Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 9 July 2015
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade
Business of Committee
2:00 pm
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The next item on the agenda is a motion on the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. Before calling Senator Daly to move the motion, I remind members that this matter was dealt with last week by the committee, at which it was noted by the clerk that in the opinion of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, this matter came within its remit and that it has agreed to hold meetings on it in the autumn with a cross section of interested groups. As Chairman, it is my view, and that of members who attended last week's meeting, that there is no point in this committee holding similar meetings to those proposed by the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. In fact, it would be a duplication of the work being done by both committees. Also, legacy and reconciliation issues form part of the 2015 work programme of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. Does Senator Daly wish to comment?
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I attended the meeting of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement yesterday, at which I spoke to other members about the correspondence received by that committee on the matter. I was not, unfortunately, in attendance at the committee when it dealt with correspondence matters. I retabled the motion for discussion at this meeting following on from the discussion at the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement yesterday on the letter sent by this committee requesting the holding of a joint meeting of both committees, which is what was agreed. It has subsequently transpired that there is to be no joint meeting with this committee, which is news to me and other members who attended the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, where it had been agreed.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps I could make a suggestion. The Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement is to meet next week.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I suggest to the Senator that he attend that meeting and discuss with the secretariat what transpired at last week's meeting, following which he can come back to me on the matter. The reality may be that the committee does not want to hold a joint meeting with this committee.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I was at the meeting when it was agreed to hold a joint meeting of the two committees.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I have received a letter from the clerk to the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, who is a person I respect very much. That letter states that as the issues are predominantly the responsibility of that committee, in its view a joint meeting of both committees is not necessary at this juncture but that members of this committee are welcome to attend future meetings of that committee at which these issues are being discussed.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am just saying I was at the meeting.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I spoke to the clerk.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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When she said there were briefing notes for the Chairman, I said I was there and he did not read them out. His failure to read them out meant everyone was saying it was a joint meeting.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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That is what we were agreeing. Otherwise, I would have objected.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I suggest that the Senator should go to next week's meeting of that committee.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I will go back through the minutes.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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He can come back to me afterwards.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Is that all right?
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but I cannot see why they-----
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I take it that the Senator does not want to press-----
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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-----would not agree to a joint meeting with this committee.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It is their work programme.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I know that, but that is not-----
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It is as if the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs started doing work on Irish aid.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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If they wanted to do something on a joint basis-----
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I do not think we would be very happy about that in this committee. We would see it as part of our work programme. I assume the Senator is not pressing the motion at the moment.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. We will move on to the next motion in the name of Senator Daly, which relates to the proposed demolition and transfer of Susiya in the Israeli settlement of the West Bank. I invite the Senator to speak in support of this motion.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I move:
That the Foreign Affairs Committee condemns the proposed demolition and transfer of the inhabitants of the Bedouin village of Susiya in the Israeli settlement of the West Bank. Forcible transfer of the protected population is prohibited according to Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and is considered to be a grave breach of international humanitarian law according to Article 147 of the Convention. We instruct the Minister to contact the Government of Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Minister of Defense Moshe Ya’alon, Military Advocate General Danny Efroni, Israeli Military Judge Advocate General Avichai Mandelblit, and Israeli Military Chief of Staff Gadi Eizenkot to express Ireland’s condemnation of the proposal to demolish the village of Susiya and expel its residents.
Many of us have received correspondence on this issue, which epitomises the situation in the West Bank and the occupied territories, especially in relation to a community like the Bedouin community. Permits are impossible to come by. We all know the situation with regard to the settlements we have opposed. I know the Minister of State, Deputy Dara Murphy, has taken a question on this matter in the Seanad and the Minister spoke about it yesterday. Ireland as a country has raised its objections to settlements and the activities of the Israeli Government in the West Bank. The future of this village is a particular case that we have been asked to highlight. I do not think it is much to ask of the Minister. We have done so in other cases. If the Israeli Government has its way, the village in question will not exist this time next year. I can only imagine the reply we are going to get. I have read a reply that refers to not intervening in specific cases. This affects future actions. If Ireland says it is going to raise the matter in a general sense, I do not think that is strong enough. This is continuing to happen to a particular community. We have received replies from the Israeli Embassy on this matter. We have also received counter-replies. It is very simple - we have been asked to highlight this issue, which affects a particular village. I think we should support that cause because this is a manifestation of national policy on Israel and Palestine.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Before I bring in the other members of the committee, I remind them that a briefing note from the Department on this matter has been circulated to them. It appears from the note that the Minister has already made known his view and that of Ireland on this matter, which is that this is a breach of international law. The Minister has acknowledged that view, which has been brought to the attention of the Israeli ambassador, the European Union and the United Nations. The Minister also brought it to the attention of the Israeli Minister for Foreign Affairs during his visit to Israel earlier this year. Members will recall that the Minister restated this view at yesterday's meeting of the joint committee. Does anybody else want to speak on this motion?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I think these matters are best left to the appropriate section to deal with in the normal manner. The original motion, parts of which have been disallowed, referred to issues that are not pertinent to the function of any committee. Some of the things that were being suggested are not possible. We do not direct Ministers in this committee because we do not have the power to do so. I suggest that we reiterate what we can do. For that reason, I am proposing an amendment to delete all the words in Senator Daly's motion after "Article 147 of the Convention" and include in their place "and the Joint Committee calls on the Minister to convey Ireland’s concerns to the Israeli authorities". That is the normal procedure to be followed in a situation like this. If we do otherwise at this stage, we will reduce the level of debate. In that context, I would like to make a point about something I have noticed in the House in general. The level of debate and the manner in which we make our case can have a huge bearing on the manner in which what we say is greeted by the intended recipients. If we decide to lower the tone of debate in the Houses or the committees, the subject matter is diminished considerably by virtue of that. I strongly urge us all to recognise that in future when we are making our case to a Minister, an ambassador or whoever it may well be. I accept that there was no intention to offend anybody, but the original motion I saw was certainly offensive and argumentative and was ruled out of order for those reasons.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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What was offensive about the motion?
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator to let Deputy Durkan finish. I will let him in again.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The point-----
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy saw something offensive in asking the Minister to do something-----
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Senator to respect the Chair.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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-----I would like him to outline what that was.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I will let the Senator back in.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is it all right to speak?
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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He said he was offended.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I will let the Senator address that when he speaks again.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe I should apologise to him for offending him.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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As I was saying, this is a typical example of the way we do our business. I believe we have to follow certain procedures, decorum and protocols. If we depart from that, we diminish the strength of our case and our cause. When we are working within the committee, within the Houses of the Oireachtas or in our discussions with other entities such as embassies or ambassadors, we should make our submissions in line with the normal procedures that apply in such cases. To do otherwise is to reduce the debate to a level that I will not offend anybody by describing.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There is a particular word that comes to mind, but I do not wish to go there. I would like to propose an amendment to the motion before the committee.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Deputy to move the amendment formally. I understand he is happy with the first part of the motion, which reads:
That the Foreign Affairs Committee condemns the proposed demolition and transfer of the inhabitants of the Bedouin village of Susiya in the Israeli settlement of the West Bank. Forcible transfer of the protected population is prohibited according to Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and is considered to be a grave breach of international humanitarian law according to Article 147 of the Convention.
I will bring in Senator Daly and anyone else who wants to come in on the amendment after it has been moved.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 1:
To delete all the words after "Convention" and substitute the following:"and the Joint Committee calls on the Minister to convey Ireland’s concerns to the Israeli authorities".
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Deputy to pass a note setting out the content of the amendment to us.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Can I second that?
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does anybody else want to come in here?
Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I do not have a difficulty with the amendment, but obviously there is a huge difference of opinion in the correspondence we have received, including from a number of citizens. We have received correspondence from the Israeli ambassador which refutes completely the arguments in the correspondence we have received. Do we need to get an unbiased or independent view or opinion?
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is something we can put on the work programme. Maybe we can bring in some experts in the autumn schedule.
Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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The real situation is somewhere in between.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Okay. We can do that.
Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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Obviously, the Israeli ambassador is completely refuting the arguments that are in the correspondence we have received.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Okay. I will invite the two ambassadors - the Palestinian representative ambassador in Ireland and the new Israeli ambassador who will be sent to Ireland - to come before the committee in September.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Can I clarify that if Deputy Durkan's amendment is accepted, the first paragraph of my motion will remain and we will additionally call on the Minister "to convey Ireland’s concerns to the Israeli authorities"?
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Would Senator Daly be happy with that?
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, if the first paragraph remains.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator want to leave it as correspondence or agree the motion as amended?
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We will agree the motion.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The first paragraph of it remains, and then we are calling on the Minister-----
Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I have a concern. If there is a major injustice here, I would like us to exert as much pressure and force as we can. Given that we have two totally opposing views and opinions in this case, I think it would be appropriate to have both ambassadors in to try to tease this out.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I hope the village is there by then.
Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I would have a concern about that as well.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Senator Mullins and thank him for asking for the two parties to be brought in to discuss this case, which is a crystallisation of events that are happening all the time. I think it would be helpful if we were to bring them in on this issue.
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I propose that we send the motion to both the Israeli and Palestinian embassies, noting that it was discussed. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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For the benefit of members, I do not table motions to cause an argument. If members have amendments and are willing to discuss them with me, I will be pleased to accept them. I chose a specific form of words but I have no problem accepting sensible amendments, and in that connection the amendment proposed by Deputy Durkan was helpful.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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While I understand the need to adhere to protocols and show decorum, that approach has not worked in this case. In 1993, there were 250,000 illegal Israeli settlers in Palestine. Today, that figure has increased to 600,000. Clearly, a different approach is required. Will the Chairman confirm that the amendment will result only in the word "instruct" being replaced with the words "calls on"?
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Middle East peace process is part of the joint committee's work programme and an issue on which we work at all times. In that regard, I commend Deputy Colreavy's party colleague, Deputy Seán Crowe, on the work he does on the issue.
Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Crowe apologises for being unable to attend today.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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While I accept the points made by Deputy Colreavy, it is my view that decorum will always win provided everyone shows it. It is when we resort to other means that we must ask ourselves whether they always succeed.
Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The evidence from various empires suggests otherwise.