Mr. Gerry Light:

I wish to pick up on a few of the issues raised. The notion of low pay and precarious work conditions is bad enough but when it is experienced in profitable companies, it is particularly galling. For far too long and far too often the value and output of the contribution of workers have been conveniently set aside. We, and particularly employers, talk about competitiveness at every opportunity and we talk about productivity levels, but some of the biggest and most profitable corporations in this world are retail operations.

They produce billions every year in both turnover and profit. We must look at that issue, point the finger and ask the questions, where appropriate, of those who can clearly pay but resist doing so, as well as of those who may have a genuine case. As I said earlier, the only place one can make such a case is around the table, with employers facing workers' representatives. Ultimately, if there is disagreement, then the institutions of the State can be called on to make a call on the situation. There is nothing wrong with that; it is a fundamentally safe way to conduct business.

A question was asked as to whether there is any evidence to support the view that minimum wage legislation leads or contributes to higher unemployment levels. I have said publicly many times that it is not in any trade union's interests to force employers into a room and get them to pay money that they do not have because that will ultimately end up in the loss of employment and the closure of businesses. Why would one do that? The potential for higher levels of unemployment can be adequately catered for within the current structures that exist, namely, the inability to pay clause. Employers can go to court and let the most appropriate body in the land make the judgment call. If an employer genuinely believes that having to pay the minimum wage or honouring some other commitment will be detrimental to his or her business, he or she can make that case and let the court make the decision. That is a very safe mechanism and whether we have credible evidence for or against the argument, that safety net is there. However, as I said earlier, it is a mechanism that is very rarely used for very obvious reasons.