Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator Daly has tabled a motion on the imprisonment of Mr. Ibrahim Halawa. Before reading the motion, I ask the secretariat to distribute a letter. As I arrived here this morning the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade issued a letter. He has asked me to read it to the committee as he is anxious that it is put on the record. It reads:

Dear Chairman,

I wanted to write to you to update you and the Committee on the case of Irish citizen Ibrahim Halawa, particularly in respect of the court proceedings over the weekend and the reports that Ibrahim was being tortured.

The Court Case on Sunday

The postponed preliminary hearing of the case involving Ibrahim Halawa took place in Cairo on Sunday 29 March. Officials from Ireland's Embassy attended, including our Ambassador Isolde Moylan. This hearing was different to previous postponed hearings - all the defendants were present and the judge indicated that he would accept oral/written submissions from the lawyers present on behalf of their clients.

The very first submissions made related to minors and students. As part of this group Ibrahim Halawa's lawyers formally presented an application for his release and specifically referred to his youth, his student status and his Irish nationality. Among the documents submitted was a formal diplomatic note from the Embassy confirming the support of the Government for the application for his release, and other documents supporting the application that had been sourced with the assistance of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. The fact that the Irish Ambassador was present in the Court was noted. The trial was then adjourned until 26 April to allow for consideration of the petitions made. Lawyers have informed my Department that a decision on the petition is unlikely to be made before 26 April.

Reports of Torture

I was genuinely horrified over the weekend to hear the reports that had been made to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and in the media that Ibrahim was being tortured.

The welfare of an Irish citizen imprisoned abroad is a matter taken extremely seriously by the Government, and the very serious nature of the suggestions of torture being made led to immediate action being taken by the Consular Division of my Department and the Embassy in Cairo to clarify the situation. These initial investigations over the weekend indicated that the reports of torture appeared to be inaccurate.

However, as it was not possible for Embassy officials to speak directly to Ibrahim himself during the court proceedings on Sunday, Ambassador Moylan herself made an urgent consular visit to the prison yesterday (Monday).

That was last Monday. The letter continued:

She met with prison officials and had a visit during which Ibrahim was able to talk freely to her.

While imprisonment abroad is traumatic for any young Irish citizen, I was very relieved to hear that following her visit the Ambassador has reported that Ibrahim looked well, was in relatively good spirits and has not suffered any serious mistreatment, torture or abuse. Nor had he been housed in a death penalty cell as had been suggested in some reports over the weekend.

As such, based on the facts established by the Ambassador through direct contact with Ibrahim himself, the reports of torture were unfounded. Unfortunately, they may also have been damaging to our ongoing efforts in this case as they attributed to the Egyptian authorities a level of maltreatment and abuse that is not accurate.

The Ambassador did note that Ibrahim was sharing a cell with convicted criminals, and requested that he be moved to a more appropriate area of the prison - a request agreed to by the prison authorities.

I am aware that this is a very difficult time for the Halawa family, as it would be for any family in these circumstances. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade is keeping them fully informed of developments. The Department will continue to work cooperatively with them to make positive progress towards our shared goal which is Ibrahim's return.

As the Committee Members are aware, where Irish citizens are charged with offences abroad, it is the foreign court which decides matters such as bail and release. Just as politicians here cannot interfere with legal cases ongoing before the Irish courts, Ireland cannot directly interfere in cases before foreign courts. However, we continue to work on this case and to give all appropriate support to Ibrahim and his family. The lodgement of a formal diplomatic note of support for the release application in the Court is an important practical example of this solidarity.

Now that a formal application for release is being considered by the Egyptian court, it remains the considered view of the Government that the work necessary to assist in reaching a positive outcome in this case, which is ongoing and continuous, is best done in a low key, measured and resolute fashion.

The actions taken by me and my officials at all times are, and must be, guided by the fact that there is a young Irish citizen in prison abroad and subject to a foreign judicial system. I am grateful for the constructive approach that Members of the Committee have taken to date, and Iwould ask for their assistance in reminding all concerned that, however well meant, injudicious or intemperate public statements or actions may have a negative impact on Ibrahim's plight - rather than assisting the situation, they may in fact be contrary to his best interests.

I would also like to reassure you and the Committee that an enormous amount of work has been done on this case by the Department of Foreign Affairs. There is no other consular case receiving higher priority in my Department.

I am aware of the unfair and unfounded suggestions that the Department is failing to act or doing less because of Ibrahim Halawa's name or because of his Egyptian heritage. These unhelpful comments are so easy to make and so difficult for the officials involved to dispute. I would like to reassure you and Members of the Committee that any assertion that the Department is treating Ibrahim Halawa less favourably than how it might treat another Irish citizen is utterly untrue and entirely without foundation.

I am also aware of various calls for additional action by the Government. We keep all aspects of this case, including the Department's own approach under review. At all times, the key consideration for me and for the officials working on this case has been, and will continue to be, to take the action that is in Ibrahim Halawa's best interests. This is a complex case and our approach has to be based on the practical realities of how a consular service must act to best protect their citizens abroad. I will continue to keep the Committee briefed as appropriate through you Chairman, but I hope Members will appreciate that some of our work will be done quietly, but resolutely, behind the scenes and we would not propose to be making extensive public comment on all aspects.

I intend to be active on this case in the coming days and will be in touch with you again before the Easter break.

With kind regards,

Yours sincerely,

Charles Flanagan, T.D.

Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade

That is the letter from the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to update us on the situation.

As the committee will know, I am in touch with him on a weekly basis on this matter and I am also in touch with Ms Isolde Moylan. I have also been in touch with the Egyptian Embassy in Dublin on this case. The committee has taken a serious interest in this case over the past number of months and will continue to do so to maximise our input into getting Mr. Halawa released.

Senator Daly has tabled a motion on the matter which reads: "That the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade requests the Taoiseach to contact the President of Egypt in relation to Ibrahim Halawa's case." I call on him to move his move and speak on the matter.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move:

That the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade requests the Taoiseach to contact the President of Egypt in relation to Ibrahim Halawa's case.

I welcome the Minister's letter.

It is comprehensive. He raised many issues in it which appear to contradict what other governments have successfully done to achieve the release of their citizens abroad. I note previous correspondence from the Department in which it states that its primary concern is his treatment while in prison. I believe its primary concern should be his release, not his treatment in prison. In his letter the Minister mentioned his treatment in prison. We know from his cell mate, an Australian citizen who was released, that he did not receive any treatment after being shot in the hand during his arrest. His treatment was carried out by an inmate, which has now left him with a disability. When the Egyptian authorities say he is being treated appropriately, that must be questioned.

The reports regarding whether he is in a death row cell are not from the Egyptian authorities but from Amnesty International, which has confirmed that until very recently he was in a death row cell. I am glad he has been moved, if that is true. However, that is psychological torture. Written on the walls of those cells are the last messages of people who were condemned to die. We must remember that is the fate facing Ibrahim Halawa. He is one of 426 prisoners who could face a death sentence.

I note the reference in the letter to quiet diplomacy. He has been in jail for 600 days, so the days for quiet diplomacy are over and should cease. Let us look at what has worked in other countries. I have distributed some media reports of what the Prime Minister of Australia, Tony Abbott, did to seek the release of Australian journalist Peter Greste. He had a meeting with President al-Sisi when they were attending the United Nations heads of state meeting. Mr. Abbott was public about those meetings. Even President Obama spoke up on behalf of this Australian citizen. An ABC News report referred to how the release of this Australian citizen was carried out by presidential decree, something that is also open to Ibrahim Halawa as an Irish born citizen. However, our Government has not engaged at the highest level. I spoke to the Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, about this case. Obviously the Ministers for Foreign Affairs in Australia and Canada were involved. In one instance 19 calls were made in two weeks by the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. The Canadian Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, personally raised the case of a Canadian national with the President of Egypt.

The Irish Timesreported on 29 March that the case has been adjourned again until April. The days of quiet diplomacy are finished. The Egyptian Government must be made aware of how seriously the Irish people view this case. Amnesty International has reported that he has no case to answer and is innocent of all charges. If the President of Egypt wishes, he can be released by presidential decree tomorrow. Somebody must simply ask. We do not want him to be treated well while in prison; we want him out of prison. That is the reason we are putting forward this motion calling on the Taoiseach to contact his counterpart in Egypt on behalf of this Irish born citizen and seek his release. We are supportive of everything the officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade have done. They have briefed us. However, if the President of Egypt does not wish to release our citizen, whom Amnesty International has said is innocent of all charges, we should look to the European Union to impose trade sanctions on Egypt. That would show we are serious and that we will not sit quietly on our hands while this young Irish citizen is in jail.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator is being a little unfair to the Department by saying the Department's first priority is-----

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I am only quoting the Department.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator says the Department's first priority is not his release. It is his release.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not in the correspondence from the Department.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please let me finish. I did not interrupt the Senator. The Department's prime concern is his release, but it is also concerned about his well-being. He is a young student in a strange prison, as the Minister outlined. You are being unfair to our officials in Cairo as well. They have visited him on a regular basis to ensure he is well looked after. It is difficult for them but they do it, and keep a close eye on the situation. At our last meeting we heard they had made approximately 32 visits to him and they have also kept the family informed. The record must be corrected in that regard.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Chairman, I will forward the correspondence where the Department states that its primary concern is his treatment in prison.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And his release, which is important. That is outlined in the letter as well. It is important to clarify that so there is no misunderstanding about the Department in that regard. Its primary concern is his release. I know it, and I have been speaking to the Minister on a weekly basis about this. It is unfair to say otherwise. I also commend our team in Cairo and the ambassador, Ms Isolde Moylan, on their approach and the work they have done on this. Members received an update on that this morning from the Minister.

Does anybody else wish to speak on Senator Daly's motion?

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All of us recognise what the officials of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade have been doing both in headquarters here and in the embassy. I also recognise the work of the Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, who takes a hands-on approach to issues.

Senator Daly made it clear in his comments that he recognises the work of the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, and the officials concerned. However, Senator Daly also outlined that the intervention at Head of Government level by two countries had the desired effect. If a contact from the Taoiseach can help to advance the cause to have Ibrahim released as quickly as possible, it would support the work of the Minister, not cut across it. From that point of view it would be an important intervention.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does anybody else wish to discuss the motion?

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Durkan has tabled an amendment and we need to talk about that. There is also a vote in the Dáil, so perhaps Senator Walsh would be brief.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the motion, but I also welcome the comments in the Minister's letter and particularly the fact that we have lodged documents with the court. His lawyers include diplomatic documents from us with regard to his release. The Chairman, I and others met Ibrahim with his sisters in Cairo prior to their arrest but during the protests. They struck us as people who were there for a bit of an adventure, but unfortunately it has gone wrong for Ibrahim. Thankfully, his sisters were released. We should leave no stone unturned. I ask that this motion be agreed unanimously by the committee. The timing of when the Taoiseach would take this initiative, which I believe he should take, is left to his discretion. Whether it is done now or left until after 26 April when the court gives its decision might be a matter of what is the best strategy. However, it would be nice if the committee had already endorsed this motion so we would encourage the Taoiseach to continue the process being undertaken by the Government and the diplomatic service.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before we discuss Deputy Durkan's amendment, I will suspend the sitting for the vote in the Dáil.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could we agree the motion before suspending?

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. Deputy Durkan has proposed an amendment.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We return to public session. Senator Mark Daly has presented a motion and Deputy Bernard Durkan has submitted an amendment to it to delete all the words after "Trade" and substitute the following: "acknowledges the efforts by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade in relation to the Ibrahim Halawa case and urges the Minister to continue his efforts at all appropriate levels to ensure the speedy release of Mr. Halawa." I call on Deputy Durkan to move his amendment and speak in support of his amendment to the motion.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Trade" and substitute the following:"acknowledges the efforts by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade in relation to the Ibrahim Halawa case and urges the Minister to continue his efforts at all appropriate levels to ensure the speedy release of Mr. Halawa."

In moving the amendment, I do so not to be divisive but to simply follow a standard parliamentary procedure in relation to motions of this nature and also to allow the discussions taking place and the initiatives taken by the embassy staff and by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to reach fruition. I do so also on the basis of the discussions taking place as we speak. I am aware the Taoiseach has been directly involved in discussions with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. I strongly urge that we allow those ongoing delicate and sensitive discussions to take place without the distraction of a motion of a directive nature and in order to ensure that in matters of this nature, the procedure that has always been followed will be followed with the anticipated best effect. The points raised in the Minister's letter in regard to the mistreatment of Mr. Halawa should be noted by the committee. That is the best information that is available to the Taoiseach and the suggestion that the Taoiseach should override the functions and role of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade is not the way business is done in this jurisdiction. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade acts with the full authority and imprimatur of the Taoiseach in discussions of this nature and continues to so do and it would not be in the interests of Mr. Halawa to introduce any distraction which might facilitate discourse in a different direction.

It is important to acknowledge that the embassy staff have been in daily contact and made countless calls and visits to the prison. They have also met prison staff to ensure the constitutional rights of Ibrahim as an Irish citizen are acknowledged.

We are dealing with another jurisdiction and not our own, where it is improper to interfere in a case which is ongoing in the courts on account of its being sub judice. Some might say we are failing to recognise that principle in this case but the authorities in Egypt are also very conscious of the need to separate powers. It is not possible to do things by diktat and send directives to the courts and it would be dangerous to do so.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of information-----

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please allow Deputy Durkan to finish.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is misleading the committee.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No one is misleading anyone.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The President of Egypt can intervene if he so wishes.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will let Senator Daly back in and no one interrupted him, so I ask him to allow Deputy Durkan to finish his statement.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, with the support of the Taoiseach and officials in the embassy, is best placed to assess the situation and decide on the best approach in these circumstances. I have every confidence in the ability of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to have the maximum positive impact on the case of Ibrahim Halawa.

As a person who spent a bit of time inside the walls of a prison myself, I recognise the anguish caused to family members. Some people may smile about that but I can tell them that when the door closes for the second time and the double lock rings home, a person recognises they are in prison and that is a shock.

Our hearts go out to Ibrahim Halawa and we are doing everything possible at every level. I have spoken to the Taoiseach on this matter and with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. I do not accept the idea as expressed in the motion that there is a better way to do it. We are pursuing the better way and that is the way we can bring about the best result for Ibrahim Halawa and his family.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I find this a very difficult and sad issue. There is a huge amount of human capital involved and there are huge emotions. There is also danger and a fear on the part of the family that the Egyptian authorities will make the ultimate decision which would affect the life of their brother and son.

I do not like the way this issue is unfolding. We must remember the context. Three members of the Halawa family were arrested but while, thankfully, the two sisters were released on bail, the brother, tragically, remains in jail, where he has been for two years, having gone in at the age of 17.

The question for me, as a politician, is how best we can act in the interests of an Irish citizen in an Egyptian jail. Egypt is not a liberal democracy like Britain or Ireland. It has a very different judicial system and a very different political system. We have seen the tragedy of some cases decided by the courts in Egypt, including a mass decision to have some prisoners executed. We are dealing with an extremely sensitive and delicate issue and it is not one with which we should play politics. It is worrying that a parliamentarian or public representative, who should have sensitivity and should want to assist in the ultimate release of a prisoner whom the Egyptians claim to be a criminal case, would allege torture in this case, because that has been contradicted by our ambassador and the allegation could provoke a negative reaction on the part of the Egyptians.

We are in public session and we held a debate on the subject in the Dáil yesterday. We must ask ourselves in what way we believe the welfare of this prisoner will be protected. I have absolute confidence in the Minister and in our ambassador, with whom I have spoken specifically on this case. I beg those engaged in the campaign for his release to trust the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Minister. If the Taoiseach decides at the appropriate time to intervene, they should trust him to do so as well.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not disagree with a lot of what has been said by Deputy Durkan and I agree with everything Deputy Eric Byrne said. There is no implicit criticism in this motion of the Minister and I endorse the comments of Senator Daly and Deputy Brendan Smith in this regard. The Minister has shown real competence and I have praised him on his work on Northern Ireland. I fully accept that he will leave no stone unturned in this matter. We met ambassador Moylan, whom I know from previous postings, and I know how committed and dedicated she is to this case. I very much welcome what is in the letter but we are dealing with a hierarchical structure in Egypt and we need to ask how we can best achieve a positive outcome for the release of Ibrahim Halawa. If it were a son or a brother of any of us, we would want everything possible to be done.

Diplomatic niceties mean the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade cannot contact the President of Egypt, President el-Sisi. It would be in contravention of normal protocols but we have a template for action nevertheless. The Australian Prime Minister has intervened directly and has been in touch three times by telephone with the Egyptian President and that was a contributory factor in a positive outcome. The Canadian Prime Minister has also been in touch and my understanding is that the Canadian prisoner has been released on bail, though he remains in Egypt. If this committee were to agree to ask the Taoiseach to contact the President of Egypt, it would not cut across what Deputy Durkan and Deputy Byrne have said. That is all we ask. We are not saying he must do it today or tomorrow, although my instinct would be to suggest that he do it sometime prior to 26 April and maybe afterwards, depending on the outcome. The mere fact that we decide upon that, as a committee, will be known to the Egyptian authorities, including the embassy. I think that would also help the Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, in his efforts.

I do not see the proposals as mutually exclusive. Ultimately we are trying to do the best for this young man and to highlight the concerns we have for one of our citizens. I know that has been done at a certain level but all we are looking for is to raise it to the next level, namely, presidential level. It could have an impact as we have quite a large Egyptian community in Ireland, many of whom will have connections in Egypt, maybe even with the Administration.

We are respecting Egypt but it has a different system. There is the possibility of a presidential decree.

I will conclude by making an appeal, particularly to those on the Government side of the House. This is not a hostile motion against the Government, the Minister or anyone else. It is purely to see if we can assist the process. My colleagues will speak for themselves, and I am sure they will endorse what I am saying, but we commend the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, on what he has done to date. All we are doing is strengthening his position and allowing it to be raised, once it is considered timely to institute this particular motion.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Durkan made the point that he spoke to the Taoiseach about this matter, and that is welcome. Could we not send a letter to the Taoiseach on the basis that we had another discussion at this meeting on the desperate situation in which Ibrahim finds himself and the obvious concerns of his family and the wider community in Ireland; that we had another detailed report from the Minister for Foreign Affairs and had the opportunity, through a briefing from his officials, to recognise the ongoing work at official and ministerial level; that it was brought to the attention of the committee that the Prime Ministers of Australia and Canada made direct calls to their counterparts in Egypt on behalf of their citizens; and if it was felt by the Department and the Taoiseach's Department that such an intervention or a call by the Taoiseach to his counterpart in Egypt would be appropriate, we would welcome such an intervention to try to progress as quickly as possible the release of Ibrahim?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not wish to divide the House on the issue because it is sensitive. We do not know the conclusion the court will reach. We believe the court will make a decision shortly. That is the information that has been made available. In those circumstances, we are better off waiting to see what will happen next. There may be a need for an intervention, which would be unprecedented, but we do not know. If matters proceed satisfactorily, my belief is that we should proceed with the least fuss because there is always a danger of the Egyptian court deciding to take issue with the interference by a foreign government at the highest level, which may be seen as an intrusion in its internal affairs. It is very important at this stage that we do not aggravate the Egyptian authorities. Our job is to be insistent, persistent and persuasive in the way we go about what we have to do. We must remember also that diplomatic procedures that apply in all such exchanges must apply in this situation as well. I do not know what will be the outcome. No one in this room knows what the outcome will be of the court procedure. They may decide at the next hearing that there is nothing they need to do as there are no charges to be answered. We do not know. They may decide otherwise, but I am not aware of any situation whereby we can demand a prisoner held on whatever grounds to be released.

I dealt with the Birmingham Six, the Guildford Four and all the people from this country who were imprisoned in the United Kingdom in the 1980s. I attended the court hearings with a former Member of the House and Minister for Foreign Affairs, David Andrews, and Members from all sides, and we were conscious of the fact that we could not interfere with the courts and we could not be seen to be influencing the courts. In one of those cases the prisoners were found guilty by the courts. There were subsequent hearings and they were released and deported in some cases. The courts had made their decision and that was the best that could be done. No one could waive the charges, and the charges were not waived, but there were alleged miscarriages of justice.

We are dealing here with more distant and less familiar circumstances. If the committee wishes to adjourn the discussion pending the court decision, I have no problem with that. I believe we should leave the options open to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and allow him continue the work he is doing. I have no difficulty with Deputy Brendan Smith's suggestion of writing to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs reiterating the concerns of the committee and the need to ensure that an Irish citizen abroad is being treated properly and that in the event of the situation developing in a way we do not want, we have a different procedure to go through.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We got advice from the Department that diplomacy is best worked in a diplomatic way. Sadly, members not just of this committee but of the Parliament have decided that the old tactic of shouting and roaring from the backbenches contributes more effectively than the diplomatic route being taken by our diplomats. If there is a serious decision from the Egyptian courts, subsequent to the petitions being decided on, it is implicit that the Prime Minister of the country would plead on behalf of the convicted. We do not know yet if anyone will be convicted. It is presumptuous to suggest, in terms of the Taoiseach intervening, that at this stage we would burn our final bridge before a decision on the petitions is taken. My plea is that we wait and allow our diplomats work behind the scenes in a diplomatic way and wait for the decision of the petition because the lad might be released there and then. However, if we call in the Taoiseach at this delicate stage, we might provoke the situation. It is my belief that the more public this case is becoming, given the allegations of torture and the counter position of our ambassador, we are not doing the Halawa family any favours. We should wait on the outcome of the petition and see how the judiciary in Egypt views the petitions presented. It is hoped the lad will be coming home. If not, that will be the appropriate time for the Taoiseach to intervene.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the case of the Canadian and Australian nationals, it was the Prime Ministers' telephone calls and meetings with President el-Sisi that secured their release, nothing else. There was nothing from their departments of foreign affairs or their Ministers for foreign affairs. It was the direct intervention that worked. We welcome all the work the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the officials and the ambassador in Egypt have done, but in the case we are referring to, it has been proven that it was only the direct intervention of the Prime Ministers of the countries concerned that secured the release of those citizens. That is why we are asking our members to support them. There are 426 people on trial. The chances of a mass trial being fair to this Irish citizen is, to put it mildly, limited. Amnesty International has said he has no case to answer.

Reference was made to it being improper to interfere but the Prime Ministers of Canada and Australia interfered, if that is the correct word - I would call it intervening on behalf of their citizens - and they were successful. We must not say we are doing everything possible because everything possible includes the Taoiseach getting involved. Nowhere in that letter did they say that they might get the Taoiseach involved. They are saying they are doing their bit. It did not work for the Canadians until the Prime Minister got involved. That is why we are asking for the Taoiseach to get involved in this particular case in order that President el-Sisi can do what he did for everyone else.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When the Minister for Foreign Affairs was before the committee, he outlined that the cases against the other people were different from the Ibrahim Halawa case.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They were convicted in court.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please allow the Chair to speak. There is no case so far against Ibrahim Halawa. What is the goal of the committee today? For all of us, the goal is to obtain the release of Ibrahim Halawa. We received a very strongly worded letter today from the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade on the issue. I ask the members to read it seriously line by line to see what is in it. I quote one part:

Now that the formal application for release is being considered by the Egyptian court, it remains the considered view of the Government that the work necessary to assist in reaching a positive outcome in this case, which is ongoing and continuous, is [most importantly] best done in a low key, measured and resolute fashion.

I direct members to the end of the Minister's letter, the last line of which reads, "I intend to be active in this case in the coming days and will be in touch again with you before the Easter break". We are all saying the Minister is doing a great job and no one here has undermined his work or that of his officials here or in Cairo, including ambassador Moylan. I ask the members of the committee to take on board what the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, says in the letter he has sent them. They should take on board what is happening here. We can revisit the case in the next two weeks to see what the story is if nothing is happening. I believe something positive can happen in this case if it is left to our officials and embassy to continue to make representations for the release of Ibrahim Halawa. It is hoped it will. This is what we all want.

Rather than jeopardise anything that might happen in respect of Ibrahim Halawa, we should wait and see. The judge has indicated he will accept oral and written submissions from lawyers on a particular date, which is something that has not happened before. There is a great deal of progress being made and I ask the members to let the embassy and Minister do their jobs in the coming few weeks to see if we can get Ibrahim released. Bringing it to another stage now might undermine the role of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On adopting a low-key, measured approach, I note that while it should be measured, the Australians and Canadians did not adopt low-key methods. We must follow the example that worked, not the one that is not working.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With all due respect, the Senator is not in Cairo. Our embassy staff and officials are in Cairo and they are following this very closely. They feel this is the best way forward in Ibrahim's interests, and we need to take note of that. We have heard a great deal of misinformation coming from sources.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Amnesty International, according to our report here.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those have been corrected by the Minister this morning. We should note the work being done and be guided by that. We are talking about two weeks. We want to get this young man out of prison. He is too young to be there. His career and education are ahead of him, we need to get him out and we should take on board the views of the Department on this.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Durkan said he had no problem with my suggestion that we write to the Taoiseach outlining that we have discussed this matter today, that reference was made to the intervention of his counterparts in regard to prisoners that had a successful outcome, and asking that if his intervention would be appropriate at this stage, he would do everything possible to support the work of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. We should communicate with the Taoiseach. Obviously, the Government has information available at official level that we do not have.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have no problem with us writing to the Taoiseach and noting our concern for Ibrahim Halawa, but the Taoiseach is well aware of this case and is to meet the Halawa family in the very near future.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the basis that we discuss it again at committee, it is no harm.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Rather than undermine the Taoiseach's efforts, we should-----

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not undermining, we are supporting.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach is very conscious of the matter and will meet Ibrahim Halawa's father soon in another context. The members should let matters go on as they are and if they are not coming to a successful resolution, we can revisit the case in the interests of Ibrahim Halawa. This is what we are all interested in. We are interested in the release of this young man from a prison in Cairo. There is a great deal happening and it should be allowed to go ahead without us adding any confusion to it.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is another issue which needs to be borne in mind. This is not identical to the cases of the previous prisoners who were released. This case is different. Amnesty International said that Ibrahim Halawa has no case to answer. In the event that is true, and I accept what Amnesty International says, the procedure being followed so far is the correct one. In the event of there being a different outcome, which happened in the other cases, the ultimate intervention must take place. However, that is a different story. In that case, the judicial process will have been concluded and the matter will then be in the ambit of anyone to intervene in a way that is appropriate. My view is that we do not fire our best shot at this stage as we do not know what the eventual outcome will be. It might well be resented by the courts as they will be conscious of the fact that people in Mr. Halawa's home country and Oireachtas Members are obviously concerned. If one begins to try to influence the court in any jurisdiction, whether one's own or otherwise, it may not go down very well. It is not something we should play politics with either. We should minimise that and recognise that this is a delicate situation. Someone's well-being and possibly their life are at stake, in which case we should proceed in the best way possible to ensure the best possible outcome.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before I bring in Senator Walsh, I have a suggestion to ensure we go forward together on this. It is based on Deputy Smith's suggestion. We should follow up on the correspondence we received this morning from the Minister on what is happening and also send a copy and a separate letter to the Taoiseach on the committee's concerns about Ibrahim Halawa asking that every effort be made by the Department to ensure his release. That might be a compromise.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that we are trying to come to a conclusion when we are all together. That is important. I am still having difficulty understanding the reluctance to accept the motion that has been put. There is no time factor in it.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have a difficulty after the Minister's letter this morning that we would doubt what is happening.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not. I have accepted everything and welcome the Minister's letter. I do not understand the reluctance because the motion does not have a time factor. While I accept there is a judgment call as to whether one does it before or after the court process, I am mindful that the courts have been postponed many times. He has been in prison for almost two years. As has been said, he has no case to answer. From my observations having been there and seen what was going on during the protests, in all probability he has no case to answer. The problem is that this seems to be a group trial of 426 people. I cannot see a situation where the courts are going to find that none of the 426 people has a case to answer. That is unlikely. How long more will Mr. Halawa continue to be in prison? I appreciate ambassador Moylan's efforts having recognised that Ibrahim Halawa was with criminals. I have a concern that the longer he is in the system, the greater the danger of radicalisation. We have all seen the outcome of that. He is probably in prison with people who have been radicalised. I see an urgency about the matter.

I ask for a clarification on the letter. I commend the ambassador on intervening to get him moved from a cell with convicted criminals. The letter says the request was agreed to by the prison authorities. Has it been implemented? It is one thing to agree, but another to implement it.

Is he removed from that prison cell?

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will try to get an update on that for the Senator today. Members are talking about the court case but I again refer back to the letter, which states:

The hearing was different to previous postponed hearings as all defendants were present and the judge indicated that he would accept oral or written submissions from the lawyers present on behalf of their clients. The trial was then adjourned until 26 April to allow consideration of the petitions made. Lawyers have been informed by my Department that a decision on the petition is unlikely to be made before 26 April.

There will, therefore, be a decision on the petitions on 26 April. We should support the Minister in his efforts in this regard and inform the Taoiseach about what we are doing as well rather than attempt to bring it a step further, which could jeopardise the release of Ibrahim Halawa. Will Senator Daly withdraw the motion for a few weeks before putting it again to the members after that date because something will hopefully happen in the interim?We should support the efforts of the Department and the Minister and we should let the Taoiseach know that we are supporting them and that we are serious about the case of an Irish citizen incarcerated in an Egyptian prison

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I suggest that we revisit the motion and that we write to the Taoiseach to ask him to examine what other jurisdictions have done to secure the release of their citizens and to ask the Department of Foreign Affairs to keep him briefed on a daily basis on the case. On 26 April, the motion will be put to a vote, if needs be.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I accept that. It is a good compromise. That shows good unity within the committee and it is in the best interests of Ibrahim Halawa. I will write to the Taoiseach.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We support Deputy Durkan's amendment as well.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Deputy Durkan withdrawing his amendment?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will members be given copies of the letter to the Taoiseach prior to the next meeting?

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will do that and it will also be copied to the Minister.