Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The first session today is with the Minister for Health and his officials. I remind members to turn off their mobile phones as they can interfere with the broadcast of the meeting and it is difficult for staff. Apologies have been received from Deputies Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Ciara Conway and Sandra McLellan.

I welcome the Minister for Health, Deputy Leo Varadkar, and his officials from the Department of Health, Ms Deirdre Walsh, principal officer and Mr. Kieran Duffy, assistant principal officer. The item for consideration at this session is the Health and Social Care Professionals Act 2005 (Section 4(7)) (Membership of Council) Regulations 2015. A briefing note on the regulations and correspondence from interested organisations have been circulated to members. I remind members that this item must be disposed of before 22 October 2015. I will ask the Minister to address the committee, after which each spokesperson can respond and then members can join the discussion. Is that agreed? Agreed. I invite the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, to make his opening statement.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman for this opportunity to address the Joint Committee on Health and Children to give the background to these resolutions, to advise members why they are necessary and to provide the committee with an update on the implementation of the Health and Social Care Professionals Act 2005 to date. The Joint Committee on Health and Children is being asked to consider motions that both Houses of the Oireachtas approve the draft regulations to increase the membership of the Health and Social Care Professional Council. The purpose of these technical regulations is to increase the lay membership of the Health and Social Care Professional Council by two to restore the lay majority on the council. The background is that the professional membership of the council increased by two as a result of the designation of the two optical professions of optometrist and dispensing optician under the Health and Social Care Professionals Act 2005 on 31 December 2014. The designation of the two optical professions was one of the legislative measures to permit the transfer of the regulation of these professions from the Opticians Act 1956 to the 2005 Act on 31 October next. I subsequently established the Optical Registration Board and appointed two of its professional members to the council.

The Act provides for the appointment by the Minister for Health of council members comprising a non-registrant chairperson, a professional member for each of the designated professions, originally 12, and 12 others. It has been the policy and practice to appoint lay people to the 12 non-professional positions to ensure a lay majority of one on the formerly 25 member council, comprising one lay chairperson, 12 professional members and 12 lay members. The designation of the two optical professions increased the professional membership to 14 but the lay membership currently remains at 13, including the chairperson. To restore the original balance, I am proposing to make these regulations. Section 4(7) of the Act provides for the varying of council membership as the Minister considers necessary or expedient in view of the increase in the number of designated professions. The regulations will provide for an increase by two in the membership of the council by increasing the number to be appointed to represent the public interest from six to eight. I intend appointing lay people to these two new positions from a panel of candidates which has been provided by the Public Appointments Service.

The Act also provides that such regulations may be made only if a draft of the proposed regulations has been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and a resolution approving the draft has been passed by each House. The remainder of my written statement relates to the work of CORU in general and is not pertinent to this particular regulation but I will leave it on the record.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his statement.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are aware that because there is legislation in place, the regulation has to be passed by a certain time. We have learned from other councils and oversight bodies that lay majorities are critical. There are concerns from other professions about the regulation of physical therapists and physiotherapists and it is an issue we would like to discuss at some stage, but I will leave it for another time. The committee has received correspondence from representative organisations and the committee should delve into it to see if we can come up with ideas to ensure the integrity and the independence of the professions is protected. I am unsure if there is a deadline regarding those issues and this Act but it is an issue causing a great deal of concern. I have nothing more to add to this discussion but I want to revisit the issue at another stage. I would appreciate comment from the Minister on that.

Colm Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and thank him for his presentation. I agree with Deputy Kelleher's point and while it does not relate directly to the regulation, and while it is always very important that regulations are properly scrutinised and implemented, an issue has been brought to our attention by the Irish Association of Physical Therapists. It is concerned that physical therapists do not come under the new regulations and new criteria relating to physiotherapists. The association has looked for an opportunity to give a short presentation to this committee. There are more than 300 physical therapists in the country who believe they would be outside the regulation which would cause some problems for them. They are anxious to be regulated and they have genuine concerns about their involvement in future and the way the matter is being dealt with. They want to work with physiotherapists, GPs and the HSE in every way possible, but to do that they need to be included in the process.

Dan Neville (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I support the Minister's motion. It is important there is a lay majority relative to the regulated professions. This was debated at length in the course of the introduction of the Bill. I wish to raise the issue of the regulation of the psychotherapist and counselling professions. A commitment was made ten years ago that psychotherapy and counselling would be regulated. They were not regulated under the original Health and Social Care Professionals Act because the voluntary organisations could not agree at the time. The then Minister of State with responsibility for disability and mental health, former Deputy Tim O'Malley, made very clear that if there had been agreement on the matter, those professions could have been regulated at that stage. A commitment was also made 12 months earlier in 2004 during a debate in the Seanad on the same issue, so it is almost 11 years since the original commitment was made. During the tenure of the then Minister of State with responsibility for equality, disability and mental health, former Deputy John Moloney, the Psychological Therapies Forum issued a report on the matter and it has been debated over the years. It is almost two years since the former Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, informed the chairman of the Health and Social Care Professionals Council, CORU, that he intended in the public interest to designate by regulation the professions of counselling and psychotherapy under section 4(2) of the Health and Social Care Professionals Act.

That has been ongoing for two years. At the time we were told it could take some time - possibly two years - for any regulation to take place. I do not know what has happened since, other than commitments have been made that this should be the case.

During the amendment of the Bill two years ago in this committee we indicated the concern about the regulation of counselling and psychotherapy services. Anybody can be a counsellor in a psychotherapy service. He or she can put up a brass plate, charge €60, €70, €80 or €90 and say he or she is a counsellor - a marriage counsellor, a psychological counsellor or a suicide ideation counsellor. I will give the Minister some examples because he was not here for the debate. I have a brochure on an advanced diploma in suicide studies. As the Minister knows, suicide is a serious issue, but I will not go into it because we have already debated it. There are two weekend programmes on suicide prevention, two on suicide intervention measures and two on suicide post-intervention and bereavement counselling.

Bodywhys has been extremely concerned for some time about the counselling that takes place for people suffering from eating disorders. Another example is a diploma course on practitioner skills in dealing with eating disorders. The Minister knows how complex such disorders are; they involve psychiatric, psychological, emotional and physical problems. It is run over six weekends. There is another example of a course that took place in the Fitzgerald hotel at Newlands Cross over 12 weekends, starting around 11 a.m. on the Saturday and ending shortly after midday on the Sunday. It cost over €3,000. People are being informed and believe they are qualified to deal with something as complex as eating disorders. Therefore, one can understand the concerns of Bodywhys about the complaints that it receives about the counselling people with very serious disorders receive and who see those providing the counselling as being qualified.

The Minister might think these courses are for people who are qualified, but I got my secretary to apply to participate in this course. She has no interest and has never been involved in anything to do with mental health issues or otherwise. She received a reply with a booking form for the year enclosed. It stated training would commence on Saturday, 27 March, that no hard copies of the module information had been printed up for the next course but that it was available to look at online. She was asked to ring to confirm her attendance.

I have made my point and I am sorry for taking so much time. I know that it is a different issue but it is related.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will be short and sweet.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I support the motion on the technical regulations to restore a lay majority on the council. Any opportunity to have lay people involved in an organisation is good.

Like Deputy Billy Kelleher and Senator Colm Burke, I am concerned about the position of physical therapists and physiotherapists, by whom we have all been lobbied. There over 300 physical therapists practising in the country. A member of my extended family enjoyed huge success in visiting a physical therapist on a number of occasions. There is an opportunity to look at and outline what the problems of the people concerned are and why they believe they may lose out as a result of what is being put in place. I hope the Minister will reply to some of the points made.

I agree with Deputy Dan Neville who raised a very important point. On a regular basis, I meet people who tell me they have visited all kinds of counsellor. When I look at their cases, it reminds me of the time when FÁS was in place. My husband spent seven years trying to be a carpenter and joiner - I should not say trying to be because he is a carpenter - but I remember trying to convince somebody who had taken a six-month FÁS course that he was a full-blown carpenter. It reminds me of the days when people thought they could sign up, take a course and consider themselves to be fully qualified. There are many courses that I would call yellow pack courses. People are hoodwinked into signing up and thinking a certificate is the be all and end all. It is something that needs to be looked at and regulated better.

I have nothing further to say about the Minister's proposal other than that I agree with it.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Fine Gael)
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As a former intercounty manager of the Louth senior football team, I am lucky that I understand there is a difference between a physical therapist and a physiotherapist. Because of the proposed regulations and legislation to be introduced in 2016, it is very important that the public understand that there is a massive difference between the two. There is also a massive difference between their qualifications. Is someone has a very serious injury, for their safety it is important that they be looked after by the right person. I commend the Chairman for giving both organisations an opportunity to express their opinions before the regulations and the legislation are introduced in 2016. It all comes down to safety and the qualifications of the individuals involved. I thank the Minister for his introduction.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We have received correspondence from Mr. David Cross of the Irish Association of Physical Therapists and from Emma Stokes of the World Confederation for Physical Therapy. The correspondence is available on the committee's database.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I will deal first with the issue of the difference between physiotherapy and physical therapy. As Deputies and Senators are aware, I am examining the issue of protecting the title "physical therapist" and considering whether, on balance, it is in the public interest to protect the title in the Act in order to reduce the potential for confusion in the public mind in the services offered by physiotherapists and by non-physiotherapists offering musculoskeletal therapies. There is confusion. Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick has probably never been confused, but I was. I asked a few people if they knew what the difference was and they were pretty much all wrong. Earlier this year I wrote to a number of relevant organisations about my proposal to protect the title "physical therapist" and invited them to submit their views. The deadline for the receipt of submissions passed less than three weeks ago. The submissions are being examined by my officials and I expect to be able to make a decision on the matter in the coming weeks once I have received and considered the submissions. There are many factors to be considered.

I assure the committee that my main concern is to protect members of the public who are my responsibility, as Minister for Health, when it comes to any decision in this regard, rather than the interests of any individual profession, although, of course, its views will be taken into account as a key stakeholder and affected party.

As members will be aware, psychotherapists and counsellors are not currently regulated under the Health and Social Care Professionals Act 2005. However, the Act provides that the Minister for Health may designate a health and social care profession not already designated if it is considered that it is in the public interest to do so. My predecessor, the Minister, Deputy Reilly, wrote to the Health and Social Care Professionals Council last year seeking advice on the question of specifically designating counsellors and psychotherapists under the 2005 Act. A number of issues require clarification and there are varying views among the different professional bodies representing counsellors and psychotherapists in Ireland. The main questions to be resolved include whether counselling and psychotherapy should be treated as one profession or two for the purpose of regulation, the exact titles of the profession that should be protected and the minimum qualifications that would be required of the applicants for registration. As members will appreciate, these are not straightforward questions. The readiness and compatibility of the professions for designation under the 2005 Act also needs to be determined. The council's detailed report has now been received and is being examined by my Department with a view to deciding on the next steps, which, it is envisaged, will include a wider range of consultation involving the various professional bodies and other interested parties. It is intended to hold that consultation, either in the last quarter of this year or the first quarter of next year.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for being here this afternoon. Is it agreed that the committee recommends there should be further debate on the motion in the Dáil? Agreed.