John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are in public session. Are the minutes of the meeting of 26 February 2015 agreed? Agreed. Are there any matters arising from the minutes?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we address the HSBC issue? We have had a reply from them.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have had a reply, which is in the correspondence, to the extent that the Irish office does not have the information to hand on the issue. Representatives are willing to attend but do not have information.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Were we not meant to contact the London office?

Clerk to the Committee:

Arising from the Chairman's request, I contacted the London office and I got a phone call late yesterday evening when I came back from Belfast to say that the reason the banks' representatives appeared before the UK Public Accounts Committee is that its headquarters is in the UK. It did not mean any disrespect to this committee but it does not have any information. That is the gist of the information they gave me. The letter they sent says they are not in possession of records with regard to this matter.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is this from the Dublin office?

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes, and the bank is headquartered in London. That is why the bank attended the Public Accounts Committee in London.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is a flimsy excuse to give for not coming in. From what the Chairman said, we can take up the offer to attend. Are they willing to come in?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The letter says that they are willing and that they would send representatives but they do not know how helpful their representatives could be. If the individual in London was helpful to the Public Accounts Committee in the UK, surely they can provide information via him that is of interest here. If it is the wish of members, we can get back to HSBC in Dublin and in the headquarters and suggest they send to the meeting of the PAC someone who has some briefing material.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We want to get the right guy so they can nominate the guy. They will know who has the information and we do not.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is strange to see how some in Dublin can say they have no relevant information or documents. Surely HSBC is a single organisation with different branches and structures. If there were so many Irish HSBC accounts in the Swiss section, surely there is some procedure between the bank's offices here and the bank's offices there. There must be something about the process under which they operate. Under any circumstances, we should invite them to come in here even if they say they have no relevant documentation. They are bound to have useful material about how they operate.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We should ask them in and take them up on the offer to come in. Let us not beat around the bush. We can ask them questions directly. If the representative comes back and says that he does not have the information, we will make our minds up then.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There may be separate entities within HSBC, but before getting into that, we should write to Mr. Duffy again and to the individual who appeared before the Public Accounts Committee in the UK and ask if someone can be briefed who can assist us with our efforts with the Revenue Commissioners. That would be helpful. A representative should be here.

The next item, No. 3A, is correspondence from Accounting Officers or Ministers. No. 3A.1 is correspondence, dated 4 March 2015, from Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It is a follow-up from our meeting of 5 February 2015 and is to be noted and published. This correspondence was received yesterday but, as it relates to issues that may arise at today’s meeting, it is included in today’s correspondence. We can use the correspondence to raise the issue in a later session with the Department.

We also have individual correspondence received since the meeting of Thursday, 26 February 2015, the first being correspondence from Mr. William Treacy regarding ongoing issues with Horse Racing Ireland, the second from Mr. Mairtin O’Riordain, Gaelscoil Charraig na Siuire, regarding costs of rents, which is to be noted, published and forwarded to the Department of Education and Skills for a note on the matters raised. We will indicate that to the writer.

No. 3B.3 is correspondence, dated 19 February, received from the Office of the Commissioner for An Garda Síochána, regarding St. Paul's Garda Medical Aid Society, to be noted and published. A copy will be forwarded to Mr. Michael Keane. It is noted that previous correspondence from Mr. Keane was up on our website. Having discussed it, and the Garda Síochána having reached its conclusion, we can take it down as a public document.

No. 3B.4 is correspondence received from Mr. Eamonn Howard regarding Howth Fisheries Centre. This is to be noted and we will include the issue in our upcoming report. We are awaiting a reply from the Department on the extent of vacant properties, and a reminder should issue to the Department as it is holding up our report. Given what we saw in Howth and reports from our last committee meeting, we must highlight this and get a response from the Department. I would have expected greater efficiency in reply from the Department. We should remind it that it is holding up the work of the Committee of Public Accounts and it is not right that the Department should do so. We must get the information together. Otherwise, we can have a further hearing on the matter and members would not mind sitting on a Tuesday to have the hearing. We will be further delayed by this Department and we should not stand for these delays any longer.

No. 3B.5 is correspondence, dated 23 February 2015, received from Mr. Aidan Horan regarding access to NAMA contracts. This is to be noted and forwarded to NAMA for a note on the matters raised. Is this the big briefing document we received from an individual?

Clerk to the Committee:

No, that was a one-page letter about building houses in Castleknock.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is making the point about the distortion in the market because of the activities of NAMA. We will ask NAMA for a response. We will deal next with documents relating to today’s committee meeting. Nos. 3C.1 and 3C.7 are the briefing documents and opening statements for today’s meeting, to be noted and published. Of the reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting of 26 February, No. 4.1 concerns the Travellers protection fund and No. 4.2 concerns Ordnance Survey Ireland. These accounts are to be noted. The work programme is now on screen.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General can throw some light on the report yesterday about the HSE. The Taoiseach referred to it in the Dáil when he said people should pay back the money involved. The Comptroller and Auditor General produced a draft report, which was leaked to Senators, and it showed a large lack of control in the HSE, overspending on expenses and people being overpaid and the money not being paid back. These are merely samples of what the Comptroller and Auditor General produced in a draft report. He sent it back to the HSE and somehow it leaked. It is something we should interest ourselves in.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

At the end of each audit of a set of financial statements, the staff at my office prepare a report for the management, bring to its attention control issues, control weaknesses and matters we consider management is required to address and where it needs to make changes to the control systems as necessary.

The procedure in general is that the points raised by us are put to management and we ask it for a response. We require it to go on record as to what it will do about these issues. They are incorporated in the management letter and it is then formally sent to the chief executive officer of the HSE, as in this case. It stands then as a record between us of actions we require.

In a subsequent financial audit, we would look at the actions it has undertaken to take to see whether it actually made the changes it committed to make. In the normal way, that document would not be published. It is not published by us. If there was a control weakness which we felt was important and it was not addressed in a timely way, I could then reflect on it and consider that a report should be published and action taken. That is basically the origin of the document. As I understand it, the material that came into the public domain was a draft being prepared by it to respond to our recommendations. It is not a complete document from its side. There is quite a bit of material there and not everything has the same weight or importance but certainly there are issues on which we felt action was required from it and we would expect to see that action undertaken.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the Comptroller and Auditor General seen the document?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I have scanned it.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I saw it last night and it seems that it reflects very badly on the HSE. It has a column called "rankings" and it is low in a number of very key areas.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The rankings would be rankings we would provide. We would determine whether something is a high priority, a medium priority or a low priority.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The control flaws in various areas are quite serious, are they not?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They are weaknesses and where there is a weakness, there is obviously scope for loss to arise. It may not have happened yet, but we are trying to draw it to its attention so it can make changes that would avert any losses. If we find in any of those areas that a loss has actually occurred, we would certainly require it to draw attention to it in its statement of internal financial control and to disclose there has been a loss. However, in the normal way where it is just a weakness, we bring it to its attention and require it to address it before a loss can occur.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not just talking about losses. We are talking about extravagance and lack of controls. We are not necessarily talking about losses. Are we just talking about controls?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is a variety of issues. Generally a management letter will focus on controls but controls can include controls which should ward off circumstances where there is extravagance.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How does the Comptroller and Auditor General do this? Does he do this by sampling?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes. If we are looking at travel and subsistence, for example, we look at a sample and may identify problems in the sample. It could be that we would look at 20 samples and find difficulties with one. In the greater scheme of things and given the expenditure of the HSE, some overexpenditure in a travel and subsistence area is not that significant in terms of its overall budget but it is something that would have a reputational risk for the HSE. We try to ensure it is aware of what is expected in terms of using travel and subsistence expenditure in an appropriate manner.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Maybe I am wrong but it looks that in sampling, the Comptroller and Auditor General found in one case it was €2.9 million of overpayments, of which €1.4 million had not been paid back. Is that correct?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not have the details.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was just found in a sample.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I think that might be a full analysis of payroll.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Some of the others would be just-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Some would be analytic-based where one would look at the full database. In other cases, one would be drawing samples.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Chairman, I suggest we bring in the HSE and ask it a few questions about this. It is now in the public domain and I think we should ask the HSE about it.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will come back to that suggestion.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Arising from what the Comptroller and Auditor General told us, what he is outlining is a process which is ongoing where he has provided certain documentation. He has asked the HSE for a response to that documentation. It is its response that has come into the public domain rather than the documentation he submitted to it. Have both come into the public domain?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, because what we provide it with is a template and we require it to respond to each point. The first three or four columns are ours and then its response is in the final column, but it is still only a draft, or a work in progress, on its side.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was it the intention that the Comptroller and Auditor General would bring that to our attention in a report at some stage?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No. That was not the intention.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was not going to see the light of day with this committee.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No, I would not expect it to. What we do when we prepare the management letter is to create a record of our engagement with the HSE in relation to the 2013 financial statements, as in this case. The higher level issues or higher priority issues we identify in that letter have already been brought to the attention of the audit committee in the HSE. When the report is finalised, it will be with the audit committee and we will explain to it our concerns and then it would work with HSE management to ensure that the weaknesses were addressed.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not clear how that would work out but very substantial issues have come into the public domain. If there is a mechanism for us to bring this to the attention of the committee and to bring in the HSE, I think we should pursue that.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I refer to the note we received in regard to a different issue. Does the Chairman want to bring it up now or will he wait?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will bring it up in the context of this issue. The documents were released yesterday. They could have been released in error or for any reason but the history of the HSE and the Committee of Public Accounts has been that we have often had hearings and while people from the HSE have been with us, documents would be released to the newspapers. There is more than one example of that. Now that this issue is in the public domain, we need to understand why it happened. Some Senators and other people had this document yesterday but we still have not been provided with it out of courtesy in order that we would know what is in it. Luckily enough, we were meeting today and the Comptroller and Auditor General explained it.

I want to tie what has happened into a note members received this morning. Members received the note this morning simply because a big document was presented to me and I gave it to the clerk, about which I informed the committee a number of weeks ago. This document shows where contracts were awarded without any tender. They were awarded to former employees of the HSE who are now acting outside of the HSE in an independent business. In more than one instance, these contracts were awarded without a competitive tender and in one case at least a report was prepared at a cost of €98,374.23. That report was reviewed by another company at a cost of €58,216.41 to date. This is all happening between HSE and companies outside of the HSE which happen to employ former employees of the HSE.

It is alleged in the document that in one instance the Health Service Executive is recommending former staff to section 39 bodies where investigations are needed, at a cost of €1,000 per day. In light of the information that emerged in the public domain yesterday and the allegations made in the note circulated by the clerk to the committee, which is a summary of the information in the larger document, we should have representatives of the HSE come before the committee sooner rather than later.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The most worrying element of this information is the potential conflict of interest that arises. Having recently dealt with two or three cases involving sexual or physical abuse of people in care, I find it very worrying that someone who may be contracted by the HSE could potentially have a conflict of interest. One of the tasks of the committee will be to ascertain how widespread is the practice of not tendering contracts and employing former HSE staff to do various jobs and carry out investigations.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not know if the HSE will even forward to the committee the document that was inadvertently released. Perhaps we need to ask some of our Seanad colleagues to provide us with a copy. We should also ask the HSE to provide a copy.

I agree that representatives of the HSE should come before the committee. I note they are scheduled to appear on 2 April, which is four weeks from now and perhaps a little too long a period to wait. Would it be possible to re-jig the agenda and have the HSE appear sooner? Will members be given the full dossier?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The document is so large, we chose not to circulate copies but members may have copies.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are clearly two elements to the document. The first is the unhealthy, cosy insider relationship between entities that are contracting for business, while the second relates to an allegation or allegations of sexual abuse, how these allegations are pursued, the structure of investigations and so forth. Not having seen the dossier, I am not sure whether I should be more concerned about the issues related to procurement and tendering or the suggestion that there may have been malpractice involved in pursuing complaints of abuse. The committee will have to consider how we can advance this issue.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

While both issues are extremely serious, the issue with which the committee must concern itself is the procurement of services and the background to same, as outlined by the clerk to the committee. As Deputy Deasy stated, we must determine if the practice is widespread. The other issues have been reported under the whistleblower’s legislation as they are matters for the Garda. That is the position.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I concur with Deputy Deasy on the importance of ascertaining how widespread are the practices highlighted in the document. Is this an isolated incident or are complaints in respect of vulnerable adults, children and others being investigated in a similar fashion? Members are at a loss because we do not have access to the information that is available to the media. The Health Service Executive has a responsibility to ensure that people who approach it are treated with dignity. The scant information available to us suggests there are serious questions to be asked.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the basis of members’ comments, I will ask the representatives of the HSE to appear before the committee sooner rather than later. The clerk will contact the HSE to arrange a meeting. It may be necessary to arrange it outside the dates set out in our work programme.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many of the contracts awarded by the HSE in the past ten years went to former staff? That is the simple question we should put to the HSE in the meantime. We could then take the matter from there. That is an easy question that can be answered immediately.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will proceed on the basis that the sooner we can have representatives of the HSE before us, the better.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need to find out if certain contracts were tendered.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are there any other questions on the work programme? We have provided clarity on next week’s meeting. St. Patrick’s Day falls in the following week and we will meet representatives of the Dublin Docklands Development Authority on 26 March. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I will comment briefly on yesterday's meeting with the Northern Ireland Public Accounts Committee, which was interesting, productive and worthwhile in cross-Border terms. It was also good to have the Comptroller and Auditor General from both jurisdictions give a report on a cross-Border project that resulted in a loss of €4.3 million to the authorities North and South. Many issues arising from this project must be addressed through public hearings of the Committees of Public Accounts, North and South. One of the issues that stood out was that €1.3 million was spent on equipment valued at €30,000 that was almost obsolete. This gives a flavour of the extent of the problem with the project in question. While it was initially to be funded by the European Union, it was ultimately funded by the Governments in both jurisdictions and some substantial payments were made without any paperwork being provided. The end result of the project was to be a cross-Border fibre optic cable and broadband service. There is a question as to whether some of the cable was already in the ground. The company that tendered for the project had a profit of €30,000 on a turnover of €500,000 and one director and other internal entities were trading with each other and drew down money in a highly questionable project. We agreed yesterday that the two clerks would liaise and set a date for two separate hearings, one in the North on 18 March and a second in this jurisdiction shortly thereafter. Can the report be circulated?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It was circulated electronically this week.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was the full report circulated?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is an interesting report which members should read because it indicates how the Department functions. As with the Health Service Executive, one wonders how many of the regulations and agreements on procurement and spending of taxpayers’ money are ignored, resulting in the making of these types of payments. The committee should do this job of work as soon as possible.

Members have been circulated yesterday with a draft report on wards of court. I ask to contact the clerk directly if they have any amendments.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have only had an initial read of the report as we only received it yesterday.

My initial reaction is that families I have been dealing with will regard it as fairly weak and defensive of the status quo.However, I want to read it again and perhaps I will talk to some families who have seen what they regarded as adequate provision for their loved ones whittled away to almost nothing or substantially less than is required for the care of that person over the duration of his or her lifetime. This is a desperate situation for people to find themselves in. I do not necessarily suggest that we are the people to remedy that, but given the circumstances, we should be saying something that points beyond that the HSE should look at adequacy of services and so on. That sounds a little pat from the point of view of families of wards of court. We can bring forward amendments to this, but is there a particular timeframe for dealing with the issue? When do we propose to complete, agree and launch the report?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think members have time to come back directly to the clerk with whatever amendments they have or with whatever strengthening of language they see necessary in the report. Perhaps then, after St. Patrick's week, we can launch the report.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In regard to recommendations to government and the regulation that the Government should reply to recommendations within 60 days, does this apply to recommendations made by the Committee of Public Accounts? Does it happen that the committee gets a mandatory reply from the Government?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It does happen. We get the reply, but we do not necessarily get it as speedily as the Deputy has described. We get a reply and can remind the Government of the need for an early reply whenever we deem that necessary. We get an overview of the Government's position on the issue.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand an audit of this process is outside the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General, but who audits it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

A private audit firm is appointed by the High Court.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What level of access does the Comptroller and Auditor General have to that audit?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not have access to it.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is quite astonishing. Deputy McDonald's comments on the report are key and we should emphasise them.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those recommendations are in the report.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I saw that. However, the anomaly is significant, particularly in light of the losses incurred. Is it the case there were very significant losses from the investments? How was this benchmarked?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We had a full meeting on this and all of this information resulted from that. This information informs the background to the report and from that we have drawn up the recommendations. This is only a draft report. Members may want to read the report again and take advantage of the week or more we have left to deal with the matter and then send their submissions to the clerk.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who are the certified auditors on this?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I cannot remember offhand, but it is one of the larger firms.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I compliment the Chairman on his work on this.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there any other business? As there is no other business, we will agree our meeting for Thursday, 12 March at which we will have presentations from the Revenue Commissioners and HSBC. I will ask the clerk to report to committee members on the availability of the delegate from HSBC and on what we can expect, so that members are briefed before the meeting.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, can the Chairman repeat that please?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask the clerk to ensure members are aware of the response from the HSBC and the extent of the information the delegate will have, so that we are clear in regard to what information can be gleaned through questions.

In regard to the HSE, we should get representatives in as soon as possible. If that is to happen next week, we will sit on Tuesday. The matter is in the public domain and because the HSE caused it to happen, we need an explanation. They will be told we are available to meet them on Tuesday or Wednesday.

We will now deal with the first part of today's meeting at which we will have presentations from the Small Firms Association and the Irish Schools Arts Supply Federation. Then at noon, we will consider the Comptroller and Auditor General's Appropriation Accounts 2013 for Vote 11 - the Office of the Minister of Public Expenditure and Reform, Vote 12 - superannuation and retirement allowances, Vote 18 - shared services, and then the Comptroller and Auditor General' special report on the effectiveness of audit committees in State bodies, and then issues with procurement.