Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I remind members about the rules regarding the use of mobile phones. The meeting has been convened for the purpose of the consideration by the committee of a report by the Irish Music Rights Organisation on the socio-economic contributions of music to the Irish economy. It is proposed that this part of the meeting will conclude at approximately 3.30 p.m., after which there will be a break of five minutes. We will resume in private session at approximately 3.35 p.m.

I welcome the following witnesses from the Irish Music Rights Organisation, IMRO: Mr. Victor Finn, chief executive officer; Mr. Brendan Griffin, director of licensing; and Mr. Keith Johnson, director of marketing and membership. I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. It is proposed that all opening statements and any other documents the witnesses have submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after the meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Victor Finn:

I am the chief executive officer of the Irish Music Rights Organisation. I am accompanied by my colleagues, Mr. Brendan Griffin, the director of licensing, and Mr. Keith Johnson, the director of marketing and membership. I thank members for the opportunity to address the committee on the topic of our recently published report, The Socio-Economic Contribution of Music to the Irish Economy.

We commissioned Deloitte to undertake this study. Consultations were conducted with IMRO members and with key industry representatives, including artists, labels, publishers, songwriters, management companies and retail and broadcast personnel. The findings demonstrate real opportunities for the sector, which currently supports over 11,000 jobs and contributes almost €500 million annually to the Irish economy.

The report highlights a number of areas where action could be taken, including finance, market access, intellectual property, education, training and collaboration. It outlines a number of recommendations, including: establishing a music industry task force with representatives from Government, the business community and industry to reinvigorate the sector and encourage collaboration; appointing what we have termed an "IP tsar" to consider the impact of intellectual property and copyright legislation and enforcement in both music and technology industries; the development of advanced training courses for music professionals to focus on the business of music education, particularly for early career musicians; greater collaboration among the music, tourism, gaming and technology sectors; greater support for musicians, many of whom are self-employed, in accessing finance and ensuring any fiscal supports are effective and appropriately structured; and the establishment of a music office, Music Ireland, to act as a focal point for the music industry, similar to the Irish Film Board, which would provide assistance to individuals in the music sector and those looking to enter new overseas markets.

These policy interventions have the potential to increase activity and jobs in the sector. The music industry is fully committed to taking the lead on these initiatives but Government support remains crucial in terms of the speed at which progress can be made. There is a will within the music industry to push forward but collaboration is the key if we are to maximise the positive effects on Ireland's reputation for culture and creativity. We are happy to address any specific issues the Chairman or members of the committee may have.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the representatives from IMRO. I am delighted they have come before the committee because there is no doubt music is one of the most important industries we have at present. In the context of tourism, it is huge. One need only read the various surveys carried out over the years, in which people were asked what they did while they were in Ireland, to discover that the vast majority engage with music in some form, whether at a festival or a concert, in a pub or whatever. There is also the community aspect of music, which plays an important role in strengthening people’s morale and encouraging them in many other ways. The statistic of 11,500 who gain employment through music is only a small part of its monetary aspect. It does provide very important employment.

I compliment IMRO on the report. It is exceptionally well done. There has been wide consultation with all the partners involved in music. There is no doubt that the message - not just the statistics but what IMRO hopes to achieve - is very well laid out. What does IMRO see the task force, which is central to its vision for the future, doing? Does it see it as an official or semi-official task force, possibly appointed by the Government? All of that is important.

The almost 50% decrease in sales of recorded music in recent times is a huge challenge and has happened in a very short period. Does IMRO feel the task force has a role to play in that regard? The music offices are interesting as IMRO seems to be trying to give status or an official profile to the importance of the music industry. At one point the report refers to the things we take for granted, which is quite right. The witnesses might touch on that when they respond. We do take for granted what is there. If we were dealing with any other industry, whether construction or agriculture, it would be a constant topic of debate and discussion. IMRO is right to try to bring music as a career and a community and broadcasting expression centre stage. Do the witnesses think the task force is sufficient?

IMRO refers to financing and I presume that, as in all areas, it must set out its stall about where that is most needed. I agree that up-and-coming artists make a very big decision and take a huge risk when setting out. We all know of people who buy their first guitar or whistle and work away at home hoping that some day they will reach a stage where they will be accepted as important and develop a career. Can something be done in that regard within the educational system? Music forms an integral part of education but more often perceived as a cultural expression or a hobby. Very often, guidance counsellors direct young people towards the type of employment they might consider. Is there something within the educational system that might be of assistance in that context? The manner in which IMRO has laid out the results of its survey and the report is quite graphic and straightforward.

The figures are clear, but Mr. Finn is requesting the committee to consider sending a recommendation to the appropriate Departments on the issues he has raised in order that they might be considered in a proactive way rather than leaving them on the long finger.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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That is a good suggestion which we can discuss later in our deliberations. I agree entirely with it.

Mr. Victor Finn:

I thank the Senator. "Yes" is the answer to his first question on the task force. We would see it being appointed by the Government, with representatives on it from the Departments of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Communications and Natural Resources and, possibly, Finance. We would require representatives from at least three of these Departments. The music industry and wider commercial expertise from outside it should also be available to the task force. In, particular, the task force should comprise people from within the industry, together with representatives of the various Departments involved. It should be time limited and not have an open-ended remit. We believe that within a period of two and a half to three years it should be in a position to drive home most of the recommendations made in this report with the intention of having them become Government policy across the various Departments. We are talking about a focused group, with industry and departmental experts working over a relatively short period. It would provide strategic leadership and direction in tackling some of the main issues we have identified in the report.

The Senator rightly pointed to the significant fall in sales of recorded music, in particular in the past five to six years. IMRO has been to the forefront in ensuring the licensing of new online services providing music, be it through streaming or downloading. This makes music available to consumers in a form they want and at a time they expect. That means that the creative community is receiving remuneration for the use of its work in the online environment, but that does not mean that all uses of music in the online environment are licensed. In the report we have called for the appointment of what we have termed "an IP czar" who would be a copyright expert to lead policy in the area of intellectual property and copyright. There are significant opportunities not just to follow but also to lead European policy in this regard.

There are significant problems with the manner in which European copyright legislation is being implemented in member states. The safe harbour provisions in the European copyright directive, for example, provide opportunities for those who wish to minimise their licensing fees to do so. This is one area where we believe significant progress could be made. The creative community is suffering because its remuneration has dropped alarmingly in the past five to seven years. That is at the expense of large technology companies the income of which is entirely dependent on the use of creative works, but the commensurate level of remuneration for these works bears no relation to the use the companies derive from them. Therefore, there needs to be a rebalancing of the remuneration of the creative sector compared to the benefits the technology industry generates. This issue is high on the agenda in Brussels and Ireland could and should take a leading role in dealing with it.

We believe a music office would provide an opportunity to have more structured support for the music sector. In many organisations, such as the Arts Council, Culture Ireland, First Music Contact and IMRO, funding is available for new entrants into the industry to break into overseas markets. We believe if that was centred in one music office, in the same vein as the film board acts for film, it would be far more beneficial for new entrants into the industry and could lead to significant growth. In many cases, the domestic market is not big enough to sustain a career in the music industry currently and many of our new entrants need opportunities for overseas earnings to subvent their income, especially at the start. We would see a music office as possibly providing repayable grants over a period of time, depending on the levels of success. We believe it would be self-funding. Most of the recommendations in our report are not overly expensive in terms of draws on the Exchequer.

Financing is related to the point the Senator raised and also to the area of a music office. The banking sector and some arms of the State engaged in promoting industry do not seem to understand the creative industries and how they deliver returns to the country not only in terms of copyright but through other invisible earnings. The Senator rightly pointed out the benefits that accrue to tourism directly because of the availability and the popularity of music as an entertainment medium throughout the State. Our tourism industry has grown substantially in recent years. The principal reason many people come to Ireland - research has borne this out - is because of the entertainment value music provides them with when they arrive here. The indirect benefits of music to the economy are also significant. My colleague, Mr. Keith Johnson, will deal with the issue of education and training.

Mr. Keith Johnson:

Education and skills development and continuous development are important across any industry, particularly in the music industry. The report has highlighted that there is definite skills gap, particularly in the area of professional development for music professionals. We note there is a requirement to bolster this area in order to give a gear change to the industry as we move forward.

In terms of the schools and third level, it is important to build on what is currently happening in schools and to have a better co-ordinated approach to music education. It is not that this is not happening within the schools sector, it is just that very often there is not a co-ordinated approach and, in many cases, music is not seen as a viable career. We want to foster a notion that there is a long-term career path and an expectation that one can develop a career in music. Putting in place mentorship programmes for students would be an important aspect of any programmes that would emerge from any initiatives with which a music office might assist.

We would also like there to be a greater contribution towards initiatives that encourage creativity through teaching at primary and post-primary levels. The intention is to generate the idea that music is a viable career path and should not be seen simply as being a hobby. Culturally, in Ireland, music is seen very much as something one does as hobby rather than something one pursues as a career path.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the delegation for its presentation. The Senator has already touched on many of the questions. As a music lover myself and someone who loves going to concerts and festivals, as well as growing up in a pub, I understand the importance of music. At home when I was younger, I would have been guilty, like everybody else, of streaming or downloading music and songs which is obviously a significant problem for the smaller artist, particularly Irish artists. What does the Irish Music Rights Organisation see as its role in educating people of the damage that this does? How would it encourage people not to do this?

There has been much change in film viewing over the past several years. No longer do only television channels show movies but one has YouTube, Snapchat and other different social media formats which have made it easier for people to get involved. This has also made it more difficult for people to make money and promote themselves. How does IMRO see itself in the social media aspect of this?

The Government could do more to help. In its report, IMRO stated the taking up of a number of its recommendations means it could increase its contribution for €14 million to €25 million. Will the delegation expand on that? Does it consider that Irish radio and television stations do enough to promote Irish music?

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Is there a figure for how much illegal downloading actually costs the industry? How pervasive is the extent of illegal downloading? What is being done - or not done - to prevent that from happening?

Mr. Victor Finn:

We do not have a figure on the costs of illegal downloads. I do not want to minimise the problem because it is still an issue but it is not as big a problem as it once was. Some of the newer methods of distributing music online, for example streaming, are now fully licensed. In the online area, we have adopted a three-pronged approach. There is education, especially in the youth area with a schools programme, part of which highlights the importance of copyright and earnings for the creative community and, in particular, musicians. The second stage is to ensure all services are licensed, as much as we can. The third stage is enforcement. If a provider is not licensed, we seek to have them licensed.

There are two tiers in how streaming works. There is premium streaming where one pays a monthly membership fee to stream on a monthly basis. Then there is free streaming which is supported by advertising. Both are legal services. The streaming services would like people to transfer to the premium model. This model is delivering reasonable returns to copyright owners. We are still in this evolving market where streaming services are trying to migrate people from the advertising model to the premium service model. They are being slowly successful in that but it will take more time for it to bear more fruit for the creative community.

Side by side with that, one has services which allow access to music online where they are refusing to be licensed or they are what we would term under-licensed, in that they are claiming the exceptions available to them under the safe harbour provisions. Some very large companies claim exceptions to copyright regarding many of these uses that go through their networks. This continues to be an issue and needs to be addressed, not just at Irish level but at European level.

In relation to radio and the amount of airplay artists receive, we think that is an issue the task force would be ideally suited to address, once it is made up of industry experts and people from the relevant Departments. It is one issue that could be addressed. I would also add that given the development of downloading, streaming in particular, and curating of content on streaming services, radio continues to be very influential in discovering new artists, both online and on social media. I agree that social media are also very important in that role; therefore, we should not just confine ourselves to concerning ourselves with the issue of radio. That environment is also changing by the day, but, nonetheless, it is an important issue and something we would like to see a task force address at the earliest opportunity.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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The delegates are very welcome. It is important to emphasise that music is a business as well as being culture and education. Reference was made to the more than 11,000 people involved in the industry and the capacity for further employment. Putting it on what one could call a more regularised footing would be advantageous.

When one speaks about Irish music, perhaps the correct terminology is traditional music, but must people refer to it as Irish music? There are many genres of Irish music, leading to folk and other types, but one thinks of Irish music in the context of the Irish Music Rights Organisation, IMRO. Does IMRO represent people with recording labels?

Mr. Victor Finn:

No.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I believe they have a different organisation to represent them. IMRO is a voluntary organisation, but it is licensed for copyright music, as well as the other organisation. Is there a transfer of people between the organisations because one starts off as an individual performer without a recording label? Do artists stay with IMRO or do they leave if they get a recording contract?

There is no fee for membership of IMRO, but is everyone entitled to protection from it? Do artists source IMRO or does it source them? What is the membership like?

We take music for granted. In addition to the economic benefit, there is a health benefit to music. Recent research into Alzheimer's disease has shown the benefits of music and how taking up a musical instrument can help to prevent Alzheimer's disease. The benefits are so good, but the information does not get the airplay it deserves. Music is important in the economic sphere and enterprise, but it should also be considered from the health perspective. It is taken for granted.

We all know that tourists go to Irish pubs, but they do not even have to come to Ireland to hear Irish music because the concept of the Irish pub has travelled, as has Irish music. I compliment Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú's group, Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, and the support it provides for traditional Irish musicians. A plan for Irish music is required and the task force is necessary. The Chairman said he would look further at the recommendation that a task force be set up.

Reference was made to the tax exemption to be spread over a period of years. I presume the proposal has already been sent to the Minister for Finance. One could have a great three or four months in one year, but it might not be the same in the next year. That is a matter that should be examined, in addition to having a music office.

Will Mr. Finn clarify the position on people who transfer from being represented by a label to being represented by IMRO?

Mr. Victor Finn:

The easiest way to answer the Senator's first point is, if someone has rights to a musical work, that is, he or she is a songwriter, and is an artist who releases on his or her own label, he or she is entitled to copyright protection from IMRO for the musical work and its broadcasting.

Artists are entitled to copyrights from IMRO in terms of musical work and the broadcasting of it. Such artists are also entitled to royalties from Phonographic Performance Ireland, PPI, which is the representative body for the record labels. If the artist is own-label, he or she would be entitled to join both PPI and IMRO concurrently. There are separate rights and the artist would receive separate payments in respect of them. Many artists now release on their own labels and are, effectively, SMEs; it is a small cottage industry for them. They are entitled to join both organisations.

I agree on the health benefits issue. We deliberately themed the discussion around the social and economic benefits of music. The health benefits are certainly well documented in research. I thank the Senator for bringing that to our attention.

We have asked for the artist's exemption to be evened out over a period of years rather than it having to be availed of in any one given year. The earnings from an album, for example, can occur over a period of three, four or five years and it would be a fairer exploitation of the exemption that is available, especially to up-and-coming artists. It is only available up to a certain level. It is particularly directed at smaller-earning artists and is therefore directed where it is particularly needed. We would like to see it extended over the four or five year period.

Did the Senator have any other questions?

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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It think that was it.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our guests this afternoon. I strongly agree that the music industry greatly contributes to the overall economy. I believe music and its many offshoots have a massive impact on tourism, in particular. Senator Ó Murchú would support me in saying the Fleadh Cheoil was an enormous success in promoting Irish culture and heritage and the Irish music tradition nationally and internationally. It has also been extremely beneficial to tourism in Sligo and the north west for the last two years. It brings huge numbers of visitors to Sligo town and the wider region. The Fleadh brought an estimated 400,000 in 2015 and over 350,000 in 2014. It is also estimated that in 2014, the music festival was worth almost €40 million to the local economy in Sligo and would have been closer to €50 million in 2015. Local hotels, restaurants, pubs, small businesses and the general public all benefited financially from the promotion of the festival. Many residents leased out their rooms.

While the rewards to the local economy were enormous, only €90,000 in specific Government funding was allocated to the Fleadh Cheoil in 2015. I am sure we will all agree that this was returned in full by the spending that took place over the duration of the event. There could be greater support offered, with a possible focus on promoting certain acts - for example, new and emerging artists. I am sure the witnesses would all support that.

The second example I want to discuss is the Sligo Live music festival. I see from the witnesses' report that IMRO is prominently involved in the sponsorship and promotion of music in Ireland, including Sligo Live. The festival has been running for the past 12 years and has grown into a major music festival in the north west. Only yesterday I met a delegation of the Sligo Live organisers, and I have with me the programme for this year's festival, which takes place from 21 to 26 October.

It is unfortunate that specific Government festival funding for Sligo Live was drastically reduced by 60% in 2015. For over a decade, the festival had always received in the region of €50,000. This year, that was reduced to €20,000. No festival can receive that large a grant cut and be expected to provide the same level of service. Both young and very well-established artists are playing the festival. This needs to be re-examined in the near future.

Fáilte Ireland's policy on the funding of music festivals seems to have changed this year. I will seek a meeting with Fáilte Ireland in that regard because the loss of a festival such as Sligo Live would have a major damaging effect on Sligo's tourism product. Sligo Live is more than a music festival in that it offers new artists the opportunity to grow and develop and it attracts music tourists to the region, which is only beginning to expand its tourism potential. It takes place in October when the tourism season is over and there are few festivals taking place elsewhere. It is unfortunate that this year the Sligo Live festival is in a very challenging position financially. I would be fully supportive of greater investment by the Government in the Irish music industry.

What percentage of IMRO funding is available for sponsorship of festivals around the country? How does IMRO undertake the allocation of funding? What is IMRO's stance on the funding of music festivals such as those I have listed? Does IMRO have a part to play in the development of the smaller music festivals throughout the country?

Mr. Keith Johnson:

Although our primary role is to collect and distribute royalties, we do have a long-standing policy of fostering and developing new music creation throughout the country. We sponsor a large number of festivals throughout the country, and not just festivals but music education programmes and song contests. Sligo Live is a festival we have sponsored for a number of years, principally the new and emerging artists stages at the festival. We also sponsor Sligo jazz festival, and have done so for a number of years. We have also sponsored the Other Voices festival in Dingle, the Christy Hennessy song contest in Tralee, which will take place at the end of the month; and Song School, which is the national programme where IMRO members go into schools to teach children about the craft of song writing and the need to respect copyright. BEO is another schools programme which was initiated in Donegal and has spread throughout the country as well. We provide support for a large number of song contests and festival, principally the smaller ones. Typically, the funding we provide is a small amount of money. Not only do we provide financial support, we also provide promotional support. We use our network of communications channels to help provide promotional support for the various different events taking place around the country. That is beyond the financial contribution we provide as well.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Does Mr. Finn wish to make any final comment?

Mr. Victor Finn:

As I said in my closing comments, we believe the recommendations contained in the report have the potential to boost what we term GVA, the gross value added, of the industry by up to €25 million per annum and over a period of three to five years to create up to 800 jobs. We have asked Deloitte as part of the research to do a cost-benefit analysis on the benefits accruing, as opposed to the cost to the Exchequer. It informed us that for every one euro invested, between €4.10 and €7.40 could be generated by the industry. That compares very favourably with any other sectors where there is State involvement and encouragement. The economics of the case for assistance are clear. We think the first stage is the formation of a task force without delay so that we can get on and do the work that needs to be done.

Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I apologise for being late. The work that IMRO carries out rightly defends those involved in the music industry, whether writers or otherwise, who historically were probably taken for granted and got very little return for their creative work.

We all like to listen to music and pubs and other places like to play the music, but not many of them want to pay for it if they can avoid doing so. That is putting it bluntly, but I could be more sharp about it. The directors of IMRO include Mick Hanly and Eleanor McEvoy. Obviously, there is a very small population base and if a performer cannot break into the island off this island, it is quite limited in terms of earning a living, which is a pity for gifted people. IMRO's work is valuable.

I was thinking of the late Brian Friel the other day. A playwright or an author automatically receives copyright protection, but it is completely different for a songwriter in Ireland. I welcome what the delegate said about the task force, which is needed and I would be very supportive of it.

I have never liked the term "Irish music". I heard it mentioned the other night in reference to Hozier who is a fine singer and a very good songwriter. The same is true of U2. Let us face it - it is rock and roll, not the Kilfenora Céilí Band, of which I am a great admirer. I know that there are some very good céilí bands in Cork, but they are not as good as the Kilfenora Céilí Band which has been around for more than 100 years. I see Bono being praised for having a super group, but it is hard to beat a band that has been around for 100 years, which is what it has managed to do.

Others, including Senator Susan O'Keeffe, referred to the Sligo festival. Technology is everything now. The great thing about the fleadh in Sligo is that it has brought it into an urban environment. I came across people living in my estate who generally would not talk about traditional Irish music and who, because it was on television, as people do with their fingers when they are not texting, changed channels. It is amazing that in an urban centre, probably for the first time ever, music is fed into people's homes on their television screens and most are impressed by the number of young people who are playing. These young people from throughout the country are fine musicians and it is technology meeting what is our traditional music, which is very positive.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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The committee might be interested in the statistic that 1.1 million people watched the fleadh cheoil on television.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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On TG4.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The Deputy is quite right that it was unique.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Johnson mentioned promotional funding through IMRO. Is there a greater percentage for promotional events such as Sligo Live and others? Is it promotional funding rather than a financial contribution?

Mr. Keith Johnson:

It is a straightforward financial contribution that we give for an event and the event organisers decide how to spread it out. In terms of our effort on the other side and how it equates, the lion's share is the financial contribution.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Will we have an opportunity at a later stage to consider making recommendations?

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I suggest the Senator make some proposals and we can do it now. I am broadly in agreement with his opening comments and, if the committee agrees, we should do it now.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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I certainly believe we should recommend the setting up of a task force.

The other matters are connected as well, the music office and so on. The question of finances is also significant. That would obviously form part of the task force, if the Department of Finance is represented on it. If we could encapsulate those main recommendations into a single recommendation, I would certainly like to propose that.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I will suspend the meeting now and resume in private session when we can nail down those proposals and send them to the relevant Department based on the discussions we have had with the witnesses from IMRO. Is that agreed? Agreed.