David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Dr. Sheila Willis, director general of Forensic Science Ireland, and her colleague Dr. Seán McDermott. I will invite Dr. Willis to make an opening statement lasting five minutes or so and then we will have a question and answer session.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I thank Dr. Willis and her team for allowing us to visit their facility in Phoenix Park a few weeks ago. We were very impressed with the work at the facility and the personnel we met. The facility is another day’s work. Dr. Willis can make her opening statement now and we will have a discussion after that.

Dr. Sheila Willis:

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to speak to the committee on behalf of Forensic Science Ireland, FSI, which I passionately believe provides a very good service to the people of Ireland. We number 96 but partly due to issues raised earlier and partly to retirements we have much fewer staff available for work. We are civil servants. The majority are qualified scientists such that the standard of science in FSI is probably higher than anywhere else outside academia, mainly in the areas of chemistry and biology.

We provide a scientific service to the criminal justice system in the area of DNA, chemistry and drug analysis. We work on samples submitted by An Garda Síochána from crime scenes in a broad range of cases such as possession and supply of controlled drugs, armed robbery, murder, burglary, assault, explosives, fires, accidents, criminal damage and firearm cases. I heard it said earlier today that the world is getting more and more complex. That is certainly true of our business too.

We examine approximately 13,000 cases annually. This number varies and the fluctuation is due primarily to variation in the numbers of submissions of controlled drugs. The numbers of drugs go up and down, in line, I think, with economic factors. Recently there has been a steady increase in DNA submissions. This is in line with experience around the world. We are no different from anywhere else. The most important work is the laboratory examinations which can either be to identify material such as a controlled substance, a drug or an explosive or to link a suspect and a victim. These links, which are sometimes referred to as trace evidence, consist of a wide range of materials such as fibres from clothing, paint, glass and fire accelerants.

The biggest breakthrough in forensic science in my lifetime was the discovery by Sir Alec Jeffreys in the mid-1980s of the use of DNA profiling in crime investigations. We began offering this service in the mid-1990s and have been in a state of continuous development and change ever since because of the changing technologies. In the early days a sample the size of a bloodstain was needed to generate a DNA profile whereas nowadays it can be obtained from virtually any invisible surface.

We do not fit the clinical model of small samples submitted in a uniform manner. The committee members who visited the laboratory will have seen the range in size and type of samples that come in. For example, when they came in there was a door with footprints on it. There might be a bicycle from a hit and run traffic accident, sets of clothing, bedclothes, knives, guns, and large volumes of drugs. The logistical issues are the biggest challenge rather than the analytical difficulties, particularly in the context of the facilities we work in and the concern about ensuring there is no cross-contamination.

The President signed the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence and DNA Database System) Act into law in June 2014. When implemented this will significantly aid crime investigation. Ireland is one of the last countries in the developed world not to have such an aid. The experience in other countries is that as soon as such a system is implemented the case work demands increase.

People who watch “CSI” on television are used to seeing everything done in 47 minutes by one person. In real life, however, we work in very close partnership with a range of people, the principal ones being An Garda Síochána. The gardaí mainly examine crime scenes and submit samples to us. On occasion scientists go out to scenes. Even when they do not go out to scenes scientists have a responsibility to provide training to gardaí on scenes-of-crime needs. This includes what needs to come into the laboratory in order to ensure that something sensible in the way of evidence is generated.

We have a service level agreement with An Garda Síochána as a way of agreeing what services there are between the two organisations and some level of cooperation is vital because although the independence of FSI is important the work is only relevant if it addresses questions raised in crime investigations. Ultimately, the work of the laboratory ends up in some contested court cases, not many but enough to be a big draw on resources. On some occasions the science is probed very deeply and on other occasions the main issue is almost administrative, such as continuity. It is a very expensive way of using court time. In other jurisdictions, even ones that have an adversarial system, it is my understanding that many issues are addressed outside the court such that the matters at issue to be contested are confined to the court rather than what happens here where it is almost a case of set them up and see what falls.

Although I have said several times the laboratory is the main focus the staff are involved in a wide range of other activities between court, scenes and training. The independence of forensic science of law enforcement is an active discussion around the world, particularly in the United States of America.

I am comfortable that we have a good model in Ireland. While we have independence and a strong association and liaison to science, we enjoy a good working relationship with An Garda Síochána. That is good and is one of the values of a smaller society.The laboratory is inspected at various levels.We carry ISO17025 which is the international standard for testing laboratories. As part of this process we have external oversight and visits from other scientists. These assessors generally come from abroad because the work we do is fairly specialised in nature and there is not a great number of people available in this country to do it. This accreditation consists of a couple of days each year where a number of people from other countries come and go through the various systems in the laboratory. We also have the pleasure of defence visits. The defence can employ a scientist who is obliged to review the work of the laboratory on behalf of the defence. That can be a challenging exercise, not necessarily because there is anything wrong with the work, but I believe very few people are exposed to the level of scrutiny in their everyday work as individuals in our organisation are.

The organisation has been reviewed on three separate occasions since its establishment 40 years ago. The most recent was the Kopp report published in 2006. More and more countries are recognising that forensic science is not really a stand-alone function, it is almost a co-produced product. There are struggles across the world as to what is a good model to deliver forensic science. To my knowledge there has not been an ideal model identified, but more and more countries are going towards more integration. The Chairman mentioned Scotland. It is looking at scene of crime laboratory and pathology services being united into one package. In our case this would necessitate integrating the State Pathology Service, the Garda Technical Bureau and Forensic Science Ireland.

Facilities as an issue is very close to my heart because I have been involved in up to seven projects to produce appropriate facilities for Forensic Science Ireland. The most recent project fell at the economic downturn, and I can well understand that, but I am very anxious to put it back onto the agenda. The situation has changed even since the committee's visit. The UK has a forensic science regulator. Although we are not under the auspices of the UK regulator, we are very much exposed to the thinking of that office because, as I have mentioned, the defence visits come to our laboratory - either as oversight for accreditation, or for individual cases. That office recommends very stringent conditions for laboratories producing DNA profiles, conditions we certainly could not comply with in our present environment. There was a proposal some years ago that Forensic Science Ireland be merged with the State Laboratory, an agency of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We would submit that, if rationalisation and efficiencies are sought, it would make far more sense that we work more closely with the agencies I mentioned earlier.

We have strong links with various networks across the country with the European Network of Forensic Science Institutes, ENFSI being the most common one. We work with individual working groups on different topics as well as working with an organisation that is placed across the UK and Ireland. Ongoing co-operation with colleagues also happens, particularly at operational level. Although we are an operational service we cannot survive unless we have some research and development. I said earlier that technology changes are ongoing and there would be little value if we were producing technology of ten years ago, in fact prosecutions would be at risk. I hope from this gallop through the service that the committee gets a sense that the work of the laboratory is not solely laboratory based. There are many related functions - crime scene work or training in relation to same; quality systems which take significant time and resources; the time gap between court cases and examinations puts a strong onus on good record keeping systems; keeping up to date with developmentsboth in terms of knowledge and application of technology; keeping our stakeholders aware of the potential and limitations of the service and of course attendance at court.

Forensic Science Ireland can be both an exciting and a frustrating place to work. Maybe that is true for all public service, but I can only speak for the one I know. Staff are very conscious of their public duty and I am proud to lead a group of people who I believe provide a good service to the State, very much relying on an ethos of science and integrity. By its nature it is a demand-led service. Although we have the service level agreement between FSI and An Garda Síochána, if the work comes in there is an obligation to do it. If our service is not properly resourced there will be a knock-on effect in the whole system. I do not have to tell this committee that the criminal justice system is a very expensive, high resource system. We are a tiny but key part of it. Delays with us, or indeed flaws in our service, will have knock-on effect down the way.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Willis and thank her also for the tour on the day we were with Forensic Science Ireland. My first question is in relation to the casework. It may sound so in the way I articulate the question but I do not mean this in a negative fashion: how many of the cases that FSI presented in court have been discredited or rebutted by the defence or by the other side bringing in their own expert witnesses?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

As I mentioned in my written statement we have visits from defence scientists on average twice a month. Defence teams use their opportunity to review the cases about twice a month. In terms of how many times our cases have been rebutted, in which the Deputy presumably means our evidence was found to be at variance with what they found - I am not aware of any. Arguments certainly arise on different occasions, there is a particularly contentious one at the moment, but I cannot think of any example of where our evidence has been found wanting.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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That is good to know. In terms of upholding and maintaining of standards, does FSI subject itself to peer review from similar, sister agencies in other jurisdictions?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

The ISO17025 accreditation system involves people from other organisations coming in to review the work - so in that respect yes. We do not have any voluntary ongoing system of inviting people in, although I have often wondered about that as a scheme.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Are they organisations outside of this jurisdiction?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

Almost inevitably from outside this jurisdiction because few enough people have the expertise that is necessary in the area we produce. I believe that November was the last time we had a visit. We had two Dutch men, a Swedish woman, a guy from the UK I believe and the local authorising officer.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Is the only and sole customer An Garda Síochána or does the FSI provide -----?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

No, we offer services to the other agencies such as the Military Police, Customs and Excise and to GSOC. We do not get a very high number of cases from any of those agencies, but we are available to work for them. We have also had, in recent times, a slight increase in the number of instances when the State funds the option for the defence to review the work we carry out. It also funds the possibility of additional work which is done primarily outside the State and which is sometimes considered to be not acceptable. In those instances we occasionally do the work on behalf of the defence, if they wanted additional work done.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you.

Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Thank you Chairman. I thank Dr. Willis and Dr. McDermott for coming in and providing the committee with an overview of the operation. I also echo Deputy Collins' remarks about the visit to the laboratory which was an eye-opening experience and which is very beneficial to the committee's work on criminal justice matters. I wish to focus on a couple of issues which Dr. Willis made in her opening remarks, specifically with bricks and mortar and personnel.

Dr. Willis alluded to the fact that the resources available to FSI are somewhat limited and constrained. Therefore, the recruitment of additional staff would be a benefit in terms of reducing waiting times for the processing related to certain crime scenes etc. Is there a lack in regard to the optimal number of professionals within the organisation? The public service moratorium has presumably had an effect on staffing. Is there or has there been an issue in that regard in terms of the ability to perform in a timely manner?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

Yes there is an issue in that we have fewer resources than are necessary to provide the service we have signed up to provide.

In regard to the service level agreement we sign with An Garda Síochána on an annual basis, there are all sorts of excuses as to why things are slower or not delivered, partly due to a number of retirements and resignations from FSI. While I am pleased to say there are plans to fill those positions, the lag-time between the vacancy arising and a person arriving in the door is a problem. Another problem is the amount of training required before that person is of value to us. If I look back on 35 years of work in the laboratory, what I see are gaps or crises every so many years. We have a crisis like we have now, the position is filled and we survive for another while and then there is another crisis. There seems to be no systematic planning for what I consider a necessary ongoing service.

In terms of ideal numbers, we should look at the position in other jurisdictions. Based on what we see elsewhere, Ireland is getting a good value for money service from FSI.

Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Would I be right in assuming that the 96 whole-time equivalent staff operating in the laboratory have a high standard of education, such as PhDs? Clearly, there is a limited pool of available people within the State to fill those roles. Has that been an issue? How many non-Irish persons are operating in FSI?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

We have very few from outside of Ireland. Recruitment has never been an issue. Whenever a job vacancy is advertised, we get a high calibre of applicant and the challenge for us is usually how to cut down the numbers. I do not know how aware the committee is of this, but we produce a high number of good science graduates and sometimes the challenge is what to do with those graduates.

Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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We saw an example of that when we visited and I was quite surprised to see a neighbour of mine there. I had no idea she was working in FSI, so that was a pleasant surprise.

Dr. Willis has spoken about the building and pointed out that the facilities are insufficient or not up to the standards one would expect. Has the Government or has the Department of Justice and Equality, under whose remit FSI operates, planned for or identified precisely the costs involved in constructing a fit for purpose facility for FSI?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

In 2008 or 2009, there was a building at such an advanced stage that the electrical and mechanical portion had already been tendered for before that project was aborted. I believe the cost is not an issue, but given the building was designed at a time of plenty, it may be that such an elaborate building will be scaled back.

The difficulty in regard to the building is similar to the difficulty in regard to staffing in that we get by with what we have, a sticking plaster is applied and then the difficulty arises again. There were various building projects, the most recent of which was the one that was aborted or collapsed in 2009. The 2006 report said the current accommodation was completely inadequate as was the provision of storage and went on to say that plans were at an advanced stage to "build a facility for the laboratory". That phrase could be valid for various times throughout the past 20 years.

Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Was the building Dr. Willis mentioned constructed or partially constructed or was it just a desk-top plan?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

No. There was a building partially constructed for the State Pathologist, but our building had not commenced.

Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I neglected to compliment the Garda Commissioner and her team when she was here, on the successes they have had in regard to drug hauls. FSI will play a significant role in the prosecution of individuals who have been bringing drugs into this country and I want to extend congratulations to it in terms of the work it is doing. I understand FSI is presented with the products as opposed to finding them, but also know it plays a critical role in the prosecution of drug traffickers and I compliment it on that.

Dr. Sheila Willis:

Thank you. I will bring that message back to the staff. There are times when we wish the Garda was not quite so successful.

Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Dr. Willis mentioned the Kopp review in 2006. Is that the most recent review that took place?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

Yes, unless one counts the proposal to merge us with the State Laboratory, which is part of the rationalisation programme.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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FSI is not in favour of that rationalisation and believes this is a better way of doing it.

Dr. Sheila Willis:

That is right.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Does Dr. McDermott wish to add to what has been said?

Dr. Seán McDermott:

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform plan stated in 2012:

Moreover and crucially, the present accommodation for the FSL is inadequate and overcrowded.The present premises have no room for the extra dimension of the Laboratory's work which will be generated by the onset of the national DNA database. It is accepted by the Departments of Justice and Equality and PER that new purpose built premises are required for the FSL.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Will Dr. McDermott make a copy of that available to the committee at some stage? I thank the witnesses for being here today and regret more members were not available to attend. We were intrigued by the visit we made to FSI and will certainly follow up on what has been said once we have reviewed the literature and evidence we have received.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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May I ask a question? In terms of the current building and accommodation, who is responsible for it? Is it up to the OPW to provide accommodation or is FSI itself or the Department responsible for it?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

Essentially the OPW is responsible for accommodation. However, one of the problems in the past was that we tend to fall between the cracks because we are an associated office of the Department of Justice and Equality, we are housed in Garda headquarters and we tend to be a somewhat independent unit. Perhaps there is a lack of clarity as to whose responsibility we are, but the OPW has responsibility for the building we are in and had taken responsibility for the new building. However, prior to that there was some dispute or discussion as to who should fund it.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We may look into that also.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Having seen the accommodation FSI works in, I suggest the committee should write to the Minister and OPW and note its dissatisfaction with the current accommodation.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Where was the new proposed building to be sited?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

At Backweston, near Celbridge, where there are already State laboratories located - the Food Safety Authority and the agricultural laboratories. It is quite a big science campus.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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It struck me that when FSI was in Garda headquarters it had a certain security.

Dr. Sheila Willis:

That is certainly something that kept us in Garda headquarters in the early days, particularly when the Northern Ireland laboratory was destroyed by an explosion. The strong view then was that we should be in Garda headquarters. One of the projects in which I played a part was to build of a facility within Garda headquarters, but that was aborted for various reasons.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That begs another question.

Would a facility at Backweston be as secure as where Forensic Science Ireland is at the moment or would it be specifically built to be secure?

Dr. Sheila Willis:

The OPW was building it with security in mind because there was a recognition of what was required. When the committee visited, members saw the kind of materials we house, which are not ones to leave lying around on a counter somewhere. One of the reasons the previous project was delayed was that a decision was made to move the Garda Technical Bureau also. A planning application was made to Kildare County Council for an entire complex to house the two organisations.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will certainly follow that up. I thank Dr. Willis for being present and for accommodating us on our recent visit. As Dr. Willis outlined, she falls between the cracks in that she does extraordinarily valuable work very quietly and almost below the radar. She is on our radar now and we will do what we can to assist.

Dr. Sheila Willis:

Thank you very much, Chairman. I also thank members.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will suspend for a few moments as we have one more item of business to attend to. The Minister of State, Deputy Dara Murphy, is due before the committee to discuss a European motion that needs to be addressed. It should not take long.