Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 23 April 2015
Public Accounts Committee
Business of Committee
10:00 am
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are the minutes of our meeting of 16 April 2015 agreed? Agreed. As there are no matters arising from the minutes, we will move to correspondence received since 16 April 2015.
No. 3A.1 is correspondence dated 15 April 2015 from the Comptroller and Auditor General, a follow-up on our meeting with the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, DDDA, regarding funding to the Jeanie Johnston. The correspondence is to be noted and published.
No. 3A.2 is correspondence dated 15 April 2015 from Mr. John McCarthy, Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, regarding a follow-up on our meeting regarding the DDDA. The correspondence is to be noted and published.
No. 3A.3 is correspondence dated 17 April 2015 from Mr. John Crawley, financial adviser, DDDA. The correspondence is to be noted and published.
Nos. 3B.1 and 3B.2 are correspondence from Ms Jacinta Stewart, CEO of SUSI, and Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, regarding the overpayment of student grants. We will deal with this in June when we examine the special report produced by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The correspondence is to be noted and published.
No. 3B.3 is correspondence from Mr. Paul O'Toole of SOLAS regarding recoupment of spousal travel in FÁS between 2002 and 2008. The correspondence is to be noted and published.
No. 3B.4 is correspondence dated 15 April 2015 from Mr. John McCarthy, Secretary General, Department of Environment, Community and Local Government, regarding recoupment of spousal travel in FÁS between 2002 and 2008. The correspondence is to be noted and published.
No. 3B.5 is correspondence dated 15 April 2015 received from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú regarding recoupment of spousal travel in FÁS between 2002 and 2008, which is to be noted and published.
No. 3C is documents relating to today’s meeting, comprising Nos. 3C.1 and 3C.2, the briefing document and opening statement. These are to be noted and published.
No. 4 is reports, statements and accounts received since 16 April 2015. There are four and they are to be noted and published.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there any reason that the correspondence on recoupment of spousal travel in FÁS is so anonymous? Is it acceptable? In his reply, Mr. O'Toole said he received something from one of them and something else from another. Why do we not ask who has paid what?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We can ask.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can we reply and ask who has paid what?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, we will reply to each and ask them to provide the full information.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Our work programme is on the screen. Next week, we will have consideration of reports. If members have any input to make, I ask them to contact the clerk to the committee. We will not publish the reports until we have gone through them. It is proposed to go through them next week and launch them the following week. Is the work programme okay? We will not have witnesses next week because we will have to shift around the HSE. However, this will give us an opportunity to go through any of the reports.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are we doing a report on the Docklands and the Jeanie Johnston?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Given that we are at an early stage with the report, members who want to make comments on it can take the opportunity to talk to the clerk to the committee.
No. 6 is any other business.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yesterday, there was a report in the newspaper about a savings protection scheme run by the credit union movement. The credit unions paid into a fund to help other credit unions and it has been in existence for a number of years. I raise it in the context that the Credit Union Restructuring Board, ReBo, came before the committee some months ago. ReBo uses taxpayers' money to help credit unions that may be in difficulty to amalgamate or work together. Is there a conflict regarding money the credit unions already had, how they are spending it and how taxpayers' money is being spent? Are they aware of each other's movements? Is the Central Bank aware of how the money is being spent? Is there anything we can do to move it forward? While it is operated by the credit unions themselves, if we are providing taxpayers' money to help the credit union movement, surely there is a link to the money they may already have.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We can start by bringing it to the attention of the Central Bank and we will get a note on it. When we receive the note and understand the background to it from the Central Bank's perspective, the Deputy can decide whether he wants to discuss it further. The first step is to get the information, if the Deputy agrees. We will do it immediately and report back to the members.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Comptroller and Auditor General was to do more work regarding Thornton Hall, the proposed prison in north county Dublin that cost €50 million but which remains incomplete. The Department indicated that it had established an expert group to consider the future of the site. The Department had installed sanitation in all the cells. Since the decision was taken not to go ahead, the media has reported that up to 800 prisoners are taking an action regarding the practice of slopping out. Could we have some clarification about what will happen?
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Could I also ask for an update on the expert group that is examining the future?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, we will get a note on it. On the matter the Taoiseach raised yesterday, which is in the public domain, regarding the Comptroller and Auditor General and the value for money report regarding the sale of a company, I understand the Comptroller and Auditor General has no remit in the area.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is the Comptroller and Auditor General saying the Taoiseach was wrong to give him a job to do which is not in his remit?
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
So the Taoiseach is incorrect.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
So the Taoiseach is incorrect.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is better that is answered by-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
By the Taoiseach.
Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Correct.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----by the statement that this committee or the Comptroller and Auditor General, as it stands, do not have the remit to question IBRC on the particular sale of the company they are speaking about. However, it is the case that if the Government decided to change the legislation or to bring in specific legislation in regard to that type of inquiry, it could then be done, but not now. I was in the Chamber yesterday and was surprised by the announcement, but now that we have clarity on it, the Government can issue a further statement of intent if it wants to. As of today, however, that is our position.
Relative to that, and because it was mentioned in regard to the Department of Finance, can we now ask for the papers relative to the sale of other entities, given it was specifically stated that there was a concern by Department officials in regard to how other entities were disposed of? Presumably, it is within our remit to ask that question and to seek that information from the Department of Finance not just in regard to one transaction, but also the other transactions they were concerned about. I think that is something the committee can request. If that is the case, then I would suggest to members that the least we should do is ask for all of the information on the other entities that have been spoken about.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate the clarity of the Comptroller and Auditor General in stating that, as it stands, he and his office have no remit or power to investigate matters related to IBRC. I am struck by the fact - this is my interpretation and I am not attributing this thought process to the Comptroller and Auditor General - that the Department indicated a willingness to bring forward legislation to expand the role and remit, and, by extension, the role and remit of this committee. Our experience has been, to my way of thinking over the past number of months, that, in fact, we have had our wings trimmed and a narrow remit has been very carefully observed and overseen. If there is a proposition or a willingness to extend the reach of the Comptroller and Auditor General, and, by extension, of this committee, I would find that very interesting. We should certainly have a view on that and we should seek to have an input to it.
It would seem extraordinary if the Government or the Department were proposing to bring forward legislation to allow the Comptroller and Auditor General to look only at the Siteserv transaction because, as the Chairman himself said, the concerns that have been raised are far broader than that. I support the Chairman's proposal to correspond with the Department and anyone else on all of those matters, first, to establish what is going on, and, second, to take a view as to whether, even with extended powers, the Comptroller and Auditor General is the proper and appropriate office to review, consider and conclude all of these matters.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
First, I welcome the suggestion by the Taoiseach that this matter might be dealt with by the PAC and, by extension, I presume that, if legislation was required, such legislation would be provided. It is something that we have been expressing to some degree in regard to some of the limitations on our work. If that can be enhanced by an extension through legislation, that should be welcomed and we should seek to have a considerable input to that legislation.
Second, in regard to Siteserv, IBRC was a bank that went into State ownership and Siteserv was a construction services company that, likewise, would have come into State ownership because all the debts were taken over by the State. Is it possible that Siteserv could be looked at as an entity in its own right, distinct from IBRC? I know there are ramifications and, obviously, linkages which are substantial. However, in its own right, is Siteserv, as an entity that was in the possession of the State before it was sold off, not something that the Comptroller and Auditor General could examine, as distinct from IBRC? It is hard to make that distinction.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No, but if one takes it that our remit is to deal with the taxpayer, and the taxpayer had put €34 billion into IBRC itself, then an entity that came under that also became part and parcel of what was both guaranteed by the bank guarantee and was effectively in State ownership - in other words, the assets were linked to IBRC. At that point in time, are we not talking about the protection of taxpayers' money, which is part of the remit of this committee?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Again, I am not answering for the Comptroller and Auditor General, but I just want to move it on, if I can. The Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act 1993 deals with the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. In this particular instance, neither the Comptroller and Auditor General nor, by extension, the PAC has any responsibility or any remit in regard to IBRC. While the company may or may not have been in State ownership at some stage or other during the process, it is the case that, for example, AIB is in State ownership but we do not have it before us. What we need to do is focus on what was suggested by the Taoiseach yesterday and the comment Mr. McCarthy has added to that this morning, namely, that if the PAC or the Comptroller and Auditor General were to look at this, it would require legislation. In the context of that legislation, I am taking from members that we would take the opportunity to look at the remit of the committee and have an input to the legislation.
Second, what is within our remit is the Department of Finance and its officials. We have already agreed to ask for the paperwork in regard to their concerns and the entities they were concerned about so we can examine them. They are due before us on 17 May and it is possible that if we flag it for them, we can deal with the issues generally from the Department's perspective. However, we do not have a role in regard to private companies, and that has to be made clear. We have a number of suggestions here that the members are agreeable on, and I will ask the clerk to act on each one of them today.
John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would like to have clarification with regard to the IBRC liquidation in 2011 and its ceasing to trade entirely on 7 February 2013. Was it taken over by NAMA?
John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Since then, who has been managing the portfolio of properties and debt that is attached to it?
John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On that point in regard to assets, since 2013 has NAMA had any involvement with that residual debt?
John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What residual debt was left with IBRC that was not taken over by NAMA?
John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I think what the Taoiseach was saying is that there could be enhanced powers for the Comptroller and Auditor General's office to deal with this, and perhaps it would be very important to extend that to the others. The fact we can bring in the Department of Finance is certainly a good start.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I think the kernel of this argument is that it has to be an independent analysis.
That is where the Taoiseach was coming from. In the context of having an independent analysis, I am sure his office and the Government are looking at the legislation to do with this committee, or indeed to do with the-----
John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am not doubting the Chairman on that point. This committee is totally independent in what it does. I think he would have no difficulty whatever with that. For that reason, I have no doubt that there will be-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is also the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004.
John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Maybe that is an alternative. I do not know.
John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am sure the Government will be looking at it. We will keep in touch with that through the clerk.
John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I heard the Chairman on "Morning Ireland" this morning. I think the points he made with regard to how this can be dealt with were very important and salient. It is important that we find an effective way to proceed with it.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you, Deputy Perry. We will move on.
Before we call the witnesses, I would like to mention that we wrote to NAMA in relation to a particular individual case. We sent on the correspondence to it. I propose we should ask NAMA to give us an update on the same matter, which relates to an individual in Mullingar, because it has not been resolved. Apparently, there has been no contact. If we ask NAMA to set out the arrangements for contact, how it is being dealt with and the current state of play, we will be able to answer the correspondence we have received.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would like to mention one final matter. Last week, we spoke about the meeting on Government procurement that was attended by representatives of the Small Firms Association. I know they came back and said they were confused about who they will meet. Has that changed? Have they contacted the Irish Schools Art Supply Federation to say they will meet it?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is still unclear.
Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We are particularly clear about it. We asked that we would be notified. We also asked that the two groups which were here would be at that meeting. That is the way it was agreed in the context of the Department making contact and arranging the meeting. We will check and we will notify members during the day.
I would like to mention a further letter regarding the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. I do not have it to hand. We asked the Department official to ensure an appropriate meeting was arranged with Deputy Costello and the interested groups in that area. As I understand it, that has not happened. Has it happened?
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It happened yesterday morning.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Were the officials in contact with the Deputy? That was the way we left it. We agreed that they would contact the Deputy and all the groups we brought in.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I think they did it in a very circuitous way. They did not contact me. They contacted the Committee of Public Accounts to say they were arranging a meeting with various stakeholders. They did not formally invite us to go along, but I dropped along anyway. I do not know whether that fulfils the requirements here. I think it was specifically requested that the Department would meet me on the issues. That has not transpired.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I think we should bring that to the attention of the Department official who was here. Agreements or arrangements that are reached here at our meetings should be followed through, regardless of what they are, if those agreements are unanimous, as this one was at the time. We should ensure that, on each occasion, it is followed through to the letter of the agreement that is made.
Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate that.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Could we also ask the Dublin Docklands Development Authority to send us a note on the quality, content and outcomes of its meeting with the local stakeholders? In other words, we should ask it to tell us what happened, what was discussed and what was agreed. That will ensure the committee has a record of it.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will now move on to today's business. We have agreed our business for next week. Today we will deal with the HSE witnesses we have asked to attend.
Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would like to ask about the last time representatives of NAMA were in here, which was before Christmas. I had asked if it was possible to bring in people who had exited NAMA to discuss the experience they have had. I wonder where we are on that.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I think we had agreed to do that. We asked members who have any contact names to bring them forward.
Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can we give the names to the clerk?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, members can give the clerk the names of people who have had experiences of one kind or another. We can analyse those and move ahead with that suggestion.
Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the Chairman.