David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of this part of the meeting is to receive a briefing from the Churchfield Community Trust on the work it is undertaking. I understand briefing materials have been circulated to members. On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Ms Eileen O'Brien, project director, Mr. Paul O'Donnell, deputy project director, and Sr. Jo McCarthy, board member. I thank the witnesses for giving their time and expertise. The format is that I will invite our guests to make a brief opening statement lasting approximately five minutes, after which we will have a question-and-answer session with members.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Eileen O'Brien:

On behalf of the three of us, I thank the joint committee for giving us the opportunity to speak about the work in which we are involved in Cork. This visit had its beginnings in the visit that the Chairman, Deputy David Stanton, made to the project a number of weeks ago. He was quite impressed by what he saw and especially by what he heard from the lads whom he met and who spoke freely to him.

We work with ex-offenders, ex-prisoners and people on the edges of the criminal justice system. The men who present to us were, at one stage, small boys who were hurt and had to manage very difficult situations in their home environments and communities. The journey to where they are now was quite difficult. When we speak about ex-prisoners and ex-offenders, we conjure up a mental picture of what somebody like that looks like, but, from our experience, that mental picture is not the whole truth. They started out in their families and with parents just as we started out in ours and their parents had hopes and dreams for their children like we have for ours. The men in question had links across many Departments and agencies from a very young age and even their mothers and fathers were clients of the Department of Social Protection. They had an involvement with the HSE and the Department of Justice and Equality and, very early in their lives, were already on the edges of the education system. In terms of social disadvantage, they are a targeted group. A lot of transgenerational issues come into play in the lives of these men and we work in a very creative way to address some of these needs and issues. A core part of our work is to cut across these difficulties.

Addiction plays a big part in underpinning mid-range crime. It is a lonely, isolated and vulnerable place, even though it is not always seen on the outside. In the work we do we see the underbelly of addiction. Recovery is very tough, often lonely and very challenging and all of the men in our project are either recovering from addiction or making steps towards recovery. We, the footsoldiers on the ground, meet the raw reality of their lives. We look into their eyes and see the results of the difficulties in their lives. We are in direct contact with their struggle as they try to stay clean, sober up and stay out of trouble in order that they can manage themselves and their families. Many of them are fathers.

We work from a relationship model based on the Servol model piloted in the West Indies and brought to us through the congregations that are our trustees. We do not try to tell these guys how to be or what to do but support them to be self-reflective and self-determining and seek their own answers. We try to bring them into contact with their own goodness and potential. In the future we hope to continue to be resourced to do more of this work in an holistic way. One of the things we hope for from the meeting is that the committee will support new ways of working in this field. We believe what we do works really well and that there is a lot of evidence to show this. There is great potential for the model to be used in other areas because the difficulties we are meeting in Cork city are to be found in all communities across the country. We have met various challenges along the way and if any member of the committee wishes to ask questions about how we have overcome and met these challenges, we would be more than willing to answer.

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

I will speak about social enterprise at Churchfield Community Trust and about the garden café which is widely regarded as Cork's greenest café. It is situated on the grounds of Cork Foyer in Blackpool and located in a beautiful Victorian glasshouse which is open to the public Monday to Friday each week, 12 months a year, providing morning coffee, freshly baked scones and home baking. An exciting lunch menu is on offer daily using the finest seasonal produce sourced from our community allotment and local producers. It is important to note that this is a non-profit initiative. The social enterprise came about because of a difficulty in sourcing work experience and employment opportunities when the economic downturn was at its peak. Funding has been sourced from a number of organisations to which we are grateful, including the statutory and non-statutory funders which are shown on page 9 of the document. A full detailed breakdown is given on page 10 and a further breakdown is available on request.

At first glance, our café aspires to the highest standards of many other restaurants. However, there is a wider picture which focuses on the promotion of social reintegration through formal and informal training in several contexts. Participants receive experiential on-site training, while also receiving formal training in electronic point of sale training, food hygiene which is HACCP certified, food preparation, customer service and communication skills and basic bookkeeping skills. Our staff team comprises a team leader who is employed through the JobsPlus initiative of the Department of Social Protection and two part-time staff members sourced from the local community. We have one JobBridge intern who has completed her nine-month placement and one part-time jobs incentive scheme staff member working up to 23 hours per week. A staff member who was formerly participating in a community employment initiative works on a casual basis and we have two community employment scheme special category substance misuse support placements. We also have one community service placement who works the complete hours in co-operation with us and the Probation Service.

The continued development of the garden café initiative is, in no small way, attributable to a partnership approach involving the Churchfield Community Trust, Cork City Council which provides the garden café glasshouse under a licence agreement, the Department of Social Protection initiatives, the Cork City Education and Training Board, local businesses which provide experiential training and other businesses which provide sponsorship for the new website we recently developed. The continuing success of the initiative can be attributed to the unique community spirit and goodwill in Blackpool which is in the heart of Cork city. It is essentially about bringing out the best in people and helping them to realise their true potential.

I draw the committee's attention to our successful record in terms of progression to further training and employment, including the full-time employment of a team leader, a catering assistant who has now gained employment in a nursing home, a former trainee who is now training as a chef at Cork Institute of Technology and a catering assistant who is now completing a catering course at Cork College of Commerce.

We have facilitated temporary release from Loughan House of somebody who is interested in catering. We also facilitate work placements on requests.

I would also like to speak about new initiatives. At our workshop which is based at Churchfield, a range of bespoke early-era furniture and garden products are currently being developed by our workshop manager and team. The craftsmanship is of an extremely high standard. We would also draw attention to the co-operation with local businesses, such as Akzo Nobel, where we received a contract for Bloom, which involved the assembly and painting in an assortment of colours of picnic tables and also the designing, construction and finishing of garden benches, which took place in June of this year.

The committee may be interested to know the following about our outreach initiative. Over a period of time, it became evident that there was an emerging need locally to give support to persons in the areas of substance misuse and offending behaviour. This cohort could not access community employment or, indeed, our garden café initiative due to limited availability of places. I would refer the committee to the briefing document which depicts a list of issues and challenges that need addressing for clients in our outreach category. These include accommodation, addiction, mental health, methadone involvement, finance and debt, literacy, low self-esteem, difficult life experiences, unemployment and education deficits.

This initiative includes the continuous development of a programme which includes horticulture, stonework and landscaping. It also would include one-to-one key working. This aspect of our service is not fully resourced and ongoing efforts are made to secure sustainable funding.

Networking with external agencies is of vital importance. I acknowledge the support of the HSE through the health action zone through suicide awareness training which would include SafeTALK, Cork Simon, Ables literacy support and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul.

As an organisation, we remain flexible to new Irish Prison Service sentence management approaches. While engaging with persons in both pre-release and post-release contexts, through a relationship model Churchfield Community Trust facilitates a shift in attitudes, values and beliefs sustained by new social and economic opportunities. Referral sources re potential outreach participants include self-referrals, the Probation Service, the Irish Association for the Social Integration of Offenders through Cork Prison, Portlaoise Prison and the Midlands Prison, IASIO, training and employment officer, the Cork Alliance Centre and addiction services.

We respond to challenges which present through engaging with the person in a respectful way while empowering decision-making through collaborative practice. This process is active, participatory, mutual, respectful and transparent. This places the individual at the centre of the change process rather than programmes or procedures.

Our outreach programme acts as a signposting service for other services, such as addiction services, Money Advice and Budgeting Service, counselling, addiction counselling, the training and employment office I mentioned previously, the alcohol and offending behaviour programme which will be piloted on 27 July, and literacy support in terms of filling out applications and general forms.

In the five-year period between 2008 and 2014 Churchfield Community Trust worked with a total of 168 clients referred through the Probation Service, the Irish Prison Service, IASIO and other agencies. Some 2.49% of clients re-offended while engaging with Churchfield Community Trust. In 2014, 66 persons engaged re support. The breakdown here would include: 13 community employment places, 16 outreach placements, 19 brief interventions, four persons who did not engage, two community service persons who would have completed community service hours, one person who we redirected, one JobBridge intern who I mentioned previously and a part-time job incentive scheme person who I also mentioned previously. I would also mention our nine garden café team. The referral agency statistics for 2014-15 show we had 25 probation referrals, 16 IASIO referrals, seven self-referrals and nine other agency referrals.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ferris, who indicated first, will begin the questions.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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I welcome the witnesses here today. The presentation and the document they sent makes for interesting reading. I did not realise that the Churchfield Community Trust provided such a tremendous service. I thank the Chairman for inviting them along today. He must have been impressed when he visited them.

I am looking for information on the success rate of their programmes following engagement with offenders, for example, the percentage who have entered permanent stable employment after completing the programmes, the percentage who have come through the programmes successfully, the percentage who have required further programmes because at the conclusion of a programme the staff might have felt the person required to be on a further programme, and the percentage who have re-offended after completion of the programme. I am not sure whether they would have any idea of those figures.

Ms Eileen O'Brien:

We do not have figures on persons once they leave us. We are not resourced to do any sort of tracking once they leave us. It is something we certainly feel is important, in terms of the sustainability of the work and how they have integrated what they have learned as they move on and go into work. Anecdotally, we hear constantly about the lads who are doing well as it is a small community in Cork but we would not have hard evidence. It is something on which we hope to link with UCC and perhaps get a PhD student to take on that piece of work for us.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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It would be interesting to conduct a follow-up, even on an unofficial basis for the trust's use, to see the success rate of them and how they are getting on. In addition, perhaps the participants themselves would appreciate a reminder, not to be checked up on but as a follow-up to ensure they are okay at a support level. It would be good.

Mr. O'Donnell mentioned the 12 issues that need addressing for clients in the outreach category. It is important to put them on the record again as there are so many of them and they are all diverse. The list is accommodation, addiction, mental health, methadone involvement, relationship issues, anger management, finance and debt, literacy, low self-esteem, difficult early life experiences, unemployment and education deficits. In trying to get an idea of those 12 issues, would there be some more prevalent than others in participants of the programme? Would any of those 12 issues with which they would present be more serious than the others or would they present with a bit of all of them? To what extent do any of those issues impede persons going on the programme? These are all serious difficulties and one, in itself, would be a problem. If they are experiencing a lot of these issues, it must be really tough.

Ms Eileen O'Brien:

It certainly is. When one thinks about the early difficulties, there are a lot of developmental deficits, even between age nought and age 5, and in middle childhood and into the teens the educational deficits play a part. If I was say what presents across the board, addiction is what brings them to the door. In recent years, because of the polydrug use, there are associated mental health difficulties because the cocktails of chemicals cause various mental disturbances. Therefore, mental health issues are very much to the fore as well.

It can be taken that there are some levels of literacy difficulties, especially with guys in their 30s. The younger lads are benefiting from some of the early interventions that have been in place in the educational system in the past 15 years or so. However, before that those interventions were not available so we come across lads in their 30s with numeracy and literacy difficulties. The low self-esteem is par for the course.

In recent times accommodation is becoming more of an issue. Young men on their own are way down the priority for housing. We sometimes get support from Cork Simon Community or perhaps from other supported living situations where, following treatment, sometimes there is a phase two treatment where they might get accommodation for three or four months. The Simon Community has some independent houses - dry houses - and the lads can stay there for up to six months.

Mr. O'Donnell might like to add to that.

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

Regarding unemployment, the garden café initiative provides stability for persons who have completed our programme. It also gives them the opportunity to realise the potential we believe these people have. They have the same potential as the next person. The outcomes I mentioned previously are real outcomes. It is heartening to see people going to college or learning a trade and going back into the workplace and keeping a job. It is important for these men, their families and their children.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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How many people are employed in the garden café and for what length of time?

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

We have nine people employed in the garden café. This was an initiative we started out of necessity.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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Is it just for a certain length of time before they move on to something else or would it be indefinite?

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

It depends on their skill level and the interest they have to progress.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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It is important that I read these out. We think of one as being a huge problem, but it is worse if they are all put together. As the witnesses have said, addiction leads on to the other problems such as loss of accommodation, mental illness and issues with anger management. There is a domino effect. I appreciate the presentation and I thank the witnesses.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations and correspondence which are very enlightening. I am unclear about the Servol model and I ask the witnesses to give me a synopsis of it. I understand the idea behind it and that it is to support clients to be self-determining.

I am not doing very well on questions today. This is my second time to ask questions that have already been asked. I am obviously not quick enough off the mark. How many clients does Churchfield Community Trust have? Do they carry out a programme? Does it last for a certain length of time? Do they come in from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.? I would be interested to hear about the items other than the garden café. Obviously the things mentioned are not just Cork problems, but apply nationwide. We have a stepping out programme in Athlone. I wonder how similar it is.

Deputy Anne Ferris asked for information about what happens to clients after they leave. How difficult is it for them to get employment if they have a criminal record? Does Churchfield Community Trust assist them with getting employment and how difficult is that?

Ms Eileen O'Brien:

We have considerable difficulty. We seek what we tend to call sympathetic employers, but they are very few and far between. Our lads will always be at the end of the list in terms of qualifications and readiness for work. They also have gaps in their careers. It is hard for a person who has been inside for three or four years to account for that in a CV.

As Mr. O'Donnell mentioned, we opened the garden café in response to the lack of opportunities in employment for our lads as they were leaving. Especially during the downturn there was no hope of placements or getting work. As we had to respond in some way, we created our own opportunities for employment. We sometimes get together with other community employment schemes. We might take a placement from another scheme and that service would take a placement from us. Some placements are worked through networking and whom one knows. However, getting jobs is difficult. We have a few lads who are driving and delivering pizzas, but it is really difficult. That is why we want to progress the social enterprise.

We have a very good skills base. We have an excellent workshop that was funded through the Probation Service. We are making really good furniture and we have some good ideas about doing some work with the Department of Social Protection so that instead of a lad going back on the dole, with some seed capital and some conversations we might be able to set up a more work-orientated workshop where they could be employed and generate income.

A core part of progression and integration into mainstream life is for these men to actually work. Men need to work. It brings an additional set of feel-good factors to be able to provide for one's family. I am not saying it is not important for women too, but for the man in the house it is really important to have regained his ground in the house and be able to work. It has a big impact on the children and the whole family. We struggle equally with trying to find employment.

As Mr. O'Donnell mentioned we would really like to see something happening with apprenticeships. Coming from the lower levels of the academic system, many of these lads would have learned woodwork and mechanical drawing. In their own families they are good with their hands and they do not struggle as much in those sorts of settings. We hope to set something up with the Construction Industry Federation to try to help them in that way.

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

The Irish Association for the Social Integration of Offenders has two training and employment officers based in the Probation Service in Cork. We find them to be very effective. They provide particular support to our participants in returning to education or progression to the workplace.

I highlight the importance of networking in the absence of infinite funding. We network with many other organisations in Cork in terms of the resources we may have and the resources they may have. I cannot understate the importance of the IASIO training employment officers to our participants.

We have a community employment scheme on our full-time programme that runs for participants in recovery from addiction through a community employment model for 19.5 hours a week. These are special category substance misuse community employment placements. Participants engage in education, training, work experience, therapeutic massage, acupuncture, personal development and group work. We have a therapeutic masseuse who attends once a week and an acupuncturist who attends twice a week. We have general group work that we would set up, as I mentioned previously, through the health action zone, including suicide awareness training.

I refer members to page 6 of the briefing document which gives a breakdown of other programme areas.

These comprise occupational first aid, preparation for work, food and nutrition, food and cookery, information technology, woodcraft, personal and interpersonal skills, horticulture - seeding and propagation, and vegetable growing, which we would link in directly to providing seasonal produce for the café. It is possible to run this programme because we have an excellent team. They are a dedicated bunch.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I welcome Ms O'Brien, Mr. O'Donnell, Sr. Jo McCarthy and the Churchfield Community Trust. They are very welcome to this committee. I join my colleagues in commending their work, because it is a very valuable and sensible community response to a major issue with prisoners and addiction, whether it is drugs or alcohol. It is important in a modern society that we look at sensible solutions to some of the problems that exist. Before I became a Deputy, I worked in a very disadvantaged area and listening to many of the issues that were mentioned reminds me of my previous day job. My first question goes back to Mr. O'Donnell's remarks that 85% of post-release clients have positive outcomes. When he uses the phrase "moved on" or "moved on to other services", what kind of services would they move on to?

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

In some cases people would link in with us through our outreach programme initially and would then progress to community employment. We would maintain a relationship with these people, having established trust, and would work with them first in our outreach and then in community employment. Some opportunities may arise in the garden café, as we spoke about previously. We are looking at expanding our horticulture initiative. We are taking on contracts at present for maintenance of various projects and we hope to implement phase 3 of our enterprise initiative. In terms of progression, I referred previously to training and employment officers. Returning to college may be an option for some persons or, ideally, returning to work. However, the options for returning to work for people with a low skills base are minimal.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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My second question relates to the fact that, as the witnesses may be aware, this committee is doing a report at the moment on gangland intimidation in communities, which is directly related to the drugs issue. Recently, we visited Portugal where we looked at different options relating to this issue. Part of the system there involves alternative sanctions for drug possession where they go down the health route rather than the criminal justice route. How much benefit would the removal of criminal sanctions, such as criminal records, have on those who pass the trust's programmes?

Ms Eileen O'Brien:

The whole area needs to be looked at with discernment. Many of our lads would be in and out of prison. They would often be caught with stuff for their own use and they might be just at the point of moving on when the charge comes up and they are back in court and back inside and it seems that cycle can continue for quite a while. If we were to look at the Portuguese model and apply it here, it would have a positive impact, especially on the young men who have decided to look at themselves and their relationship with substances and have begun turning the corner and heading towards recovery rather than staying involved in that addiction loop. At times, they are just out of treatment or have just completed a day programme and they are put back into prison. It can often set them back for another year or more. Sometimes the sentence needs to stand, but there might be some discernment in order that when they go into prison, they may have the option of being in a drug-free unit or a setting where their recovery could be supported in a more holistic way. Unfortunately, some of the prisons cannot offer that option but it is worth exploring. Much of the time, it is treatment these lads need rather than another sentence, or at least a facility where they are in a space where they can reflect and assess themselves rather than just being given the custodial sentence.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The trust is dealing with many disadvantaged young men. The issue of early school leaving came up in respect of getting involved in drug culture. My big concern is that sometimes we get at these young men too late. Do the witnesses see the need for further intervention services before they end up with the trust or before they end up in prison? Years ago, we used to say that if we had not got them by ten, they were gone. They were on the way to Mountjoy. That was the saying we had. If we had not saved those kids who came from the dysfunctional families, drugs families or those where there was domestic violence, they were already on their way to Mountjoy. Most gardaí and social workers would have said that about particular parts of Dublin city.

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

The importance of voluntary organisations in communities cannot be understated. There is a great deal of positive work being done by GAA clubs and scouting organisations, for example, in every town in the country. If young people are involved and mentored at an early age, it can have a significant impact.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I apologise for hogging the speaking time. Another group of children from those families that are often forgotten about are those who do not play football, soccer, Gaelic football or hurling. They are the other 15%, as we used to call them, who are not into that kind of stuff. They are left hanging around disadvantaged areas or blocks of flats where they are totally exposed. My point is that we need to get in there early with creative services to nab those kids before it is too late.

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

I agree. Early intervention is key.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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May I ask one more question? Please stop me if I am running over time.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is fine. His line of questioning is very interesting.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I am only warming up. In the report, there was mention of an independent evaluation in 2003, 2008 and 2010. I am asking this question because sections of society or politics will take the stuff we are talking about today with a grain of salt and will not necessarily agree with it. They will just take the approach of locking them up and throwing away the key. Who conducted this independent evaluation and was it a complete outside independent evaluation of the project?

Ms Eileen O'Brien:

It was carried out by Clarity consultants. It was completely independent. It was prior to us receiving funding from the Dormant Accounts Fund, before we built our workshop and the trustees purchased the house next door, and it was at a significant time in the development of the project. The cost does not come to mind straight away, but I remember her saying to us that it might not be cheap, but it was certainly effective. At the time, we only had space for six people.

We only had very small facilities. Since then we have expanded threefold, despite the downturn and reductions in funding.

What has kept us so focused is the model we are using, which underpins our success. Deputy McFadden asked a little while ago about the Servol model. Servol came from two words, "serve" and "all". It was pioneered in the West Indies by the Presentation Brothers, I think. There are three main components to the method. The first is attentive listening. Unless I truly listen to someone's experience, I cannot really respond. The second is a philosophy of ignorance. I do not know what it is like to put my head down in a prison cell or to be at the raw end of life, homeless, addicted and all that. I am ignorant about those experiences. The third is that I have to be really aware of my cultural arrogance. As a professional, I can come into any disadvantaged area and put myself on higher ground by saying I know the answer to your problems. It is such a subtle relationship and requires subtle judgement sometimes. When we meet the lads, we see them as other human beings. We do not judge them for what they have done. They are so used to being judged, they have their antennae up and out like stalks. They will know in a flash. It is non-verbal and that is how a lot of stuff is communicated. It is so important that we do not judge.

There also has to be respectful intervention. It is all about respect and acceptance, accepting where people are at and starting from there. The Servol model underpins the work. Even with the garden cafe, we could not run it like a commercial enterprise. It is a beautiful place but we have to keep the clients in the centre of the picture all the time - their needs, their journey. We are here to serve, and for us, it is a service to them rather than some sort of profit-making idea. If there is ego involved, we are on the wrong page. That might give a bigger understanding of the approach. Sometimes it is difficult to stay loyal to one's approach because one can be led in other directions with certain funding criteria and other influences. We have tried to stay loyal to the model.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. Are there any further questions?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I was glad to hear Ms O'Brien say the trust used the Dormant Accounts Fund. That is the kind of funding that is very valuable for these projects.

On working with disadvantaged communities, in the 1980s during the heroin epidemic on the north side of Dublin, teachers, gardaí, social workers or juvenile liaison officers did not come into certain communities and demand or get respect. We had to go in and earn it. Once we had the respect of the community, we got massive support from families and extended families.

Going back to the addiction issue, the witnesses' report says the common denominator to all mid-range crime by 18 to 30 year olds is addiction. My fundamental question is how we reduce that. They are the same young people who are causing havoc as well.

Ms Eileen O'Brien:

Addiction is a very complex, layered issue and very difficult to tackle. I have training and a lot of experience in family systems, looking at systemic and transgenerational issues. The fact that the cycle has gone on for three generations does not mean we cannot break it.

Sometimes, when we are working with these men, we say it is their children who will be the first beneficiaries. For every day at our project that a lad is clean and sober, if he is going home to a family, his family is benefiting and so is his community. While it is complex and complicated, it is not unattainable. We keep trying and looking. We keep up our reflective practice, asking ourselves how we might do it differently or better. We involve the people we are working with, their experiences, and apply what is learned.

We are working in a systematic way with our lads. They are looking at their families and joining the dots of their experiences. They are not feeling so ashamed by what has been going on in their lives because they are getting more understanding and insight. There are very good reasons all these men end up defensive and angry. They have had really difficult lives and, to manage them, have taken on extreme defensive behaviours. Sometimes I feel they cannot be any other way. If they could, they would. Not one of our lads wants to be as he is. There is an inherent goodness in all of them if we can manage to peel back the layers. It takes time and resources, and therapeutic interventions are necessary all along the way. I am not sure if I am answering Deputy Finian McGrath's question but I feel we have to keep on trying. We are making headway.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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From working with the trust's service users, has the issue of intimidation in the community come up in respect of ex-prisoners and ex-addicts? Are they being sucked back in? We have a major problem in Dublin city. We have had 12 gang-related deaths over the past 12 months. Many of them were ex-prisoners or ex-addicts who were told to shoot a person who owed the big gangland boss €3,000 €5,000 or €7,000. We call them gang debt killings. These are totally dysfunctional people doing crazy things and regretting it for the rest of their lives.

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

I think it is important to continue to work with people, particularly at a young age, when they relapse or reoffend. It is important to provide safety for them when that relapse occurs. At times, participants may relapse and we continue to provide intervention. I also feel that although people may go to prison, we need to keep the connection there when they are serving a sentence. It is important to continue to engage with them pre-release and post-release with a view to reintegration back into the community once the sentence is served. The link must be maintained.

In terms of younger participants, I see restorative justice initiatives as important. There was a specific participant who offended and participated in a restorative justice practice.

I would say he was able to maintain his employment and move beyond the issue. I know I have not answered Deputy Finian McGrath's question directly but I would say it is important to continue to engage with people when they reoffend and relapse.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Has Churchfield Community Trust centre experienced intimidation of some of its service users?

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

I could not comment on any individual participant.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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From 2002 up to 2015?

Mr. Paul O'Donnell:

I would not be aware of it.

Ms Eileen O'Brien:

Is the Deputy asking whether we have had the experience of some of our lads being intimidated?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Yes.

Ms Eileen O'Brien:

No. I think the scene in Dublin is much more advanced in terms of the gangland issue. We do not have that. Clearly there are groups of people working together in Cork, but it has not come to the fore. In our experience it does not present as an issue. I think the lads are often lured back into the world of addiction, perhaps not necessarily gangland crime. Once they are back in the world of addiction, they are at risk of all that goes with it.

We encourage almost an alternative community. Once one goes into recovery, one says goodbye to what one did before, and who one was with and where one went before. Addiction will always hold lads in that risky and at-risk category.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Some of the gangs in Dublin do not do debt forgiveness. It could be for a small amount of money.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Ms O'Brien said they were not as advanced as Dublin. It might be a cautionary note to sound for other parts of the country and on which to end.

I visited Churchfield Community Trust centre and was highly impressed with the work. I appreciate that the work the young men, whom I met, are doing is very difficult for them. I was amazed at the progress they are making and how hard they are trying to get out of their level of addiction.

I thank the witnesses, Ms Eileen O'Brien, Mr. Paul O'Donnell and Sr. Jo McCarthy for being here today and for they are doing. Sr. Jo McCarthy did not speak, but we know the work that she and her colleagues in the orders are doing behind the scenes. Sr. Jo was inspired to start up this centre initially.

We will now go into private session to deal with some housekeeping matters.