Mr. Peter Tyndall:

There is no single, straightforward and easy answer to that question because what the Deputy is asking is how one changes the culture of public life in Ireland. One cannot change it with any single measure or in any single way. It has changed substantially anyway and will continue to change. I think the mention of leadership is fundamental to this. However look at the significant cultural change in our time, casual sexism in the workplace was normal, women had to retire if they married for instance. There were a series of things that were culturally very deeply embedded in Irish society yet they have gone. It is possible to change and we can be optimistic about bringing about change.

In the context of what an ethics regime can do to bring about that change, the first question one must ask is whether, if the things one is describing are interests, and they are interests, they are being captured by the ethics register? Dr. Byrne drew attention earlier, perhaps before Deputy McDonald was here, to the issue of liability, which was picked up by a Senator and that liability can be as much of a determinant of somebody's behaviour as actually having an interest in a positive sense. One of the other things one would look at is people trying to do favours for other people, but often as a consequence of longstanding disagreement people have been known to use their position to damage somebody's interests. So what one has to ensure is that one has a very open and transparent register. I think the Bill goes some way to giving us that but the register must be comprehensive so that all of the things that have been described are actually interests that have to be registered. One cannot describe connectedness in the Bill as one would describe it in a marriage act by the degree of relationship - second cousin twice removed does not come into it - but if somebody enjoys a close friendship or a business partnership with a Member, clearly one could be seen if one acted in a way that favoured them as not having been disinterested. One has to capture that. I think it is a difficult job but that is where one can look elsewhere. Other people have grappled with these problems and have come forward with solutions which are different from ours. I am conscious that the level of gifts that one has to declare and return in Ireland seems significantly more valuable than is the case elsewhere. One example is that one can accept from friends within Ireland, a service at a reduced price, without that being in breach of ethics legislation. Yet that goes to the heart of what the Deputy was describing. I think one needs to look at this in two ways, one of which should be "Is the framework right?" I think having an online register that anybody can look at where everybody has to register is one thing, but the other is the actual set of interests, the correct set of interests both positive and negative interests.

The other point raised was privacy. Dealing with privacy is a very tricky issue and the constitutional position in Ireland makes it probably more complex. It seems that for those of us who operate in the public domain that in stepping into that domain, whether it is an office such as the one I hold or an elected office, one has to be prepared to forgo some of that privacy in order to deal with the perceptions of possible influence.

It is a difficult one but one with which I think people with grapple. Nonetheless, if one tries to hide under a cloak of privacy things that people would regard as corrupt eventually public life will be brought into disrepute, which then becomes a problem.

In terms of sanctions, the particular point made by the Deputy deserves a lot of thought. If one denies people their elected representative that causes a genuine problem because those constituents would then be disadvantaged as compared to individuals in other constituencies, although it still may be right to have that level of sanction available. That question that must then be asked - and this is a question for Members rather than us - is whether a high level of sanction is required for very extreme breaches.