Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Olivia Mitchell, Deputy Seán Crowe, Deputy Dan Neville and Senator David Norris. Draft minutes of the meeting of 17 June 2015 have been circulated to members. Are the minutes of that meeting agreed?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The committee has received correspondence from the family of Ibrahim Halawa. Amnesty International is returning to the committee to talk about its annual report and also the discrepancies between what we have been told by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and information that the Halawa family have given us regarding the torture of Ibrahim and the lack of medical treatment and assistance that he has received, and also conditions in the prison. I know that the Chairman has asked the Egyptian authorities if the committee can visit him. Is there an update on that? It is concerning that a Canadian national has been released having been put on trial and then not found guilty.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to have a discussion because we have it on correspondence.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I would ask the Chairman to get a brief on the fact that the Canadian national has been released on bail. He has been released on bail terms that he must remain in Egypt. He is still in Egypt. He cannot get a passport.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to have an in-depth discussion on it. We have a correspondence and it can go in there.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We were told that Ibrahim could not be released.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We are speaking about the minutes now. We are not having a discussion.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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The minutes were agreed but it was also agreed that we would get on to the Egyptians. Have they come back to us?

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Yes. No, well-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There is another item on the minutes about Justice for the Forgotten and Relatives for Justice and whether or not we will have a joint meeting with the Good Friday Agreement committee. The Kingsmill massacre was brought up in the Dáil yesterday and I congratulated the Taoiseach, who was over in London, on releasing the files and information that we have on it. We still want the British Prime Minister to hand over files on the Dublin-Monaghan bombings. We do not seem to be any nearer to getting to the truth of that issue and we do not know whether we will get the files at all, despite resolutions from all parties.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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There are two issues there, Senator Daly. I do not want to have an in-depth discussion at this stage because it is in the correspondence. On the Halawa case, as Senator Daly knows, we have had no updates since last week. We have been on to the Department and we have met the Egyptian ambassador about this request which was put forward by this committee. We have had no correspondence since but we will follow up on it before the next meeting. Is that okay?

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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On the question of Relatives for Justice, I understand that the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement is meeting tomorrow and will discuss it then. It is the main committee for this. We hope to have something back tomorrow. As requested, this committee has expressed an interest in this so we will discuss it with the members of that committee tomorrow after they have discussed it at their meeting.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I have always agreed that we would work jointly with them on this but I contest the statement that it is the main committee. It is not. This is an issue between the Irish and British Governments so it is a matter primarily-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Strictly speaking-----

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, excuse me-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I will let you speak.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It is a matter primarily, in my opinion, for the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Tradeand I concur with my colleague Senator Daly - it is a scandal. I compliment the fact that we have dealt with the Kingsmill documents but it is a disgrace that the British have hidden documents. This means that they are still participating in collusion. If they continue to deny documentation and conceal evidence with regard to atrocities and terrorism - and this was state terrorism by the British - they are a participant and are as guilty of collusion as those who participated in the actual bombings. I think we should be unequivocal about this. There is a unanimous decision of Dáil Éireann with regard to this issue, which has been ignored by the British now for some ten years. It is totally unacceptable.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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No one doubts the Senator's sentiments, but we had agreed that we would let the members of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement discuss this first and we would talk to them about it. They are meeting tomorrow. The two clerks will meet and we will discuss it then. Does Deputy Byrne have something to add?

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I do not, no.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thought Deputy Byrne said he had something to add.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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No.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It should be an agenda item for our next meeting so we do not have to take it up on the minutes. In the meantime, when the clerk finds out tomorrow, we will all get an e-mail.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We will put it on the correspondence next week so that it is on the correspondence because we will have a reply updated on that.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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If I could just finish - in the meantime, when the clerk is informed of the decision of the Good Friday Agreement committee tomorrow that it is conveyed to us tomorrow as soon as the clerk is aware of it.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is no problem. We need to be careful because there are two committees and we do not want to overlap or to go down the same road as they are going down on the same issue. That is all I am saying to Senator Walsh. We will have written correspondence from the clerk tomorrow.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The murder of 34 Irish citizens-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to go into this subject now. We are discussing-----

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The murder of 34 Irish citizens------

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We are not discussing that subject today.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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-----with the collusion of the British establishment is unacceptable and is much more important-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Senator has said that before.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It is much more important-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We are not having a discussion on it now. We are discussing the minutes.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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-----than the niceties of what operates between two committees. Let us put our citizens first for a change-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We are putting our citizens first.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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-----rather than politicians’ egos on committees.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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Is it planned that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and this committee would meet jointly to discuss this issue?

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We have to examine the remit of that committee and what it discusses. If that happens it happens but if it is not anxious that we get into the issue and it wants to discuss it the Senator can attend a meeting of that committee. I will not rule anything out until we see what happens at its meeting tomorrow.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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It is an ongoing issue.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We will discuss it under correspondence again next week.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I will put this as a proposal if my simple request is not accepted, that it be an agenda item for next week.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is up to the Senator if he wants to put it down as an item next week.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I am proposing that now.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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There will be correspondence from that committee.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I propose formally that this be an agenda item for next week and I intend to press it. It is a reasonable request and I will press it to a vote in the event of its not being accepted.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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This refers to the work in which another committee is engaged. While this committee has some common ground with that committee it does not have the right to dictate to that committee the matters it should discuss or we should discuss. With due respect to the speakers, I suggest that we wait to see what the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement has to say and what its intention is in this matter. It would be entirely without precedent to overreach the work of another committee, regardless of whether we have common ground. That is a standing practice in the House.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is all I am asking Senator Walsh to do, wait and see what happens at that committee’s meeting tomorrow. We do not want to be at loggerheads with that committee on this issue. I have no problem putting it down for discussion next week but I ask the Senator to wait and see what happens tomorrow. That is what we had agreed and it is not meeting until tomorrow.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept that. The written request was to this committee. It is an international matter between two sovereign governments. We referred it to the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement so that it would not feel we had ignored its remit. Primarily it is a function of this committee. We referred it on the basis that we would meet jointly with that committee if that was its wish and if not that we would meet on it ourselves. I am looking for it to be on the agenda next week so that we do not have a debate like this under the minutes heading next week. It is more important than that. I ask that we have that issue on the agenda next week.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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There is no problem putting it on the agenda but out of courtesy we need to talk to our friends on the other committee, study its remit and see what it is doing. We get requests all the time from people who want to meet us but as Deputy Durkan said, they might not be matters for our committee, for example the Transatlantic Trade Investment Partnership, TTIP, which is a matter for the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. We have to distinguish what each committee does.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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This is primarily our committee.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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If the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement wants to debate this jointly we will see about that and I will respond to the Senator next week. We will put it on the agenda. There is no problem with that.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Collusion has nothing to do with the Good Friday Agreement. Collusion occurred during the 1970s and 1980s with the British heavily involved with Loyalist paramilitaries in particular.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It all has to do with Northern Ireland. It is not a matter of bilateral relations between Ireland and Britain.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement deals with the Good Friday Agreement.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We need to be careful about that. We will discuss it next week after the other committee has met tomorrow.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Will it be on the agenda?

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Yes, it will be on the agenda.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I accept that, thank you.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Dáil and Seanad motions have been passed about the release of the files on the Dublin-Monaghan bombings. It might be appropriate to have a joint meeting with the other committee with those who have made programmes on RTE and for "Panorama" and others.

When the Chairman and the clerk meet the Chairman and clerk of the other committee they might consider that the two committees go to the appropriate committee in Westminster to raise our concerns and demand the release of those files. We have passed motions but have heard nothing but platitudes from the British Government. It is time that the Members of Parliament, MPs, heard about their government’s involvement with the files.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It is going to be on the agenda next week. We will discuss it then. It is an important subject and nobody is dismissing it but we need the appropriate forum to deal with it and see what is the remit of each committee.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I would ask-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am leaving the matter.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to have this debate with the Chairman next week. In the meantime-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It is on the agenda for next week.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I know that. It is an international issue between Ireland and Britain. I could argue the case, but will not, that it has nothing to do with the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. I will be very happy if we deal with it together but I will not be happy if this committee is not involved.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We will deal with it next week. Is that agreed? Agreed. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. Unless there are other matters arising we will proceed with the main business of the meeting.