John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Turning to the usual housekeeping, let us ensure that all mobile telephones are switched off. I am Deputy John O'Mahony, Chairman of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications. My colleague, Deputy David Stanton, chairs the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality. The purpose of this afternoon's continued meeting is to engage with the Donegal-based driver rehabilitation programme that is run by Pro-Social Ireland. We are sitting jointly in accordance with Dáil Standing Order 84 and Seanad Standing Order 72. This is a rare occasion and is the first joint sitting in which I have been involved. We are making history for the transport committee, although I am unsure as to the justice committee.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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From the justice committee, I apologise on behalf of Deputy Anne Ferris and Senator Bacik, who cannot attend. Others may drop in, but the Dáil is in session and some members are there.

On behalf of members of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, I am happy that this joint sitting is occurring. This is our second joint sitting during this Dáil. The first was this morning. It is especially strange to have two on one day, but there we go.

We look forward to listening to what the witnesses have to say and engaging with them on the issues that they bring to our attention. As the Co-Chairman stated, the purpose of this meeting is to discuss with the witnesses their driver rehabilitation programme, which we are interested in from a justice point of view. We have done a great deal of work on rehabilitation, penal reform and so on, as the witnesses may be aware. All parties and none on the justice committee are agreed that any alternative to criminal sanction should be explored and used to the maximum. This was the thrust of a report on penal reform that we issued a while ago. We also considered community courts and other such initiatives with a view to keeping people out of the criminal justice system, including prison. Any initiative like the one being discussed today is most welcome. We look forward to what the witnesses have to say, particularly about the impact on recidivism and how effective their approach has been.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of both committees, I welcome Mr. Gary Doggett, Mr. Mick Quinlivan, Mr. Paul McCusker and Mr. Martin McFadden of Pro-Social Ireland. I draw their attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Any document or opening statement that they have submitted to the committee will be published on the committee's website after the meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Doggett to make his opening statement.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

Good afternoon. I thank members for inviting us to this meeting to discuss our project. My name is Gary Doggett and I am the co-ordinator of the Pro-Social drivers programme. With me today is our chairman, Mr. Mick Quinlivan, a retired garda with 31 years of experience who is currently working in the community and voluntary sector, specifically mental health, disability and youth. Our treasurer, Mr. Paul McCusker, is a lecturer in business studies and community development. He is also the treasurer of the Donegal Youth Service and Youth Work Ireland at national level. Our lead facilitator is Mr. Martin McFadden, who is sitting at the end. He is an integrative counsellor and a founder of the Friends of Bill W Club in Donegal, which is a support centre for the recovery community. He is highly regarded within mental health and addiction services and works on a daily basis with challenging clients who present with behavioural issues. He is also a trained facilitator and trainer. My field is adult education. I have an honours BA in community development and have written a thesis on strategies to reduce reoffending.

The aim of the Pro-Social drivers programme is to reduce the number of deaths on our roads. We also want to reduce road traffic reoffending and to avoid an escalation of offences that lead to criminal records. The year 2012 saw the first year-on-year increase in fatalities on our roads since 2005. These numbers represent human lives and devastation to families. From the justice perspective, there were more than 24,000 convictions for road traffic offences in 2012. These are members of our community. We are trying to reduce the number of perpetrators and victims of road traffic offences.

Donegal has a recent and tragic history in terms of road safety. It was against this backdrop that, in 2012, our organisation was approached by representatives of the criminal justice system in Letterkenny with a view to putting together a driver rehabilitation programme to try to reduce the high incidence of anti-social driving behaviour in the county. All of the research that we have seen to date as well as our personal experiences have shown that it is generally personal factors rather than technical skill that are the main cause of risky or careless driving behaviour. With this in mind, we put together a course that took into consideration four factors that we believed would be the most conducive to safe driving. These are emotional control, social responsibility, driving under the influence and the consequences of anti-social driving behaviour.

Our clients are generally referred to us by judges, the Probation Service or solicitors.

This is a key strength of the programme in that it is an indication of the integrity of the work we are doing and of the trust placed in us by professionals in this area.

We meet our clients on a one-to-one basis to discuss what they need to do to complete the programme. They then attend three-hour modules delivered over a four-week period. After the initial induction is a module on emotional control which addresses the way that we respond to certain situations while behind the wheel. The next module is on social responsibility which looks at the responsibility we all have as members of our communities. This is followed by a module on driving under the influence. This module is very important as we find that many of the younger people with whom we deal have poor skills in peer refusal. We try to give people the skills whereby they can learn to say "No" to their friends and encourage their friends to drive in a safer manner. The last module is on the consequences of anti-social driving behaviour. Since the outset, our thoughts have been mainly with road traffic victims. With this in mind, we have always wanted to create a space in which victims can voice their own pain and explain what they have been through. Generally, we invite someone who has lost a loved one, someone who has been in a bad collision or a representative of the emergency services to give a talk on the last module.

To date, we have run 12 courses which have been successfully completed by 110 people. So far, we are informed that only one person has reappeared before the courts. It is our understanding that probation-led reports have shown that the recidivism rate for road traffic offences is in the region of 28% within two years. The majority of those offences occur within the first year. International research has shown that driver rehabilitation programmes can reduce reoffending by up to 50%. I will now pass the joint committee to our treasurer, Mr. Paul McCusker, who will set out our strategy for moving forward.

Mr. Paul McCusker:

We have been an organisation for approximately three years and are looking to harness the success of the programme to date. We are looking to mainstream it. The key strengths of the programme are as follows. We have a relationship with the Judiciary and statutory bodies, including the Garda and ambulance service, which is very positive. We are seeking to offer them two things; in particular the Judiciary. Those are certainty and consistency. It is not enough for a judge to think a course is going to run, he or she must know it will. Currently, we run courses on demand and have run three so far this year on a voluntary basis. We would like to offer certainty. We would also like to roll the programme out on the basis of certainty. Second, as a community group, our board is voluntary. We have councillors and representatives from the business community. We are very sensitive to the needs of all members of the community. That is one of our key things. Within the group itself, it is very much person-led and person-centred and that requires resources. It will require investment. Our hope from today is that the joint committee will make positive representations to the Department to enable us to grow the programme. This morning, we have had a huge amount of interest from other counties about coming down to develop programmes. We have been asked to come down and talk to people. There is a need for a programme such as this. We do not see ourselves in competition with other activities but as a complement to them by bringing a different perspective to bear. On a more international stage, we have been approached from other countries including the Czech Republic, Estonia and Austria.

There is a great deal of learning going on in this area. By no means does anyone know all the answers. We can look at them together, however. In terms of the ongoing challenges, texting is becoming more and more of an issue. We will need strategies to address that. The RSA has some phenomenal advertisements which are scary on the distance a car can travel in 15 seconds while a person is texting. These are issues in respect of which we will have to adapt our programme. We are also getting invitations from groups outside the road traffic area to see if we can adapt our programme for their needs. We would like to invest time in doing that. The approach we have applied to road safety can also be applied to other areas, including public order offences and within schools to address cyberbullies. Those who are doing the cyberbullying need to be dealt with as well as the victims. We see those areas as ones we would like to explore in partnership with other groups. We have always adopted a partnership-based approach to developing this model. Mr. Doggett and Mr. McFadden in particular have worked very closely with other organisations. We are members of the road safety working group in Donegal and liaise with anybody who is in this area. We need and would like to get the resources and space to do that.

The programme has been very successful and the window of opportunity is there right now and should be taken advantage of. We have a loose plan to develop this. Phase 1 involves a pilot programme in seven counties. This is the proposal we put to the Minister, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, when we met him in Donegal two months ago. It is a geographic but also a rural thing. The seven counties are around Donegal as that is where we are based, but it would be moved down then and eventually come to Dublin in 2020. It will take five years to plan and come into an area with a working programme. Over the past five years, we have developed a way of working that is very much based on dialogue with the major stakeholders in the community. We liaise with the judges and gardaí and we do not prescribe. Everybody is involved and anybody who wants a say has one. Mr. McFadden will talk about how the programme runs, but it is very much a partnership-based approach. We have no statutory powers and we do not want any. It is in essence a group of people getting together in a room to discuss something which is of huge importance to everybody. We would like to take it from there. Outside of the numbers, the success of the programme is that all of those who have done the courses continue to speak very positively about what they learned quite a while later. That cannot be quantified.

Mr. Martin McFadden:

I thank the joint committee for having us down from Donegal today. It is lovely to get the opportunity to present to everybody. I will try not to duplicate anything my colleagues have said. My aim is to give a flavour of the content and delivery of the programme and what makes us different.

This is the first programme of its kind in the country, as I am sure the joint committee is aware. It is very much a cognitive behavioural approach. My own orientation as a counsellor is interpretative and I draw on different skills and tools to work with particularly difficult or resistant clients who present. The participants who come to us usually come through a solicitor or are referred by a judge. As such, they come with a certain amount of resistance and do not really want to be there at the start. We must, therefore, work with them. It is very important that we meet them individually first and find out a little about who they are, what they are coming with and what are their needs. Building that rapport and trust is very important. It is possibly the first time they have sat down with someone and had that kind of conversation. When we get to the delivery of the programme, week one is around emotional control and basic communication, which is very important. Driving is a highly complex social activity that has a language all of its own. A lot of the time when one talks to these kids, they are not aware of what they are doing and why. That is part and parcel of why we have been successful. We have dug underneath and gone to a different level to find out exactly why they are behaving the way they are; much of the time, they have not realised why themselves. As such, it is a classic cognitive behavioural approach. If we can change the thinking, we change the behaviour. That is very important.

We give value to the course when we start off. We always contract with the group to give value, safety and confidentiality to its members so they feel they can express themselves within that forum. That is very important as it is something they may not be used to. The programme is client and person-centred. It is a collaborative, shared learning experience.

Mr. Doggett will agree with me that we have also learned much from the participants coming through the programme. It is about maintaining balance also. We are working on a very serious issue. Road safety is highly sensitive, and we are very conscious of that, but it is also about getting the participants to engage and, to date, that has been superb. It is also about raising awareness and getting people to understand that they have a social responsibility in that there are other road users. It often goes deeper than just road safety. It goes across the board in terms of their own work or family environment.

We try to change that automatic thinking to more skilled thinking, and we have drawn from a number of people across Europe who have lent some of their programme to us. There is one from Canada, for example, which involved one of the men coming here to train with us for a week on reasoning and rehabilitation, based on a 30-year, evidence-based programme that works with young offenders and so on. We have drawn from many places and pieced all that together quite well.

In terms of the delivery, it is not a lecture as such, but we have group discussion, PowerPoint, some role play and case studies, so it is quite good.

On the aims, we try to get participants to think about self-control. Impulsiveness is a major aspect, particularly with young people, and it is what gets them in trouble in the first place. We try to temper that slightly or at least get them to become aware of it. It is about getting them to stop and think. It is about trying to get them to think about their thinking, to use more critical reasoning and to consider objectives and different decision making styles. This is all heavy stuff for young people, but all I can say is that my experience to date is that it works when it is done in a simple form.

Social and societal skills are very important. Some people can come in who might not necessarily have a set of skills. We have found that peer influence has been a huge issue also. We identified that early on and brought in part of the final module where we do some work on peer reviews and skills. It is about how one can say "No" and not lose face. That is very important for young people. We dig into the moral values and core beliefs as well, which is also very important. It is about raising awareness and getting that emotional management.

On the last day we bring in first responders from the ambulance service and someone who has been involved in a serious collision. We do a talk and then review what we have done over the previous month. What I have found, and this goes back to what I said at the outset, is that these guys come in every morning and they are quite resistant and closed, but as the programme wears on, they become open, involved and engaged, and they go off and tell their friends. It is by no means a get-out-of-jail card. They work for the certificate they get, and it is beholden on us to hold up the integrity of the programme to maintain that. To bring it forward, we ask the committee members to endorse the programme for us.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will hand over to members and to my colleague, Deputy David Stanton, in a moment. I thank the witnesses for the presentation. It is intriguing and a solution to an issue. Reducing fatalities and improving behaviour were the two main points. I want to ask some questions, following which I will open to floor to members, who I ask to stick to asking questions as much as possible, and I will try to lead by example. On the figures, reference was made to the fact that there was only one re-offender. Is that a definite figure? Did it come from the Garda?

Mr. Gary Doggett:

That comes from a recent article in the Irish Independent. The reporter spoke to Judge Kelly and I believe it was he who-----

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am wondering if it is an exact figure or anecdotal. Also, reference was made to the aim of rolling out the programme across the country. What cost are we talking about? I will put all my questions together. On the workings of the programme, is this a case in which a young person or whoever is in court and the judge recommends that they do this course? Might they do this course if they are in prison as a result of a road offence, or is it for people who do not have to serve a sentence?

Mr. Paul McCusker:

Over the two years of phase 1 we estimate the cost to be €200,000 for the seven counties. We do not know the exact figures but we would aim to have between 600 and 800 participants through courses in that time.

In terms of the way we work it, when we go into an area, we liaise with the judges and then work with the solicitors. We then work with the Garda in terms of familiarising members with what we are aiming to do and get their buy-in. We then talk to community groups, which is done mainly by Mr. Doggett, and then the course rolls out with referrals from the court system. Mr. McFadden and Mr. Doggett work on that together. We have worked on this in Donegal for the past three years. That is the roll-out. We go into jurisdictional areas and work with the judges to get referrals, and then roll out the course.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is €200,000 for the whole lot?

Mr. Paul McCusker:

For the whole lot.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

For the two years.

With regard to how the programme works, it is interesting that we recently had much more buy-in from the Probation Service. We have a serving member of the Probation Service on our board. She sat the course and was so impressed that she decided to join the board.

The programme started out mainly with referrals from Judge Kelly. The referrals would come on a person's first hearing. They then have to go back to the courts after they have completed the course. Early on we were very aware of the problem that some people may respond better than others while others might not respond well at all. We wanted to differentiate between people who worked hard for the course and those who were just in attendance because they had to do it. In consultation with the Trasna programme in Dublin, Mr. Paul Mooney kindly allowed us use its evaluation system. We use some of the categories they use, so we evaluate clients on their punctuality as a social skill. That is the number one requirement, because if they cannot turn up early or on time for the course, it is not a good sign. We also look at participation, because it is a peer learning environment, and we believe it is very important that everybody gets involved in the conversation. We understand that the group work theory and practice in the first course is very awkward for everybody, and we do not expect anybody to get involved the first time around, but we tease it out a little and give everybody an opportunity. These things are explained to everybody in that one-to-one meeting. We show them the marking sheet on which they are marked on their punctuality, their participation, their demeanour - it is clearly explained to them that they must come in with a positive attitude and not sit there texting or using their phones - and teamwork. Those are the four areas on which they are marked from 1 to 5. They are marked 1 if they arrive very late and 5 if they are camped outside the night before waiting for us to arrive. We do not expect that, but we want people to be aware that there is a system in place. We find this a great motivational tool as well because it helps us to keep things in order. We are very aware of the victims who have suffered loss through the actions of some of our clients. We do not want people to feel it is a get-out-of-jail-free card, a term we heard previously.

We want the wider community to be reassured that anybody doing our programme must earn their certificate. The other rules we have are all clearly explained at the outset. At the start, referrals mainly came from the judge. When people appeared in court for the first time, it was suggested that they do the programme. We would then evaluate the client and the results would be sent on to the judge and possibly to the solicitors, if requested. After that, the person would go to court. That is outside our remit. Our remit is to deliver a course and whatever happens on the basis of our evaluations has nothing to do with us. We have found recently that we are getting more and more referrals from solicitors, which was surprising. We gave a presentation to the Bar Association a year or two ago and we have had massive buy-in from solicitors, which has been great. Much more recently, we have found that we are getting more and more clients coming to us who are looking to get their licence back. This has been brilliant, because with the initial shock of losing one's licence, a person might be inclined not to behave in that way again, but two or three years down the line attitudes may have softened somewhat. It is a good time to get people to change their attitudes before they get behind the wheel of a car again.

We have never seen ourselves as a replacement for the current system. We consider ourselves to be a complementary asset. However, we understand the difficulties with the punitive system. If a person in Donegal is getting a ban for the same offence as someone in Dublin, it is a very different sentence, as there are no transport links in Donegal. That is what we are talking about as an escalation of offences. People may get behind the wheel again of necessity, although we do not condone that behaviour in any way.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the two Chairmen for facilitating a rare and very welcome joint meeting of committees. I will make a very brief commentary, because Deputy Pringle and I are Deputies for Donegal and all the public representatives in the county have huge admiration for the work of Pro-Social Drivers. I am from the Inishowen peninsula. As mayor of my home town of Buncrana, I had to comment on a road tragedy on television. I remember going through the figures on deaths. I came forward with a horrendous statistic: 25 young people under the age of 25 had been killed on the roads of Inishowen over 18 months. We went through a terrible period, so for us to come from that tragic history to having a story like this is remarkable. The Chairman was right to ask the question about re-offenders, because having just one is an incredible achievement.

I am mindful that the two Chairmen are representatives of rural communities, and Deputy Fleming, who has joined us, is also from a rural community. In rural communities, public transport is very patchy, so young people grow up with a culture of cars and having to drive. The objective of Pro-Social Drivers, practically speaking, because it is based in Donegal, is to engage with a number of rural counties and with working groups there. I would like to see this mainstreamed. I am a big admirer of what the witnesses are doing. Could they talk through taking an approach with all rural communities similar to Donegal first and then working their way down, hopefully, if we can get support from the Minister or whatever Department? Could they tell us how that would move forward?

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps we will hear Deputy Pringle first.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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I thank the joint Chairs for facilitating me. I am not a member of either committee, but it is important for me to come here today to support Pro-Social Drivers because is a very important programme. I had the pleasure at the end of one course of presenting certificates to participants in Letterkenny. It is clear from the presentation today that it is a very valuable programme. There are 24,000 convictions annually for road traffic offences, some of which are custodial sentences, and if we can help reduce those convictions, as well as re-offending, which is key, there is a substantial saving to be made. While the proposal for €200,000 to roll the programme out in seven counties over two years might seem like a lot of money, there will be a saving to the State, which is vital. Does Mr. Doggett or Mr. McFadden see their role, if this were rolled out nationally, as training people to deliver the course on a national basis? While there is an argument regarding rural counties in terms of difficulties around transport, I also see an important role for the programme in urban areas. The Chairman also asked whether it would be possible to deliver this within the prison system. The witnesses might address this, as it would be very important in terms of recidivism.

Mr. Martin McFadden:

I will take that question. I thank both Donegal Deputies, who have been very supportive of our programme, as have all Deputies across the county and across the board, which is fantastic. Our aim is to bring the programme around the country, and that we would be in a position to train the trainers. We are very mindful of our present location. It is local and quite insular and there would be challenges for us in bringing the programme to different parts of the country. There would be different localities, situations and environments, and we are very conscious of that. That is what Mr. McCusker would also have said. In our strategy for the next five years, we have taken all that into account. Certainly, to expand the programme, we would be looking to place facilitators in different parts of the country to work within their own areas.

Mr. Paul McCusker:

All members of the Pro-Social Drivers committee are also fairly senior members of other community organisations, and we have fairly significant networks in the youth sector, which would love this. The youth sector has tried restorative practice quite successfully. Our experience to date is that judges, gardaí and first responders are fully supportive in whatever capacity and would roll in behind us. This morning alone, Mr. Doggett's phone has been buzzing, as he is our media guru. People in the community will buy into it. They want to see every strategy used and every possible opportunity taken to stop the carnage. In the case that Deputy Mac Lochlainn mentioned, one of the five young people killed coming from a nightclub was buried in her graduation outfit. She had spent four years getting a degree and she was buried. All road accidents are so tragic and senseless and we must do anything we can to stop them, bar locking people up. Our aim is to stop them and to get young people and drivers to pause and reflect and give them a chance. It is making a difference and we hope that we will go up a level and it will make a wider difference.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

I might answer the question on the prison system. It is quite interesting. We have explored that area ourselves. In putting this course together, we are very conscious of following best practice. We do not want to go out on our own and be mavericks; we want to see what is going on in other countries. We have spoken with the Kuratorium für Verkehrssicherheit, the road safety board in Austria, which has been running driver rehabilitation programmes since 1978. I believe they have become mandatory since 1995.

The Czech Republic sent us a programme it uses within its prison system and we have had informal discussions about it. We have spoken to a person with whom we have good connections and that person has spoken with prison officers about the possibility of doing something similar.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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I welcome this initiative. I only have a synopsis, but who would be regarded as high-risk drivers? Are they people who have been in custody for offences? Should we rate the entire general public? Some people, myself included, would probably benefit from brushing up their knowledge of the rules of the road. If I had to face a driving test now I would probably not pass it under modern standards.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

That is a very interesting question and it is something about which we have thought in great depth. Because of the size of the county we have a generic course but there is space for lesser offences such as where somebody has transgressed the speed limit by a small amount. What we are doing is not particularly conducive to safe driving in the context of such matters. We are most productive in the areas of dangerous driving and careless driving. There is also driving under the influence of drugs or texting or using the telephone while driving, though it is hard to believe people would even consider doing something like that. It is fantastic how Ireland has changed over the years, even in areas such as smoking. We have changed our whole attitude around these matters and we have changed the way the public thinks about them. The same happened with seat belts, though that took a while. We need to educate our clients and the fact that they have come before the courts in the first place is an indication that there is a problem.

Mr. Mick Quinlivan:

I have 31 years' experience on the front line dealing with traffic, traffic accidents and road traffic offences. When one goes to the scene of an accident one's first concern is for people who are injured and we try to look after them. The culprit, the perpetrator, the person who is in the wrong in the accident, however, could be your brother, my brother or anybody's brother here. It could be somebody who has worked a double shift and fallen asleep on the way home. There are so many tragic stories. These people are not necessarily criminals. They are very unfortunate and should not really be treated as criminals. There are serial offenders who have to be dealt with, however, and I would not want to give any of them a get-out-of-jail-free card because I know what the consequences of this type of driving are, having seen it at first hand. We have to have a level-headed approach to this. It is not about revenge but about making everybody safer and better at driving.

Mr. Martin McFadden:

The programme is very adaptable and would work as a preventative measure or to brush up people's skills. At the moment the course is taken as a consequence of the participants' behaviour, so it is based on experiential learning. They have touched the wet paint, so it is real to them, whereas if one delivers a programme to a pupil in transition year they think it is never going to happen to them. The programme is good because we have people's engagement. They have to be there, but when they buy into it, as they have done, it is always a bonus.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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It is great to see that the delegates are bringing a sense of awareness to the issue and hopefully the roll-out will be done in a timely fashion. Have they thought about speed restrictors? Younger drivers are often prone to speeding and maybe speed restrictors would be desirable. They might also be desirable to insurance companies and it would be one way of getting cheaper insurance.

Mr. Mick Quinlivan:

There is a legislative issue.

Mr. Paul McCusker:

Attitude is also important. Technology only works if the person using the technology has the will to use it. Speed restrictors can work but the attitude of the driver and his or her demeanour while inside the car are what we work at. We do not have a driving programme and we do not teach technical driving skills as they are all very good drivers already. We focus on their behaviour from the word "Go."

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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Local authorities need to get involved with this, as they have the infrastructure. There should also be more emphasis from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport on getting rid of black spots. There is a need for soft landing ramps in certain places, and some counties have more than others. There is a particular need for them near schools and in built-up areas.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Do the witnesses talk to councils about the roads programme and alleviating problems in high-risk areas? Youngsters drive fast, but one can put a speed restrictor into a car as easily as into a lorry and it would restrict them whether they liked it or not. I have been an advocate of this but I do not know if the delegates have done anything about it. Is there an incentive for youngsters who do a course in terms of their insurance? Youngsters are being crucified with insurance and are a target for insurance companies. The prices they are being charged give them an incentive not to have insurance, and we have to something for them, as they just do not have €3,000 or €4,000. Some insurance companies provide a certificate for youngsters who have completed a certain amount of driving, which qualifies them for lower insurance costs.

A lot of good drivers are actually off the road in this country for one simple reason. They are elderly and never had a licence from the days when they did not need a licence, something which was the reality in rural parts of Ireland. They drive a truck, car or tractor better than a person with all the licences in the world but because they were nabbed on the road for not having a licence they were put off the road, even though they had been driving for 30 years. They cannot get a licence now because many of them did not have the luxury of going to school and they are afraid to go into a van to do the test. We are pushing people outside the law who are perfectly fit to drive. Do the witnesses agree?

Mr. Gary Doggett:

We were asked about our input relating to roads. We are members of the Donegal road safety working group and that is the only input we have. We can offer our opinion on such matters, along with the rest of the committee. Speed restrictors are not necessarily our area, as we do not only deal with speeding offences. We deal with myriad offences not necessarily related to speed. The point about insurance companies was interesting. We have worked on this for three years now and we have explored many different options to continue our work, but it is a struggle to get the supports we need.

We have been working for three years now. It is a struggle to get the supports we need. We have explored the idea of insurance companies reducing premiums for those who have done the course. We thought that if the companies bought into that idea, it might be a good way of getting support. We might explore that possibility again in the future. Unfortunately, I do not think what was said about the elderly is really relevant to the work we are doing. I hope I have answered the questions.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mac Lochlainn wants to ask a brief supplementary question.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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I thank the Chairman for accommodating me. Mr. Doggett mentioned in his earlier contribution that he has had some international interest in this service. Does he see any possibility of developing it on an all-island basis or rolling it out on a cross-Border basis?

Mr. Gary Doggett:

That is an interesting question. There have been some developments recently. The Probation Service has bought into our services to a significant extent in the last year or two. We have a board member from the Probation Service, which has recommended our course to a judge on the other side of the Border in Derry. He accepted our evaluations in one case in the past. Two more cases are pending. It has been recommended that two clients attend our course. We have had very good international co-operation so far. When we were setting out on this journey, we looked at much of what is going on in other countries. We were very conscious of providing a good service. We wanted to see what is working in other areas. One of the original authors of the reasoning and rehabilitation model, which was mentioned earlier by Mr. McFadden and is well recognised internationally, is based in Estonia. He very kindly came over, basically at cost, to deliver training for some of our facilitators. We have had massive buy-in from those guys as well. As I mentioned earlier, the authorities in the Czech Republic have more or less handed us the programme they use within their prison system.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Pringle wants to come in at this point.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The Chairman will agree that we have all been very impressed with what we have heard here. I hope both joint committees can correspond with the two Ministers. I do not know whether it is something that can be decided now or will have to be decided later.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I presume that after today's meeting, each committee will consider the matter at its next meeting.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We can work together from there.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will be in contact.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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That is in order. I thank the Chair.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I have a few questions. Most of them have been answered. I must say I have been highly impressed with what I have heard. The witnesses are pushing all the right buttons as far as I am concerned. Is the organisation unique on this island? Are there other groups doing the same thing?

Mr. Mick Quinlivan:

No.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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There is no competition anywhere. That is good. What is the structure of the organisation? Is it a limited company, a not-for-profit body or a charity?

Mr. Mick Quinlivan:

It is a limited not-for-profit company with no share capital.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Does it have charitable status?

Mr. Mick Quinlivan:

It is in the process of getting that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Very good.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

I could outline the backgrounds of a few of our board members. I do not think I have done so before now. Our board of directors includes a serving member of the Probation Service, a community liaison officer, a public representative who is also a health care worker, an education specialist who deals with disadvantaged groups, a qualified counsellor who specialises in bereavement counselling and a representative from the business community.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Okay. That is very good to know. I have a few other questions. Insurance companies have been mentioned. I noticed in the documentation that was furnished to us a reference to the cost in some other jurisdiction. It was mentioned that the cost per participant is approximately $300. Did the witnesses give us this document? I think they did. The document also refers to "economic bottom lines of about $2,400 in net taxpayer-only benefits per participant". Is Mr. Doggett familiar with that?

Mr. Gary Doggett:

No.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The programme in question is known as R&R, or reasoning and rehabilitation.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

Perhaps that is being used in other areas. We charge €150 per client at the moment.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Does the client pay the €150 himself or herself?

Mr. Gary Doggett:

Yes. That charge has applied since we made the presentation to the Bar Association. It has been pointed out to us by victims' groups that it is vitally important that people do pay.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

Otherwise, it can be viewed as a free course that leads to a reduction in the sentence, which would be a win-win situation. It is a question of feeling the pain, if I may use that term. The mammy quite often phones up to book the course. I recently had a mammy sitting in on the interview with the young man. This guy was about 25 years old. When I brought up the cost of the programme, the mammy said "sure I'll pay for it, didn't I give birth to him?". When I asked her if she was driving or sitting in the car, she said "No". I told her I would much prefer the young man to pay for it because he needed to learn. That is very much where we are at from a financial perspective.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That is interesting from the point of view of the victim. There is no two ways about that.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

Absolutely.

Mr. Paul McCusker:

I would like to speak about the structure and the cost as a limited company. We are fully compliant with everything. We are a voluntary group. There is quite an overhead accruing, even as a voluntary group, in order to stay legal. That is where the need for support arises. We have received an incredible amount of goodwill from Donegal. A question was asked about Donegal County Council. People have put a great amount of time, energy and effort into this project. That is a demonstration of the goodwill that exists. This brings me back to my original point. We have to provide certainty.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the €200,000 cost relate to the overall structures? Are the actual courses paid for by the people who take part in them?

Mr. Paul McCusker:

Yes. It is a question of having a seven-county structure in place with certainty. We would hate to arrive in and promise things we cannot deliver. We would not like to say we will run courses only for those courses not to materialise because of factors within our control. That is the reality of the €200,000. Basically, it costs €100,000 a year to run this programme over seven counties and deal with the demand. We do not know what the demand is because no one else is offering this. We estimate, based on the figures in Donegal, that between 600 and 800 young people would come through.

Mr. Martin McFadden:

Obviously, a roll-out over several counties will give us a broader depth and width in working with clients, which will inform the data and strengthen the programme as we move forward.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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As I said in the beginning, I am impressed with what I have heard so far. Could I ask about insurance costs and so forth? It appears to me that it would be a huge advantage to insurance companies to have this type of programme rolled out across the country because the savings they would make, for example in reducing accidents alone, would be pretty big. Has the positive benefit per participant in monetary terms - the net bottom line - been analysed?

Mr. Gary Doggett:

Not as yet.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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A figure of $2,400 has been suggested here.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

It is a question of resources.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Of course. Maybe some of the universities might take that on and give a hand.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

Absolutely.

Mr. Mick Quinlivan:

One of our problems is that we are localised at the moment. As insurance companies work on a national basis, it is very difficult to get in there.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Maybe they are watching today.

Mr. Mick Quinlivan:

Hopefully.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

We had a conversation some time ago with businesses in the community about strategies for moving forward. Insurance is one of the two of the areas in which we have thought about this. We have already discussed the possibility of young people who come on the course beforehand getting a reduced premium for taking part in the course. That would seem to be a no-brainer. We were also looking at the possibility that larger corporations might be interested in the emotional control module, which provides half a day of training for staff in the area of emotional control. It is particularly difficult to drive in the city. It is a highly charged emotional experience nowadays. It is another area we have been considering. As Mr. McCusker said, there is some uncertainty in this regard. When we have some form of certainty, we can explore these possibilities in more depth.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Doggett mentioned the Etruscan centre, representatives of which came to see us some years ago. They are involved in anger management and stuff like that.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

No, I mentioned the Trasna project here in Dublin, which employs ex-offenders.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I am familiar with the Care After Prison model.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

Yes, I know Stephen Doyle.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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It is a great organisation. Yesterday, I visited the Churchfield Community Trust in Cork, which has a similar type of model. Last week, a number of us were in Portugal to look at its drug policy, whereby it diverts people from the criminal justice system to rehabilitation, counselling and treatment. Again, it seems a very positive approach.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

It is successful too.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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From that point of view, I and, I am sure, my justice committee colleagues would be very interested in supporting this in any way we can and in learning more about what the programme does.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

Mr. McFadden touched on the point that it is very easy to demonise people for what is quite often impulsivity and poor decision making at a moment in time. We really understand that people are hurt by collisions, accidents and so on. We are very much on the side of the victim and want to reduce the number of victims.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Of course.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

At the same time, we cannot just demonise everybody who has transgressed on occasion.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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If we make the roads safer, we make them safer for everybody.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

That is our goal.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Does the programme have a presence on social media?

Mr. Gary Doggett:

We have a website, which I had to build myself, unfortunately, and we are on Twitter and Facebook.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was glad to hear Mr. Mick Quinlivin clarifying the idea that the witnesses did not want this to be a get-out-of-jail card for serious offenders. I was listening to Mr. Doggett on radio at an early hour this morning, but there was another news item later where somebody was being released after four years of a seven year sentence. While I do not know the details of that, he had escaped and re-offended at some stage. There is the human side of this, so I am glad there is a balance and that this is to improve behaviour and save lives, not to give people an escape route from being dealt with if the offences are serious.

I understand the Government's Road Safety Strategy 2013-20 has made provision for the introduction, subject to legal advice, of rehabilitation and driving awareness courses as court-based sentencing options for specific offenders.

Mr. Gary Doggett:

We are aware of that and we absolutely applaud it. We hope we get support from that and we would see ourselves fitting into that category.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, that would be a competitive tender, but the witnesses will be aware of all of that. I thank the witnesses for attending. They came in with solutions rather than problems, which is the opposite of what often happens. As we said, each committee will be deliberating on this and we will be in touch with each other. We wish the witnesses well in their efforts to roll this out over a wider area.