country, that are attempting to get back into business, that cannot get insurance and that are looking to the State for some sort of assistance to deal with their issues? Is there a fund or is there a way that the Minister of State can examine these issues with a view to resolving them?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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There is no fund for insurance compensation or for providing insurance cover within the Office of Public Works. As I explained earlier, that must be done under the remit of the Department of Finance.

I stated earlier that the interdepartmental committee which will report mid-year is looking at flood policy and part of that includes insurance, re-insurance, compensation and humanitarian aid. It includes looking at all aspects of the flooding issue, including areas of compensation for receding ground and voluntary relocation. A report will be brought to Government on that, including recommendations on how to deal with those who have found themselves, through no fault of their own, in a situation where they cannot get insurance.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is there no immediate response, as there was for damaged properties with the Irish Red Cross fund, etc.? In terms of the funds that have not been used, is there any funding left?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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There may be funding within the Department of Social Protection, which administered the humanitarian aid fund, but not within the Office of Public Works. The Department of Social Protection is a member of the interdepartmental group.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What about the smaller schemes for towns such as Graiguenamanagh that have been knocking on the door for quite some time to get their flood relief schemes dealt with?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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They are being brought forward as minor schemes from the local authorities. That is how they are being dealt with and there is funding available within the Office of Public Works to assist with those schemes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is a major scheme that must be funded directly by OPW, and deriving from an OPW plan.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Graiguenamanagh is an AFA within the CFRAM where there are 300 such projects. It is in the draft that is being prepared.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What comfort can a person living in Graiguenamanagh gain from that?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The comfort one can take from it is that Graiguenamanagh is recognised as a flood risk area and it is being included in the CFRAM process which has been carried out, the draft of which will be published in the coming weeks. There will be a public consultation process at which people can look at it and see what is being proposed. By the end of the year, that will be published. Then the local authorities may take them on board and adopt them as future programmes for work for the likes of that area.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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On the political policy point, there are many examples of that type of flood relief requirement all over the country for years that have not been addressed and now these are being put into another pipeline to wait again. The OPW, in the context of its work, must react in a far speedier fashion because of climate change and we have not seen that. I am wondering what the Minister of State will bring to the Department in insisting on the changes that are necessary to deliver far more efficiently.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I stated that earlier. We are looking at ways to reduce the amount of time that is spent on the process of getting a project to fruition so that we can get the machinery on site to get the work done. That process is taking far too long. I accept that. I have looked at projects that are now at construction and followed their path to construction and it is a six-to-seven year timeframe, which is totally unacceptable.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What are the Minister of State's proposals to reduce that?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I am working on them at present. It is difficult in that we are working within an existing legislative process. We must see if we can shorten the timeframe so that when it is decided that a project is worth doing, we get it done rather than creating another layer of paperwork that will take years to get it done. If one looks at the report, we are also increasing staff within the Office of Public Works to increase capacity to do more of these projects and get them designed and out there.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Finally, on the council's expenditure, does the Department evaluate the outcomes of these minor flood relief schemes?

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Mr. Tony Smyth will answer that. They are being audited.

Mr. Tony Smyth:

We carry out a small audit of approximately 5% of the works that were completed in the previous year. Our regional engineers do that to ensure they are completed in accordance with what was proposed to us.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What was the outcome of those on balance?

Mr. Tony Smyth:

Generally good. One or two went differently but, generally, they are quite acceptable. The response is good - in other words, local authorities did what they planned to do.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does the OPW visit the site as part of the audit?

Mr. Tony Smyth:

The regional staff would do that.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to one issue related to the drainage maintenance. I see that €5.5 million was spent up to 31 May 2016 but there seems to be no plan available relating to embankment maintenance, so it seems as if under that particular heading, the OPW is spending money but does not have the complete plan or has not judged the overall outcome and it is not available.

Mr. Tony Smyth:

Under the Arterial Drainage Act 1945, we completed a number of catchment drainage schemes for which we have maintenance responsibility. There are approximately 11,500 km of channel around the country to be maintained and this is done by our regional staff in Trim, Limerick and Headford. It is not exactly on a cyclical basis but they maintain most of the channels in a cycle of about five years, so one comes out with about 2,200 km and the associated structures that would be on that in terms of embankments. That is planned through our maintenance and detailed planning of that goes into what is needed. Where people make complaints about the state of the channel, that is taken into account and built into the next-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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So there is a plan there?

Mr. Tony Smyth:

There is a plan.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The OPW has it measured, as it were.

Mr. Tony Smyth:

Yes. We measure major and minor channels and the number of structures that we complete in the area and that is all planned and reported on regularly.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are there any other questions from members? I have a brief question about the procedure of the meeting. When the witnesses look across at the Deputies here, and the Senators when they are appointed, they will see their names up in lights. Do the witnesses have any difficulty having their names up there? The Minister of State is okay as he is down as "An t-Aire" but the names of the others are not there. It would allow us to see the names of the people represented here.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Absolutely.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is just an odd thing.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I was here for the Committee on Housing and Homelessness and the names of everybody who appeared before it were up, so we all knew who we were talking to.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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There is a further point.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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With respect, that is not the fault of the witnesses.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am not saying it is anyone's fault. I am asking for their opinion.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I am delighted to put them up.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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In terms of learning about how the OPW operates as an organisation, it might be helpful as well to distinguish between the role of the Minister of State and the commissioners in terms of how the law operates regarding the autonomy of the commissioners in respect of making decisions. Perhaps that should be dealt with in this forum, even today, to give us an insight into the role of commissioners because it arguably differs from other Departments because commissioners are appointed. It would be helpful for people who are watching these committee proceedings to get a two or three-minute insight into the role of the commissioners in respect of how the policy of the OPW plays out.

Mr. John McMahon:

In respect to the Deputy's point, under the Civil Service Management Board and the Civil Service Renewal Plan, all Departments were required to produce a governance framework on how the Department operates by quarter one of this year. The governance framework for the Commissioners of Public Works is available on our website. We make it freely available to anyone. It does identify the role of the commissioners, the role of the Minister of State and how the Department operates its governance arrangements.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The comments made by the Chairman at the very start of the meeting are very relevant and I will bring them back in terms of the workings and role of this committee. It definitely leaves a lot to be desired if one is just here to go through the motions, so I will bring that back. I accept what the Chairman is saying.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is not the Minister of State's fault but we are just ticking boxes and it is not satisfactory by a long shot.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Absolutely. I think everybody's names should be up there as well. The Office of Public Works would like the names up there.

Chairman:

We want to arrange a meeting in early autumn to discuss the budget and expenditure for 2017, so I am sure the Minister of State will facilitate that meeting. We will set a date and the clerk to the committee will be in touch. We will now send a message to the Dáil - the message it asked us to send before we even started the process, with no comments or anything else on it. I thank the Minister of State and the officials for attending.