Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 2 December 2015

Select Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality

Estimates for Public Services 2015
Vote 20: An Garda Síochána (Supplementary)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Supplementary)

3:00 pm

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Before we begin, I remind members and guests to turn off their mobile phones or leave them in airplane mode as, otherwise, they will interfere with the sound system.

This meeting has been convened to consider Supplementary Estimates for Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána, and Vote 21 - Prisons. I welcome the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, and her officials who will assist us in our consideration of the Supplementary Estimates. I thank them for the briefing material they supplied in advance of the meeting. Based on that information, the committee secretariat prepared a briefing document that was circulated to members and the Minister. Is it agreed that we follow the structure of the briefing document? Agreed.

I remind members that, in accordance with Standing Orders, the discussion should be confined to the items which constitute the Supplementary Estimates. If we follow the money rather than going into policy stuff, we will get the job done a lot faster. I invite the Minister to make her opening statement.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman and members for agreeing to change the time of the meeting to accommodate my attendance at a debate in the Seanad. I am grateful to the committee for making time available today to consider my request for a Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Síochána and prisons Votes. The Supplementary Estimate requirement in respect of the Garda Vote is €35.2 million and €6.297 million in respect of the prisons Vote. The additional requirements will be offset in part by surrender balances of some €8 million in respect of the other Votes in the Justice group.

The Supplementary Estimate requirement in respect of the Garda Síochána Vote is mainly due to additional payroll costs of approximately €33.8 million. The costs in question arise for a number of reasons and include the payment of allowances and overtime for the final roster period ending in December prior to year end. In previous years this would have been paid on the first pay days of the new financial year. The earlier roster end date facilitates the making of the payment within the financial year in which the duty is performed. In addition, the Supplementary Estimate also provides for other payroll costs, including overtime, which arose during the course of the year.

The additional requirement includes the costs related to anti-crime and anti-burglary measures, including the recently announced Operation Thor which builds on a dedicated Garda operation and has five elements to it. Measures being taken include the provision of extra high visibility patrols in identified burglary hot spots, increased use of checkpoints to tackle the criminal gangs which use the national road network, the use of new high powered vehicles by the armed regional response units as they come on stream, efforts to disrupt the stolen goods market, programmes to help reduce reoffending by prolific criminals; a high profile national crime prevention awareness campaign and the provision of targeted crime prevention advice for local communities.

A central aspect of the Supplementary Estimate is the utilisation of an underspend in 2015 in one area of the Vote to meet other capital requirements. This includes further investment in the Garda transport fleet and ICT investment. The total provision in the capital building subhead in 2015 is €42 million. Work has commenced on the construction of the three new Garda divisional headquarters in Galway, Kevin Street in Dublin and Wexford and it is projected by the Office of Public Works that approximately €10 million will be spent in the current year. An unspent amount of more than €6.6 million will be carried over in line with the relevant capital provisions to increase the 2016 budget to meet expenditure on these ongoing projects. Expenditure will be required to continue them next year and there is substantial provision in this regard.

That leaves a balance of more than €25 million which is being used to fund other capital requirements in 2015, including €17 million for ICT, €6 million for Garda transport and €1.8 million for upgrading the Garda surveillance aircraft. The additional allocation of €6 million for Garda transport means that we will have invested more than €34 million in new vehicles since 2012. In addition, a further €48 million is committed for investment in the Garda fleet under the Government's capital programme. These provisions mean vehicles can be routinely replaced as they reach the end of their normal lifespan.

An Garda Síochána has been able to accelerate certain elements of its ICT management programme. Yesterday I announced that additional capital funding of €4 million would be provided in 2016 for the Garda Vote to allow Ireland to participate in the Schengen information system, SIS II, a centralised secure database used by European countries for maintaining information and alerts related to border security and law enforcement. It is important that we align ourselves with this important source of live data. The United Kingdom, for instance, has been using it since last April. While An Garda Síochána already makes full use of the range of available information-sharing methods, including via its close links with Interpol and Europol, the SIS will provide an even more efficient way of sharing information in this important area. The expenditure we are seeking for this purpose complements An Garda Síochána's new reform programme.

Turning to the prisons Vote, the Supplementary Estimate of €6.297 million in this area mainly arises from additional payroll costs of €5 million and €1 million in respect of the capital building programme. The additional costs present because the number of serving prison staff is higher than the target number under the employment control framework, ECF, on which the original provision was based. They also include the payment of arrears relating to the reinstatement of a payroll allowance following the outcome of an arbitration hearing. The provision of an additional €6.4 million under the prisons Vote in 2016 will address any remaining shortfall in payroll costs and allow for the filling of a number of key posts.

There are several positive developments to report in regard to the refurbishment of the prisons stock. As members will be familiar with the ongoing work being done at Mountjoy Prison, I will not go into the details. It is planned to demolish part of Limerick Prison. The replacement of this cell space will involve a significant redevelopment project, to include a 150-cell accommodation block for male prisoners and a stand-alone female accommodation block for 58 prisoners. The additional capital expenditure requirement in the Supplementary Estimate arises, for the most part, from the requirement to carry out preliminary works on the Limerick Prison development project at an earlier date than originally planned.

I will comment briefly on the review of performance measures that has been ongoing in recent months. I reviewed the information included in the mid-term review which was submitted to the committee in July and the output of some of the subsequent engagement at official level. Several points struck me arising from this process. First, while I fully appreciate the objective of the exercise, undertaking a meaningful review of three years worth of data in a relatively short period was an ambitious exercise, to say the least. In the case of the Justice group, across all Votes, there was a total of 180 performance measures and key outputs. It is worthwhile to take a close look at the value of the performance-related measures published to date. I am aware that the OECD is in the process of completing a review of budget oversight by parliament.

We will have an interesting discussion when that is published. It is a complex task to develop the right balance of meaningful performance outputs, quantitative and qualitative. We do not want undue complexity or for it to be administratively burdensome, but we want a system that works and produces benefits and where the information is strong. There is room for improvement. We can all work together on this. It should facilitate our work as policy makers and the oversight role of Oireachtas Members and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform as the Department with responsibility for the Estimates and the Votes. I recommend these supplementary estimates for the Garda Síochána and propose them to the committee. I am happy to answer questions on them.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, model that the Houses are bringing forward is challenging and interesting, but if we all support the work of the Department throughout the year, examining, discussing and making an input into how the money is spent and the outturns, it could be very beneficial all round. Members could have helpful suggestions and ideas.

We will go through each subhead one at a time and we can deal with comments on them. We will start with subhead A1 on administration and pay, where €33,785,000 has been sought. In previous years this would have been paid on the first pay days of the new financial year, but that has changed.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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What is the cost of recruiting 100 members of An Garda Síochána per annum - the cost of training and so on? The Department is recruiting 600 in 2016.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The cost is approximately €7.2 million for 600 in a full year, but depending when they are recruited, it is pro rata.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Does that not suggest that the target of 600 is quite conservative considering the objective is to get it back up to 14,000?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Capacity at Templemore and the question of supervision of new recruits going out have to be taken into account. There were times in the past when the kind of supervision that is essential was not what it should have been. Now we are hearing about people further up the line who did not have that kind of experience. That is extremely important. The cost increases up the line in terms of increments. It increases very substantially once they move from training to being members of An Garda Síochána.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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What is the maximum number of recruits that can be trained at Templemore? Is there a facility to extend that capacity?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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It can be kept under review, but the decision taken with An Garda Síochána was to aim for 600 per year. There is some physical work being done at Templemore and facilities are used outside Templemore, which works well and is not a problem. It is probably good for the local economy and works to the satisfaction of Templemore. We have decided on 600 and restarted the investment. The number of retirements varies considerably in any one year. It is hard to predict it. We are training and recruiting and building up the workforce, and we intend to continue doing that.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Let us focus on subhead A1 and not stray into other areas. It involves payment of allowances and overtime for the final roster period at the end of the year, prior to the year end, which is a change. In other years it was paid at the start of the following year. Now it is being paid at the end of this year.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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If I stray on to the wrong subhead, I hope the Chairman will tell me. The Minister mentioned retiring gardaí. In view of the fact that the Garda can only recruit to the maximum capacity of Templemore, which is 600 per annum - I acknowledge the Minister's remark that it is impossible to predict how many gardaí may retire in any year - would she consider offering short extensions of service to gardaí, given the significant problems in places such as County Louth, where a garda was murdered recently and where in two years we have lost two gardaí? Would that be a way of having greater numbers of gardaí, if they were to agree voluntarily to an extension for a year or two years as an exceptional measure?

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy asked me to tell him if he spoke about the wrong subhead.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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If that is not the right subhead-----

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy looks at page 7 he will see that subhead B is perhaps more-----

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I am in your hands. If that question can be answered when we reach the relevant subhead, I will be happy.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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It it is helpful, I can point out that Gardaí can retire at 50 but many stay until they reach 60.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I accept that the flexibility is there, but could the Minister ask them to consider staying on? I am not familiar with the processes in the Garda Síochána. If they have certain skills and knowledge and corporate memory and we cannot get the gardaí we want, this could in a voluntary way extend the service of gardaí who might wish to stay on.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Some gardaí have approached me saying they wanted to stay in their role but had to retire.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The retirement age is 60. The Deputy’s point raises issues across the public sector. There was a challenge in court, as the Deputy may remember. The Government’s policy approach has been that there is a need for this ongoing recruitment and refreshment of the gardaí, the lifeblood of the organisation. The Garda is very pleased to have new recruits now. Every division in the country has got new gardaí. The total figure will be 1,150. The primary focus is to keep that going. We have taken the approach that we need to invest in An Garda Síochána to enable it to have mobile policing and the vehicles it needs. Also, information and communication technology, ICT, is critical in terms of efficiencies.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is straying into other matters. We will discuss the pensions subhead later.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Notwithstanding what the Minister says, my constituents would prefer a different answer.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will come back to that. We are on subhead A1. What does the change in the payment of allowances mean in practice, for instance, for Deputy O’Dowd’s constituents who are gardaí?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The payment relates to overtime and allowances worked by Garda members in the four-week period ending 6 December. In other years, the roster end date would have been later in the month, and hence, from a practical perspective in terms of payroll processing deadlines, it would not have been possible to make the payment in the financial year in which the duty was performed.

Photo of Gabrielle McFaddenGabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I raise the issue of salaries for new recruits. Following their training in Templemore, new recruits from the country are often stationed in Dublin where they find it difficult to make ends meet on the salary and allowances they are paid. Is there provision for an allowance for those who must live in Dublin?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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No, there is no such allowance. This issue has come up and parliamentary questions have been tabled on it. Obviously, I have discussed it with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, because it has arisen in the case of An Garda Síochána and other professions. Many years ago there was an allowance, but it was removed. The cost of reinstating it across the public sector would be very substantial. It, obviously, could not be done for any one professional group as it would have implications for all others. As soon as gardaí come out of the training college and begin to work and do overtime, the payment does increase substantially. I know that people still have concerns about the level of pay. Clearly, with improved economic stability which I hope will continue, the payments agreed under the Lansdowne Road agreement and the tax changes from 1 January will begin to be felt.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will move on to subhead A2 - administration - non-pay, for which an additional €29.1 million is required. I note that the money is required for critical IT systems and upfront investment in major investigations systems. Does Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn wish to comment?

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister will not be surprised to hear that I welcome the overspend as the Garda Inspectorate recommended significantly increased investment in ICT. In fact, it wants to have the PULSE system replaced. I know that will not happen immediately, but I hope it will in due course.

Will the Minister outline in more detail the things in which the Department is investing? The computer crime unit is essential because the dark net, an issue I have raised with the Minister previously, poses a real threat to our security. Persons can avail of anonymity to view images of children being abused and so on, which is repugnant to everyone in society. We want An Garda Síochána to have state-of-the-art equipment to decipher, break down and tackle criminality.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy will remember, one of the things I did last year was set up a group consisting of representatives from the Department of Justice and Equality, An Garda Síochána and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, as well as a nominee with experience across government of looking at IT systems. It was a priority project in terms of reform, one in which the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, had a particular interest. He felt it would be to the advantage of the ICT section in An Garda Síochána if we put together such a group to analyse the needs of An Garda Síochána and come up with a plan. The capital budget we have allocated is based on that plan, to which there are different elements. As the Deputy rightly states, it follows the recommendations made in the Garda Inspectorate's report. Rosters are still done with pen and pencil. There are significant ICT needs in An Garda Síochána, one of the major ones identified by the Garda Inspectorate being that the PULSE system not just be able to record crime but also deal with information on the investigation of crimes in an ongoing way. That is what we are prioritising for the rest of the year. What An Garda Síochána has done - it has put significant time and effort into this - is develop an ICT plan and obtain tenders. When we had the money available, it was able to state it had a number of projects which it could fast track before the end of year and begin to put in place. The money is being utilised to support and develop the PULSE system and to provide new systems such as e-vetting which is capable of processing up to 500,000 applications annually. A figure of €7 million in additional expenditure is accounted for by the three new phases of what is called the major investigation management system, to which I have referred. That means that all across the country the Garda will be able to state what exactly is happening in the investigation of a crime and that other members of the force will have access to the information. Obviously, this will make for much greater efficiency. The cost of the three new phases will be €5.9 million, while the cost of the additional hardware will be €1.1 million. The total is reflected in the Supplementary Estimate. There is also the larger plan to meet ICT needs, the total cost of which over the lifetime of the capital expenditure plan will be €330 million. There is a significant amount of work to be done on it. It will aid decisions on where gardai should be based and the investigation of crime, as well as create greater efficiencies within the Garda family.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Can the Garda system exchange information with the Courts Service system? How integrated are these systems?

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Representatives of the Courts Service appeared before the committee last week The Courts Service is really under pressure on the ICT side. Its representatives told us the service was totally under funded.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Garda system and the Courts Service system can exchange information. Equally, there is work to be done. I say this from experience of working with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport on the possibility of integrating the driver licensing system. There are issues that need to be dealt with to enable systems to talk to one another. There is basic integration between An Garda Síochána and the Courts Service, but the issue of IT systems in public bodies is ongoing; it is one on which there is a constant requirement for development and integration. We are at a certain point on that journey, but there is more work to be done.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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There has been significant investment in the Courts Service in the past couple of years. One of the problems is that when a member of An Garda Síochána goes to issue a summons, the person concerned is no longer at the address indicated. This happens quite often and it is a major waste of Garda time and resources. Is there an alternative? I think thousands of summonses have been issued to persons who no longer live at the addresses supplied.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That issue is being examined very carefully. I have been informed that An Garda Síochána commenced a pilot project involving a number of people who had been brought before the courts. A judgment was given which I understand the Garda is appealing. There is a project under way to co-ordinate the work being done under the driver licensing system. A very strong initiative is being taken to ensure data can be exchanged between the Courts Service and the driver licensing system, but it will take a period of time to complete it. I know that the original estimate was three years, but that figure has been brought down substantially. Both the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, and I are members of a joint committee with representatives of the Road Safety Authority and others which is looking at this issue which we are very keen to progress. There is also a criminal justice interoperability project as part of which the integration of District Court offences between the Garda and the Courts Service is being looked at, but no one system will deal with all of the issues. There are various projects on which progress is being made.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will move on to subhead A3 - Clothing and Accessories. An additional €1.836 million is required for additional uniforms for student gardaí who commenced training this year. It was not anticipated at the start of the year that funding would be required for new recruits. This indicates that the estimated figures at the start of the year have risen. Will the Minister inform us of the changes?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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This subhead includes expenditure on clothing and equipment supplies for serving members, as well as students. While the number of student gardaí being recruited was known in advance, it must be remembered that recruitment recommenced in September 2014 after a gap of five years. We required funding for additional uniforms required for the student gardaí who commenced training this year. A sum of €1.8 million was provided for this purpose in this subhead.

Some items delivered in 2015 will be distributed to Garda members in 2016 through the online uniform application system.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The next subhead is A5, which is transport. There is an additional €3.354 million there. It includes €6 million for new Garda vehicles and investments in high-powered vehicles in respect of anti-crime and anti-burglary initiatives, such as Operation Thor. They are offset by savings. Does anybody want to come in on that? There are no questions or comments on transport. Is this based on a scheduled replacement of the fleet? Is there an ongoing plan?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, it is ongoing.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Will all these vehicles be replaced in 2015 as scheduled?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Everything that needs to be replaced will be replaced and there will be additionality.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will move on to subhead A7, aircraft, which is €2.281 million. The additional requirement is due mainly to the replacement or upgrade of equipment and the Garda aircraft.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The Chairman will remember that the committee visited the Air Corps at Baldonnel, but we also had a fascinating opportunity to look at the operation of the Garda helicopter and were made aware of what a substantial contribution those helicopters can play in combatting crime. It was an eye-opener. Is the Minister satisfied that there are enough helicopters to back up An Garda Síochána, particularly when one thinks about Operation Thor and targeting criminal gangs that are using the motorways to access rural communities in the Dublin commuter belt area. I imagine the deployment of these helicopters is an essential weapon for the Gardaí to target these gangs and bring them to justice. I know members of the committee were impressed with the professionalism of the corps and the team there, but we want to ensure they have everything they need in terms of helicopters. Is the Minister satisfied that what she has allocated is going to address that and maximise the potential?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps it would be helpful if I gave some details on what it is actually doing. The €1.8 million was for the upgrade of police equipment on the Defender aircraft. The equipment that was there was obsolete and no longer supported by the manufacturer, so it was essential to replace it. I must check, but I think it was also so that it could be used at night. Yes, it can be used at night as well and it has the machinery and infrastructure it needs to operate at night, which it did not for some time. The equipment includes a video distribution system, including monitors and recorders; a downlink-uplink system; a moving map system; a mapping overlay system for the video feed to the monitors and a daylight and shortwave infrared thermal imaging camera system. This effectively means that aircraft is now up to date and able to do its work. There is always a need to examine whether there could be further use as society develops and there is more movement. We have already heard about criminals using motorways and so on. It is very good to have this aircraft. There are two helicopters in total, I understand. The fleet available to the Garda is two helicopters and the Defender aircraft.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The professionalism of the Garda unit that deals with that was clear to us, but I also got a sense that they needed additional resources. It was a couple of years ago, in fairness. I know it is an operational matter, but is the Minister satisfied that what she has just outlined to us is what is required? Has the Garda requested additional equipment, or is that a plan for the following year? Is it being rolled out over a couple of years? Is she satisfied this is what the Garda needs right now?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, it is an operational matter. I have no doubt that it will be kept under review. I would go back to the point that we are now at a stage in the Department of Justice where we have been able to allocate extra funding to An Garda Síochána; there have been extra allocations this year for next year and last year. That is a new situation and we are coming out of a difficult economic situation. These issues will be kept under review and it is very important that the Garda has the type of equipment and resources it needs to do the job efficiently. I have no doubt that this is an issue that will be kept under review and as the economic situation improves, it may well be reviewed, but it will be up to the Garda Commissioner to do that. I am very pleased at this point that we are able to invest in making sure that this aircraft works efficiently and has the most up-to-date equipment needed to do the job 24 hours a day.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Is anybody else offering? As nobody is offering, we will move to subhead A8, superannuation. There is €2.7 million required there, due to more lump sums falling due for payment in 2015 than provided for, including a carryover of payments from the end of 2014. This is people retiring.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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The Minister responded earlier and I understand the point she is making. In view of the exceptional need at this moment and the inability of the Garda to train more than 600 recruits at a time because of the physical limitation on the buildings at Templemore, would it not make sense, as an exceptional measure, to see if more people would continue to work? That is my point in a nutshell. Are there facilities to train gardaí somewhere other than Templemore? When Templemore is full, would it make sense to have a second location, such as a military barracks or somewhere that would be appropriately kitted out for people like that?

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O'Dowd moved very cleverly from pensions to the training of recruits.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge fully the Minister's absolute commitment to increasing the number of gardaí. Either we have to train more somewhere else, or we have to hold on to people for longer, if possible, as an exceptional measure.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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As a matter of interest, we had a Private Members' Bill last week on abolishing mandatory retirement. It was mentioned that in other countries people are not asked for their age and they do not have to retire if they do not want to - they can carry on working. It was an interesting Bill, which got unanimous support, and we had some very powerful presentations. In light of Deputy O'Dowd's comment, it is very timely to bring that forward.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The issues surrounding the Garda retirement age are of long standing. There would have to be detailed negotiations on the points that have been raised. People have very different views on it. I accept what Deputy O'Dowd said about the very tragic situation regarding Garda Tony Golden in his area, the appalling situation that he faced and that his family is now facing.

I do not believe we should be considering any other place for training other than Templemore. Templemore is the centre of excellence. We can examine flexibility in relation to numbers but the Government has made a decision now. We started off with groups of 500 and have now moved that to 600. We have committed to ongoing continuous recruitment. There are other measures that could be taken, such as replacing some gardaí with civilian staff so that gardaí can operate on the front line, rather than carrying out administrative duties. Some improvements can still be made in respect of that.

The kind of investment we are making is the way to deal with the issues Deputy O'Dowd is speaking about. At the recent talks about the North, for example, it was decided that a further cross-Border task force should be established to enhance the work between the PSNI and the Garda Síochána. I will be meeting with the UK Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, and the Northern Ireland justice Minister, David Ford, who rang me today to congratulate the Garda on the work it has been doing recently. That is the way to deal with the complex issues that are being faced in the area Deputy O'Dowd speaks about in particular.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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How many more gardaí retired than anticipated? The document states, "The additional requirement is due to more lump sum payments falling due for payment in 2015 than provided including a carryover of payments from the end of 2014".

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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It was approximately 20.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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On page 6, subhead A6 there is a saving of €1.7 million, which is to be reallocated from a subhead. It relates mainly to the capital expenditure on communications equipment which has been reprioritised to offset additional ICT investment. Are there any comments or questions on it?

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Could the Minister clarify exactly what has been saved?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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It relates mainly to the capital expenditure on communications equipment which had been reprioritised to offset additional ICT investment in A2 administration, non-pay.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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What type of communications equipment is referred to?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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There was nothing in particular earmarked for it. Given that we knew the ICT money would be coming on stream, we were doing the work in the working group and were expecting to be able to allocate it.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I am not clear. What communications equipment is referred to?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Tetra radio system, for which there is a lease contract every year. It cost less than expected. While there are ongoing licence costs which we pay, there was no extra investment in it this year.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Under subhead A9, there was a relatively small saving on witnesses' expenses. It is a demand-led scheme and is very hard to predict. There was a saving of €155,000. Under subhead A10, there was a saving of €2.722 million in compensation due to a reduced number of larger awards falling due for payment in the current year. Subhead A12 was an underspend on the capital building programme of €32 million due to the timing of contracts and payments for the new divisional headquarters. Some €25.356 million is being allocated from this subhead.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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This links with subhead A2 on administration, which includes the maintenance of Garda premises. There was an underspend on capital building and Garda premises. The saving is approximately €4,000 per Garda station. Is the Minister considering reviewing the closure of Garda stations? While she might not open every one of the 139 Garda stations that have been closed, might she consider some of them from a strategic perspective or is it being put down as an operational matter?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The €25 million I mentioned in my opening statement relates to the three Garda headquarters. Not as much was spent on them this year as expected at the beginning of the year. We can transfer only a certain amount of the capital to next year. The rest has been reallocated. There are large, multi-year capital projects which commenced in 2015 and the precise details of each project are managed in conjunction with the OPW. If the Deputy would like, I can provide these details for the three areas, Dublin, Wexford and Galway.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The next subhead is B, appropriations-in-aid. These include additional pension related contributions directly related to payroll and pension costs of approximately €4 million with the balance spread across a number of other non-pay receipt headings such as firearms and cash escort services.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I know the Chairman will not allow my question, but I will ask it anyway.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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If it is related to appropriations-in-aid, it is in order. If not, the Deputy should hold it.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I will have an opportunity later. One of my biggest problems is that politicians are pressurised in terms of Garda numbers and resources. This is not a political comment. The reply to any question that one submits on these issues is that the allocation of gardaí is a matter for the Garda Síochána and not politicians. However, the Estimates are a matter for us. My constituents want more gardaí in our constituency. While I appreciate the Minister is doing everything she can to train new gardaí, it is a major issue which we need to resolve. I take it from the Chairman's friendly attitude that this may not be appropriate. However, it is key. Where can I make the point successfully? It is what people want.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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This is a Supplementary Estimate whereby more money is being allocated to certain subheads, money has been saved on other subheads and the Exchequer is allocating extra funds to make up the balance.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I understand.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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When we deal with the Estimates, the Deputy's issues can come into the debate. This is an extra bit of funding at the end of the year.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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The extra bit in Louth is that 27 new gardaí have been provided as a result of the appalling murder of a garda in our constituency. I do not know if it is an additional cost. The people want the gardaí to be kept in the area, at whatever cost, if any.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Let me respond.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I would prefer if we would stick with the subhead with which we are dealing.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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These are operational matters. Every politician can be approached if there are concerns about activity in their areas, which I understand. We want operational decisions that put gardaí where they are needed. The best way of doing this is to have proper assessments, data and the kind of resources I have been talking about. As the Deputy said, an additional two sergeants and 25 gardaí have been allocated to the Louth Garda division as an interim measure. They have been transferred temporarily from adjoining Garda divisions in the Dublin metropolitan region to support the work of the 283 members assigned to the Louth division. Garda management will continue to keep the allocation of resources in County Louth under continuous review in the context of additional gardaí becoming available for assignment as a result of Garda recruitment. They will also be taking account of crime trends, the demographics and policing priorities, as they always do. The work of local gardaí in Louth division is augmented by a number of Garda national units such as the National Bureau of Crime Investigation, the Criminal Assets Bureau and the Garda National Immigration Bureau.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I accept that.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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While I take the Deputy's point, investment has begun again, after having stopped because of the situation.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I accept all that. I have no issue.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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If there are particular needs in a given area, we need to have greater flexibility regarding moving gardaí to where crime trends are accelerating or there are particular hot spots, and the Garda Commissioner has shown that. This is the idea behind Operation Thor and other initiatives. The Border area was the focus of discussions, and there have been some very good successes regarding fuel laundering.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I agree.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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There have been very good figures from the Revenue and the Customs and Excise this year regarding it.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We are a long way from appropriations-in-aid. Let us try to stick with it. We are almost at the end of this Vote. What is the final net figure when we take into account the extra spend needed and the savings? Is there a balance to be made up by the Exchequer?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The sum is €35.2 million.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That is €32.5 million extra?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. We will move on to Vote 21 - prisons. With regard to subhead A1, administration and pay, there is an extra cost to payroll of €5 million. If any members wish to comment it is on page 12 of the notes.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I have a query which I have raised on a previous occasion. If I do not have the correct subhead then I am happy to wait until we get to that section.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We are talking about additional payroll costs.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Yes. My question concerns the use of Garda resources to bring people who have, for non-payment of fines to-----

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is completely off the topic. Allow me to help, if I can.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Please do.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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This topic is to do with the €5 million extra which is required to meet payroll costs for serving prison staff, it is nothing to do with gardaí.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Yes, it has. Allow me to explain to the Chairman why it has, and I will put it into context. I understand that prison staff are on duty to receive incoming prisoners who are convicted by the courts or who are brought for incarceration for whatever reason. The problem is that thousands of these prisoners are people who have not paid fines, are brought to prisons and are processed in the prisons. They are brought in and released the same day or the day after. This is a huge waste of resources and it has been happening for years. The Minister has introduced legislation to change that situation and I ask her to update the committee on this. The figure runs into tens of thousands of euro and it has a significant impact on the number of staff within the prison. They have to be on duty, yet the prisoner is let out at the end of the day.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O'Dowd refers to the finance legislation which is going to come into effect. The courts have been setting up an IT system to manage it effectively and it is taking a few months to do that but they will be ready to start in early January 2016. Once we have that legislation enacted it will make a substantial difference to the situation outlined whereby people are being brought to prison.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Could the Chairman repeat the heading, for clarity and so I do not stray?

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Subhead A1, administration and pay. It has to do with extra prison officers.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I suspect that my question might come under prisoner services so I may come back in later. Will the Chairman will allow me leeway if I am incorrect in my assessment?

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Yes, if we are dealing with the subhead. If it falls under that we will try to stick to that if we can. Perhaps the Minister can clarify what was the target for the employment control framework and by how much was it breached?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The total ECF for the Prison Service is a staffing level of 3,265. At the start of 2015 the actual wholesome equivalent figures stood at 3,381, which was 116 above the ECF figure. At the end of October 2015 the staffing level is 3,321 which is 56 above the ECF.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. Are there any further comments? No. I now turn to subhead A3, buildings and equipment. There is €1.992 million extra required there and it has to do with development works in Limerick Prison happening earlier than originally planned and €0.5 million for maintenance works throughout the prison estate.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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On subhead A3, I am aware of the work done by the Department of Justice and Equality on the removal of the practice of slopping out in prisons. I assume that part of this budget is for that purpose. Can the Minister indicate if there is a timeline envisaged for the outright eradication of that practice and if there are plans for the expansion of the prison network in general? I suspect it will be in next year's Estimates.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. I will give Mountjoy Prison as an example. The investment in Mountjoy Prison has enabled the elimination of the slopping out practice there and allowed significant reductions in overcrowding, as have capital programmes of investment in Cork Prison and Limerick Prison. Preliminary works have started in Limerick Prison which involved a boundary wall to facilitate the courts PPP development there, and then the development of the prison, which has started earlier than anticipated.

The practice of slopping out will be completely eliminated when the work that needs to be done in Portlaoise Prison is finalised. That is some time ahead but there is a continuous programme of investment in the prisons, as members can see from the capital outflow into that area. Portlaoise Prison will be included when the money becomes available and that will mean the practice of slopping out will have ended.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I have one supplementary question on the overall capacity of our prisons. I have heard a number of figures bandied around and perhaps the Minister could clarify the figure?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The prison system is under total capacity by approximately 200, which is the latest figure. The total figure of 3,671 prisoners were in custody on 8 October 2015. That is an occupancy level of 89% of the IPS bed capacity of 4,126, and 92% of the 3,982 Inspector of Prisons' recommended bed capacity.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I have one question and I apologise if I missed it earlier in the Minister's speech. There is no open prison for female prisoners, which is a huge issue. If male prisoners have that opportunity, and if they are deemed to be no-risk, what is the position on the provision of an open prison for females?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has asked a relevant question and an open prison for females is needed. The Prison Service is examining models that would be best suited for female prisoners who could use an open setting. I have received a preliminary report on the options that might be available. Some countries are using much smaller settings now for suitable female prisoners but it is a project that needs to be developed.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The topic does not arise under these Supplementary Estimates.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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It should.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I now turn to subhead A5, operational services. A figure of €1.02 million is involved for additional requirement which may arise due to increased expense in vehicle maintenance. Also, legal fees paid and the expenses this year exceeded the budget. Does any member wish to comment on that? No. An extra €1 million is needed for compensation. Additional funding is required due to a large number of compensation settlements awards which are falling due for payment in the current year. The timing and quantity of cases is difficult to predict. Are there any comments? No.

I will now turn to appropriations-in-aid, which is a relatively small deficit of €92,000 due to a lower than expected intake of non-payroll related receipts.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Have we missed an item on education services?

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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No, we have not reached it yet.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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My apologies, I was looking at appropriations-in-aid.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will come to it. The next item concerns savings made or reallocated from a subhead, administration, non-pay and the relatively small amount of €92,000. Are there any comments? No.

I now turn to prisoner services, which is €2 million due to cost efficiencies in the use and supply of items such as cleaning materials, catering supplies and other large expense items. A reduction in prisoner numbers has also contributed to the cost savings in this subhead. There is €2.3 million being saved under subhead A4.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Can the Chair direct me as to the subheads under which I should raise the two matters outstanding, one is in regard to drug use-----

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That does not arise here.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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What I am referring to is the availability and, therefore, internal policing of the prisons with regard to-----

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I will explain again what this is about. The Estimates at the start of next year will cover everything. The Supplementary Estimate covers only certain areas that require extra funding or where there were savings made.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Chairman would ask the Minister if any of the additional expenditures or savings were made in areas that related to the effective policing of the prisons in respect of drug use or misuse. My additional query was in regard to the service provided by the Courts Service in transporting prisoners to and from court and whether-----

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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To be helpful, I ask the Deputy to looks at subhead A8, social disadvantage measures. That may be the subhead under which the Deputy can ask that question.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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That is why I asked for direction.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We have not come to it yet, and also under subhead A6.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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To be fair, Chairman, I was asking for direction.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Subheads A6 and A8. We will stick with subhead A2, administration, non-pay, corporate services or administration costs in the prisons. Are there any comments or questions on A2? As there are no questions I move on to subhead A4, prisoner services. It includes cost efficiencies relating to the usage and supply of items such as cleaning materials, catering supplies and other large expenditure items. The reduction in prisoner numbers has also contributed to cost savings in this subhead. The saving in this subhead is €2.3 million.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Is that simply a matter of improved tendering processes or is it something specific?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The reduction in prisoner numbers has also contributed to the cost savings in this subhead as well as what the Chairman has mentioned, cost efficiencies relating to the usage and supply of items such as cleaning materials, catering supplies and other large expenditure items. One is seeing good management here.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I submit that there are certain members of the Dáil who may be gracing the Prison Service in the near future who will be delighted to hear that.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Okay. We move to the next subhead A6, educational services. There was a saving of €165,000, a relatively small saving, linked to the overall decrease in prisoner numbers.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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What are those savings?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The savings are linked to the decrease in prisoner numbers.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that. Prisons contain some of the most disadvantaged in society in terms of educational attainment. In many cases those with serious learning difficulties need as much educational service as they can get to improve their capacity to function on leaving prison, particularly in respect of issues around literacy and health.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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As I have said, the saving is mainly due to the overall decrease in prisoner numbers as opposed to any change in what is available to prisoners. We are very conscious, as is the Prison Service of the absolute importance of work and training opportunities and education. There is a strong emphasis on that. Education services are available in all the institutions and are provided in partnership with the ETBs so that the standards are good. They broadly follow an adult education approach. There are more than 120 workshops and service activities across the prison estate.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I accept all that.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That reduction is not because there has been a reduction in any of those services. It is linked simply to the reduction in prisoner numbers with the focus on community returns for those who have all minor offences.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I will put it a different way. I appreciate the reply the Minister has given me. What I am trying to understand is what is not being done that money is not being spent? On what is money not being spent? In other words, where are the savings being made? Is it that people who were employed to-----

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I am told it is external fees.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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External-----

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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External fees for courses that might have been paid before but the prisoners are not there now so one is not paying for them.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Right.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I assume it includes workshops for the training materials. If there are fewer prisoners there is less costs for training materials.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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So there is no diminution in-----

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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No, there is not.

Photo of Fergus O'DowdFergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Fine. That is okay.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I move to subhead A8, social disadvantage measures. This includes community based health and first aid where there are savings of €189,000. Does Deputy Farrell wish to come in on this subhead?

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I may not have made myself clear earlier. Given the reduction in prisoner numbers it is likely, following the Minister's previous remarks, that the saving is based on that. With regard to diversionary programmes and or policing of the availability of illegal drugs, as opposed to any methadone treatment, within the Prison Service are there any programmes the Minister would like to highlight?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The issue the Deputy has raised of making sure that contraband does not get into prisons is one of high priority. We have to make continuous improvements in this area. It is an international problem. People are often surprised that it is an issue but it is one that is shared internationally. A number of initiatives have been taken. The Deputy has probably heard Michael Donlon, the director of the Prison Service, speak recently about some new initiatives he has put in place. For example, the introduction of the new free confidential telephone line has been good as prisoners, visitors, staff or members can be intimidated. Visitors can be intimidated into bringing in drugs. We are hoping, and it has begun to happen, that members of the public with information on the trafficking of prohibited items will make that known.

There is an increasing number of passive and active dogs which are operational in all prisons. There are five active dog teams in operation. That initiative has been strengthened in recent times. There are also initiatives around the installation of nets over exercise yards, vigilant observation of prisoners by staff, enhanced CCTV monitoring, stricter control of visits and the use of target and random cell searches so there is a lot of work to be done. There has also been the installation of airport style security including scanners and x-ray machines which has helped efforts to tackle the problem. Random searches of cells and their occupants unfortunately still uncover significant quantities of contraband. The Prison Service recognises that it is an area where constant improvements are required.

Photo of Alan FarrellAlan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I had the pleasure of visiting with the committee, Cork prison a couple of years ago. One could see the netting which had been installed there. I appreciate it is required because of the daily onslaught of attempts to bring contraband into our prisons. I am sure it is an extremely difficult job for prisoner officers to deal with. I read in a national publication recently about an individual who had been off drugs for a couple of years and had been in prison for a relatively minor offence and ended up being addicted to certain illicit materials. As it was anecdotal I do not expect the Minister to respond but, obviously, any work that can be done to reduce that would be welcome.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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May I ask a question before we finish on subhead A8? One of the major issues at present, which we debated last night and will do so again tonight, is homelessness. A number of prisoners who leave prison may not have any place to stay or to live. We are aware of organisations such as Care After Prison, the Churchfield Community Trust in Cork and others around the country, who support prisoners. I am aware the Prison Service supports those organisations. Under the social disadvantage measures, can the Minister say anything about that issue, that is, prisoners coming out of prison who may be at risk of homelessness because they have nowhere to go and possibly no family connections and may end up on the street and back on the street again?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman is absolutely correct. If one wants to look at the rehabilitation of offenders, one of the things one has to do is to plan his or exit and ensure the supports are in place when a prisoner is released. The initiative that was launched earlier this week was the Joint Agency Response to Crime, JARC, which brings the Probation Service and the Garda Síochána together. That is really important. One of the issues they want to address for prolific offenders who have served their sentences is to deal with the range of social issues that need to be place if there is any chance of rehabilitation on their release. Housing is clearly part of the solution. There are some good hostels available, voluntary housing and groups that are working and giving a significant number of voluntary hours to help in the rehabilitation of prisoners. Given the current challenges, it is not an easy issue to address but the Probation Service, in particular, co-ordinates the other service to try to ensure he or she is reintegrated into society. There is more pre-release planning than ever before. Everybody, including the Prison Service, recognises that recidivism and people returning to prison is not the answer.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Minister on that point. Let me highlight the good work that is being done by Care after Prison projects. The Churchfield Community Trust in Waterford won an award recently and there are other projects around the country. With a small amount of finance they can do a very significant amount of work. The work they are doing is really impressive.

The net Supplementary Estimate is €6.297 million.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Photo of David StantonDavid Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That concludes our consideration of the Supplementary Estimates for Votes 20 and 21.