Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I remind members, delegates and those present in the Visitors Gallery to ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting of proceedings.

I welcome from Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, Mr. Gordon Jeyes, chief executive; Ms Colette Walsh, director of human resources; Ms Eibhlin Byrne, director of educational welfare services; Mr. Pat Smyth, director of finance; Mr. Cormac Quinlan, director of policy and strategy, and Mr. Brian Lee, director of quality assurance. It is the joint committee’s intention to have quarterly meetings with the agency. I thank the agency for the work it is doing which can be difficult and time-consuming.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. If, however, they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice and ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Jeyes to make his opening statement.

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

I welcome the opportunity to update members on the work of Tusla. The establishment of the Child and Family Agency was a unique opportunity to act on the issues of accountability and transparency. There has been considerable progress in that regard, but achieving consistency remains more elusive and a work in progress. There are clear lines of accountability, as well as clarity in budget allocation and action being taken when services are not performing to expectation. This progress has been validated in reports and audits. The Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, in its annual report for 2014 confirms progress in services in most parts of the country, while the Comptroller and Auditor General has audited and certified the financial statements for Tusla’s first year of operation.

In areas in which the guidance and practice of the service delivery framework are followed there has been significant improvement. In a small number of areas, however, there has been insufficient progress, even taking into account pressures on resources and in recruitment. In most of the country duty and intake arrangements have been reformed. While service pressures remain, unallocated cases are reviewed and prioritised. The number of cases, particularly those designated as a high priority, is reducing. An audit has recently been completed and the findings submitted to the Department for its consideration. There is a need to be resourced to intervene, screen, assess and allocate all appropriate referrals and increase local staff complements to ensure further backlogs do not occur.

In short, services are improving but the agenda for further reform is clear. The consolidation of services for children and families was the right way to proceed. Achievements to date are the result of political will and focused professional commitment from extremely hard-working colleagues. The pace of reform and improvement remains inhibited, however, by continuing financial and resource pressures both on the front line and in terms of corporate support, whether directly from Tusla or through shared service arrangements. Having survived the demanding circumstances of its first year of operation, it is necessary for the agency to move from establishment to sustainability. The experience of amalgamating three services with three very different cultures has been both challenging and enlightening. Now is the time to take stock, regroup and create a sustainable future.

As set out in the first appendix, how to build that sustainable future has been the focus of wide-ranging consultation with staff. Meetings have involved 25% of total staff, a detailed online survey and further discussions with partners. A report on the consultation will be brought to the board in 31 July, as will proposals for a streamlined, sustainable structure into the future. Significant progress has been made. For the first time, we have a clear picture of total investment in Ireland's most vulnerable children. A lot has been achieved, not least the provision of objective and validated HR, financial and performance data. There is clarity as to what has been achieved and the areas that need to improve. Some of the unknown unknowns are now known. We know what is required to introduce lasting sustainable change and the foundations are in place in that regard. A new legal entity was created with no additional investment. We accepted the discipline of austerity, but investment is now required.

The second appendix outlines our business plan. Further improvements have been designed and are being implemented. The business of agency establishment continues and that activity is now organised in line with the five key outcomes of the corporate plan, which is summarised in the appendix. I draw members' attention, in particular, to the fact that agreement has, at last, been reached on an out-of-hours social work service. Rotas are being drawn up and the service will go live in the autumn. In addition, after a range of technical difficulties to do with security have been addressed, the child protection notification system will be accessible to An Garda Síochána and emergency medical services on a 24-7 basis. That, too, is due to go live in the autumn. The vast majority of the business plan targets are on schedule, despite the fact that corporate support capacity is well below that available to comparator organisations.

The final appendix sets out the significant progress towards our aim of being a self-evaluating organisation. We are now able to report all aspects of service delivery, finance, HR, legal and impacts on the ground. A consultation is being completed on the development of a quality assurance framework. The principle of proportionate intervention has been established, not least through the ground-breaking activity in the midlands and in Louth-Meath. We believe in high support and high challenge.

In summary, establishing a legal entity at a time of austerity and no additional resources has been challenging. Despite those challenges, service accountability and performance continue to improve. Most recently, for example, education welfare services were restructured and realigned to address a number of challenges and reports regarding national leadership and governance over schemes and projects. More formal engagement with the voluntary sector has been promoted with the introduction of Meitheal and the establishment of commissioning services. The integration of three distinct organisations into a cohesive agency has been challenging, but much has been achieved in developing a single entity with a single focus on services for children and families.

The establishment of Tusla amounts to a significant step forward from past practice. However, the past is not the only benchmark; we need to do well by today's best standards and look to the future. There is clarity of information regarding services currently being delivered. There is clarity regarding the reform agenda required. It is clear, too, that improvement cannot be achieved without investment. At a time of austerity, commitment and dedication have delivered an extraordinary range of improvements. Looking ahead, however, the capacity to build on those improvements and provide a consistent service the length and breadth of the country will require not only continued dedication but also sufficient resources. Having made the progress we have, the lesson of the past is that we must never again let Ireland's vulnerable children down. Investment in our children is vital as we move from survival to sustainability. It is all about putting children first.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Jeyes for his presentation. I will now take questions from members, beginning with Deputy Robert Troy.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the delegates from Tusla and thank the chief executive officer for his update on developments at this very important State agency. Mr. Jeyes concluded his statement by emphasising the need for additional investment. As I recall, he indicated at the time the budget Estimates were being discussed last year that the agency required an extra €42 million in funding just to stand still. He was unable to secure that amount, but there was an increase in funding of €24 million or so. How has Tusla been able to manage the increase in the number of children in care with allocated social workers and with a written plan and the numbers receiving aftercare services given that he indicated, less than 12 months ago, that an additional €42 million was needed just to ensure the agency stands still? This week, the Dáil passed the Children First Bill 2014, which places the Children First guidelines on a statutory basis. Are the delegates confident they have the necessary resources to ensure the provisions set out in that legislation become a reality?

In the past, the HSE published social worker statistics on a quarterly basis which set out the number of children in care, the number with an allocated social worker and the number with a dedicated care plan. Tusla produces a similar report measuring pressures in the system on a quarterly basis. Why is it necessary to submit a freedom of information request in order to access those reports? Where is the transparency in that?

When the delegates appeared before the committee in May, we spoke about the appalling situation in Laois-Offaly. I requested on that occasion that all 17 areas be examined to ensure practice there was not replicated elsewhere in the country. Has that review taken place? After the meeting, I highlighted to Mr. Jeyes the situation in a particular region. His office subsequently contacted me for further information, which I supplied. Will he quantify the optimum level of social workers needed to ensure all children in care have a dedicated social worker and a care plan? Will he confirm whether that target has been met? I am not asking whether it is being met on paper; that might well be the case even if 200 or so social workers, say, are out on maternity leave.

Have we a sufficient number of social workers to do the job that needs to be done?

Mr. Jeyes stated, "Accountability has been strengthened with clear line management responsibility.", and he spoke about accountability, consistency and transparency in May 2015. Has anyone been held accountable in Laois-Offaly? Has anybody been held accountable in the other regions that have highlighted incompetence or malpractice - whatever way one wishes to describe it?

One of the other matters identified during the previous meeting Mr. Jeyes attended was that we do not have an efficient computerised system to keep an effective record or log of what is going on. This would have been a basic requirement in the establishment of a new agency. Would Mr. Jeyes agree that it was inappropriate that the agency was established without this? Have plans been put in place to ensure that this will be established, and at what cost? Will additional resources be made available this year to ensure that this is established because, without an effective and efficient log system, it is difficult to keep a handle on everything that is going on in a particular region?

Recently, the Minister - I am sorry, Mr. Jeyes-----

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

Not yet.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Within six months, Mr. Jeyes might be. One never knows. Mr. Jeyes can always put his name forward.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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There must be a new coalition coming.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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We are always recruiting.

Recently, Mr. Jeyes was on "Morning Ireland" as a consequence of a number of groups that had their funding cut. For a moment, I will be parochial. A group in Mullingar that deals with domestic abuse had its funding cut by 100% with no prior knowledge. Basically, the agency wrote out one week stating that within whatever the period, say six weeks, the funding would be cut. My party subsequently raised it on the floor of the Dáil, the Minister intervened which I acknowledge, and a stay of execution was put in place. It was said that nothing would happen until an alternative was put in place. If an alternative will be put in place, surely the alternative should be put in place before the agency discontinues a service, especially a critical service dealing with domestic abuse.

Finally, I will make a point about the guardians ad litem. As Opposition TDs, we are always criticised that we are looking for spending in additional areas. Last week I produced a piece of legislation on the regulation of guardians ad litemwhich would ensure regulation of this sector which is currently unregulated, open to manipulation, open to abuse and, effectively, a cash cow for some. At a time of scarce resources, should we be regulating a sector that is breaking Tusla? It should be a priority to regulate that sector so that the scarce resources could be diverted to maintaining and providing the front-line services which is what this agency is all about.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the representatives of Tusla here this morning and commend Mr. Jeyes on his commitment and efforts. I thank him for the comprehensive presentation which gives us a clear overview of the work taking place within Tusla.

I have a few questions. Regarding the organisational structure, can Mr. Jeyes give us an update on the after-care services? He states that there was a 15% increase in this regard. I wonder whether most of this is in disadvantaged areas. Where, and how, are these services being provided? Is there a tie-in with local schools for the provision and are there plans to extend it? Is it Mr. Jeyes's view that the programme has been successful?

Mr. Jeyes states in his presentation that practices still vary in some parts of the country. I wonder where, and how, it varies, and have the issues we previously discussed in Louth been addressed. He states that "the allocation of a budget based on needs analysis will be a priority". How will that be determined?

Information technology, IT, facilities came up previously at our meetings. In that regard, Mr. Jeyes states that further change is necessary. As I stated, we discussed the issue of the IT systems and maybe the lack of them. Has there been improvement since, is funding being allocated to the necessary upgrading and, if so, how much?

On the NCCIS, Mr. Jeyes states the phase is operational in some non-computerised areas. I wonder how can this work. Could he explain how that can tie in to a national overall system if it is non-computerised? How much outsourcing is in place for the national out-of-hours services?

Regarding the implementation of the Children First Bill, what will be the immediate firsts steps in this regard?

Dealing with complaints, by how much, if any, has the staff ratio for this work increased? The vast majority of business plan targets are being met, Mr. Jeyes states, despite the fact that corporate support capacity is well below comparator organisations. To what organisations is he comparing it?

A number of organisations have recently had their funding cut in mid-year, and some without prior notification. Can he comment on why this is happening?

He states that Tusla has made significant progress despite resource constraints, increasing service demands and austerity measures. I note this is a trend. All across Mr. Jeyes' presentations, he mentions resources and investment. In his summary, he states "it is clear too that improvement cannot be achieved without investment." Is he of the opinion that resources are still tight? How much does Tusla need in the next budget to sufficiently and adequately improve services? The implication is that Tusla is operating under tight financial circumstances. Last year Mr. Jeyes indicated that Tusla needed investment of €45 million just to stand still and it got €34 million, but how has that impacted on Tusla? How much does Tusla need in the next budget to implement the strategies Mr. Jeyes put to us in the presentation today? It would appear that if Tusla does not get the funding, many of the strategies will not be implemented.

In his presentation, Mr. Jeyes mentions that 2,031 cases were deemed as high priority and are still waiting on a social worker. This is an extremely high figure. Previously, the Minister stated that every child deemed as high priority is allocated a social worker. Can Mr. Jeyes provide a breakdown of the timeframe. In terms of the 2,031, how long will they have to wait to be allocated a social worker?

He stated, in these graphs, that the total number of staff is down, from a high of 3,484 a year ago to 3,465. I wonder what the ideal number should be. I will leave it at that for now.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I welcome Mr. Jeyes and his colleagues. I welcome that we, as a committee, have put in train the process of holding quarterly meetings.

It is good for all of us to understand the issues and carry out our oversight role.

The first area I wish to deal with is that of resources, which has been raised by my colleagues. I am sure every State agency would say it needs additional resources, but I would place a priority on the Child and Family Agency. Can Mr. Jeyes advise what would be the priority areas for the agency in obtaining additional resources so that we can understand the need for those resources?

In terms of the transfer of responsibilities, as was stated, we are 18 months into this operation. Many of our systems, such as IT and human resources, are shared with the HSE. I understand the human resources element is managed from Manorhamilton and that even a local transfer has to go to a national panel. I am trying to understand the steps involved. Also, with respect to the IT system, the transfer and the role the HSE was supposed to play, I wonder whether it comes back to the question: does Big Brother always win? One of the reasons we wanted the Child and Family Agency established was to ensure it was independent and stood on its own. What is the position with IT services?

I have made my opinion clear on the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services, CAHMS; I believe it should have been transferred over. There is a clear legal responsibility for the agency to provide a psychological service. I cannot find evidence of a psychological service. Has the HSE co-operated with Mr. Jeyes on that? I would appreciate a response to that question. It is important, because there is a legal responsibility for the agency to provide such a service.

Taking account of the number of children in care, we can get into issues about thresholds and whether the threshold has or has not increased for a child going into care. I am not going to measure the agency on the number of children in care, but I would like to ensure, as we all would, that if a child needs care, care is there for the child and the agency has the necessary resources. For me, it is a difficult indicator.

As other colleagues have asked, is Mr. Jeyes confident that he has resources required to implement the Children First Bill? Does he have an overview of the plans in place for its implementation? We will be dealing with the Children First Bill in the Seanad next week and it will be very useful to know that. Has Mr. Jeyes engaged with other agencies regarding the implementation of the Children First legislation, including the HSE? I asked the HSE about this several months ago and I believe it has one staff member responsible for Children First, which appalled me, given the number of children it deals with in its services.

In regard to the out-of-hours service, will it be a 24-hour service or will it only cover certain hours? I wish to check that, as the figures for Childline show that the majority of its calls are made outside working hours.

With regard to homelessness and the housing crisis - I am not placing responsibility for addressing that issue on the agency - does Mr. Jeyes have a concern regarding child protection issues when children are placed in emergency accommodation? That issue has been raised with the committee by the Ombudsman for Children, and the ISPCC recently stated that the placement of children in emergency accommodation, particularly where communal areas may be shared outside the household, could present child protection issues. What are the concerns of Mr. Jeyes in that respect and is he taking action to address any concerns he may have?

With regard to the funding of organisations, I am not questioning that he makes decisions, as he has to make decisions, but I would question the backdating of cuts. I cannot stand over the announcement to organisations in May that their funding was to be cut from next January. I understand that Mr. Jeyes must examine the streamlining of services, but we need to examine the way in which people have been communicated with and engaged, as organisations need to plan.

Another issue is the impact of policy. The agency is trying to institute measures and make changes. For example, a section 3 disclosure of abuse or neglect, which concerns alleged perpetrators, can have an impact on clients in practice. There is the issue of the impact of that policy on staffing resources, and I appreciate the budget difficulties. I note from the monthly performance indicators that staff are delivering more, which is welcome, but there is a limit to how far that can be stretched. The elastic band is at full stretch. I am trying to work out the impact this will have on children and on child protection. I want to understand where those resources will go.

On the issue of guardians ad litemand the legal costs, I have mixed feelings. I agree that the system must be regulated but I have also seen the critical role that some guardians ad litemhave played in children's lives and how they have intervened when the State has not been acting appropriately. We often talk about the legal cost of providing a guardianad litem, but I have a question about choices made by the Child and Family Agency in the cases it chooses to bring to the court that are not mediated or dealt with at a lower level. What responsibility is the agency taking for examining its own actions in regard to legal affairs, not only the costs involving other people?

It is good to see the 2015 business plan for the agency. The five immediate priorities, which are part of the corporate plan, have been outlined and in respect of each of them a time period is indicated, such as "short term" or "one to three years," but in the open comment it is stated that this is the progress in quarter one and quarter two. Is everything listed there? Is it the progress in quarter one and quarter two or is it in the short term, one to three years? Mr. Jeyes knows these plans inside out, but I am trying to establish what I am reading here to understand its significance.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The next speaker is Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor, to be followed by Deputy Ó Caoláin, who I know has to attend another meeting.

Mary Mitchell O'Connor (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Jeyes for the presentation. I note he is seeking extra resources. Every group that comes before the committee seeks extra resources. We had a group in yesterday and it wanted resources and another group will be in this afternoon and it will want resources. Resources involve taxpayers' money, not the Government's money, and we must make sure that there is a need for the provision of resources. I am not saying that only to this group; it applies to every group that comes before the committee.

I understand it has been difficult and challenging to set up this organisation, and Mr. Jeyes certainly seems to have grasped the whole sector and pulled it together. I am taken aback that he has only has two members of staff dealing with ICT and I note that they came from the National Education Welfare Board. I presume he is not looking for 120 staff to manage estates with regard to the HSE. I know of estates in Dún Laoghaire that the HSE owns. We want money going into front-of-house staff, people who are dealing with children; we do not want to set up another big organisation employing people and still not dealing with children.

I wish to ask Mr. Jeyes about a matter, and this may be a different approach from that taken by other colleagues. I am particularly interested in the agency's targeted range of family and parenting supports and its parenting strategy. That is extremely important. Will Mr. Jeyes outline his thinking on that strategy and how he will communicate with parents and help them do the best for their children, or, if they run into problems, where they can get advice?

Mr. Jeyes spoke about alignment of education and welfare services. I presume that is for the children who drop out of school early or who are having psychological problems through school. How will Mr. Jeyes reach into the schools? I am aware that DEIS schools got all those services, while one could not get resources for such children in an ordinary mainstream school. I am interested in that aspect.

Mr. Jeyes spoke about the agency's targeted range of family and parenting supports, including psychology services. What psychology services are those? For example, if a parent has a child who is diagnosed with autism and cannot get a service for their child, will the agency offer help and support in those circumstances? Will it inform organisations that they are to take on that child and check why organisations are refusing children services?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Mr. Jeyes and his colleagues and wish them well after 18 months of service in this area. I hope Tusla will grow to meet all the challenges it has to contend with. Could Mr. Jeyes expand a little on his commitment that there will be nationwide round-the-clock social work service by September? How will it actually function? How accessible is it in terms of individual impact and will it be all-encompassing geographically?

There were some criticisms in the recent report from HIQA, specifically focusing on the north Dublin area, that investigation of allegations of physical abuse of children has been impeded by considerable delays on the part of Tusla in informing the Garda of the allegations. This is something the Garda has said. I note in the report that this matter has been satisfactorily addressed, according to HIQA. I am aware of that in raising it, but I would like to hear an elaboration from Mr. Jeyes. Is he satisfied, not only in respect of the north Dublin area but right across the State, that there are no delays in engaging with and informing the Garda of physical abuse of children, and situations comparable to those referred to in the HIQA report?

Could Mr. Jeyes comment on the fact that the report is critical of the allocation of complex cases involving long-term harm and neglect to newly qualified and inexperienced staff and, in some cases, agency staff? The report does not say that all these matters have been satisfactorily addressed. Is he taking steps to ensure that cases of such seriousness are dealt with by those who have experience and competence? The use of agency staff suggests a very temporary exposure, that staff would not have a longer engagement with the young person concerned or even with the particular case, when there is a need for consistency and continuity. Would he comment on the appropriateness of using agency staff in such cases?

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

Obviously there may be some overlap in the issues raised by members. I will try to deal with some of it thematically, but no doubt I will be taken to task if I miss any points.

Deputy Troy began on the issue of investment and quite rightly identified that there was some catch-up in the second year of our establishment but not enough and, therefore, further adjustments had to be made. I have told voluntary and community sector organisations that provide vital preventative work that they will remain vulnerable because if I have to fund more foster carers, I am going to do that, if I have to make sure there are allocated social-workers, I am going to do that, and, therefore, the bits of the budget that are more vulnerable will be cut if there is insufficient money to meet our existing level of service.

In terms of investment, we have made reductions this year in the region of some €10 million. We have closed the gap, but we have not done so sufficiently, and some of the savings we are making, not least through rigorous vacancy management on non-front-line posts, are not sustainable, that is, they will not recur next year. Therefore, taking some recent Labour Court rulings regarding sleepovers and other matters into account, we are talking about €25 million or so merely to stay where we are. I am not saying that will be our end-of-year position - far from it - but that is when one takes into account unsustainable amounts and the fact that more children will be appropriately placed in foster care placements next year. However, statistics show we have managed to improve performance in that because of people's goodwill, professionalism, dedication, and a better approach to prioritising. We can evidence that and it is shown in the majority of - I accept not all - HIQA reports.

The other bit about immediate investment, which comes through other questions raised by Deputies, relates to capacity. There is now clear evidence that we have insufficient capacity to do what is expected of us. That is why, having looked at "measure the pressure", we have audited it further and I will come back to that, because Deputy Troy raised that later on. All those issues relate to investment.

It is interesting that Deputy Troy's next question was about legislation, because if the Dáil passes legislation, that needs to be looked at to see its financial or priority implications. If we are to do this and it is statutorily required, we must ask where it is funded from and what we are not going to do. Much work has gone into preparing for Children First. Child protection is everyone's responsibility and that is emphasised in terms of the organisation. It is about spreading it. Yes, there has been a detailed programme of us working with the health service, education, and local government, the major people who also work with children, and prioritising that work to ensure they are playing their part. We are in correspondence with the Department and have been since the start of this. It has a detailed submission for us to start up. Clearly there will be an increase on the current 43,000 referrals we get and how we are staffed to ensure that is filtered and an efficient, effective and proportionate service is provided. Yes, we can be ready for Children First. The common societal commitment to child protection is welcome, but it comes with a modest additional resource tag on top of the standstill and capacity issues.

I apologise about anyone ever having to use a freedom of information request. We do not want that. If the information is there, we will make it available as quickly as possible. By way of excuse, all I would say about "measure the pressure" is that we have been working on it to ensure it is validated and to ensure this estimate for staff is completely authentic. We have produced a detailed audit of that to ensure the naming of the parts and the way in which we are measuring that intake system is the same throughout the country in order that the figures make sense. We have completed that work. I did not want to drown Deputies with paper, but if any Deputy wants a copy of that completed audit, they are welcome to it. We now believe "measure the pressure" can and should be shared because it is validated, but I would not have said that before. It is a lower figure than was previously reported for a variety of reasons - valid case closure, diverting it into community support and looking at things more carefully - but it shows we can now measure a capacity gap of around 5,000 cases. We can state that it is insufficient. It is not that nothing happens to them. They are held by social workers on duty in intake. They are monitored and prioritised, but there is still a gap. I cannot deny that. As a result of the work we have done with the trade union regarding a caseload that varies according to the type of work and the complexity of the case, there is a need, if we merely addressed it in the traditional way, for 220 to 250 social workers.

With regard to making information available, the fully integrated report for quarter one is published on our website today. I will look into the issue of making more information readily available on the website in the normal way. It is there and we would want to make it accessible.

I understand that whether it is being scrutinised here or in the media, there is an interest in knowing whether people are being held to account. They are being held to account. There are limits to transparency and sometimes sharing these things. We believe in high support and rigorous challenge. I have worked with groups of staff where disciplinary procedures have been put aside if people are prepared to engage in deep learning and acknowledge and sign up for responsibility. What went wrong becomes a matter of learning. Merely reverting to discipline is an easy way out; discipline would be too quick a solution. The issues that went wrong in Laois are complex and many and to say it was just because of this or that, would be too easy. Work continues on that and the initial emphasis has been on putting it right.

A number of members have mentioned ICT and I welcome the opportunity to speak about this. It has already been picked up by Deputy Mitchell O'Connor and others that the in-house capacity for ICT is two staff, which is what EWS had. There are approximately 250 to 260 staff in HSE-ICT but we never got any disaggregation from that figure. The theory was that they would continue to provide us with a service, which they do, in terms of keeping our network going and putting the necessary Elastoplast on it. However, in terms of developing the service and bringing up the strategy, it is wanting. Both the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Children and Youth Affairs are sympathetic but we need first of all, because it is an ICT expenditure, to get their permission to go to the market to get more support, such as ICT architects and others. I believe we will get the investment and that is not my quibble, rather, it is about getting the specification right because getting it wrong can lead to further difficulties in getting sufficient resources to get on the front foot.

I do not want any of that translated as being critical of the HSE. It has a very significant change agenda of its own in introducing e-health and other matters but inevitably, because our shared services are not in a customer relationship, I do not have cash or shares that I can trade in and it can all too easily look like a grace and favour relationship which, therefore, varies across the country.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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How confident is Mr. Jeyes that he will be able to achieve his end aim, given what he has just said?

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

I think we will but we go around in a bureaucratic circle in terms of the permissions we need from Departments to go to the market to get extra support to design a system and to build on the brown field site. As the Chairman can imagine, on the day-to-day issues, we are coping with two staff for an organisation of €630 million. I can give other examples. We will stay lean and we have done well but on front line and corporate support terms, it is not sustainable.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is not necessarily about staying lean but it is about the way we interact and how we do business. In Mr. Jeyes's case it is about the need to have that specification.

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

We do not even have the specification yet because we are not getting off the back foot. We need to get the specification correct. My colleague, who is leading on that, came across from the National Educational Welfare Board. She is excellent but I cannot clone her. One can imagine the number of day-to-day demands coming from 4,000 staff to plan, for example, improving the network arrangements in Laois and a dozen other requests every day. On the issue of ICT, we need to plan and we need to eventually get there. In Government terms, speaking to ICT control in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, we would be a top ten priority. I will not name it but an organisation of 195 staff has 20 ICT staff. A large council with about 5,000 staff has 64 ICT staff. We have two ICT staff and we inherited a broken ICT system.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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It is critical.

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

It is not through lack of sympathy but it is a system which can lead one to go around in ever decreasing circles.

Mary Mitchell O'Connor (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Is the organisation with 190 staff a Government body?

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

These are all Government bodies. Deputy Mitchell O'Connor made the point about resources and I will deal with that again. I have been in a leadership role in public services for 25 years. It is always the case that elected members need to keep it under tight and rigorous control in order to give value to the taxpayer. That will never stop so I welcome an open book. HIQA reports have stated there are not enough resources at local level. HIQA has stated it is interested in reporting on a national basis. I have written to the chief executive of HIQA to say that I welcome such a report. I want to know what categories it will examine and what criteria it will use. I wish it to be seen to be the case that we have done very well on extra effort and extra hours and a great deal of willingness and professional support, but it is not sustainable. I would be failing in my duty to the Government, having successfully taken us through the recessionary period, if I were not to provide that advice which I can substantiate.

On the point about Mullingar, there were no reductions in front line services for refugees. There were ancillary reductions in counselling supports. I will be happy to speak to the Deputy outwith. A particular organisation receives resources from us for a number of features. I deeply regret not being able to announce year reductions late in the year. That was past practice, which I thought we had moved beyond. It was unacceptable and I apologise. We need to have clarity in our budget as soon as possible. We need to ensure that we are clear and that we have had the necessary consultations so that we move forward and communicate far earlier than we managed last year.

I welcome Deputy Troy's interest in guardians ad litem. He is quite correct that there needs to be systems of regulation. It needs to go further than that, in my view. There are those in the Judiciary who believe that guardians ad litemare clearly not party to the proceedings and, therefore, they should not, other than in very exceptional circumstances, have legal representation.

Deputy Mitchell O'Connor rightly asks what are we doing to put our own house in order. Last year, we tidied up a lot of historical expenditures on other things. Our legal expenditure was in the order of €36 million. This year it will be near to target of €29 million. Of that, more than 50% will be in guardian ad litemand guardian ad litemlegal costs, each of which is increasing dramatically, in particular, the legal costs and guardian ad litem. It is a normal rule that if one has the chance to spend someone else's money, one is more profligate. The accountability does not work and, therefore, we need to have a register of guardians ad litem, fixed payments and regulation. The responsibility for it should have nothing to do with Tusla. As Senator van Turnhout pointed out, guardians ad litemhave a valuable job and a contribution to make, sometimes holding us to account. Therefore, I cannot hold them to account. The view that I can restrict their movements is not the case. Therefore, any reform or any proposal on pay should not be part of our agency. Accountability and pay, in my view, go together quite strongly.

Deputy McLellan asked about organisational structure. We have a more consistent approach to aftercare. We have the minimum guarantee but our legislative basis is for us to support the young people who are in full-time education or training.

We have to look at the other 32%, not least because of the pressures across Europe. We have had very constructive discussions with the Department of Social Protection. I think children and young people coming out of care should constitute a specific category, regardless of whether they are going back to their families or managing on their own resources. This is happening across Europe. The social protection system, on behalf of the State, should be identifying these young people. If we are giving them an allowance from the State at that point, of course we should be making sure they understand that further or adult education and training are necessary for all of them.

This should not be rocket science. If we work with the authorities that are responsible for housing and social protection to make sure these young people have the right resources, we can close the gap I have mentioned. The small number of children and young people in this group want independence. We can support them in that transition. The Government will legislate to make the plans compulsory. Once these young people become adults, responsibility for them lies with the relevant authorities in areas like education, health, housing and social protection. There is no use in Tusla becoming a mere second-class service that props up these services. That will not work. We have specific responsibilities. We need to increase our street workforce of aftercare workers and advisers who help young people when they get into difficulty. Reference has been made to education and training. We need to build better links with the school completion programme.

I would like to speak about the lack of consistency issue. We are making progress in Louth-Meath, where different practices were adopted, relationship issues existed and the definition of a "referral" needed to be considered. Those matters are being addressed, for example by making sure additional resources are provided, as was done in the midlands. The issues in Louth-Meath were different from the issues in the midlands. It is unfortunate that they arose at the same time. There were particular unacceptable problems in Louth-Meath regarding recruitment and carrying too many vacancies. We are taking positive action to reform that.

We think we need to come up with a budget formula that is based on the number of children in an area with a deprivation who are waiting. We are having further discussions on what degree of weight to attach respectively to the density of urban poverty and the difficulties of rural circumstances, where sparsity or difficulty of accessing services can be additional costs. These discussions are based on very good work that is being taken forward by the HSE. It will be easier to introduce these systems as budgets start to improve modestly, which is what all of Ireland hopes will happen. Some areas will flatline. Areas that have fallen behind will benefit from increases. It was extremely difficult at a time of declining budgets to introduce a new budget formula and move beyond past historic practice. We had to say to people in area X or area Y, "Everybody is losing and you will lose even more". Our work in this regard is a top priority.

I think we have covered the IT issues that were raised by Deputy McLellan. We are proceeding with the national child care information system. We wish to focus on areas that solely have a paper-based system at the moment.

With the exception of those services that have always been provided by Five Rivers, our out-of-hours services are not being outsourced. Five Rivers was given a contract to make sure children in section 12 emergency situations were no longer being left in hospitals or police cells. Its ability to act immediately was illustrated in a fairly recent case in Athlone, when a child was brought into care very quickly. Progress will be made with the out-of-hours service now that agreement has been reached with IMPACT. There will be rotas. We will expand the crisis information service to ensure a phone line is available. Eight contact points will be designated around the country. Advice and support for local staff and institutions will be available. We are now at the stage of seeking volunteers to get staff to identify themselves at a rate that is properly agreed with the unions. I will be happy to provide a further update as that is taken forward.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Will it be a 24-hour service?

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

Agreement on pay to meet the budget that was given to us within this has been achieved recently.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Will the out-of-hours service be a 24-hour service?

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

A telephone line will be available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but there will be a gap in the middle as we wait to determine the actual social work availability. We are able to cost it. It is a major step forward. For example, we will able to say whether any given child is on the database of all children who are in the national child protection system. While that is a small step, culturally it is very significant for us. That system will be available through Harcourt Street to all gardaí and all emergency medical services.

Senator van Turnhout asked about resources. I think the point to be made, other than the corporate point, is that as well as falling over the line in creating a new legal entity with no additional resources, we began from a low base post-Ryan. While international comparisons are fraught with difficulty, by any international comparison we have fewer social workers. We might have one social worker per 3,000 people. The position is probably a bit worse than that. I am familiar with other jurisdictions such as Scotland, which has one social worker per 1,000 people, and England, which has one social worker per 2,200 people. There still needs to be investment, as I have already illustrated. We can objectively quantify the level of current demand. Now that we have audited and measured the pressures, we are having constructive discussions with the Department.

The education and welfare service officers do an excellent job, by any international comparison. We have approximately 62 posts in this area. The whole-time number is probably a bit lower than that. The original estimate, which was based on an international comparison, was that we would have over 300 posts in this area.

I have already said I want some more managers. I know it is a very hard sell to come here and talk about adding to the corporate layer. It is a question of sustainability. We have 4,000 staff, of whom 80, or 2% of the workforce, are managers at Grade 8 and above. I think it is accepted within the HSE and by Tusla that human resources practices need reform. Our human resources director is fully engaged with that. We are exploring ways to take more of it in-house. Again, that has resource issues-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Are engagement, consultation and communication taking place across the board?

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

Mr. Pat Smyth is on the board of the health business services division of the HSE and Ms Colette Walsh is fully engaged in discussions about-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Does this involve staff at all levels?

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

It involves staff at the most senior level. It is a question of making sure big brother does not forget about us. We are like the "noisy neighbours" in Manchester. We are striving to be independent. I hope we are treated as independent. We are fully committed. I accept the governance commitment to shared services, which I have pioneered elsewhere, but it should be with an internal market. There should be budget transactions. We should be able to hold those who provide services for us to account. There is further work to be done in that regard.

I would like to speak about the discussions regarding psychology. I agree with Senator van Turnhout that we have created a gap between our welfare responsibilities and the mental health services. Services for disturbed young people, who often display very difficult behaviour that is hard to contain, need to be improved and enhanced. Discussions regarding psychology have not made as much progress as I would wish. I will shortly write to the HSE to say I do not think we can take those discussions any further. They think that an ever-reducing number should be coming across to us. This has been a three-year pattern. I do not think it is going anywhere. It is stuck. I need to refer it to both Departments for adjudication.

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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That is very worrying.

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

If a small party is negotiating with big brother without independent-----

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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It is extremely worrying.

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

It will never work. Why would they want to give up resources?

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Yes.

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

We are now applying a consistent threshold to children in care. We need to work further and continue to be seen as more reliable, because Ireland still does not do permanency planning as well as it could. A well-known children's rights advocate who is sometimes very critical of Tusla has described some of the courts as parents' rights courts. There is a balance to this. Now that the referendum is being homologated, I hope we are also taking account of the need for children to have their attachment areas and the need to give parents who are recovering from difficulties with alcohol or drugs, etc., time to recover. We should not play "in and out" with children. I think I have covered the points on Children First.

It is important that we focus on solving the initial issue affecting homeless children and children who are recently arrived migrants. Children are best with their families, and whether it is a case of emergency accommodation or providing enough homes, the focus must be on this. We are aware of the need to ensure that children in families dealt with by the Reception and Integration Agency are protected and in the right circumstances. It is not right to put children in situations which make child protection difficult and then push another demand onto another Government agency.

The problem is section 3 and not our guidance. We need a fundamental review of the 1991 Act to ensure the responsibilities of social workers entail social work and that investigatory responsibilities are Garda responsibilities. We will take this forward in partnership. I know of the concerns that many of my social work colleagues have about this, but the guidance is there to ensure fair process is followed and we do not get into expensive difficulties with the courts at a later stage. We stand by this policy and guidance, while we are happy to contribute, as we do in a working group with the Department, to a full review of the 1991 legislation.

With regard to guardians ad litem, we report mediation. As I have illustrated, we are seeking to put our own house in order and use legal action as last resort and judiciously. The business plan report is the progress we have made in the first two quarters set in the corporate plan, and copies are available.

I take the points made by Deputy Mitchell O'Connor about extra resources. The leader I worked with in Cambridgeshire used to tell us not to come in waving shrouds. We are not shroud waving. We are happy to be objectively examined by whomsoever. We have a duty to provide the service the Dáil expects and value for the Irish taxpayer. We provide a statutory service, and we need resources to meet expectations. Of course there should be validation that what we say is accurate. Dáil Members, Departments and Ministers must make decisions based on knowledge.

It is very difficult to make the case for Ireland's most vulnerable children. When something goes wrong we wring our hands, so I must make the case for those who are sometimes voiceless. Issues in hospitals, schools and elsewhere are important, but from our history we know that so are the most vulnerable. We have made progress, but unless there is investment we will slip down a snake, having climbed a small ladder.

The work of aligning education and welfare is important, because it is the same children who are affected. We are making progress on this, not least in aligning under the Government's injunction school completion programmes, education welfare and home-school liaison. We wish to put these together in a unified approach. That is a start.

We do not have responsibility for children affected by disability, and this includes autism. We need to be clear and effective in what we do so as not become a secondary service.

Mary Mitchell O'Connor (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The parenting strategy Mr. Jeyes mentioned-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will allow the Deputy to speak at the end.

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

Mr. Quinlan will answer.

Mr. Cormac Quinlan:

The parenting strategy has been developed and published on our website and is available. It is absolutely expected in the strategy that we will engage and consult with parents, and a toolkit is being developed to support this engagement. Under our prevention partnership and family support functions we have managers in all 17 areas, who lead the programme in the areas to support this work. It is in development and it will happen in the coming years.

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

To answer Deputy Ó Caoláin, we have covered some of the issues regarding out-of-hours services. As we put in place the final plans I will be happy to provide them. I have every confidence in the hard-working staff and leadership in north Dublin. We have been in existence for 18 months and the report stated that the progress in improving our partnership with the Garda has been impressive over the past 12 months. Some of the initial publicity whereby attention was drawn to half a paragraph of criticism and not the improvement was unfortunate. Our partnership with the Garda is good and needs to remain steady. It always needs to be monitored. Delays are unacceptable. The issue of physical abuse is particularly interesting with regard to how it fits into our multicultural policy in ensuring families understand the standards expected of them. We have been working with the immigrant family support unit and others to improve our understanding and cultural diversity training and we work with the agents of these communities locally.

In Dublin, although not necessarily in the rest of the country, turnover is quite high. The average age of those in the social work profession is lower than elsewhere. As well as working on recruitment, we must work on retention, and getting the agency fully staffed will assist with this. We do not always know what case will be complex when we start it. As was rightly said, we want to have supervision. The north Dublin report stated that supervision was good, governance was strong, management was experienced and oversight was present, as well as stating the areas for development. In these circumstances, I am confident that new social workers and those returning to the profession are getting support. We are a service under pressure and sometimes this support and nurturing can suffer.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Jeyes stated that legal costs would still be in the region of €29 million this year, which is 50%-----

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

More than 50% will go on guardians ad litem.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Jeyes is happy with the legal fees? I imagine not. Does he feel that a priority in his engagement with the Minister should be the introduction of the necessary legislation for regulations to deal with proper supervision, training, monitoring and accountability in the service? I accept that it should be removed from Tusla. If this were introduced and it included adequate savings, the money saved could be diverted to the areas that Mr. Jeyes has identified as needing additional resources.

I will take up Mr. Jeyes on his offer regarding the report, and I would appreciate if he sent it on to me. On the day of the meeting on Laois and Offaly, I asked Tusla to check that proper procedures were being implemented in all 17 areas. Mr. Jeyes stated that there was capacity to deal with approximately 5,000 cases and he acknowledged that there was still a gap. Will he quantify the number of social workers he feels are required in our jurisdiction? What is the shortfall with regard to maternity cover?

In his reply to questions, Mr. Jeyes stated that 24-hour cover would be rolled out when Tusla had the necessary funding. Perhaps I misunderstood him. Will he outline in a little more detail the proposed 24-hour system to be rolled out? From his original contribution I felt it would be rolled out in September, but from what he said later I understood it to be when funds are in place.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The roll-out in September is my main concern and I join Deputy Troy in wanting more clarity on this. I referenced the use of agency staff with regard to the north Dublin report, which mentioned inexperienced and newly qualified staff and some staff coming from agencies. What is Tusla's dependence on agencies and what steps is it taking to move away from this dependency? How soon does Mr. Jeyes think Tusla will be able to get to a stand-alone, fully engaged, permanent cohort of social workers?

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

I will take the guardian ad litempoint first. It has been flawed from the start in Ireland and drifted a little. I am delighted that the Government has asked the Department of Children and Youth Affairs to bring forward proposals. It has been consulting us and we have responded. I will be writing further to it. I expect proposals to be brought forward. I was stressing to the committee that I did not think it should involve me. Of course, I think it is ripe for reform. It is a necessary part of the system. Registration, regulation and having an improved system are priorities. I believe the Government accepts this and will publish proposals shortly.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, legal fees are still too high.

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

I am always criticised for picking on the courts, but there are too many lawyers in them. We had a case recently which was complicated from a practice point of view but not legally. There were four siblings and two guardians ad litem, while each parent was represented separately, each having a solicitor and a junior and senior counsel. We only had a solicitor. We have de-escalated and need to make sure the same happens on the other side, as it is not necessary. It is not a legal matter; it is a question of the balance of probabilities in the interests of the child. I also believe the oversight, wisdom and compassion of the Judiciary are required. There is a fundamental need to reform the system to make sure it is less legalistic, less adversarial and based more on mediation and arbitration.

I am sorry if I confused the committee regarding out-of-hours social work. Funding has been available and the system will be launched in September. It may be that in the first iteration there will be a couple of hours in the middle of the night when there is no cover available. If the system is working and there is the demand, further funding will be put in place to make sure it is a 24-7 sevice. It is available out of hours every day of the year.

Following the Laois-Offaly case, we have reviewed the provision and arrangements made in all 17 areas, 15 of which have been reviewed by the Health Information and Quality Authority. One will be reviewed shortly and we also had our own internal audit. I am aware of a very small number, about which I am concerned. We have also considered resource issues in Sligo, which were rightly raised. We are trying to obtain additional staff to address some of the issues involved. I have confidence in management, the processes and arrangements made, but we must make sure there is backup available. If we are successful in our request in the Estimates for additional social workers, we will need to address the backlog and make sure that, having got on the front foot, we do not revert. Therefore, the complement on duty and the intake in child protection teams for children in care need to be increased. We think the capacity gap is in the region of 5,000, to whom we are not allocating full-time teams as quickly as we would like. The 500 investigations into allegations of abuse should be dealt with in a more specialist way. To do all of this, discussions are ongoing in the Department. If we were to address it in the traditional way, it would lead to a requirement for between 200 and 280 additional social workers.

Ms Walsh will answer the question posed about the agency.

Ms Colette Walsh:

We are reviewing the timeline for recruitment and selection in Manorhamilton acknowledging that the timeline for the landing of social workers in posts is not effective and delays the effective delivery of service. We have reviewed the timelines and are in discussions with the Department. We have also reviewed the number of agency staff and are in discussions with the unions on the regularisation of agency staff to consolidate the service while we clear the backlog and identify future recruitment levels and the numbers of social workers required.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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About how great a number are we talking?

Ms Colette Walsh:

At the end of May we had 159 agency social workers.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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How many vacancies are there?

Ms Colette Walsh:

We have a number of posts that we have processed and posts being processed in Manorhamilton. We do not count vacancies, but we do count posts processed in Manorhamilton. As of the end of May, 170 posts were being processed, of which 159 were being covered by agency staff. We have had discussions with IMPACT, with which the agreement is that we can regularise agency staff for an interim period of two years to consolidate the service and the agency. In that time we can do the work required to measure the level of pressure and evaluate the number of social workers required for the service in the future.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Did Mr. Jeyes say there was a capacity issue for approximately 5,000 additional cases?

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

We believe the regulator’s examination of the audit of unallocated cases shows that an accurate figure for the number of cases held longer than we would like is approximately 5,000.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Tusla will need between 200 and 280 additional social workers on top of what is in train to fully meet-----

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

That is correct, to meet current demand. There is separate correspondence on what may happen after the enactment of the Children First Bill.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I asked about the 2,031 cases deemed to be a high priority to which a social worker had not been allocated. The Minister has often stated anybody who is a high priority is allocated a social worker, but Tusla’s monthly performance and activity dashboard shows that 2,031 are still waiting. For how long will they have to wait? What is the breakdown of that number?

Mr. Brian Lee:

All urgent high-risk cases are addressed immediately. High priority does not necessarily mean high risk. It is a prioritisation scheme for us. Within the high-priority category the majority are seen within three months. We have reduced that waiting list by half in the past year. All urgent cases are addressed immediately.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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There is a difference.

Mr. Brian Lee:

There is.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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The additional 280 social workers will address that issue.

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

That is the most important part of it.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Let me ask a ridiculous question. When does Tusla think it will have an additional 280 social workers? Will it be in a year or two years?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Jeyes do the lotto?

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I presume it is down to the budget allocated.

Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

I never do the lotto. However, I do wish to participate fully in the debate on how hard-won taxpayers’ money is spent and making sure a fair share of it is spent for the most vulnerable. What is needed and expected of us now is quantifiable. We need more next year and probably for several years. In addition, we have recently had discussions with IMPACT about family support measures and how we could consider caseloads if social workers were to be better resourced as leaders with administrative and para-professional support services. Within the same resource cake we could engage in a re-design. In Ireland it is very tightly managed in terms of regulation and there must be a social worker for every case.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank all of the delegates and the staff on the front line for the tremendous and valuable work they do on our behalf. I thank Ms Walsh, Ms Byrne, Mr. Jeyes, Mr. Smyth, Mr. Quinlan and Mr. Lee for being here. We will arrange another quarterly meeting.