David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Apologies have been received from Deputies Anne Ferris and Niall Collins and Senator Denis O'Donovan. The purpose of this part of the meeting is to receive a briefing from the Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner, ORAC, and the Irish Nationalisation and Immigration Service, INIS. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. David Costello, the Refugee Applications Commissioner, and Mr. Michael Kirranne, acting director general of INIS, along with Mr. Kevin O'Sullivan and Mr. John Roycroft. I thank the witnesses for being here.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to make an opening statement of approximately five minutes, to be followed by a question and answer session with members of the committee. Rather than having an omnibus series of questions, we will take answers immediately after questions.

Before we begin, I have to draw the attention of witnesses to the situation on privilege. I ask them to note that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Mr. Kirrane to make his opening statement.

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

I thank the members of the committee for inviting me here today to discuss the readiness of the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service to address the practical challenges that are anticipated arising from the Government's decision to take up to 4,000 people who are in urgent need of international protection. As part of the Government's response to the crisis, the Minister for Justice and Equality brought proposals to the Government which were considered and agreed at a special Cabinet meeting on 10 September. The multifaceted approach that is being adopted includes the establishment of an Irish refugee protection programme, which will provide international protection to up to 4,000 people under resettlement and relocation programmes. It is expected that this number will be augmented by further family reunifications. The number of people in need of international protection will be kept under review. It has also been decided to establish a new cross-departmental task force, chaired by the Department of Justice and Equality, to deal with the operational and logistical aspects of the support programme. A range of Government Departments will be represented on and involved in the task force, which has already had its first meeting and will work with non-governmental organisations, religious bodies and local authorities. In addition, the Red Cross will implement certain elements of the programme. The UNHCR is also represented on the task force. The Red Cross will specifically lead the task of engaging with public pledges of support.

The Government has also decided to establish emergency reception and orientation centres for the initial reception of those arriving under the relocation programme. It has also approved the provision of an additional package of processing resources to deal with the major increases in asylum applications and other immigration cases. The resettlement programme has already commenced. A number of people who were selected through the UNHCR process from Lebanon have already arrived. They form part of the overall number of 520 people involved in that programme. The first relocation measure to be approved by the Justice and Home Affairs Council on 14 September last involves an overall number of 40,000 and Ireland will be taking 600 from that. The next package of measures, which was agreed on 21 September, involves some 120,000 people who are in need of international protection. The overall number that Ireland will take under that package is approximately 1,850. The precise number has not yet been worked out, but that is the best estimate at this point.

As I have indicated, an interdepartmental and inter-agency task force has been established. In addition, a number of subgroups have been established to look at specific areas. In that context, the Department of Justice and Equality will take the lead in the process of relocating people to Ireland, in the refugee assessment process and in the establishment of the orientation centres. Work has commenced with the Office of Public Works and the Department of Defence on looking at the available State properties that could possibly be used. Other options will also be considered. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the city and county managers will take the lead in providing accommodation to people who are granted refugee status. As I have said, the Red Cross will take the lead in the overall co-ordination and management of the many pledges of support that have come from the public. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade will also liaise with the non-governmental organisation community.

My colleague, Mr. John Roycroft, has just been appointed to head up a new project and programme office that has been established in the Department. That office will co-ordinate the various aspects of the programme across the Department. Preparations are under way for working with our EU colleagues abroad. The Refugee Applications Commissioner will outline the further arrangements in that regard. The best practice for dealing with people who are arriving in these circumstances is for them to be accommodated in a single location, rather than being dispersed immediately. It is likely that they will come with a common language and without a knowledge of Ireland. It is considered best practice to deliver services in a co-ordinated fashion at a single centre rather than dispersing individuals immediately. The intention is that these people will be processed through the asylum process very quickly. After that has happened, other State bodies and agencies will take over the task of finding longer-term accommodation, etc. That covers my opening statement.

Mr. David Costello:

I am the head of the Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner. I am also the deputy chairperson of the European Asylum Support Office, which is the EU agency that is responsible for asylum operational issues in the EU. The functions of my office in Dublin are to investigate applications for refugee status from individuals, applications from refugees for their family members to join them in the State and applications for subsidiary protection. Two forms of international protection are processed by my office - refugee status under the Geneva Convention and subsidiary protection, which is a form of protection under EU law. The Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner employs 100 civil servants. We also employ a panel of legal practitioners on a contract for service basis. Both the civil servants and the legal practitioners undertake the interviews. They will be doing the interviews for the people coming here under the relocation programme. The actual recommendations are made to the Minister for Justice and Equality by civil servants in my office. We also have a wide variety of other functions. When we are processing asylum cases, we must schedule interviews, organise interpreters and carry out country of origin research. A vast array of backroom work has to be carried out as well. All of our case workers, panel members and other staff undergo rigorous training from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. The decisions we make in our office are subject to quality assurance by the UNHCR, which is the international agency with a mandate for protecting asylum seekers and refugees.

The plan for the Irish refugee protection programme is that people being relocated to Ireland from Greece and Italy will be processed by my office. From an operational perspective, this will mean members of my office will participate in liaison teams in Italy and Greece to help in the selection of the applicants concerned and to organise their transport to Ireland and other logistical arrangements. It will also involve processing applications. Those applications will be processed at the emergency reception and orientation centres. One of the specs in the establishment of these centres will be that interview facilities will have to be provided to my office. This will involve my staff and panel members going to the office to organise the interviews. Under the EU decision, there is a requirement for those coming in to be fingerprinted and issued with residence cards. We will do that as well. All the applicants concerned are from countries of serious conflict, such as Syria and Eritrea. They are all likely to have well-founded claims for refugee status. Accordingly, I will be able to prioritise them in line with powers I have under the Refugee Act.

Depending on the complexity of the cases involved and a range of factors, such as date of arrival and further numbers because they will be coming in groups over two years, it is anticipated that the processing of applications in the reception and orientation centres will take a number of weeks.

In terms of the readiness of my office, we have already commenced planning for this. We have set up a working group with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR, which is advising us on the approach we should take. We intend to utilise our already well-tuned systems for interviewing, organising interpreters and undertaking country of origin research. We have the process and the infrastructure in place. I am also a member of the interdepartmental task force established by the Minister for Justice and Equality. We will be working closely with the UNHCR and a UNHCR expert on international protection and refugee law will be seconded to the office to guide us in the approach we take.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Kirrane and Mr. Costello for updating us on the situation. We all have major concerns about the slaughter over the past few months and those people in Syria and other conflict areas who are looking for accommodation. Across all parties, we all have a moral, international and legal duty to support these people. I strongly support any measures to help the refugees and people in need at the moment, at this crisis in their lives.

There seems to be some confusion, nationally and internationally, about the figures. At EU level, 120,000 have been identified as being in urgent need. At an Irish level we are agreeing to take 4,000 over two years. Is that the situation?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

At EU level there are two measures agreed, the first in respect of 40,000, the second for 120,000. The overall number is 160,000. For Ireland, there are 520 under the resettlement programme, that means taking people from the neighbouring countries involved in the UNHCR programme. Under the two EU programmes for relocation, there is a total of 600 and 1,850. That is our best estimate at this stage, making approximately 2,450, and 520 under resettlement. The overall number agreed by Government is up to 4,000 and a decision on whether for the balance there will be further EU programmes for relocation or whether they will come under a resettlement programme. It is over a two year period, as specified in the EU instruments.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In respect of the resettlement, relocation and family reunification programme, would it be envisaged that Kurds or Syrians living in Ireland would request that their families who live in dire situations be given some priority because they already live and work here, have set up their own businesses, and it would not cost the Exchequer much provided that these families qualify as coming, for example, from the conflict in Syria? Already many Kurds and Syrians living here are making requests. This could be part of the strategy too.

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

The Department and the previous Minister for Justice and Equality ran a programme in respect of the Syrian humanitarian reunification programme and from that a total of 114 persons have been granted family reunification and have come to Ireland under that programme. The selection of people from this programme and the series of programmes is decided at EU level and by the European Asylum Support Office, EASO, and the countries involved. They will come predominantly from Greece and Italy. There are discussions going on at the moment as to how that selection will be made. There were various meetings last week and this week to work out the details.

Mr. David Costello:

The EU apparatus is only cranking up. They are based in hotspots in Greece in Piraeus, and in Catania and Lampedusa in Italy. It will be up to the Italian and Greek authorities to look at the caseloads of the people who have applied for asylum in those countries who have a 75% grant rate normally for refugee status based on EU statistics. The three groups primarily being considered at the moment are Syrians, Iraqis and Eritreans. Effectively it would be for the Italian and Greek authorities to look through those caseloads with the assistance of EU agencies and with Irish liaison officers. The primary role will be for Greece and Italy to choose who in those caseloads, based on their territory, who have applied for asylum will come here. We can express a preference for education, qualifications and family links, if the groups are already in Greece and Italy under the relocation programme. The view, however, is that it has to be left to the Greek and Italian authorities to select the cases.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kirrane said in his presentation: “The Department of Environment, Community and Local Government and the City and County Managers will lead on providing accommodation for persons granted refugee status”. Given the current situation in this country, a red light will go on in the heads of many public representatives and councillors when they hear that these people will "lead on providing accommodation" while we have a major housing crisis and there are people in a very bad situation. How then are we going to deal immediately with another 1,850? Many people will ask the fundamental question about whether we can provide the accommodation and resources.

In respect of a single centre, I would be very cautious about having all refugees in one spot particularly when 700 or 800 parishes around the country could take ten each and they would not even be noticed. That would cover the 4,000 before you get out of bed in the morning. Mr. Kirrane should be very careful of any facility that will ghettoise people who come into the country after living in a conflict situation.

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

The purpose of establishing reception centres is that people would be only in those centres for a relatively short period of time until their asylum applications are processed.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My problem is that they will be stuck there.

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

The commissioner is already giving up his resources to process those cases quickly and the expectation is that the vast majority who come here will be qualifying because to meet the criteria they must be coming from a country with a recognition rate of greater than 75%. The intention and the expectation is that they will be moved quickly. Therefore, whether there are one or more of the centres will depend on how quickly we get in the people and the number will be spread over two years so they will not all come at a particular point in time. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the local authorities have been represented on the task force and they are the bodies responsible for finding the accommodation around the country. Several of these people have pledged accommodation and they will be followed up by the Red Cross and will be dovetailed with that, with the intention that we expect to hold people in particular centres for only the minimum amount of time necessary.

That is until such time as their refugee status has been determined.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for the presentations. They have given us a great deal more clarity around the proposals we have seen. In particular, it is helpful to hear the specific difference between resettlement of those who come from refugee camps in Lebanon and neighbouring countries to the war zones and whose refugee status is predetermined and relocation, which relates to the bulk of people we are taking in and who are generally coming from Italy and Greece. The witnesses have given us a good idea also of how the selection will be made and the timeframe for decision making here. What is the timeframe for the first arrival from Italy and Greece of people who will be relocated and who come mostly from Syria and Eritrea?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

As the commissioner mentioned earlier, there are ongoing meetings in Italy, Greece and Brussels to work out the logistics. The timetable for that will be dictated by how quickly the hotspots are established and the speed with which we get our liaison officers on the ground. We also want to ensure that we have the appropriate accommodation here for them when they arrive. At best estimate at this stage, we expect to see the first coming by year end. That is not fully decided. It is a very fluid situation at the moment and there are discussions going on at European and domestic level. We want to ensure that by the time we receive those people, we are ready and have the centres and facilities in place for them.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is very helpful. I should have said at the outset like Deputy Finian McGrath that all of us are horrified at the terrible plight in particular of refugees from Syria arriving in Italy and Greece and at the appalling journeys they have had to make and the dreadful personal tragedies we have seen. Arising from that, Mr. Kirrane has given us the idea that it will be months before we start to see the EU process cranked up to the point where people are being relocated from Italy and Greece. My next question arises from that. I have spoken to colleagues who have been in Greece and who have seen at first hand the terrible conditions Syrian families are in there, including sick people, children and older people. I understand that in Greece and Italy, there is a reluctance to bring in international humanitarian relief efforts. Will there be any move towards that if it seems that the relocation process is going to take some months given that there are people in serious need currently? I am talking about the International Committee of the Red Cross and bringing in the capacity of international NGOs. I understand that there has been a reluctance in Greece to invite them in and to acknowledge the scale of this humanitarian crisis for refugees. Reports from Greece tell us that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is probably a matter for the foreign affairs or European affairs committees, but seeing as some of those people will be coming here anyway------

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will be liaising with the Italian and Greek authorities on this and I wonder what will be done for the refugees while they are in Italy and Greece awaiting decisions on relocation.

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

I can only answer in relation to my knowledge of it. What I can say is that at EU level there are significant discussions on providing EU support to Greece and Italy on the ground to establish hotspots and to ensure that there are sufficient resources in place to support the front-line countries which are getting the bulk of numbers and having difficulty in coping. At the last meeting of the JHA in Brussels, there was a discussion on providing additional funds at EU level for Greece and Italy specifically to deal with the influx and provide assistance to these countries. Hotspots are important in terms of how quickly they will be established because that will immediately enable people to be dispersed and relocated through various other countries and the process will kick in fairly quickly.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It seems a key point to keep people in Greece or Italy on the understanding that they may be relocated elsewhere rather than having to walk on through other countries like Serbia. My other question is for the commissioner, Mr. Costello. In terms of the capacity within his office to determine these claims quickly when people arrive, will additional staff be required? The commissioner said he is planning the allocation of resources now.

Mr. David Costello:

We will be getting additional staff from the Department. In any event, I have also been recruiting additional barristers and solicitors on a contract for services basis. There are already 20 of them working with me and 15 more were trained in by the UNHCR two weeks ago. A further 15 are being trained in next week. Allowing for the fact that I have responsibility for my existing case load, which has to be dealt with also, I am reasonably happy that I will be able to process the cases expeditiously. We expect, having regard to the nature of the countries they are from, that most will be given refugee status subject to a clear determination under the law.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for attending. Ireland has always been known as the country with the "céad míle fáilte" and we all want that for people who have been through such a terrible time. I am very concerned about how it is going to work and I find it all a bit vague in terms of what is before me. I am deeply concerned about putting people into reception centres. I have no idea about exactly how long it is envisaged that people will be in these reception centres. My question is to Mr. Kirrane. I come from a town that has a direct provision centre. While the staff who work there are exceptional and go far beyond the call of duty to look after the people who live there, the system is completely flawed. The people live in terrible situations. Some of them have been living in mobile homes for more than ten years. These are people who are already here, but now we are going to bring more people in on top of that. The places people are saying may be suitable as reception centres include empty Army barracks, one of which is in my constituency. I would not like to bring my family to live in one of those barracks. It is not fair to people. We also have a serious housing issue to which Deputy Finian McGrath referred. If one puts people into a reception centre and processes them, where are we going to house them afterwards given the serious housing issue? We are talking very vaguely whereas I would like specifics as to what kind of accommodation people will have in these reception centres. I do not understand where Mr. Kirrane gets the idea that it is best practice to put people into a situation like that as it ghettoises them. I would love a little more padding around that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has it been identified where these reception centres are going to be yet?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

No. We cannot say because we are currently looking at all the options, whether it be State-owned property or going out to the market to find suitable accommodation. As I said previously, the intention is that people will remain in these centres for a relatively short period of time until their asylum cases have been processed. As to the conditions, we intend that the facilities will be the best that can be provided and the intention is that they will not be in these centres for long periods. Talk of ghettoisation is not what we have in mind. The intention is that people will come into the centres, stay for a relatively short period and then be dispersed in small numbers throughout the country so that everybody can manage how that is dealt with from an integration perspective and so on. The intention is not to have people in these centres for a very long period of time. There will be a flow. People will come, have their cases processed - it is over a two-year period - and move out and new people will come in.

On the Deputy's question on best practice, we have had discussions with the UNHCR on this topic and the reason for keeping people together is that it is easier and better to deliver services to people in a single group rather than trying to deliver that service in the initial stages where individuals are scattered throughout the country.

The EU instrument has a specific concern about secondary relocation, as it is called, namely, that services should be provided for people who are coming by way of benefit-in-kind, not through direct payments. There is a concern that people who will be relocated will want to move and relocate to another European country and, therefore, the European Commission sets out in its legal instrument that this is how we should approach it. From a humanitarian perspective and from a discussion with the UNHCR, it is regarded as best practice. Based on the requirements set down in the legal instruments, we are obliged to deliver services by way of benefit-in-kind rather than direct payment.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With the best will in the world, despite the fact that the Government's intention is not to have people in these centres for too long, there are people in Athlone who have been living in a mobile home and waiting to be processed for more than ten years. I still do not know how long it is expected people will be in these centres. Mr. Kirrane said it was easier and better to deliver to a group of people. It is easier and better for the service provider, not for those who are in receipt of the service. How many families is he talking about putting together in a centre? Is it intended to restructure the inside of a barracks and put in family units or will there be dormitories?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the Deputy said, many people have been awaiting processing, some of them for a number of years. Could Mr. Kirrane comment on it? It is of concern to members and we would like to know why it is taking so long to process them. Are there people who have been cleared but have not moved out of the centres?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

The working group on direct provision produced a report which identified a number of recommendations, which are being examined by the Cabinet sub-committee on social policy. Specifically, a task force has been established, chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Ríordáin to examine the issue of transiting those who have been granted refugee or other status from the direct provision. It has been working over the past two months and will conclude its work in the next few weeks and report to the committee. We have examined the number of people in the system who need to transition out. Overall, a good proportion move within three months and the vast majority move within six months. There is a recognition that there is a need to provide more information and services to these people, and the task force is examining producing an information pack for people to help them to transition more quickly from direct provision. People move out relatively quickly.

The difference between this group and those who are in the direct provision system is that the intention is that they would be processed very quickly. Part of the difficulty with the direct provision system is that children are already established in schools or people have families, and moving to a different location where accommodation may be available is not always very easy. We often have to wait for summer or the end of the school term before families will move. A delay happens because people in direct provision are already established and have links to the community and, therefore, are seeking accommodation in those communities. With this group, on the basis that there will be quick processing of their cases, there is more flexibility in terms of matching accommodation to the families in a more efficient manner.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Costello said a selection would be made in the hot spots such as Italy or Piraeus. How will it work? Will people be selected, brought to Ireland and processed here?

Mr. David Costello:

A team has being established, comprising various EU agencies, for example, the European Asylum Support Office, Frontex and Europol, officials from the Italian and Greek authorities and individual liaison officers from each member state. The team is meeting this week to put a process in place to examine applicants from Syria, Iraq and Eritrea who have applied for asylum in Italy and Greece and to select groups from them to go to each of the States. The selections will be in line with the numbers that have been allocated to each state, for example, Ireland will take 600 in the first decision and approximately 1,800 in the second decision. The files will be given to individual states to confirm that they are happy with the caseload. They will have very limited choice. The Italians and Greeks, supported by the EU agencies, will make the choice. While we can decide for security reasons that we do not want a person, it will be a limited input.

When the cases are agreed, people will come on a three-monthly basis. We have to inform the Commission of how many we can take on a three-monthly basis. The travel will be effected on the ground by the Italian and Greek authorities and then the people will arrive here. We will be expecting them and they will enter the emergency centres for accommodation and any other supports they need, such as health assessments. Around the same time, I will begin to schedule people for interviews. I expect, given that they will be coming on a group basis rather than all the 2,400 together, that I will be able to do it on an incremental basis over a period of, say, two or three months. Given that they are coming from areas of serious conflict, the expectation is that they will be granted refugee status. Then, the next group will arrive. I do not anticipate major delays in my office, unless we run into particularly challenging cases.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One question was not answered, namely, if people are going into a barracks or a similar place, will they be in family units or dormitories? What kind of living conditions will they have?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

No decision has been made about anybody going into barracks.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Empty barracks are being considered.

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

We are examining all accommodation options and it depends on the profile of the people coming. If they are families, we expect that the facilities will be appropriate for families while single people will be accommodated accordingly. We must bear in mind that it is an emergency situation and we are taking people from places where the facilities are extremely difficult. Senator Bacik referred to this earlier. Our job is to find the best facility we can within the timescale we have to do so.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The refugee crisis is not recent. Several years ago, I visited refugee camps in Lebanon that had been occupied for decades by Palestinian refugees. These Palestinian refugees were taking in family members who were refugees from Syria. Refugees were taking in refugees. I have seen at first hand the lack of resources provided to Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey which are predominantly dealing with the crisis. The international community failed to support those countries and adequately resource them to deal with refugees. Meanwhile, very wealthy states in the region are taking no refugees and giving no support.

There is a big picture of utter failure internationally to either resource countries who are being very generous or to challenge countries that are not doing anything. In terms of the position here, I welcome the confirmation from the Government that we will take 4,000 refugees in the next few years but I have some concerns. In regard to the first issue, we need to win hearts and minds among our own citizens. Obviously the witnesses have heard the commentary around "we have a housing crisis and we need to address that" or "we still have an unemployment crisis" and so on. We have also heard from President Tusk in his state of the Union address that the EU would provide a subsidy of around €6,000 per refugee and that the Government would then seek to ensure that whatever it spends on the relocation programmes would not be factored into the usual budgetary procedure. In my opinion we can do both. I hold the strong view that we can say to our citizens that we can address the housing crisis, the economic recovery and take a reasonable share of refugees but how does one reassure the citizens listening?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Kirrane wish to address that issue?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

The first thing to say is that there has been a huge groundswell of support and pledges from the public generally, with offers of help. We intend to harness all of those and, as I mentioned earlier, the Red Cross has been given the lead task to gather all of those in a structured manner and look at where accommodation has been offered, and where other services have been offered. A whole range of offers have been made.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I intercede for a moment? Deputy Finian McGrath mentioned this issue earlier. How many offers or pledges are being processed by the Red Cross and can Mr. Kirrane tell the committee a little about them?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

The Red Cross has only just started. It has established a website, which was launched on Monday, to garner all of these offers. We are aware of a website called uplift.ie. We have had discussions with the NGOs who organised it. The indications were that there were somewhere around 15,000 offers of help. All of these may not be specific accommodation offers. There is a range of support. That was the indication received when that website was established. The intention is that the Red Cross will garner all of those and look and see where in the country they are to try to match where services are required with the offers that have been made.

On the broader question, the intention is to harness the support of NGOs at local level to deal with matters of integration. Through that process, it is important that we continue to get public support and that we do nothing to alienate it. The intention is to-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, Mr. Kirrane, I have to suspend the meeting as we have to attend a vote in the House.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the role of NGOs, religious bodies and local authorities, it would be fair to say that the direct provision system goes on at the administrative level, involving the State and commercial arrangements with providers of accommodation, and at a local level there are churches and other groups involved in supporting people in different ways.

Pope Francis has made a high-profile call on parishes to take families. What is likely to happen? Will there be formal meetings with the different churches or can the witnesses enlighten us as to how that government approach to civil society might take shape?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

Under the task force that has been established, the Minister for Justice and Equality has chaired the first of its meetings and several subgroups have been established, one of which deals specifically with integration and working with the NGOs. Without pre-empting the outcome of the work of that subgroup, I anticipate that it will engage in a formal way with the NGOs and with religious bodies that have made offers and pledges of support. The intention is to harness those in a structured manner to be able to respond as efficiently as possible.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One area I have written about recently is the macro question of who gets in. All right-thinking people want to reach out and deal with people in the current emergency and the people who are making these arduous and sometimes dangerous journeys. Behind all that, however, are stories of particular persecuted groups in the Middle East. I am thinking of Christian groups in some areas, non-Christian, non-Muslim groups such as the Yazidis, Muslim minorities in some cases, and, in certain areas, not necessarily the people making the journey but possibly those who have no future in their Middle Eastern homelands, if one is to take a hard realpolitikview of the situation. It seems to be the intention of the EU to deal with those who are arriving on our shores and Mr. Kirrane has said the Greeks and the Italians will for the most part make the allocation. Is it a harsh fact, therefore, given that the EU has limited capacity to absorb people, that some of those persecuted groups may very well be left behind in all of this?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

It is a difficult question in respect of the relative, limited capacity of Ireland in the overall scheme. While 4,000 is a big number, it is a very small one in the overall scale of what is being talked about. There are two programmes, one of which is resettlement. We work closely on the ground with the UNHCR which selects people from camps or on the borders, particularly in Lebanon, to come under a resettlement programme. It is a two-track approach, one to deal with our EU colleagues in respect of relocation and the other to deal and work with the UNHCR on taking people directly from the immediate circumference of war-torn Syria.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would it be fair to say that the numbers would be much smaller on the resettlement programme?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

There are a total of 520 at the moment under the resettlement programme. There is a decision yet to be made on whether more will come from that programme or from relocation.

Mr. David Costello:

On the Senator's point about minorities, it will be for the Italian and Greek authorities to make the decisions but the EU decision does provide for issues such as "family, social or cultural ties which could facilitate their integration into the member state of relocation". I am reading from the preamble. It does allow that to be taken into account, but at the end of the day it will be for the Italians and the Greeks to select the cases, working with the states concerned.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you; that is very helpful. Operating on the principle, as I said informally earlier, that no question should be taboo, the EU has acknowledged that there are legitimate questions about security. Given that the Italians and Greeks will allocate people to different countries, it is for those countries to object if there are security reasons to object. What steps can be taken by Ireland in that situation? How real is our ability to establish whether some of the people who might be coming, or allocated to us, would be a security threat in the short or long term?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

As the Senator rightly said, the EU legal instrument provides for states which are taking people under relocation to consider security and we are in contact with our Garda colleagues with a view to Garda resources being assigned to work with our liaison officers in Italy and Greece to consider that specific issue. It is a matter for the Garda Síochána how it will go about that process and I cannot add anything further in respect of that.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perhaps I missed it, but I do not think Mr. Kirrane answered my first question. What is the specific contribution of the European Commission? For example, the overall budget is tens of millions. What percentage of that will be covered by the European Commission and the European Union?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

For each person relocated under the scheme there is a once-off payment of €6,000 from the European Commission. In addition, the member states the people are coming from, namely, Greece and Italy, get a once-off payment of €500 to deal with the transportation of people to the relevant member state.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My maths is not great, but 4,000 potential refugees multiplied by €6,000 is €2.4 million. Am I correct?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

It is €24 million.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, my maths is not great, as Mr. Kirrane can see. What percentage is that of the overall cost? I ask because we need to be able to say to citizens the housing crisis and unemployment will be addressed by Government but that this is a separate budget that is part of our international responsibility. Ireland contributes hundreds of millions of euro every year to overseas aid, for example. It is part of our responsibility to the international community. I want to get a sense of whether clear explanatory notes have been prepared. For example, the question I asked first related to the suggestion by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, that he would ask that whatever expenditure was deployed on this would not be taken into consideration as part of normal budgetary calculations. What position is all of that in at this stage?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

On what €6,000 will cover, the best estimate we have is that it provides for the first six months of accommodation for those who come. We are working with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on the overall cost for the Department in respect of the provision of this service. This includes accommodation, resources to process and so on. Other Departments, whether the Department Education and Skills, the Department of Health or local authorities, are working on the cost of their elements. We are getting good support from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in regard to our Estimates discussions around this because it is recognised that additional resources are needed to make this happen.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a work in progress.

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

Yes.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The second question relates to best practice. Mr. Kirrane spoke about working with NGOs. For example, the Community Workers' Co-operative has published a very good submission on good practice in terms of integration, assimilation, and interacting with local communities in advance. One model that was brought to my attention was in Southill in Limerick with the Congolese or African community a number of years ago. That is a really good model to look at. Has Mr. Kirrane looked at previous best practice? Is there a plan in place if, for example, 4,000 refugees are distributed to 40 different locations throughout the State, presumably larger urban areas? Who is he talking to in terms of NGOs? What models has he looked at that have worked well in the past?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

It is fair to say we are at the start of the process. The decision on the numbers coming was only made last week. The subgroups under the task force, which I mentioned, will be looking at each of those areas, including how best to engage with local communities and best practice in respect of previous programmes that were run for refugees, with a view to picking what is best from those. Certainly that is the intention over the coming months.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My final question relates to direct provision. It is universally agreed that our direct provision system is a poor one because of the length of time people must remain in it. Uniquely in the European Union, we do not allow asylum seekers to work. That means in some cases people have been stuck for more than ten years without the right to work, which is a poor record. We now have a situation where Mr. Kirrane has explained that countries are identified, of which Syria is one, as I assume are Afghanistan and other such countries, whose citizens will be fast-tracked for asylum, going through the UNHCR and our system. What does that say to people who have been waiting ten years in the direct provision system and are still languishing, unable to work and living on €19 per week? Will the situation of the thousands of such people be addressed? Will there be a more consistent humanitarian approach to those who are already here, looking at the new numbers coming in?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could Mr. Kirrane tell us how many are in direct provision?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

There are approximately 4,500. For this year to date, the number of asylum claims is around 2,600. There are many people in the system who are relatively new to it. There is recognition from the working group on direct provision that the system is too slow and that the length of time people spend in it is the primary issue. The Government recently allocated additional resources to speed up the processing of those cases and we intend to move quickly on that. In addition, the international protection Bill will be published in a matter of weeks. This will introduce a single procedure which brings together into a single process the various stages of the process that are currently done in a linear fashion. The intention is that this will speed up the process. All aspects of somebody's protection application and their humanitarian leave to remain will be treated at the outset in one process, rather than having a linear process where there will inevitably be delay because one process must conclude before the next begins. The intention is to increase the rate of processing significantly through both of those measures.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have a question, but I do not know whether Mr. Kirrane will be in a position to answer it. Is he aware of any intention to opt into the directives that would permit an asylum seeker to work after being here for nine months, as is the case in the rest of the European Union?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

That is a policy matter.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fair enough. I will put it to the Minister. We have a debate on Thursday, so it is fine.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It might be a matter for the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation rather than the Minister for Justice and Equality. I am not sure.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for the clarification they have given us. In general, people have greatly welcomed the announcement that 4,000 refugees will come here on the resettlement programmes. I am just wondering about family reunification. There is such immense goodwill and I know that under the Syrian humanitarian admission programme currently in operation, only one in three of those who applied - about 114 family members - were able to join their family in Ireland. Will the family reunification for people coming in under these new programmes be operated swiftly and perhaps with higher levels of admission? I understand the witnesses may not be able to answer that at present.

Mr. David Costello:

The caseload coming in will be brought into the Irish asylum process. Irish asylum law, namely, the Refugee Act 1996, provides for family reunification. As well as enhancing our claims processing, we have to enhance our family reunification sections.

This must be done to ensure that, when those who are relocated are granted status and apply for family reunification under the law, their cases are processed. We must crank up that part of our service as well.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have one or two questions. Mr. Kirrane mentioned that a cross-departmental task force had been established. Who is on it?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

I will try to remember all of the participants. The main Departments are the Environment, Community and Local Government, Health, Education and Skills and Foreign Affairs and Trade and it is chaired by the Department of Justice and Equality, with that Minister chairing the first meeting. There are representatives from the City and County Managers Association, CCMA, the Office of Public Works, OPW, the Department of Defence and the UN Human Rights Committee, UNHCR. If I have left anyone out-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is okay. It gives us the gist of who is there.

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

The Department of Social Protection is also involved. I beg the Chairman's pardon.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To clarify, am I correct in saying that, when these people get refugee status, they will be entitled to work straight away?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

Yes.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there a process through which they must go? Must they get work permits, for example? What must be done to enable them to work?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

Once somebody is granted refugee status, he or she is entitled to access the same range of facilities, Departments and processes that are in place for granting work permits and so on that are available to someone who is granted refugee status via the normal asylum process.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It can happen straight away. Mr. Costello mentioned people's qualifications. Could he expand on that point?

Mr. David Costello:

In general, the decision as to who will come to Ireland is made by the Greek and Italian authorities. States can only object on security grounds, but they have a right under the directive to feed their interests into the process in terms of applicants' specific qualifications, characteristics and family, cultural and social ties so as to assist with integration. It is possible for Ireland to indicate in that limited way that we want people with, for example, English language skills if they are available. However, that is only a desire and it is for the Greek and Italian authorities to make the decisions. There is a little bit of flexibility.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Mr. Costello expand on his point about desire? Will Ireland make that indication?

Mr. David Costello:

That is still being worked through as part of the process.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Costello also mentioned residence cards and that all applicants would be fingerprinted. Will he expand further on this point? Are we discussing some form of biometrics?

Mr. David Costello:

Yes. We use biometric fingerprinting. Under Irish and EU law and the two decisions in question, all asylum seekers are required to provide their fingerprints. It is meant to support the operation of what is known as the Dublin regulation, which enables decisions to be made as to which state processes an asylum application. The Dublin regulation will not apply in this instance because cases that would normally be for Greece and Italy to process will instead come to Ireland. However, we will still need to take fingerprints so that the relevant EU IT systems are marked to the effect that the applicants are now the responsibility of Ireland, Germany or wherever. People are fingerprinted electronically in my office.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the residence card hold any information?

Mr. David Costello:

No. It is not an identity card. All asylum seekers who attend my office to apply receive temporary residence certificates, which effectively "identify" them as asylum seekers. This is mainly done so that, if an authority wants proof of who a person is, he or she can at least show this card. We are giving these cards out because it is the normal practice for asylum seekers to have them while they are in the process.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Once people have refugee status, what kind of documentation will they receive or do they need any?

Mr. David Costello:

Under the normal practice, when one receives refugee status, one has an entitlement to all of the rights and privileges of an Irish national. No specific identity card is given at that stage.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about passports and the right to travel abroad for people with refugee status?

Mr. David Costello:

One has a right to travel, but one must apply as a refugee for a travel document. One gets that from the immigration service.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about passports?

Mr. David Costello:

One gets a passport if one is an Irish citizen. People must wait a number of years to get citizenship.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How do refugees who travel to Ireland without passports or documents attain passports? Can they?

Mr. Michael Kirrane:

We would issue a temporary travel document that looks like a passport and is issued by the Passport Office on our request. People would have a document that enabled them to travel.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to ask a brief supplementary question on the subject of work permits. What is the position once a person has refugee status? Are work permits out of the question because the refugees effectively have the rights and privileges of a citizen or did I misunderstand Mr. Costello's response?

Mr. Kevin O'Sullivan:

The Senator is right. When people get refugee status, they are effectively exempted from the work permit system. They do not need to make a separate application to the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. Their immigration status as refugees takes them out of that process.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. O'Sullivan.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has been useful to put this information on the record so that we might know for future reference. I thank the witnesses for attending and giving of their expertise and valuable time. They have a very complicated and important job to do. We are in the early stages of what is happening. If members are still here later this year, we may invite the witnesses back to provide a briefing on progress.

Mr. John Roycroft:

We would be happy to.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a big caveat on that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. We wish the witnesses well and every success with the work that they are undertaking. As we have a small bit of private business to attend to, is it agreed that we go into private session? Agreed.