Mr. Greg Mulholland:

The Deputy has made a number of interesting and important points. I will be watching with interest to see what happens here with regard to below-cost selling. The debate on that is still raging, including within the sector. There are people within the so-called industry who are absolutely opposed to a prohibition on below-cost selling because potentially they could benefit from sales. Some producers are less opposed to it because they object to supermarkets being able to sell their products at a price that they consider to be too low. There is generally strong support for a ban from licensees. The problem in this regard lies in how one picks the minimum price. For that reason, I hope we will work towards a genuine definition of what it means to sell below cost. I think the costs of production and distribution should be taken into account, as should taxation. I believe that would help us to stamp out the very low-price sale of alcohol in supermarkets without necessarily picking an arbitrary figure.

Doctors would like it to be pitched at a very high level because they believe that would put people off drinking or they would drink less. Not only does that not necessarily help some problem drinkers, even though it might reduce consumption, there is a danger that it could damage pubs if it is too high a figure.

I share the point on the VAT rebate. It is a scandal and needs to be highlighted more. In terms of craft beer, it was very interesting to hear that Ireland is going down the route of doing something similar to what we call the progressive beer duty for smaller producers. I am interested in seeing what impact that has because there is a global move towards locally produced craft beers. No one will threaten the dominance of Guinness in Ireland but people want choice, and there is no reason there cannot be a range of different types of beer. That is to be encouraged.

The issue of food is interesting because food is much more important to many pubs than it used to be, in particular rural pubs in the UK which serve Sunday lunches and other meals. That is to be welcomed and I am not aware that there is a shortage of chefs, but there is a crisis in curry houses in the UK because of changes to the immigration rules which mean we may not have enough qualified chefs for our curry houses. If one goes to a pub in the UK that does not do food, one might go from the pub to a curry house.

Deputy Lawlor referred to visiting York, which is a fascinating example of what is happening. It is a very popular tourist destination. Pubs are opening there in locations which were not formerly pubs, and the same is happening in Leeds and a number of other places. There are various reasons for that. A Leeds brewery opened a new pub in York in recent years. People often find they cannot get their hands on pubs owned by large companies, even if they are not doing particularly well, and often buy a shop which they convert into a pub. That is strange, at a time when other pubs are closing.

There has been a large increase in micro pubs for that reason. If one buys a shop, one pays significantly less in rates because of the size of the building. One can have a fairly small bar, which is often more akin to a traditional Irish bar, with a counter and a limited offering that does not include food. Such pubs are very successful. In the UK debate is shifting. It is not true to say that a pub cannot do well unless it serves food. Certain pubs are reliant on food, but it is exciting that there are now many smaller pubs which do not serve food and do better for not doing so because they specialise in beer and people go to them for that reason. There needs to be a balance and that depends on a particular pub.

On the question of pub closures, it is about giving a community the opportunity to seek to save a pub. That means finding someone else to run it or running it themselves. In Ireland the challenge, because of pubs being freehold, is that if a family decides they no longer wish to run a pub and want to turn it into a house that can be more problematic than a distant pub company which people may not like or know deciding to close a pub against the will of the community. That is why the assets community value initiative is interesting. It gives a community the right, not necessarily to buy a pub, but to have a say and to seek to put a community bid together.

It is a very complex sector in the UK and there are many positive stories. I mentioned a brewery in Leeds. Many such small breweries are taking on pubs, and are actively seeking to do so because they are doing very well. They are often prevented from doing so because of the ludicrous amounts property owning companies seek to sell them for, and that is why they are often sold to Tesco, Sainsbury's or the Co-op.

There are people, certainly in the UK, who are prepared to take on pubs that other companies have deemed non-viable. All we are arguing for is that the process be seen through: if someone wants to take on a pub and can barter a fair and market price they should be allowed to do so. That is something we are pushing for. With those rural pubs, there is a need for some provision in the planning laws to prevent it from closing if it is the only pub in the village. That is an issue that would have to be worked through within the realities of Irish planning law, an area in which I am not expert. The pub is a hub initiative. It should be possible to get more services into a pub - to combine it with a shop, a post office and so on - and to work together with other businesses and get support, mainly from local councils, with some government-backed schemes. We need to ensure these pubs do not close in the first place because they are so important for the wider economy in rural areas.