Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I do not disagree with Deputy McGrath. It is interesting for observers such as myself to read about inconsistencies in the application of bail laws and in sentencing. I do not necessarily mean that I read about these cases in the tabloid newspapers.

It is incumbent on us to ensure the Bill is given a thorough hearing. Bail laws must strike a delicate balance between the rights of the citizenry and the civil rights of individuals who have committed crimes in terms of whether they are incarcerated or have to make good for their crime in some other form. In many cases, I do not have any difficulty with electronic tagging. This procedure should be funded to a much greater extent than at present, not only to free up space in the prisons. In that regard, I thank Ms Malone for pointing out that six of the 14 prisons in the State were overcrowded either last week or this week. Such statistics are not often placed in the public domain.

I represent north Dublin, and we all know that several years ago the State paid the Thornton Hall landowner €30 million for a farm worth €300,000. The State, via the Prison Service, has invested a substantial amount in that project, with no results. Significant investment is required in the prisons, including at least one prison in Dublin, to bring them up to a reasonable standard. This is clear from the level of overcrowding in the prisons. While tagging and better application of the bail laws will remove people from prisons and more gardaí will deter people from committing crimes and, I hope, reduce the overall number of individuals incarcerated in the prison system, at the same time, it is clear that we need at least one and possibly even two new prisons. I will leave it to the experts to make a determination on that issue.

Society has moved away from the "eye for an eye" view of crime, whereby a person who commits a crime should be locked up and the key possibly thrown away, depending on the severity of the crime.

We need to employ more innovative approaches and international best practice in terms of rehabilitating individuals within our prison service. That means treating them with dignity, giving them an outlet and ensuring, for example, that prisons are completely free from drugs. Let us suppose a person is addicted to drugs when going into the care of the Prison Service. We have read of cases over the years - I imagine the deputations have come across them too - of individuals who go into prison clean but come out addicted to drugs. In a societal sense, that is horrific. The State is effectively sponsoring that by locking them behind a wall and allowing such things to occur. I am firm in my view that we should have a zero-drugs policy in prisons. People should go in and come out clean. I do not care what the cost is in terms of the human cost or the addictive step-down that occurs. That is the nature of the incarceration as far as I am concerned.

I wanted to touch on some other things with regard to comments made by the deputation. I was rather confused by something Ms Malone mentioned. She referred to the lack of gardaí or the reduction in the number of gardaí in the context of a bail discussion. Why was that mentioned? Ms Malone can reply in a moment. I wish to ask some more questions and then the Chairman can wrap up.

Ms Mulcahy made a statement to the effect that there is not much empirical data on figures that are in the public domain relating to those who are committing burglaries. The Minister has made statements with regard to certain percentages on the matter. Anyway, Ms Mulcahy used the word "fact" and continued to the effect that most burglaries are carried out by those who suffer from addiction but yet she did not know. I do not believe it is possible to make a statement like that and use the word "fact" in the context of an Oireachtas hearing. It is essential, as Deputy Finian McGrath adequately outlined and as far as I am concerned, that the inconsistencies in the application of bail laws are addressed. Ms Malone - or perhaps Ms Duffy - was right to say that we do not read about the reduction in certain crime categories and that we only read about the salacious material that sells newspapers - let us be honest about it - or, in certain instances, the horrific crimes, such as the murder of an on-duty garda and such things. As a member of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, my view is that availability of training to members of the Judiciary is required in terms of the implementation of bail laws. I agree wholeheartedly with Ms Malone about the publication of decisions in writing. It should be an essential component of a functioning judicial service. There should be no question over whether it should be requested. It should be automatic. Ms Malone has my full support on that point.

I had another point that I was going to raise.