Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We have a good deal of business to do today. We do not have any apologies so we will move on to the draft minutes of the meeting of 1 July 2015. They have been circulated. Are the minutes of the meeting agreed?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I have some issues with regard to the minutes, Chairman. A letter came back from the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement relating to the proposed joint meeting between the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade. I attended the meeting of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. There seems to be some confusion on the matter. Members were present and it was never said that it would not be a joint meeting. It was understood there would be a joint meeting. We had a long discussion on who would be invited and agreed that we would all circulate it. I have asked for the tapes, but there are no tapes. I have also asked for detailed minutes, but there are no detailed minutes. The request went from here to the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement to the effect that there would be a joint meeting. That was my understanding, and I was at the meeting. That is what was understood. I realise it will not be held until September. Anyway, it needs to be put forward again that there should be a joint meeting.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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You are saying you looked for information with regard to the minutes and tapes. Is that correct?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I have been told there are no detailed minutes.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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There have to be notes or a report taken by the clerk.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There is nothing. I was at the meeting.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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There may be internal recordings that you could listen to.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There is nothing. I have checked all of that.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Will you let the secretariat check that for you as well, please?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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No. I have understood it. You can confirm it now because I spoke to the clerk of the other committee. There are no accurate or detailed minutes. The Chairman of that committee had briefing notes which he did not read out. I was at the meeting. The notes said there would only be a meeting of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. If they had been read out I would have objected, and I imagine I would have got the support of members from our committee to the effect that there should be a joint meeting. Can this be put back to the other committee again? I know there is a motion down to the effect that it should be a joint meeting because of the issues involved.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to dwell on this now but I will look for clarification and air your concerns to see whether we can get clarification on the matter.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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No. I got the clarification.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Sorry. I will look for it and the secretariat will look for it as well. It is your word against the word of the secretariat.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is not my word. I asked other members of the committee.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Other people were at the meeting, including the clerk. Can we simply get clarification first? Perhaps the other committee could inform us whether-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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In that case, mention it to-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Will you agree to clarification next week?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I will discuss it under the motions.

There is another matter on the minutes. It relates to the presentation last week by Amnesty International. Unfortunately, I understand that those involved misled members of the committee in a briefing they gave to us about the possibility of Mr. Ibrahim Halawa being released under the criminal code 143 on 17 August. Presidential decree 83/2013 from September 2013 effectively means that he can be held indefinitely. Chairman, will you write to Amnesty International to ask the organisation for clarification on the matter? Obviously, it is very important that members of the committee get the correct information.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Will you send me a note on the matter and we will follow up on it?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The record needs to be set straight.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Will you send me a written note on it? Then I will follow up on it.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Another matter relates to the presentation to the committee. I believe everything that needs to be said should be said in the committee room. It is not appropriate for anyone who presents before the committee to start arguing with a member of the committee outside in the hallway.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is not a matter for the committee.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is a matter for the committee.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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No, it is not a matter for the committee. That is your problem. It is not a problem for the committee.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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No, it is not my problem. If people are invited to make a presentation to this House they should make the presentation on the record in the House. They should not challenge members afterwards, especially when they are talking to-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Senator, that is a matter between yourself and someone else.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Chairman. Anyone who comes before this committee should talk in front of the committee on the public record. They should not go into the hallways and start interrupting me while I am having a discussion with Ibrahim's family. I do not think that is appropriate. A message needs to go out to the effect that any member of the committee who asks questions of a witness is entitled to ask questions. Witnesses are entitled to answer them. If they have issues with that, they should bring up the matter here or write to the committee subsequently, but they should not go around this House interrupting me, or any Member, for that matter, while I am having a conversation.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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There is nothing we can do. That is outside our control. What they do outside the House and when they are not in the committee room before the committee-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Chairman. I am asking you to write to Amnesty International and point out that anything its representatives have to say should be said in this room.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I suggest you do that yourself rather than asking the committee to do it.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Chairman, it is not acceptable that witnesses come before committees and, instead of saying what they have to say to us in this committee room - many people challenged them over things they had to say about politicians - they decide to step outside the room and then give their opinions. They should give their opinions in here.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I cannot comment on that, Senator.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am not asking not asking you to comment.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I cannot comment on it. I cannot write to someone when I do not know what happened. It did not happen within the committee.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It happened inside Leinster House and it is inappropriate.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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There is nothing I can do about it.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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If you want to make a complaint, send it in writing. I am not going to write on someone's word. I cannot do that. What happens outside the House-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is not outside the House. It is inside a committee room.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It was outside the committee room.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is inappropriate. Chairman, can you imagine if witnesses decided not to say anything in this room and then decided to start remonstrating with members?

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I have no control over what people say outside the committee room.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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They must say it in here.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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If you have a complaint to make, send it to me in writing and we will deal with it.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Will you be writing to Amnesty International in respect of the information its representatives gave about criminal code 143 in order that they can correct the information?

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I have asked you to put it to me in writing and we will look at it then. Is that okay?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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All right.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Unless there are matters arising from the minutes, we will proceed with the main business of the meeting. The Minister is waiting, so we will invite in him and his officials.