Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the delegates for their presentations. We need to stand back and look at what the joint committee is trying to do. As the Chairman said, we are trying to figure out how to develop the horse industry from top to bottom, while also dealing with what we know is a major issue, namely, that of the urban horse, stray horses, etc.

We should start at the beginning. In life very few things happen without money. A suggestion made to me some time ago which I think is common knowledge was that betting tax could be increased. While the likelihood of getting more Exchequer funding is relatively slight, betting tax might be put back up. A figure of 3% has been mentioned, but we need not become fixated on the figure. We would then have a funding stream which we could use not just for one type of horse but also to resolve issues concerning all horses. Although the horse industry is massive and has massive potential, we have, unfortunately, slipped in recent years owing to changes in European income tax rules, stallion coverings and so on. We live in a very competitive world.

My question to the thoroughbred society is this. Let us suppose there was money available to do it. How would it develop the thoroughbred industry to make it more profitable and competitive worldwide? How would it create more employment? Would extra funding make any difference in that regard or is that not the issue? I ask the same question of the national hunt, special breed, sport horse industry, etc. We are going through every sector, from racehorses down. At times, investing in the horse industry may be more beneficial than investing in multinationals, although I am not setting one against the other. Are there things we could do a lot better to get better economic returns were we to make the required investment and if we had a steady stream of money?

It would be crazy for us not to deal with a problem that causes huge reputational damage and which is also going to take money to solve. Can Mr. McGrath tell me if we have any idea of how many urban horses belong to members of the Traveller community? I remember talking on the telephone to a Galway City Council manager, while I had a Kilkenny man sitting beside me in the car. I said mischievously to the official that taking horses from Travellers was akin to taking hurleys from Kilkenny men. I know that Mr. McGrath is not from Kilkenny but from the neighbouring county of Tipperary and that it might hurt him that I still think Kilkenny is the premier hurling county. There is, however, no point in trying to solve this problem by confiscation after confiscation without dealing with the underlying issue that has been outlined. Members of the Traveller community have an affinity with horses and rather than try to solve the problem by sanctions, we should provide ways by which they could legally access horses in properly supervised conditions.

I have a question for the ISPCA, the Irish Horse Welfare Trust and the local authority managers. If there was a proper funding mechanism and not just a project in Fettercairn or Dunsink and if we were to set up well-managed and well-run horse projects in, or adjacent to, urban communities, which would retain access for these communities which have traditionally been associated with urban horses, do they think it would have a major effect in helping us to allow these communities to enjoy horses in a controlled and positive environment, to reduce criminality and to make it easier to go after the remaining illegal horses and remove them because there would be no support for them? Do we have any idea of the kind of funding that would be needed if we were to set up a string of these horse projects in urban communities? I was involved in trying to set one up in Tralee. There is one in Fettercairn and Finglas was mentioned. Would the groups see that as being a positive plan? In the long term, would it save the State money because we would not spend so much time impounding horses?

I was very interested to hear about the change in the statutory instrument. Certain things happen unbeknownst to us and I am shocked the statutory instrument was changed. The same conditions need to apply to horses that apply to cattle in terms of the animal identification and movement system, AIMS. The minute the animal moves, it should be on the computer and if it is not, the keeper is in trouble. I have always believed we should cut to the chase here and work towards a system in which there is absolute and immediate traceability of horses. People should not be able to say that they do not own the horse, or other such excuses. We need to get to a point where we really clamp down on illegal horses.

Is it the view of the welfare groups and the city managers that it is not possible to clamp down on illegal horses without a regime in place for urban horses and people living in urban areas, particularly for the Traveller community, which has a huge and legitimate affinity with horses, where that regime would be legitimate, legal, properly supervised and properly funded in terms of ongoing capital and current expenditure funding streams? Would they be of the view that it is not possible to have one without the other and that we cannot have a clampdown and enforcement of the law without the legitimate out? I would be interested to know if anybody has costed it so that we have that information when we are putting everything into the 3% imaginary tax we are going to get. As somebody who is not big into betting, I am all for that tax as long as it goes back into the industry and so on. It would be a good way of developing our industry. I am interested in the groups views on this matter. Would it be possible to get a rough costing sometime in the next few weeks, without gilding the lily? I often say if one asks for reasonable money, one might get it, but if one asks for ridiculous money, one will never get it.