Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The select committee is in public session. I welcome the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, the Minister of State with responsibility for skills, research and innovation, Deputy Damien English, and the Department officials. We are here to consider the 2015 Revised Estimates for Public Services at the Department of Education and Skills - Vote 26. The timetable for the meeting has been circulated. It allows for a very brief opening statement by the Minister followed by a discussion of each programme listed in the Estimate with 20 minutes allocated for the discussion of each programme. Is the timetable agreed? Agreed. I invite the Minister to make her opening statement and ask her to try to keep it under the ten minutes allocated, if possible.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the 2015 Estimate with the committee. My officials provided some background briefing material for the committee, so I propose to keep this opening statement brief. However, I am happy, together with Minister of State, Deputy English, to provide further details as we work our way through the various programmes that make up the Estimate.

Expenditure in 2015 is set against the background of an improving overall economic situation. I fully appreciate the sacrifices that all education partners have made in recent years and their commitment to provide quality education against a very difficult financial backdrop and continuing upward demographic pressures. It is my intention that the improving economic situation will pay a very real dividend to education, an investment that has enormous economic and social benefits.

The 2015 Estimate for my Department is a start in that process. The net voted sum proposed for the Department for 2015 is just over €8,012 million, made up of current expenditure of €7,447 million and capital expenditure of €565 million. This is a 0.8% increase compared to 2014. In addition to voted expenditure, there is a non-voted allocation in 2015 of €362 million in current expenditure under the national training fund. The fund is financed by a national training fund levy paid by employers.

Gross current expenditure for my Department in 2015 will represent 17% of total gross Government spending. Of this, €6.44 billion, or over 80% of my Department's gross current allocation, will be spent on pay and superannuation costs. This is not surprising given that some 96,000, or one third of all public service employees, are found in the education sector. The superannuation bill, which covers retirement lump sum payments as well as ongoing pension costs, will provide for a total of some 44,200 pensioners by the end of 2015.

My priority in 2015 was to secure additional funding to maintain class sizes, ensure that the education system can recruit more permanent teachers, and provide the expanding numbers of children at school with the education they deserve. To this end, an additional €57 million over the 2014 gross allocation is being invested to meet growing numbers of children starting school in 2015. It is projected that an additional 13,000 pupils will be enrolled in schools next year. This additional funding will go towards providing for approximately 900 new classroom teachers, 480 new resource teachers and 220 new special needs assistant, SNA, posts. This is a total of some 1,700 new posts. These additional posts will mean that, by the end of 2015, there will be some 63,600 teachers and 11,330 SNAs in our schools.

I am also providing funding to continue the important reform agenda in education. An additional €13 million is being provided in 2015 to continue with the literacy and numeracy strategy, junior cycle reform, music generation and the recruitment of ten new preschool inspectors. A further €3 million is also being made available to fund the provision of high-speed broadband in post-primary schools. I am also providing, from the capital budget, the second tranche of €5 million in a three-year additional investment in school book funding for primary schools.

Our investment in the literacy and numeracy strategy 2011-2020 is beginning to bear fruit, as evidenced by the significant improvements announced in the recent report on the 2014 National Assessments of English Reading and Mathematics. This report was prepared by the Educational Research Centre in Drumcondra. The report found that overall performance in reading and mathematics in second and sixth classes was significantly higher in these assessments than in the 2009 assessments. These are the first significant improvements recorded by the national assessments in over 30 years. In 2014, there was a reduction in the proportion of lower-achieving pupils and an increase in the proportion of higher-achieving pupils in both English reading and mathematics compared to 2009.

I am particularly pleased that the 2015 financial allocation will allow for the immediate recruitment of a new team of early childhood education inspectors. This new team will work with the early childhood sector to promote and enhance good educational practice. This initiative is being driven in partnership with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy James Reilly, and I appreciate his support for this reforming measure.

I will also be restoring €25 million in funding to the higher education institutions which previously had been withheld in 2013 and 2014.

Changes have been made to the tranching of payments under the student grant scheme. Students who are entitled to grants will, from 2015-16, receive four months of maintenance payments before the end of December and the balance of five months payments in the following year. This is a change to the current arrangement whereby only three months payments are made before the end of December and six months payments are made the following year. The change takes account of requests to alleviate financial difficulties being experienced by students due to the fact that the academic year now starts earlier in many higher education institutions.

From the 2015-16 academic year, payments to the higher education institutions, in respect of the student contribution for those students receiving student grants, will be paid in two instalments, in December 2015 and January 2016, rather than in one single instalment in December, as was previously the case. This arrangement will mirror the arrangement for payments to the higher education institutions under the free fees initiative. There will, however, be no change to the total amount of student contribution payments in respect of the 2015-16 year, nor in any subsequent year.

The Government is fully committed to renewing and significantly expanding the apprenticeship system in Ireland. SOLAS is projecting nearly 3,000 new apprentices this year, more than double the rate seen in 2012. An additional €10 million is being allocated through the national training fund to ensure that our current apprentices get the most up-to-date training in their specialist areas. By the summer, I am also looking forward to receiving the report of the recently established Apprenticeship Council, chaired by Pat O'Doherty.

This report will pave the way for new types of apprenticeship to be developed by the end of the year. The Minister of State, Deputy English, is working in that area.

Savings measures from previous budgets will impact in 2015. This year will see the implementation of the final phase of three savings measures from previous budgets, including a €250 increase in the student contribution to €3,000 per annum, the final 1% reduction in pay and non-pay funding for the third-level sector and a 1% reduction in capitation payments in schools and further education.

My Department's €568 million gross capital expenditure allocation for 2015 will be used mainly in the ongoing delivery of the five-year 2012-16 school building programme. This involves 275 major school building projects and an additional 80,000 school places to meet continuing demographic increases. Moreover, to maintain the necessary infrastructure in existing schools, 28 school building projects were included under the 2013 stimulus package and a further 16 projects have been included in the 2015 building programme. A total of 70 school projects are scheduled to commence construction this year as part of the five-year plan. This will deliver 27,800 permanent school places, of which 23,700 are additional places. The projects will support 3,000 direct jobs and 500 indirect jobs. These projects include 44 new schools and 11 extensions at primary level, five new schools and eight extensions at second level and two new special schools. Including these 70 school projects, a total of 196 major school projects now have approval to advance to construction, representing a significant investment by any measure.

Funding is contained in the capital allocation for investment in the devolved additional accommodation scheme as well. Under this scheme, my Department considers applications on an ongoing basis from individual schools for funding to meet an immediate accommodation requirement because of increased enrolments and where an additional teacher is being appointed. Under the Department's prefab replacement initiative, approval has been given for 209 primary schools and eight post-primary schools to replace 614 prefab units with permanent accommodation. Of the total 217 approved school projects, 155 have been completed and a further 21 are on site. In addition to the prefab replacement initiatives, prefab accommodation continues to be replaced with permanent structures on an ongoing basis as part of the Department's large-scale school building programme.

Spending of more than €70 million was approved for the 2014 summer works scheme. This allowed more than 770 schools throughout the country to undertake improvement works to improve their physical infrastructure. The spending has allowed for the funding of applications received under categories 1 to 6. Schools that applied under categories 7 to 10 were advised that their applications would be retained for prioritisation if funding for further summer works projects could be secured for 2015. The feasibility of making further funding available to facilitate consideration of these applications is currently being considered.

Primary schools are also benefitting in the 2014-15 school year from the payment of the minor works grant. The €28.5 million made available to schools in December will enable these schools to undertake small-scale repair works without the need to interact with the Department.

Within the higher education sector, projects are under way at DIT Grangegorman, University of Limerick and NUI Galway as well as minor works funding for the institutes of technology.

I do not intend to go into any further detail of my Department's Estimate at this stage but I would be happy, together with the Minister of State, Deputy English, to respond to any matters raised by committee members. I commend the Revised Estimates to the committee.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will go through the programmes, starting with programme A, which relates to first, second and early years education. I ask members to keep their remarks brief and stick to programme A.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is this dealing with primary and preschool education?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is described as first, second and early years education in the Department's briefing document.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are the summer works scheme and the minor works grant covered under this programme?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are covered later in the capital programmes.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is all listed. The list includes administration, primary teacher salaries, secondary teacher salaries, grants to education and training boards re vocational teacher salaries, special needs assistant salaries, school non-teaching staff salaries, school transport, grants to schools, grants to primary and post-primary educational bodies, teacher education and so on.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy O'Brien might take it up. I need to print a copy of the document. I did not have it coming in the door.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Capitation grants come under this programme. We expect a further 1% reduction this year in the capitation grant. This was announced previously. I understand this will cost in the region of €2.1 million. There has been an increase in the demographic and I understand 14,000 extra students will come into the system this year. Is it possible to ascertain what the figure would be if the 1% reduction had not taken place, in the light of an increased student population? I am trying to get that figure. I gather from reading the Estimates that providing for the extra 14,000 students will cost approximately €6.4 million in increased capitation costs. However, we are offsetting that with the 1% reduction of €2.1 million. Does this suggest that if we were not reducing the capitation grant by 1% there would be a cost of €8.5 million, given the increase in the demographics? Is that correct?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will I answer now or wait?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does anyone else have questions on programme A?

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Unfortunately, I am in the same boat as Deputy McConalogue. I missed the printout of that document. What section is the capital programme under?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is programme D.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will reply directly to Deputy O'Brien. He is correct. The figure is €8.5 million. The saving is actually €3.3 million, but we bring in the demographics as well.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us consider some of the outputs. There is reference to providing targeted support and services to schools and children with special educational needs, particularly resource teaching and learning supports. There is also a reference to providing other supports to pupils with special educational needs. What types of support, if not resource teaching and learning supports, are in question?

Another issue I am keen to raise under this programme is the national educational psychological service. This is something I raised with the Minister yesterday. I recognise that under this Government the number of NEPS psychologists has increased, and that is to be welcomed. The Department set out a target in the region of 273 NEPS psychologists, if I recall correctly. I am trying to ascertain how many NEPS psychologists are actually in the system. I know several are out on maternity leave and some are out sick, but they are not replaced. What is the exact number of NEPS psychologists currently available to schools? The target is to ensure that every school will have access to a NEPS psychologist. Will we actually meet that target in 2015? I know that in 2014 not every school had access to a NEPS psychologist.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy O'Brien raised the issue of NEPS psychologists yesterday during Question Time. He indicated, as did I, that there was an increase in numbers. He asked about the position for people who were out sick and so on. I do not actually have that information and I will have to come back to him on that. Deputy O'Brien will appreciate that this information is changing constantly.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it envisaged that every school will have access to a NEPS psychologist in 2015?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, it is.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How will the pilot project for NEPS psychologists that is being rolled out change the way we allocate resources? Where does that fit in? One of the biggest criticisms I hear from principals arises when they have several children who they believe are in need of an assessment by a NEPS psychologist. Some schools with limited access to a psychologist are being forced to limit the number of children they can put forward for assessment.

There could be a number of students within a school who the teacher might feel would benefit from an assessment that would provide a diagnosis that would allow them get resources, but because the school does not have access to a NEPS psychologist, it can only put forward one or two students rather than an unlimited number. How are we going to address this issue? One school I am dealing with in Cork would like to be able to send six or seven students who it feels have a learning difficulty for assessment by a NEPS psychologist, but because the school has limited access to a psychologist, it will probably only succeed in getting assessments for two, or possibly three, this year. This means three or four students will not have an assessment, leading to a delay in diagnosis and in targeting resources at those students. How can we overcome this situation? Some parents will have to get private assessments done, but these cost approximately €400. Will the new model and the pilot project to be rolled out address some of those issues?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In terms of the numbers, the target is to assign a NEPS psychologist to all ordinary national and second level schools in the 2014-2015 school year. The target number of psychologists is 173, and there are currently 168 employed. A panel is in place and the Public Appointments Service is currently working through the appointment process to bring the number employed to 173.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand the figure is even less than 168, because a number of people are out on maternity leave.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will provide further information on that. We have seconded a number of teachers to NEPS recently, to cover maternity leave absences. These teachers have the necessary qualifications and expertise to deliver the service. Obviously, they are teachers rather than psychologists, but we are doing something to fill that gap.

On the new model, we are working currently on how to design the pilot and are engaged with the National Council for Special Education, education research centres and so on to design a meaningful pilot. As soon as that is done, we will publish the information and invite schools to participate. I felt it was not appropriate to introduce the new model for September because we did not have the information on complex needs from the HSE and did not have enough time to respond to the concerns of schools. That is the reason we are introducing a pilot, and we will have the information on that as soon as the work is completed.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I commend the Department on the literacy and numeracy strategy, which has been a success. Recent reports indicate that we are seeing an improvement in that area. This is money well spent, but how much is being provided for next year in terms of rolling out that strategy? Also, the evaluation of DEIS schools is due to be completed and reported to the Department this year. If the implementation of recommendations in that report requires increased funding or resources, will that be made available?

I do not know if the Minister has the answer to my final question, but if not she can come back to me on it. My question concerns emergency funding for capital works.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That relates to the capital budget.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will come back to that later, so.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree that the update on the numeracy and literacy was very good news and demonstrated the first significant improvement in many years. As a result, and because we have already reached the targets for 2020, I have brought forward the review of the strategy, and that will happen this year. I want to focus on areas in which we need to make further progress, particularly DEIS schools. While DEIS schools did improve, the gap between such schools and regular schools has not narrowed sufficiently. Therefore, the review of the strategy will focus on DEIS schools.

In regard to the DEIS report, I was speaking to the official working on that report this morning when I met with youngballymun in the Department. We were looking at what youngballymun is doing in regard to literacy and numeracy. The report is nearly ready, but it has not yet come to me. I assume we will have to make a case for increased funding when we receive the report, but I have not seen it yet.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can I make general remarks across the programmes?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, not at this time.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will that be allowed at all?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy can make those comments at the end.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have another question. I suppose we cannot move away from this programme without talking about junior cycle reform. We are looking at the roll-out of the science programme in 2015 and there is obviously a funding issue in that regard. I know money has been set aside by the Department for the roll-out of junior cycle reform. Does the Minister want to make a general comment on the current position? We are well aware of the report that has been put forward but has not been accepted by the teaching unions and of the Minister's stance on it. Does she want to say anything in regard to how we make progress from here?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the Deputy knows, I was very disappointed that the leaders of the teaching unions did not accept the independent recommendations of Mr. Travers. The Deputy mentioned the roll-out of the science programme. One of recommendations made by Mr. Travers was that we should delay the roll-out of that programme. I am willing to accept that recommendation as part of the totality of his report. Elements of his report were challenging to me as well as to the teaching unions. We are going to go ahead with the reform of the junior cycle and I hope there will be re-engagement on behalf of the unions, but it must be on the basis of Mr. Travers's recommendations. There are other issues and we can engage on them if and when the unions come back into discussions.

My officials have already met with the other partners in education and we are going to have an information session towards the end of March to explain how the roll-out will happen and what the next steps will be. We have also put online the continuous professional development for teachers. We want to engage with teachers on the implementation of the reforms. The English teachers are those who are directly involved currently, since the English programme has started. I am anxious to engage with teachers of English to ensure they get the continuous professional development available to them so that they are confident, when the time comes, to make assessments. That will not come for another year, so we have a good period of time still in which to work with teachers and all of the partners in education. I hope to see some consideration from the teaching unions in regard to what is on the table.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Minister saying that in order to progress this issue, the teaching unions must accept the Travers recommendations?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The understanding when Mr. Travers was appointed and when he made his recommendations was that they would be the basis for agreement and that we could engage in further discussion on their implementation. I am happy to do that, but it must be on the basis that the central recommendations, such as the suspension of industrial action and some element of assessment in the classroom, are on the table. Elements I would not necessarily have proposed are also part of it. The recommendations cannot be the basis of further negotiations and must be the basis of agreement.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will move on now to the next programme, programme B - skills development. This covers grants to SOLAS for administration and training, grants and supports, European Social Fund and European Globalisation Adjustment Fund supports, grants to SOLAS for further education and training activities, grants to Quality and Qualifications Ireland, superannuation payable to former FÁS, SOLAS and AnCO staff, and miscellaneous grants and services. Are there any questions on those issues?

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Obviously, this whole area has been completely transformed in recent years. We have seen some progressive legislation in terms of the establishment of SOLAS and the ETBs by the Minister of State's predecessor. I do not expect to see the benefits of those three pieces of legislation to establish QQI, the education and training boards and SOLAS for a number of years. There is no doubt it was radical and reforming legislation which will benefit this whole area. In 2015, we will see the roll-out of the national strategy for SOLAS and apprenticeships coming on board. I presume the Department will put in place the necessary funding and resources to ensure we can maximise on the establishment of SOLAS. I do not know if the Minister of State wants to speak about the number of people SOLAS is hoping to take on. I think we are talking in terms of 70,000.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The number will be 72,000 in training.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is slightly up on 2014 figures when there were 71,000 in training. I would appreciate an update on the implementation of that strategy. Perhaps he would speak about each of the individual programmes such as MOMENTUM, Skillnets and Springboard and the targets for those schemes in 2015?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with the Deputy that there has been a major reform in this area in the past couple of years. There is no doubt about the long-term benefits. We should try to move as quickly as we can to benefit from them now. Much reform also took place in 2014 and there were budget changes because of all the reallocations to the different centres. It is important to use the reform structures as quickly as possible and benefit from them. We hope to use all the reform structures and I think we are in a position to do that and introduce the changes needed. We must become, at ETB level, enterprise based and engage with enterprise when it comes to skills development. That is what we are trying to do as best we can.

The number of people who will benefit from all the formal education and training through SOLAS is about 340,000 but the total number of places is about 270,000. The number of people in training in SOLAS is 72,000. We are matching demand but we must ensure they acquire the skills they need. We are trying to link with the full education and training strategy and the service plans with the ETBs to ensure it is relevant and all the courses and the training are relevant and will lead to a further career or further education.

There are 6,000 places on the MOMENTUM programme this year, including 2,000 places for those under 25 years of age. The Skillnets programme will support 8,000 education and training places for the unemployed. Skillnets made another call recently. I attended its launch and likewise it is trying to engage in a partnership with enterprise. Springboard made its call a few weeks ago to close at the end of March, if I remember correctly, to provide 5,200 places and 900 full-time ICT skills conversion courses. The pressure is on to increase the number of people coming through with ICT qualifications. Skillnets will also support an additional 32,000 training places for those in employment and will continue to increase the number of training days. We are seeking to provide longer courses. Given the increase in the number of days, courses are generally longer. Skillnets is in charge of ManagementWorks. The training network programme will ensure a wider target market is reached by the programme. Given that we are using the national training fund which has been contributed to by employers, we are trying to ensure the management training works scheme reflects their needs also.

It is estimated that there were up to 3,000 new registrations for 2015 for the existing apprenticeships. As the Deputy is aware, we are reforming the existing apprenticeship scheme. There is an agreed mechanism to speed up the review and progress is being made in that area

We are in ongoing engagement with CIF around the whole construction sector because the shortage of skills will be an issue for this year as well. There is much interaction with SOLAS and the Department of Education and Skills and the Department of Social Protection. We are working with CIF to bring about changes in JobsPlus which will help the situation. At all times the apprenticeships have to be employer driven. In respect of the next apprenticeship models, the call is open until the end of March. There has been a lot of what we would call beating the bushes, to the Departments of Education and Science, Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and Social Protection to try to engage with all the providers of education, both private and public, the education and training boards, employers and employer organisations and industry representative bodies to try to ensure we get the proposals. There are many conversations around this issue and everywhere I go around the country, everyone is talking about it but we need to ensure they come forward and step up with their proposals. We are prepared to assist those who need help to design or implement them. Certainly, some are ready with their proposals. We hope to have all the proposals on the table by the end of March. The Apprenticeship Council of Ireland will review them and make recommendations to the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, following which decisions will be made. It is hoped to have the new versions ready to be implemented by autumn 2015 but certainly by early 2016. That will require additional funding but the Cabinet is well aware of that. We have been at Cabinet on this issue on a couple of occasions. We will seek the funding required when we know exactly what we can do. I was asked about the apprenticeship legislation, again this will be designed to match the proposals. Money is ring-fenced for the uptake of existing apprenticeships this year. That is probably the short version.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The issue of apprenticeships is one I have raised previously with the Minister of State on Question Time. It is critical that the new apprenticeship model is not just for a particular skill. For example, when the construction industry went bust, the workers' skills could not be transferred directly. Therefore, when developing a new apprenticeship model it must be geared towards the workforce. We need to look at what skills will be needed in the next ten, 15 and 20 years and if there is a fall in a particular sector that people who have gone through an apprenticeship model can quickly sidestep into something else and upskill. It is also important to ensure that all apprenticeships have some level of literacy and numeracy skills built into the programmes.

In respect of the cuts in the capitation grants, the savings that will accrue to the Department amount to €1 million. I am aware that an increased number of students will enter that sector but I cannot ascertain what the figure would be if we did not have the €1 million cutback. I was able to get the figure for primary and post-primary but not for this particular programme. I would appreciate if the Minister of State could provide that figure either now or at a later date.

In regard to the education and training boards, some concern has been expressed to me by a number of people from around the country at the level of overdrafts that some ETBs are currently applying. Some of the ETBs have not accessed those overdrafts but I am getting reports that some have overdraft facilities in place up to nearly €5 million. While they have not availed of those overdraft facilities, what safeguards are being put in place to ensure that overdraft facilities which have been applied are not used? I presume this is a safety mechanism and that ETBs will not get to a position where they end up being in significant debt. What oversight is the Department looking at in that particular area?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Deputy McConalogue want to come in with any questions?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I might go through the replies to these questions first.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am just asking in case there is any duplication of questions.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry. Does Deputy McConalogue want to continue?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My question will not be a duplicate. The Minister of State can continue.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the members for all their questions.

The review of existing apprenticeships will examine whether the skills involved will be useful for the future as well as transferable. In addition, SOLAS is carefully watching the numbers applying in each sector because there has been an oversupply in the past. Part of the job of SOLAS will be to monitor that supply to ensure that there is not over-concentration in a certain area or a certain apprenticeship, because that will not achieve anything for the country.

Each new proposal will involve numeracy and literacy, but the skills will be very much transferable and, as Deputy O'Brien stated, updatable. In addition, it is part of a continuous education. It does not just stop with apprenticeship. We want to show a career path in which one can continuously add to the apprenticeship as one goes. The idea of the skills passport is that one can add to one's career.

We are being careful on this occasion not to end up in a position in two or three years' time in which there are workers who are well qualified in a certain area but who cannot get a job. That is being monitored carefully and will be part of the changes.

When the proposals come in, they will be quite clear. Some might not suit the apprenticeship model. There might be a different method, maybe a traineeship or a different kind of in-house course with employers, that could achieve that. We are trying to ensure that the area of further education and training is flexible enough to adapt and match the needs of employers at both local and national levels. We are covering that.

There will be no reduction in the number of places on PLCs, VTOS and Youthreach. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien referred to the capitation grants.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there to be an increase?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is no increase. The number of places was the same in 2013 and 2014. The number of PLC students is 37,318, and the numbers are predicted to be the same. There will be a review of PLCs at the back end of this year. It will feed into future decisions on this area. On the division of the PLC places around the country, in some places the number might seem a little high. There is pressure on numbers as well. That will all be looked at in the review to be carried out towards the end of this year. That will feed into further decisions in that sector.

On the ETBs' overdraft facilities, I will get a proper analysis for Deputy O'Brien. I do not have the information to hand. It is being monitored through SOLAS - there is a link - but I will get the Deputy the proper information rather than giving him information now. It is something that we are anxious to keep an eye on as well.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My question relates to the provision of guidance services for those who are going on to further education who are developing their skills. The Minister of State might comment on the level of guidance available at different levels within the further education and skills development sector. The ETBs and various bodies such as Intreo would provide some level of guidance, but it is not sufficient. Attention is not given to this by the Department. We must ensure there is a comprehensive service so that applicants are advised of the best course to suit their talents and they take up something that will be suitable for them when they come out of their courses. Where applicants do not make the best decisions or the ones that are appropriate to them, it means they are not making the best use of their time and the State is not making the best use of its fund. The Minister of State might comment on the level of guidance available in the further education and skills development area and what plans, if any, the Government has to further enhance that.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The area of guidance is an important one and it can be underestimated. The problem we can see with it is that there is guidance in a number of areas. There is guidance in the education and training boards. There is guidance if one goes into the Intreo office. There is guidance in schools. We need an integrated approach. Part of the strategy is that there is a proper integrated guidance service so we can ensure that at the right stages of one's life, and in each area, one gets enough guidance. For example, case workers in the Intreo offices were working on the basis of one case worker to 800 clients, and it is now down to one to 500 clients. Under the planned changes, with the private operators coming in, there will be one case officer to 200 applicants. One will move from having only five or ten minutes of career guidance or advice to being able to get the optimal offer of 30 or 40 minutes. This is an issue we recognise in both the Department of Education and Skills and the Department of Social Protection. It must be co-ordinated much better. The integrated guidance strategy, which is down for next year and which is being worked on, will probably address the concerns of the Deputy, and of us all, as to whether people are getting enough guidance at the key time of intervention.

Guidance covers a lot. As I stated at the guidance counsellors' conference at the weekend, it is a difficult job because it is not only picking a career for a person but giving him or her the tools to rebuild his or her life and pick the correct pathway, be it a career or education, for himself or herself. It takes a lot of time with the client to understand where he or she is coming from. It is probably important that we get a community approach to this through all the Departments and ensure we tick the box properly. The matter is getting the attention it needs. Naturally, as always, we would like to have as many hours of resources as we can, but we are trying also to balance the books as best we can. The integrated strategy is the correct way to go.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Guidance is a general issue as well. The Minister of State, Deputy English, is correct in stating that we need to look at an overall strategy in that regard. I have stated in various forums that there are many demands in the education sector in terms of what we will do with more funding when we have it. It is one of the areas that needs to be considered in terms of an overall strategy.

On the funding for the ETBs, as raised by Deputy O'Brien, we were able to give them a little extra funding at the end of 2014, which helped with their situation, and we will be monitoring it in 2015. It slightly reduced the pressure for them at the end of the year.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will there be an evaluation of Springboard? For instance, what is the completion rate and how successful is it in terms of participants getting employment afterwards? Is there anything like that?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is evaluated. It is an annual call. Any provider of Springboard courses is not guaranteed to get funding this year or next year. Each provider must compete every year. At present, the proposals are out. There is a proposal at present that involves evaluating the courses of the past couple of years. In some cases we probably should be considering two-year funding, because some of it is successful.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the level of course completion among students? That is what I meant.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is quite a high success rate. I must get the figures for the Chairman. It is quite high. I have the MOMENTUM figures, but the Springboard figures are quite high. I remember reading the report. I do not have the figures in my head but I will send them on to the Chairman. There is a good report on that. The rates of placement and job creation are quite high, and there are some who get a job while in the middle of a Springboard course.

Returning to what Deputy McConalogue mentioned, there are some cases in which we see an applicant taking on a Springboard course, thinking it is the course that he or she wanted. It goes back to having the correct guidance at that intervention before the applicant picks the conversion course through Springboard. Some people drop out because they thought the course was something else. It goes back to the question of career guidance. That is why it is important that we have career guidance at every stage. However, Springboard is quite successful. It is well evaluated. There is a proper report, which I will send on to the Chairman.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would the Minister of State elaborate on what is planned with regard to the integrated guidance service plan? How extensive will that be, how many sectors will it range across and what does Deputy English hope to achieve from it?

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is in the further education and training sector. It is being worked on. It is to ensure there is joined-up thinking across the sector of further education and training. There is a lot of adult guidance in the ETBs. Then they go down the road to the Intreo office and there is a crossover there. It is to ensure we get the best use of resources, but also that the client gets the best service, with enough time with a guidance officer, be it in the Intreo office or in the ETB. We will have that strategy for 2016 and we will implement it then. It is to close the gap identified by Deputy McConalogue. In some cases, applicants take the wrong course. We can see it at all levels of education. For some reason, an applicant might end up on the wrong course, or a course that does not suit him or her, and that is a waste of time and also a loss to the State. The aim is to correct that. It also recognises that there is a significant need for the service, and a demand. It is to ensure that we can best manage our resources to deliver that service where and when it is needed.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can come back to any issue afterwards when we have finished discussing the programmes. The next programme is programme C, higher education.

I will start with Deputy McConalogue.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister indicated in her contribution that the funding of €25 million to the higher education institutions which was withheld in 2013 and 2014 will be restored.

She also indicated there will be no change to the student registration fee in September in respect of the 2015-2016 year, nor in any subsequent years. The increase in student contributions was the main means by which the Government increased income to the third level sector in the past four years. There are growing pressures on third level institutions from the demographics to maintain quality and meet their responsibilities to students. How does the Minister plan to fund the third level sector, considering the fact that she has drawn a line underneath increasing the student contribution charges? Is it correct that as the student contribution fee has increased, the extra funding derived from that increase has not been allocated to third level institutions? Does she have any plans to change that situation?

I note the Minister's proposals to change the way maintenance grants will be paid. It was mentioned to me on a number of occasions that the student registration fee must be paid upfront at the start of the academic year, yet the State does not pay it for students on a grant. That puts particular pressure on students and families who already find the cost of going to college very difficult. Would the Minister be in a position to engage with institutions to provide a staggered payment option in order that the registration fee, which has now risen to €3,000, could be spread over the course of the year?

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The proposed technological universities are quickly becoming a disaster area. I think the Department is taking a hands-off approach. I know the Higher Education Authority is the body responsible for overseeing and implementing that policy, but the proposal in regard to Carlow Institute of Technology is pretty much dead in the water. I do not think it will happen.

There is growing concern in regard to the merger of the ITs in Cork and Tralee as there is a difference of opinion between the governing bodies and the staff. The Labour Relations Commission is now coming into play. The members are about to balloted on the issue of a technological university. There is a major flaw in respect of the whole process. The proposal for the merger of Cork and Tralee is now heading into stage four on the back of an expert panel report that made a number of recommendations. A number of concerns were raised about the financing model, advising the governing bodies to give further consideration to their income streams, because in the period between the merged entity being established and the awarding of technological university status by the HEA, they would need funding. There is work to be done on that.

The expert panel also identified the work to be done on the governance structure which is being proposed by the governing bodies of both Cork and Tralee ITs. My concern is that there seems to be an impression that the governing bodies will press ahead with what they originally proposed, in spite of a number of recommendations being put forward by the expert panel. Mr. Tom Boland, the chief executive of the HEA, set out clearly in a letter to the governing bodies that the recommendations in the report of the expert panel are an integral part of the process. He said in a roundabout way that unless the recommendations were taken on board, incorporated and implemented, it would be very difficult for the status of technological university to be granted to the new merged entity.

I do not know if the proposed merger of Carlow IT and Waterford IT can progress. There is an impression that Waterford will pull out of the process. The proposed merger of Cork IT and Tralee IT is heading in a similar way and there is even a possibility of industrial action. I do not know how to resolve the issue but I do know that the Department must focus on it. The policy on the proposed mergers is crumbling.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before the Minister responds, I know her output target includes the publication of a technological universities Bill. Has she a timescale for the legislation?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will respond to Deputy McConalogue on the general issues around the funding of higher education. As the Deputy knows, my predecessor, Deputy Quinn, established an expert group under the chairmanship of Mr. Peter Cassells to look at the future funding of higher education, and I expect the expert group to report to me some time this year. That group is working on the options for the future funding of higher education, an issue on which we have to make decisions. I need to get that report before we can make those broader decisions. Everybody has strong views on that issue, as I know the Chairman has.

We have asked the higher education institutions to put arrangements in place to allow students to pay the student contribution in two instalments in order that they would not be asked for the full contribution upfront. I asked the institutions directly to put that arrangement in place because clearly it is difficult for people to come up with the money

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did the Minister do this recently, such as this year?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not sure of the exact date but it is relatively recent. The 1% cut is coming to an end but it is in place for coming year. The student contribution increases are coming to an end once it reaches the figure of €3,000. The €25 million has been restored to the HEA. We expect the higher education institutions to live within the framework for the next year.

The expert group's report will arrive, and as I have said, there are serious issues to look at in terms of the growing demographics and what we expect our higher education institutions to do in terms of their contribution to individual students as well as the economic and social prosperity of the country. There will be a major engagement with them.

Deputy O'Brien raised the issue of the technological universities.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where have the increased student contributions been going? Have they gone to the institutions or have they been subsumed into the Department?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They went to the institutions but that sum was offset by how much they got from the Department.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would it be the case that the four increases which the institutions would have received would have been offset by deductions in the funding from the Department of Education and Skills? As such has the money been subsumed by the Department's overall fund or does it go to general Government funds?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the way it has been for many years.

There was a corresponding reduction in what they got from the Department.

On the technological universities, I would disagree with Deputy Jonathan O'Brien's point about the south east. While the situation is difficult, Mr. Michael Kelly is leading a consultation process. He has met not just the governing bodies but the various stakeholders in the region and in the institutions. He is due to report to me by the end of March, so I would hope to get that report very soon. I will not deny that there have been difficulties in the south east. There have been difficulties in the relationship between the two institutions. I want to see this succeed. I think the region deserves to have everybody make every effort to ensure it succeeds. The region has difficulties but if it can achieve technological university status, there is a very strong belief that it will help the region generally and I support that. I want to do everything I can to make it happen. That is why I have appointed Mr. Kelly. I would encourage the two institutions to engage fully in the process. I know that Mr. Kelly will make recommendations to me and I will certainly do everything I can to ensure that it proceeds to the next phase.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was a briefing on Monday between the governing bodies and Oireachtas Members. If the Minister speaks to any of the Oireachtas Members who were present, it is very clear from what was said at that meeting that it is becoming increasingly unlikely that it will progress any further.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is all the more reason we need to stand up to the challenges. We need to challenge people in the institutions to step up to the plate and put the interests of their students and the region to the fore. We need to see progress on it.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it true to say that one of the flaws in the process was that there was no independent person? If an independent person said that this could be achieved in a certain number of years, that would counter some of the arguments from the institutions that the length of time required to make it happen would be to the detriment of their institutions.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The problem I have with the matter is that there seems to be a suggestion that somebody will make it happen for them. They have to make it happen for themselves.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They have to engage in the process. They have to want it and they will have to do a certain amount of work themselves. Very clear criteria were laid down at the start of the process. The institutions in three parts of the country that decided to engage in the process did so knowing the criteria they had to reach, knowing that merger was part of it, knowing that they had to reach a certain level before they could get to the next stage and knowing exactly what was required. To sit back and say we cannot do it will not achieve anything for anybody.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would strongly encourage them.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are also those who think that if the merger did not progress in the south east, one of the institutes could go ahead and secure technological university status as a single body. I know the proposed legislation to establish a technological university is based on a merged entity. It should be made very clear that to gain technological university status, it is on the basis of a merged entity.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is clear. That is one of the criteria they have to reach.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think the fact that the legislation has not been published-----

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To answer the Chair's question, we expect to publish it during the next term and we hope to have it enacted by mid-2015, but that depends on how quickly it can proceed.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will it be done after Easter?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it possible for the Minister to comment on the Munster technological university?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the Deputy knows, the proposed Munster technological university has got beyond the stage the south east has not yet reached. There is a requirement on the institutes to ensure they work together on the merger to move on to the next stage. The HEA is directly engaged with them, and the Deputy mentioned Mr. Tom Boland. We are keeping a watch on it in the Department and we want to ensure there are no obstacles. The institutions need to engage with their own staff and so on-----

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not happening.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and with the HEA. The issue in the south east is of greater concern, but again there has to be an engagement and consultation within and between the institutions to make this happen. Again I would encourage them to do that.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The projected cost is €6.7 million. Nobody can ascertain how that €6.7 million will be put in place. The only thing we have from the governing bodies is that it will be achieved through efficiencies in their budgets. Nobody knows what the efficiencies are, and nobody has outlined what they are. A staff member who hears about efficiencies and rationalisation will start to worry. There is very little consultation from where I am looking.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As I said to the Deputy during Question Time yesterday, they said from the beginning that they would be able to do this part within their own resources. I would encourage the institutions to engage with their community to ensure they explain how this will happen.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will draw that item to a close because we agreed to move on to the next item. We can come back to the issue afterwards if necessary. I will change the order of speakers to allow others in. We will deal with capital services on page 38 of the Department's briefing material. I call Deputy Keating.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister, the Minister of State and the officials. This is a very useful and welcome debate. I cannot help but being struck by the improvements that have taken place and the increased allocation to education. We have come a long way in the past four years.

I want to make a general point on the capital programme but I do not want to get too parochial because each of us will have issues in our constituencies. As a Deputy, I have often gone through the experience over the past four years that when it comes to the allocation of capital funding for school development programmes, the age issue is forgotten. I have tabled parliamentary questions about two schools in my constituency, St. Thomas's and St. Anne's. There has been a considerable level of development in my constituency and other Deputies will have experienced it as well in theirs. Sometimes, however, when there is an application for an extension that was submitted more than 14 years ago, people cannot help but feel that they have been overlooked and completely forgotten, especially when newer schools that have come on stream in the interim have applied for extensions and have been given priority. I wish to make that general point on the criteria for examining schools that require extensions or development in terms of the age profile of the applications. I thank the Chair.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to make a quick point. There has been great progress and I can see it in my constituency but an issue I was wondering about is that some schools are left with a significant number of prefab buildings. When I go to the school, I can see that the conditions of the prefabs are not acceptable but these schools are not getting onto the five-year building programme because it is not considered that they fit in within the developing area, even though they are taking students from a developing area. Has the issue of school buildings that are not up to scratch been looked at?

On programme D3, which is to do with building in primary and post primary schools, what is the reason that the current expenditure is reducing?

Is that because the capital is going up? Are the two related? Deputy O'Brien might want to come in on that.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have a general question on capital. I am trying to ascertain the figure for what was spent on emergency applications for capital works last year.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Deputy Conaghan want to come in on the school buildings?

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will keep my general questions together.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The figure for emergency capital is €12.9 million in 2014.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that what was budgeted for or what we-----

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was expenditure.

On Deputy Keating's general point about older schools, when the five year building programme was announced, and I recall the former Minister, Deputy Quinn, saying that he did not want any child to be looking out at a field instead of a classroom, the big pressure was demographics. It was to make sure that every child had a classroom to go to. That is why the vast majority of the last five year programme was spent on building schools and classrooms for demographics. However, money was spent on some of the older schools as well and in the building programme we are working on now, and which we will be announcing in the middle of this year - the next five year programme - I hope to be able to spend more money on the school that has been established a long time, has not had new buildings, etc., and is looking at getting new buildings. I hope to ensure we would have more funding for that particular purpose. Obviously, we will have to include the demographics as well.

When we got some stimulus money for the current 2015 programme and the 70 major buildings that were announced, some of those were for older schools that needed to be replaced, renovated and expanded. However, I take the point that most of the funding in the previous programme had to go for demographics.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I seek clarification. When did the Minister say she hopes to make that announcement?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We hope to announce the next five year building programme around the middle of this year.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That will be a completely new programme?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It will be a completely new programme starting in the beginning of 2016. We are always looking for money so if there is any stimulus money we will look for more funding for capital for this year. We have announced our current capital programme for this year, which included those 70 schools, but we will always chase after any money that might become available. If we do get money, we will certainly look at schools that are anticipating that they might be ready for the start of the next programme.

There is a positive answer to the Chairman's question on the reason the current spending has decreased. It is because there are fewer rentals of prefabricated buildings because of the prefab programme. On the Department's prefab initiative, approval has been given to 209 primary schools and eight post-primary schools, as I said at the outset, to replace 614 prefab units with permanent accommodation.

I have more information generally on the replacement prefab programme. Phase 1 of the initiative was launched in 2012, with €42 million in funding to replace 458 prefab units with permanent accommodation at 167 primary schools and four post-primary schools. To date, 157 of these projects have been completed, with eight currently in train.

Phase 2 of the initiative was announced in June 2013 to allow 46 schools replace 119 mainstream classrooms and 37 resource rooms. Approval has been given to 42 primary schools with an allocation of €14 million and to four post-primary schools with an allocation of €1.6 million. Nine of the projects are currently under construction, with seven projects completed at a cost of €3.5 million to date. The total estimated costs are €15 million, with the majority spend in 2015 of €12 million. If any member wants that in writing, I can give it to him or her later.

In the new programme to which I referred, we will continue the programme of replacing prefabs because we would all agree it is not ideal, but sometimes prefabs are needed in urgent situations. One of the significant achievements of my predecessor, Deputy Quinn, was to get that programme under way, and I certainly intend to continue with it.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there any chance there will be a summer works scheme for 2015? If so, what will be the latest date by which it could be announced? It is my understanding that if there was to be one for this current year, applications would already have been sought and received.

On the minor works grant, is there funding in the Estimates for the payment of the minor works grant at the back end of this year? Is there a specific allocation for that?

The Minister mentioned prefab replacement. Does the Department have an average calculation for the length of time it takes to pay for the capital funding of a prefab based on the average rentals? Is it five or six years? It will vary in some cases but is there an overall calculation of the number of years replacing a prefab would take in terms of forgone rents?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I believe it is about three years. I have been told that if it is more than three years, we will buy it. We can get further clarification on that if the Deputy needs it.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there a phone in the vicinity because one is causing interference?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the minor works scheme, the normal practice is for that to be announced later in the year. It is funded from money we find later in the year, so I would not be putting in the amount now. I would hope to find it later in the year. That is as much as I can say on that at this point.

With regard to the summer works scheme, the time is approaching when, if we are going to announce a summer works scheme, we will have to find the money soon. We are working hard to try to find the money. I am sure the Deputy will keep-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it within the Department?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----me under pressure on that one.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was expecting the announcement last weekend.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are not ready for any announcement yet. I cannot tell the Deputy one way or the other whether there will be an announcement, but we are trying to find some money for that. Obviously, because we have to have time to organise the works, there is a fairly short timeframe.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister indicated in her opening statement that those categories that were not included in last year's grant for the summer works scheme may be considered. Is that what she is examining?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Minister were to do it would it be a fresh round of applications or would it be confined to those applications submitted last year but which were not further-----

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would be the applications submitted last year. The remaining categories are priorities seven to ten. They would be windows, curricular requirement projects, other structural improvements and external environment projects, which would include school yards.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would there be a fresh round of applications if the Minister were to allocate funding this year?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I do not believe we would get enough funding to do any more than those works. They would be the ones considered if we get funding.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To be clear about the minor works grants, no funding is laid out in the Estimate at this stage for a minor works grant to be paid at the end of year. If the Minister were to pay it out, she would have to find the money elsewhere, and it would have to come off other spending columns.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not that it would be taken from any other spending but if there was money available, and we would search very hard to find it, we would use it for that purpose.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can the Minister explain that as I do not understand it?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If there was an underspend in some area, for example-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That would mean it would come from other capital columns.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would have to come from within our resources.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do members have any further questions?

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A member can come in six times with six questions compared to a member who has one question.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is the new way of doing it, and we have to adhere to it.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Anyway, the contributions of Deputies O'Brien and McConalogue were very interesting. I know it takes a long time for money to get up to Donegal. That is a big issue-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It does.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----because I am from there.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy had to come down here to get it.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Conaghan managed to get a good education here anyway.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister, the Minister of State and the officials. I commend the Minister on her dedication, work and enthusiasm. She is a natural in that job. I want to refer to two or three items.

I wish to refer to her support and enthusiasm for things that are sometimes not given the impetus and notice they ought to get. These include apprenticeships, literacy, SNAs, school buildings and the pupil-teacher ratio. Once funding has become available, both the Minister and Minister of State have been good at not waiting around but getting it done. Teachers are delighted that the ball has been firmly grasped and that someone is again running towards the line in their direction.

I know the Minister has an interest in the arts in education. The primary school curriculum has an emphasis, and rightly so, on the value of the arts in education. Dance, drama, mime and music have a capacity and potential for children in terms of development, discovery and creativity. Through such artistic pursuits children can discover new things about themselves deep down, which even their parents did not think about. These pursuits can become a central plank in human development and discovery.

Unfortunately, however, the arts generally get a poor showing in primary school education. Unlike history, geography and mathematics, these subjects are not taught in that kind of way. Much of that has to do with resources. One does not find a drama teacher, ballet teacher or a grand piano around every corner. We need to tackle the matter.

I want to draw attention to a successful experiment that was undertaken in west Dublin. They clustered a dozen primary schools together and drew on key resources in Ballyfermot College of Music, Inchicore College of Drama and elsewhere, including one of the leading ballet teachers in the country. Those children received an induction into the arts such as they or their teachers had never anticipated or experienced. It was done most inexpensively with no great cost to anyone. It was just done through existing resources but it was done cleverly. We must tackle the arts in education. Rather than waiting for national lottery resources, it can be done in that way. I will forward to the Minister a document I have drawn up on that experience.

The further education sector is reasonably new, comprising old technical schools in the vocational sector. The strength of the latter sector has always been there with one foot in the classroom and one in the workplace. The vocational sector's deep-seated value and attraction concerns the relevance of education to work, training and advancement. As the Minister knows, that is also marked in further education. The city is surrounded by colleges of further education such as those in Ballyfermot, Finglas and Coolock.

One of the most important developments in education in Dublin city involves participation rates among young working class men and women, which have sky-rocketed. Those colleges are on their doorsteps and they see exciting things happening, including music, drama and plays. The sector also caters for other aspects of the new economy such as child care, computers, legal and social studies. It is a renewal of the old VEC philosophy of education and training with an eye on the workplace and the marketplace.

The further education sector is not really recognised, although it is so inexpensive. When I read reports I expect to see a chapter on further education but I do not. That is failing to recognise those who are involved in the sector. They expect to see that their initiatives are getting some recognition but, sadly, they are often disappointed. I would therefore like to see something being done about that. I would like to see the arts in education being tackled. It can be done inexpensively but without any loss of value in tuition and the intervention in young people's lives.

The idea of having universities of technology has become something of a fetish. Everyone wants them but what is the big deal? One of the most prestigious educational establishments in the world is the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. It is a leader and no other university has that kind of status in America where MIT stands out. However, the idea of universities of technology is a fetish, a competition and a fashion. I am not saying people are neglecting the educational side of things but it is not the name, title or label; it is what one does. What kind of intervention does that amount to? That is what is valuable. We need to read about that in the newspapers, rather than reading about Carlow wanting this and somewhere else wanting that, which is peripheral.

I admire the Minister's work. It is exciting to have her as the Minister for Education and Skills. I also know the Minister of State, Deputy English, very well from sitting around committee tables. I know he is a person of action in work and training. It is a good mix.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have two programmes left, which are appropriations-in-aid and administration. I suggest that we group them together with any general questions and try to finish by 12.30 p.m.

I have one point to add to what Deputy Conaghan was saying. The HEA recently did a study on participation rates but it was not a full study like the Clancy reports, it was much more partial. The HEA report had low participation rates for Ballyfermot, while the Clancy report showed that areas like Clondalkin had increased participation. I reckon part of the problem was that in areas like Ballyfermot people would go to Ballyfermot College of Further Education and would not be counted by the HEA. They should be, however, because people do courses up to degree level in that college.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Some of them have been to Hollywood.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course, they have been nominated for Oscars. There is a problem in that the HEA is not recognising the progress in those areas. It is because it might not fit into what categories the HEA is examining.

I will now call on the Minister to respond to the various points that have been made.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all the Deputies for their comments. The Minister of State, Deputy English, and I are working closely on all these issues. We would both agree with the last point that we need to value further education because it does not receive the recognition it should. That is part of the work we are doing at the moment. Ballyfermot is a good example of a college of further education whose work has been widely recognised.

We all feel strongly about participation rates and want to ensure they grow. Equally, we are valuing apprenticeships as a model. It is not just about who goes to a higher education institution, it is about who has the opportunity to progress to their own future career choice. We must give them those pathways as well as provid opportunities to move from one area to another. That is a big part of our job.

Deputy Conaghan made a general point about the arts in education. The Minister for the Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and I have signed a charter between our Departments on the arts and their relationship to education. There are specific areas that we need to work on in that respect. I personally want to ensure that that happens because it is so invigorating. Such activity brings out a lot in young people. If they do not have an opportunity to engage with the arts, they are really missing out on a hugely important area of life.

This year, I have been able to provide extra funding for music generation. Recently I was in Portlaoise where, through the ETB, I met people working on music generation programmes. It is great to see young people getting an opportunity to learn to play musical instruments. The music in the classroom programme is also being strongly supported.

There is a film festival for schools called the FÍS Film Festival, and I recently attended the presentations thereon in the Helix. There is a lot going on, but what the Department really needs to do is to ensure no people are left out and that there are no schools that do not offer opportunities. Every time I visit a school, a choir sings or people play musical instruments as I enter, and there is art all over the walls. The work is being done, but our job is to ensure that it is co-ordinated-----

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And that the curriculum is delivered.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and that the curriculum is delivered and that there are no schools missing out for one reason or another.

I have made the point on further education and technological universities.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Conaghan. He taught me well in his couple of years here. He always raises the wider view on what we are trying to achieve. To add to what the Minister said about the further education and training sector, we recognise very strongly the sector's importance and the fact that it must become a major pillar of our education system. We are spending over €800 million in the sector, so any issues that arise are not because of a lack of money; it is a question of people's perception. During the boom years, people turned their backs on further education and training, for whatever reason. There has been much reform in the sector, and much is delivered in it. The sector has given very many people the opportunity to engage in further education and training, right up to master's level and beyond, and develop a career path. There are great opportunities. There is a need for more crossover between the further education and training sector and the higher education sector. If we are to address the skills shortage, it will be done through the two sectors equally, and through a combination of both. We face a skills problem and a mismatch of talents regarding the jobs we are to have this year, next year and later as we recover. Therefore, the talent drive identified in the Action Plan for Jobs demonstrates that it is necessary to up the game in the further education and training sector and the higher education sector. There is no doubt about that.

One of the main parts of the five-year strategy that SOLAS has produced concerns the standing of further education and training. Both the Minister and I are part of this and are going to try to address it. What the sector is doing and the services it provides need proper recognition.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I note, in respect of the subheads in the category of administration, that the figure concerning NEPS staff in 2013 was just under €17.5 million, while the provisional outturn for last year dropped to €15 million. This is quite a significant drop. Why is that the case?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It probably relates to the issue raised earlier concerning numbers. Deputy O'Brien was asking me about vacancies and I listed the number this year and the numbers being interviewed. We are gradually increasing the number of staff, and I believe the goal is 173. As the Deputy knows, there has been an increase in the Estimate for this year. This is because we are recruiting. We will have more psychologists.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Under which programme is the National Educational Welfare Board?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is now the responsibility of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was a drop from €17 million to €15 million.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was a drop between 2013 and 2014, but the Estimate for this year is higher because we are actually recruiting.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The drop of over €2.5 million was quite significant.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can give the Deputy the actual figures. Earlier I gave the figures for this year, but we can get the Deputy the figures for other years. The number of psychologists is to rise from 168 to 173. There are interviews taking place at present.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the number reaches 173, it will be the highest in approximately six years.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. It will mean we have reached the number required for access for all schools.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To what did it drop?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There were 168 at the start of this year, or the end of last year.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister might revert to us on the figure. There was a decrease in the Estimate of almost €2.5 million from 2013 to 2014. That is over 10%, so it seems strange.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will get the details for the Deputy.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Minister wishes to make any closing remarks, she may do so. After that, we will conclude the meeting.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have covered everything. I thank the members for their questions and comments. The discussion was very wide-ranging. The members have strong views on the importance of education in general and certain elements in particular.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, the Minister of State, Deputy Damien English, and the officials from the Department of Education and Skills for attending.