David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I ask everybody to turn off all mobile telephones or put them on silent or airplane mode, depending on the device in question, as they interfere with the transmission and recording systems. Apologies have been received from Deputy Alan Farrell and Senators Rónán Mullen, Ivana Bacik and Denis O'Donovan.

The purpose of this meeting is to receive a briefing on the findings of research on the undocumented migrants in Ireland. A briefing has been circulated to members. I welcome Ms Helen Lowry, Ms Edel McGinley and Mr. Jayson Montenegro, and thank them for being here. I will ask them to make short opening statements of approximately five minutes and we will then have a question-and-answer session with members on the issues brought to our attention today.

Before we begin, I draw the attention of witnesses to matters relating to privilege. Please note that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of your evidence to the committee. However, if you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of any evidence you give. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should also be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Helen Lowry:

I thank the Chairman, Deputies and Senators on behalf of the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland and the 900 members of our justice for the undocumented campaign group, JFU. We thank the committee for its time today and for hearing our presentations.

My name is Helen Lowry and I am community work co-ordinator with the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland. To my right is Ms Edel McGinley, our director and previous co-ordinator of the campaign, and to my left is Mr. Jayson Montenegro, a member of the leaders' group of the JFU campaign. The MRCI has been working with undocumented migrants for over 14 years and since 2001 it has taken a stand with migrant workers on rights issues through service provision, advocacy and policy change. Jayson will share his story and I will conclude.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Lowry. Mr. Montenegro wishes to say a few words.

Mr. Jayson Montenegro:

My name is Jayson. I am from the Philippines and I have lived and worked in Ireland for 11 years. I am undocumented. In 2004, I looked at my children and asked myself, "Can I give them a good life or will they be the same as me, working hard but getting nowhere?". As a father, one does not want to see that. One wants to give one's children a good future, so I left the Philippines and came here.

For my first six years in Ireland, I worked in maintenance, cleaning and painting. We call it a 3D job, that is, dirty, difficult and dangerous. I was not paid much, but the employer promised me a work permit and I was learning a lot, so I stayed. It was not until I came to the MRCI for advice that I discovered there had never been any chance of getting me a work permit. I am now working as a carer, looking after an elderly person. I have been working as a carer for over four years. I have always worked for the 11 years I have been here.

When I first left the Philippines my youngest was five years of age. He kept asking me when I was coming back. He is 17 years of age now and has not stopped asking. He wants to be a pilot, and he has the grades and is doing well in school. That is the reason I am still here, to continue to fund my youngest child's education to give him the opportunities I never had. With the money I have earned here, my two daughters have gone to college. One has a degree in IT, the other in midwifery. I put my sister-in-law through college and supported my parents when my father’s heart condition stopped him from working.

This month last year my father passed away suddenly, during a routine operation. The last time I saw him was in 2004, when I left the Philippines to come to Ireland for work. Not being there for his funeral was one of the hardest times in my life. Watching it on Skype and being unable to comfort my mother was difficult beyond words. My family is in the Philippines. I am a foreigner there now. It breaks my heart.

This is where I live and work, I have friends here. I am still supporting my children so they can finish their education. I am in the same situation as the thousands of undocumented Irish in the United States. My story is their story. We have the very same hopes and dreams, and we too deserve a chance to regularise our status. We are calling for a reasonable solution. We could come forward, pay a fee, and have our situations assessed on a case-by-case basis. It would be transparent, straightforward and fair.

I am very happy to be here today to share my story but I am one of thousands of people in this situation. We are a asking for a chance to be recognised and contribute more formally to Irish society. We are not recent arrivals to Ireland. We are here long-term, have put down roots and are making a valuable contribution. We have been calling for regularisation for over seven years. We believe it is time for change.

We would love to see the same political leadership of the kind President Barack Obama has shown in the US. I know that members of this committee value fairness, equality and justice and I hope they will support our recommendation for the introduction of a regularisation scheme in Ireland in the lifetime of this Government.

Ms Helen Lowry:

The MRCI was set up in 2001 and has been working with undocumented migrants since then. We operate a very busy city-centre drop-in service that provides information and support. From May 2009 to October 2014, we provided information and support to 2,644 undocumented migrants from 96 different countries, all living here on average eight years. We established the Justice for the Undocumented campaign group just over four years ago in an effort to progress a policy solution and advocate for change in this area. To date, successive Governments have not done a huge amount to address the situation of undocumented migrants. This is increasingly worrying in a diverse Ireland where there has been inward migration for over 15 years and where undocumented migrants and their families have put down roots and make a valuable contribution. The improved economy and significant length of time undocumented migrants have lived here make this an opportune time to bring about a comprehensive solution.

It is clearly not possible to categorically state the number of undocumented migrants in Ireland. However, it is possible to make a well-informed estimate, which is clearly critical in the planning of any policy response. We appreciate that and have done a lot of work in this area. Based on research carried out by the MRCI, we estimate that there are between 20,000 and 26,000 undocumented migrants living and working in Ireland. We can provide a breakdown of how we devised this figure. In our experience, the vast majority of undocumented migrants have entered Ireland legally and have been working and living here for many years. Our survey of over 540 undocumented migrants found that over 92% of people entered the country legally and became undocumented afterwards.

People can become undocumented migrants for a variety of reasons. Undocumented migrants in Ireland can be broadly described under the following categories. Clearly these need careful consideration and inclusion in any potential regularisation scheme. They include visa "over stayers", including tourists, people from non-visa required countries, student visa holders and others; migrants with un-enforced deportation orders who are not in a position to leave the State; and children of undocumented migrants. We estimate there are between 2,000 and 5,000 children of undocumented migrants in Ireland. We are particularly concerned about their precarious future growing up in a country where they have a very uncertain future.

In a similar fashion to the undocumented Irish in the US, there is a lot of stress and fear associated with being undocumented. We find that the people with whom we work encounter significant problems in accessing basic and essential services. We are particularly concerned about the high rate of non-compliance and workplace exploitation experienced by people who are working. It is very hard to advocate for one's employment rights when one is being deported. Undocumented migrants fear the authorities, in particular the Garda, and are reluctant to report crimes such as domestic violence, theft and racist incidents for fear of detection. The MRCI is particularly concerned about the vulnerable situation of the children of undocumented migrants, some of whom are born here and some of whom came here at a young age. They are growing up and going to national and secondary school here and face very uncertain futures. To them, Ireland is very much home.

I mentioned the research. We have circulated the infographic and the research we did. We have put a lot of work into that research, which was carried by out by Mr. Montenegro, his colleagues and ourselves in the MRCI. It was the first research of its kind in the country and carried out with over 540 undocumented migrants. The research speaks for itself but I will highlight a few statistics. We found that 81% of undocumented migrants have been living in Ireland for five years or longer and one in five for over a decade; 87% of people were in employment and 92% were not in a formal legal process to regularise their situations. We are finding that many people are in employment. A total of 70% of the respondents were also working over 30 hours per week, many of them in minimum wage jobs that are essential to keep our economy and society functioning, such as restaurant and catering, domestic work, cleaning and maintenance.

The findings of this research paint a very similar picture to that of undocumented Irish living and working in the US. Having worked directly with undocumented migrants in Ireland for over 14 years, we firmly believe it is time to look closer to home - a diverse and multicultural Ireland where migrants and their families have put down roots. Mr. Montenegro has spoken eloquently about the fact that he has the same struggles, hopes and dreams as the undocumented Irish in the US. As somebody who works with the undocumented, I am regularly humbled by the significant sacrifices undocumented families we work with are making to ensure their children and extended family members have opportunities in life that they did not.

We appreciate that our leaders, delegates and committee members will be travelling to the US, particularly around St Patrick's Day, for a number of reasons, one of which will be to highlight the situation of the undocumented migrants, and we commend this. We would like to bring their gaze closer to home in terms of the situation of undocumented migrants here.

The MRCI is about working on problems and offering solutions. We have put forward a proposal to introduce regularisation. We believe the situation can best be addressed through the introduction of policy measures allowing for the administration of a once-off, time-bound regularisation scheme. This scheme could be implemented in tandem with other solutions for those living in direct provision, etc. A scheme such as this could be introduced as part of a policy package and does not require legislation. I hear that this is an important point. The Irish Born Child and Undocumented Workers schemes were two examples of common sense schemes that were introduced as part of a managed migration policy. We see this scheme as being pragmatic, enforceable, clear and fair and one that responds to rather than rewards illegality.

There needs to be clear criteria to identify people and to administer the scheme in the Department of Justice and Equality so we have suggested that the following criteria could apply. The first criterion is length of time in the State. All persons resident in Ireland for four years would be eligible to register for the scheme. The second criterion is a criminal bar. Similar to other programmes implemented in OECD countries, of which there are many, and the EU, this scheme would exclude all persons with a serious criminal conviction. The third criterion is the implementation a probationary period. We have suggested this because it gives migrants a window of time to register for the scheme and potentially pay a fee. They are temporarily regularised and enter a two-year probationary period much like the successful student probationary extension scheme of 2004. This serves a number of purposes. It gives the Department an opportunity to administer the scheme. We appreciate this will take some people hours and a bit of organisation. It serves as a protection element upholding the integrity of the immigration system, gives the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service and the Department control over the process and puts in place a number of conditions that applicants must satisfy in order to secure residency. During the probationary period, undocumented migrants would be issued with a temporary status or visa, have the right to work without a work permit so they could formalise their employment situation and have the right to travel to a maximum of three months of the year - possibly back to their home country.

The MRCI estimates that the administration of such a scheme will cost €3 million. However, the projected income from the scheme would far exceed this. We believe the scheme will bring in an annual income in excess of €7.5 million through direct taxation. A once-off fee will generate over €11.5 million. Ongoing immigration registration fees will generate an annual income of €5 million. Finally, income brought in through employer PRSI contributions will generate €20 million per year. In total, this scheme has the potential to generate €185 million over five years, which is a conservative estimate. This offsets any resource implications for the introduction of such a scheme and contributes significantly to the tax purse. Such a scheme would have other benefits of which members of the committee will be very aware in the context of communities and social cohesion. Many members are in constituencies with very diverse communities. These benefits include security, keeping in step with international practice and humanitarian concerns. We also believe it is the right and responsible thing to do.

We have a number of recommendations for action. The MRCI is calling on the Minister for Justice and Equality to introduce a once-off, time-bound regularisation scheme with transparent criteria in the lifetime of the current Government. The MRCI very much hopes that the committee can support this recommendation. To progress this matter, we respectfully propose either that the committee appoints a rapporteur to work with the MRCI and others to develop a set of recommendations to put forward to the Minister or that the MRCI could submit a formal proposal with the recommendation to the committee for review and endorsement to the Minister.

We again thank the committee for its time today.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Lowry and Mr. Montenegro for their presentations. Mr. Montenegro's presentation was very powerful.

I congratulate him on it. It will not have been easy for him. We are aware of the number of people who have attended citizenship ceremonies in the last while. There have been many tens of thousands at this stage. This is another area to which we must give some attention.

Colleagues are anxious to ask questions. They will ask three questions initially. I will then come back to them again. The witnesses will be glad to hear that we will have questions rather than speeches.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for the presentations and, in particular, Mr. Montenegro. I listened to the piece on Newstalk this morning and I found it very moving and I have now also heard his evidence here today. We often hear about the opening of floodgates and huge numbers coming in. If Irish people with concerns about this heard the testimony of Mr. Montenegro they would realise that it is the testimony of any Irish family, particularly families across the west. That region has been heavily affected by emigration. We argue for the regularisation of our own citizens who have had to leave and are based in the United States. These people have missed funerals, weddings and family occasions. The arguments we heard today are the same arguments we make to Americans when we visit the United States.

The proposals the MRCI has put together are reasonable. They concern people who have been in this country for a length of time and who have contributed to our economy. The centre has also included the substantial net financial benefit to the State in the presentation. It is clear that the centre is mindful of the concerns of some members of the public in that regard. Based on these proposals, the concerns about an opening of the floodgates are unwarranted. Will the witnesses address this issue further?

Ms Helen Lowry:

I imagine our director, Ms Edel McGinley, would also like to speak on this aspect. We have a common sense approach in the MCRI to the problems we encounter. We have been working with undocumented migrants from the outset and are, therefore, very aware of how people come undocumented. A lot of thought has been put into this including a lot of research in terms of the concept of a regularisation. We feel clear criteria would allay the public's fears but would also be manageable from a Department of Justice and Equality perspective. We have found increasingly that the people with whom we are speaking and working are here long term. They are making a contribution and working and many, though not all, are paying taxes. We are not talking about recent arrivals. A regularisation such as this, particularly one with a probationary period, allows an opportunity for the Department to administer the scheme. It is almost like a safety valve which will allow the scheme to be administered and for people in that period of time to abide by certain criteria. This is in the proposal also. We felt that four years was a fair period. Choices will have to be made, potentially, by the Minister for Justice and Equality and her Department on the further detail for the administration of the scheme. It is not a once-off amnesty as such because a probationary period is built in.

Ms Edel McGinley:

It has not been borne out in research that the introduction of regularisation is a pull factor. Regularisation is, in fact, a pragmatic and fair response to a situation which has emerged over a long period of time. In general terms, the drivers of migration are economic and family factors. People move because of their economic needs and because they have family in the state already. There is one example of regularisation as a pull factor. This is along the border in the United States and is the only research which looks at the potential of regularisation. It is a very specific place and does not correlate to an island. There is, therefore, no relevant research that bolsters the pull-factor argument.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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What stands out to me in the research carried out is that almost 90% of the interviewees are working and that 80% have been here more than five years. I raise these questions because of misconceptions which exist in terms of the profile of the people and the families who are here. They are already making a huge economic contribution. They are in our schools and have hopes and dreams and want to make a huge contribution to our future. Will the witnesses elaborate on this?

Ms Helen Lowry:

We interviewed 540 undocumented migrants. Some 87% were in employment and 66.5% were with the same employer for more than two years. Almost 30% were in the same job for longer than five years. We were surprised ourselves by the last two statistics in terms of length of time with the same employer. We have found consistently that people are in medium to low-wage work but they are carrying out essential work. At the moment, considering our projections, they are employed in sectors that are essential to the function of the economy and society. They are working in the care sector, which Mr. Montenegro mentioned, and in the restaurant and catering industry. They are involved in domestic work, looking after older people, children and people with special needs. They are in cleaning and maintenance jobs. People are in all types of jobs. We have found, categorically, that the vast majority of people are working.

Not all people were paying tax, but over half had paid tax at some stage in their employment history. This says a lot because, as we know with the undocumented Irish in the US, there is an inherent risk, in terms of being detected by the state, in using one's social security number, or in Ireland's case one's PPS number, and fully disclosing and paying tax. People want to pay tax and make a contribution. As someone from the group reminded me yesterday, people want to work. They have no access to social welfare; it is not possible. People also do not want to access social welfare because, in the long term, if they are applying for citizenship, it will not be viewed favourably on a citizenship application. Therefore, in the first place, they cannot access social welfare and, in the second, they do not want to as they are here to work.

I am glad Deputy Mac Lochlainn heard Mr. Montenegro's interview this morning. He was asked what is the first thing he would do if he got his papers. He said the first thing he would do is go home and see his children. He would then, it is hoped, come back and finish his work here so his youngest can finish college. We would hear the same from the vast majority of undocumented Irish in the United States. This is the idea of circular migration, that is, being able to come and go. People have put down roots. This is the disconnect. People are here long term. We have found 81% were in Ireland a minimum of five years. Of that figure, 40% were here over eight years and one in five were here over a decade. These people are not recent arrivals. They have put down roots. There are people in the Visitors Gallery today who have two or three teenagers each. These teenagers have finished secondary school. One of the women has a daughter who was a straight A student. This girl is currently unable to go to college or work. She is having a very tough time, to say the least, because of this. In her mind, she is Irish; she grew up in Ireland. This is the other side to it. People put down roots and many are in employment.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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We have all heard of the undocumented Irish in the United States having to keep their heads down and having to keep away from the authorities. There is a constant fear. One of the things which struck me about the presentation was that women who are victims of domestic violence and crime could be fearful of going to An Garda Síochána because it would bring them to the attention of the authorities. Will the witnesses speak about the impact of this on families?

Ms Edel McGinley:

We recently had a case in which a woman's house was broken into and the family's savings were taken. They did not have a bank account so all of their savings were there. It was €900, which is a huge amount of money. They have a small child back home. They could not report this theft to the Garda for fear of detection and deportation. It is a huge issue. We come across many people who are in situations of domestic violence, but this fear exists. We come across people who are homeless. There is a vulnerability associated with being undocumented when it comes to earning money. People can be exploited by their employers. They are afraid to assert their rights in the employment relationship. There are also more serious situations relating to violence or theft.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I welcome Ms McGinley, Ms Lowry and Mr. Montenegro and thank them for their submissions to this committee. I am very supportive of the general principle of the regularisation scheme for undocumented migrants in Ireland.

The Migrant Rights Centre Ireland does excellent work and I commend its work. It is a very difficult job and from listening to Jayson Montenegro it can sometimes be very emotional because of some of the cases the centre deals with.

My first question is about the figure of between 20,000 to 26,000 undocumented migrants. How has this information been compiled? I refer to the submission to the committee which states that the MCRI has dealt with 2,644 undocumented migrants from 96 different countries. Where do the figures of 20,000 and 26,000 come from?

Ms Helen Lowry:

We were very aware that at times we were dealing with the tip of the iceberg in terms of undocumented people. We have very close relationships with undocumented people through trust and by word of mouth and therefore, we deal with a large number of people. As I said earlier, we did some work to arrive at a well-calculated estimation of the numbers. With regard to the figure of 20,000 to 26,000 persons, the information is on the public record with the Department of Justice and Equality. For example, I refer to information on the number of persons on deportation orders since 1999, the numbers of orders enforced and the numbers not enforced, which information is available to the public. We made a calculation of the number of people who left the country voluntarily in that period, counting those in what is called the section 3 process; those people who have applied for humanitarian leave to remain; those people who have been granted that leave; those who have been refused; and those who over-stay. These over-stayers are a more difficult category of persons to calculate. For example, the entire Irish undocumented population in the United States are probably visa over-stayers.

We based our calculations on a UK report which is included in the eight-page research paper we submitted to the committee, entitled, Ireland is Home. This contains a very good explanation of the research methodology. The UK population structure is more similar to ours than other countries. We used a residual methodology which has been widely accepted as an expert way of carrying out a well-estimated calculation of undocumented persons by looking at those whom we know are undocumented and then doing a percentage version from a residual methodology perspective. That is what we used, along with our own ongoing case management system in which we document every single person who comes through our doors. We have that kind of data for 14 years now. We combined all that information. There is a low, medium and high set of numbers. We were of the view that 20,000 to 26,000 was a well-informed estimate. In calculating the €183 million contribution, we took a median number between 20,000 and 26,000 and we used 23,000 as a figure for calculation of what the actual scheme could bring in.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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You are fairly satisfied that your figures are accurate.

Ms Helen Lowry:

We are very satisfied.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Please address remarks through the Chair.

Ms Edel McGinley:

I wish to add some information. Two European studies carried out in recent years point to this number. These studies were both commissioned by the European Commission and they have pointed to a figure of approximately 30,000. Our figures and those reported by the European Commission show a correlation. I refer to the CLANDESTINO project report which states the number at between 30,000 and 60,000, so we are at the lower end of that spectrum but we believe that the numbers are in the region we have stated and that information is supported by these two European projects.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I refer to the issue of human rights and diversity in the country. The delegates make a very strong economic argument for a regularisation of the situation. They state that the scheme would bring in an annual income in excess of €7.5 million through direct taxation and that a once-off fee would generate €11.5 million. They state that income from PRSI contributions would generate approximately €20 million. They state that over five years this has the potential to generate €180 million. This presents a very strong argument because in the current economic climate there are issues about revenue and income. Are the delegates confident about the figures on the income and revenue side of it?

Ms Helen Lowry:

I discussed this with Pablo Rojas Coppari who is our research officer. We have decided on a more conservative estimate because we do not wish it to seem that we have inflated the figures more than they are proportionately. It is important to show that this will cost money because any change costs money, but it may be that we cannot afford not to do it. Not only does it not cost a huge amount but it can bring in a significant amount of money.

A large number of people are outside the formal economy. We took the figure of 23,000 as a median and we applied the minium wage even though some undocumented people in Ireland are high income earners while many are not. Our current study calculated on the basis of people who were not paying tax. If people were to be brought into a scheme, into the formal economy, they will start paying tax. That is how we arrived at the figure of €7.5 million. We were looking at an administrative fee or fine of €500 for people to pay, similar to what is proposed in the United States. When this is multiplied by 23,000 people, the sum is €5 million.

This does not take into consideration the fact that if people enter a regularisation scheme and they are given a temporary residence while that scheme is administered, they will probably go home. This is what happened in Jayson's case. That will require payment for a visa. The cost of a visa paid once a year by half of the 23,000 people could easily generate €2.3 million. The figure of €5 million is conservative. People must also pay an annual fee to GNIB over five years in order to keep their GNIB card in order and this amounts to €300 a year at the moment. There are additional figures but we wanted to show that while there may be cost implications, the economic benefits are far greater. It is both an economic and a moral imperative. Ireland is losing out on revenue and money is being wasted. We are benefiting to some extent from people's labour but we are missing out on the revenue generated by their tax contribution.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I have a third question which I will address to Jayson Montenegro. I wish to ask about his own and his family's experience. I was very moved by his statement that when he first left his youngest child was five and that he kept asking Jayson when was he was coming back; he is 17 now and he has not stopped asking. The Dáil is currently debating the Children and Family Relationships Bill. There must have been a significant negative impact on Jayson, on his family and on his extended family.

Mr. Jayson Montenegro:

There has been a significant impact on both me and my children. I missed them when they were growing up. When they are sick they call me and I cannot do anything. At Christmas my son always asks me, "Dad, it is another Christmas again. Can you come home? Do I know you, Dad?" That is a difficult question for me. "Do I know you, Dad?" It is like my life stops when I hear that question because I do not know how to answer it. I always say to him that it is for his future and to support day-to-day living for my family. When my father passed away this month last year that was the hardest time in my life which I will never forget. My Mum telephoned me to tell me I needed to pray and after two minutes she told me that my Dad had passed away. I do not know what to do. The hardest time was when I saw my father in his coffin on Skype. It broke my heart. There is a knife in my heart that I cannot remove. I want to go home but my Mum said to me, "What about the future of your children? Can you support it?"

I wanted to see my father in the coffin but what about the future for my children?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Montenegro.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We may call Mr. Montenegro again if we need to do so.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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It is important that the witnesses have come before the committee today, and I thank them for being here. Deputy McGrath complimented Migrant Rights Centre Ireland on its work, and I thank Mr. Montenegro for bearing witness.

I was a documented migrant for a number of years before I became a citizen, but I never felt threatened in terms of becoming undocumented. I felt that was because I was from the United States of America, I was white, privileged and middle class. Equality issues arise here along with human rights issues in terms of the ethical imperative to examine the area.

I listened to Mr. Montenegro as he spoke. I participated in my father's last rites through telephone. I cannot imagine not having been able to have gone to his funeral though, so I offer him my sympathy in that regard.

I have many questions but I will put three. First, has Mr. Montenegro had engagement with the Department of Justice and Equality, and what have those discussions resulted in with regard to his proposals?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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If I may, another way of putting that question would be to ask what is blocking movement on this issue. Would that be fair?

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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Yes.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Lowry want to come in on that?

Ms Helen Lowry:

I will, and our director, who previously was involved in the campaign, which is almost five years old, might comment as well. As our numbers grew and we started to research what a solution would look like, we had a proactive engagement with the previous Administration and the previous Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter. The group has been before the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality regarding the introduction of a regularisation. It has been difficult to get the issue up the political agenda. We had a proactive engagement with members of this committee recently. We have good working relationships with civil servants in the Department of Justice and Equality because of our drop-in centre and because we are at the coalface.

We got feedback on some of our proposals in terms of the possibilities, the cost and the time it would take, so we went back to the drawing board and looked at our regularisation proposal in that period. The Administration then changed, including some of the relationships. There was a turnover in terms of staff, and we now have a new Minister for Justice and Equality. We are in a new phase around some of that, so it has taken us a little while to get to where we are now.

Ms Edel McGinley:

We are meeting the Minister for Justice and Equality next Monday, so that is a very welcome development. We have been trying to meet her for some time.

In terms of engaging with the Department of Justice and Equality in the past and the civil servant end of it, we have a good working relationship because we would have campaigned for the introduction of what was the undocumented workers scheme. That responded to people who had fallen out of the system through no fault of their own. That was a very welcome development, but there is resistance from within the Civil Service regarding the implementation of something like that. I cannot pretend there is not, and political will is needed to drive it forward. That is where we need to get to because there are some blocks within the Civil Service to advancing that.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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That is helpful. The witnesses have two recommendations for action, one of which is directed to us to engage, appoint a rapporteur and compile recommendations. If we were to decide to do that, do they have any advice on who we should bring before this committee? Has other research been done in Ireland? Are they the only ones who have done that? They might comment on that.

Ms Edel McGinley:

We are the only organisation working on this issue. We work with the trade unions and others who are very supportive of it. We have more than 40 organisations in support of this proposal.

There is no research on it in the Irish context. The Senator would have to look to European experts and bringing in organisations at a European level, although there would not be a large number of interest groups to invite. There are groups which are interested in and support this area of work, but we do the bulk of the work in terms of supporting undocumented migrants in Ireland.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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Would the witnesses comment on their proposals and how they might interact with other schemes? They mentioned direct provision a few times in their presentation, and that is being reviewed, but how can we move forward with a regularisation scheme when there are all the other challenges in terms of the direct provision issue? Could they comment on that?

Ms Helen Lowry:

All of these conversations are happening in the absence of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill. We are without that overarching legislation, and that is probably why we are having some of the conversations we have had about immigration reform and single procedure. This scheme does not require legislation. There is a proposal to clear the backlog, and people in direct provision would be supportive of that. We see the two schemes as complementary, but what we are putting out there is more comprehensive. It is not just for certain types. It is the concept of being undocumented, and we are saying one of the primary criteria would be length of time in the State followed by a probationary period. We do not believe that would be confusing but the devil would be in the detail, and we can have that conversation if we get down to the fine detail of what it would look like in its roll-out and the implication it might or might not have for people with ongoing applications.

We believe the current review of direct provision is timely in that we are now almost two decades into inward migration from a humanitarian and an economic perspective, and we cannot afford to ignore these issues. It is timely and because it does not require legislation, it is an opportunity to examine it.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms McGinley want to add to that?

Ms Edel McGinley:

I would make one further point. There are people in the direct provision system who are undocumented, and this clearly corresponds to that. They may be on a deportation order, for whatever reason, that has not been enforced, so there is definitely a crossover. They have to be mindful of each other, but there is a great opportunity in this because one probably will be enacted in the course of this Government's term.

Ms Helen Lowry:

I will make another point regarding Senator Zappone's question about groups or expertise. There is expertise at a global level to which we would have access in terms of the Migration Policy Institute and others who have examined different forms of regularisation. We have done a snapshot of that and used what we felt was the most relevant to it in developing our own regularisation work over the years. There are others too. We are also a member of the Platform for International Cooperation on Undocumented Migrants, PICUM. Our director is on the board, so there is that linkage as well.

Katherine Zappone (Independent)
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I would be in favour, in principle, of the witnesses' proposals for regularisation.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms McGinley, Ms Lowry and Mr. Montenegro for their input. I and my party support the concept of a scheme for the undocumented. Will the witnesses expand on the figure of 26,000 in terms of the geographical spread, if they have any detail on that? I presume the vast majority of those are urban and Dublin based. If they have any detail on the spread across the regions also-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses might answer the first question and we can come back to the second one. Do they have any idea of the geographical spread?

Ms Helen Lowry:

Our research was carried out throughout Ireland through our members and people involved in the campaign, so a lot of it was in the greater Dublin area, but also it was through word of mouth and through communities, which is a great way of getting the word out. For example, Mr. Montenegro has many friends and colleagues in Cork, so it was all-Ireland research. I do not have the breakdown but it was predominately the greater Dublin area.

We know well from our drop-in centre and because between one third and a half of the people coming through our doors each year are undocumented that they are living and working in towns throughout the country. We have people coming up from Mayo to get advice and information. We handle a great number of phone calls. We believe it is not just an urban phenomenon. I have received many calls from my home town of Ballina in County Mayo because people know I work with the Migrant Rights Centre.

They work on everything from hotel and catering to community development work but are undocumented and looking for advice. It is definitely not a phenomenon from a big city. Did the Deputy want a breakdown of the figures?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, if that is possible.

Ms Helen Lowry:

It is possible to calculate the number of people on deportation orders since the enactment of the Immigration Act 1999. There have been 22,459 deportation orders signed, of which 4,564 were enforced. Therefore, we can estimate that there were 17,895 non-enforced deportation orders in Ireland. We can also estimate that the rate of voluntary return of migrants is 13.8%. That is sourced from ongoing meetings with the Department of Justice and Equality and data we have been able to glean from the Department. This means 2,470 people of the estimated 17,895 non-enforced deportation orders would have left Ireland voluntarily. Therefore, an estimated 15,425 people have non-enforced deportation orders in Ireland. That is an informed estimate.

With regard to people who overstay a visa, that is a more difficult figure to calculate, as I mentioned earlier. As the committee can see from our research, over 90% of people we surveyed were not in a formal process with the State. They are just getting on with their lives, like the Irish in the United States. They are not in a process of legally doing something about their position. I do not want to bore people to tears but this is important. Those who overstay their visas are undetected migrants in the State, which include tourists, people from non-visa requirement countries, student visa holders and others. We can make the data available to the committee afterwards. If we use coefficients from research conducted by Gordon et alin 2009, entitled "Economic Impact on London and UK Economy of an Earned Regularisation of Irregular Migrants to the UK", we can make a very informed estimate of the number of undetected migrants in Ireland. We do not really use such language, although it is in the report. The research identifies a coefficient to calculate the number of undetected migrants based on the numbers of undocumented migrants known to the authorities. It is a residual method. The study was pioneered in the UK but it offers the most appropriate measurement tool as the UK has the most similar immigration system, geographic boundaries and immigration flows to Ireland.

From this we were able to examine the 15,000 cases I mentioned with respect to deportation orders, as well as other data from the Department of Justice and Equality, to do a coefficient sample. Based on the residual methodology, the following calculations can be made. A low-estimate coefficient, at 9.58%, would have 1,796 cases and a medium coefficient, at 22%, would have 4,279 migrants. This may be corresponded with numbers of undocumented people coming through the drop-in centre. A high-estimate coefficient, at 36%, has been chosen, resulting in an estimate of 6,761 undetected migrants in Ireland. We selected the coefficient and used it to calculate the numbers. If we add the undetected numbers to the cases we know, we can extrapolate the number of between 20,000 and 26,000, depending on whether we use the low, medium or high coefficient.

The element of children is important. Coefficients were obtained from the study to calculate the number of UK-born children as a percentage of the overall undocumented population. These coefficients, when applied to various estimates of undocumented migrants in Ireland, generated the following figures. There is a figure of 2,400 for the low coefficient, 3,672 for the medium coefficient and 5,100 for the high coefficient. That is why we have indicated consistently that we estimate there is between 2,000 and 5,000 undocumented children in Ireland. That is very difficult to estimate as children would not be registered anywhere and would not be until they are older. That is some of the rigour behind the figures.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That is quite scientific.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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What is the experience of the most recent scheme to regularise the undocumented? Is it a European or international scheme?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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What is the best practice internationally?

Ms Edel McGinley:

Our most recent scheme was the undocumented workers scheme in 2009, which responded to people who fell out of the work permit system. It was a very successful scheme which was time-bound and limited. It has been put on a statutory footing and is now called the reactivation scheme, which is currently being administered by the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation.

One of the most recent schemes was in Belgium. It was a broad-based scheme. It had problems because it operated as an amnesty, which led to a major backlog. It took approximately two years to clear that because each case had to be assessed at the point of entry. We are proposing with the probationary period that two years will be given for the Department to assess schemes over time; it will not be a once-off consideration that could lead to a bottleneck. That happened in the Belgian scheme, and three years afterwards some people were still not regularised, despite an entitlement to same.

Another learning element comes from the type of immigration status given to a person when he or she is regularised. Part of the Belgian scheme gave people work permits and others full access to the labour market. Those who were given work permits became undocumented again as there were major problems with getting work permits and unscrupulous employers. What is given to people when they become regularised is very important, as we either set people up to fail or achieve something. The key learning elements from the Belgian regularisation were not to create a bottleneck and to give a stamp that helps people realise a method of being regularised properly.

Ms Helen Lowry:

There have been over 40 large-scale regularisation processes across the European Union in the past ten years alone.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The witness may pass the information to the clerk if possible.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The scheme will give a stamp 4 at the end.

Ms Edel McGinley:

Yes.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McGinley mentioned the crossover between the undocumented and people in direct provision. My understanding is that people in direct provision are not undocumented because they are already in a process.

Ms Edel McGinley:

There is a backlog in direct provision of ongoing cases. There are also people who may have received negative decisions. A person may start with an asylum claim, go to subsidiary protection and proceed to humanitarian leave to remain. If the humanitarian leave to remain application is unsuccessful, the case may be undocumented if the case began with seeking asylum. It may not be possible to return the person to the country from which they came. There is the principle of non-refoulement. There is a number of such countries. Some people on a deportation order may not be returned to the country of origin because of a number of different reasons and we consider such people to be undocumented as well. There is a crossover but we do not know its extent.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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How many people are under deportation orders but cannot be sent back because of strife or war in the home country?

Ms Edel McGinley:

We do not have those figures. It is very hard to know.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and Mr. Montenegro for sharing his story. I am sorry about the loss of his father. He is welcome today, as are the people in the Gallery. I wish I could say that as a nation we could be more welcoming to people, particularly those in direct provision. I have lost two members of my family in the past 14 months so I know how difficult it can be and must have been for Mr. Montenegro. I support the proposal in principle and I cannot understand why everybody does not show such support. Who does not support this and what are the reasons? I am not seeking names but are there groups which do not support it?

Why would anybody not support it?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We cannot identify or criticise anybody.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, I do not want them to name anybody.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I must make that very clear.

Ms Edel McGinley:

The State operates a managed migration system, and there are obviously considerations within that. I will not make the arguments for why managed migration is a good or bad thing. Until this becomes a political issue and there is political will behind it, the people who are there to develop and implement policies would be reticent to do so until they are directed by the Minister to do it. The only way they can be directed is if there is political will behind it. This is part of it. If this committee supports the regularisation, it would naturally mean that the civil servants must come up with a solution and move. Their role is to develop and implement an immigration system, unless they are told or directed otherwise. It is part of a managed migration system. In any managed migration system, all countries must do a regularisation. There are different types of regularisation in the lifetime of their immigration history. Some have to do more, because they do not get it right and they are bigger countries. America must do a major one and, as we said, there are 40 different ones across the European Union. The civil servants will react and respond to political will.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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What you are saying is that the Civil Service follows the policy decisions of the Minister, the Government and the Oireachtas.

Ms Edel McGinley:

Yes.

Ms Helen Lowry:

That is why we consider this presentation very important. The Justice for the Undocumented group now has 900 members. It was started with six people, including the man to my left and the woman to my right. There were four other individuals. I remember it well. Given that it has 900 members now, we believe this work is very important. It is a great deal more expensive to deport somebody. Our job is to make this a problem. People are not causing trouble here. They are infringing on immigration policy and it is an administrative infringement. The other issue is that we believe this is a good idea because it makes more sense economically. From a Civil Service perspective, many would be very aware that this is a reality, but doing something about it requires political will, as Edel said.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I greatly admire the work the MRCI does. I regularly meet people in my clinic who are in this situation. It might be a work, student or holiday visa that has run out, there is a break and they do not know where to go next. I have encountered several people who have had people supposedly helping them with their paperwork and charging them for it. Now, when somebody comes to me with that problem whom I cannot help, I send them to the MRCI because I know there are people who are charging for help with the paperwork. One person who came to me was told by somebody else to get a letter from me saying that the person had worked for me and that I was happy with their work. Obviously, I could not write that letter as I am not a registered employer and the other person had not paid tax. Do the witnesses encounter that on a regular basis? Are the undocumented being exploited like that all the time?

Ms Helen Lowry:

Absolutely. We are working with people who are more on the margins of the labour market. If one is non-EU migrant one requires permission to live and work in the country. We have found a third party recruitment problem over the years, particularly for people who are in harder to reach sectors and jobs. People are working where generally they are not members of the trade union movement because they are in less regulated sectors. It is not all of them, but many of the people we are working with are more vulnerable to non-compliant employers, unscrupulous employers and bad recruitment practices, whether that is a third party, a company or individuals. That has probably been part of the migration journey since the beginning of time. One thinks of Irish labourers going abroad and their first couple of weeks' salary being given to the person who got them the job on the site. There is a little of that as well.

In terms of bad practice and, perhaps, people going somewhere to get legal advice and paying for it, or poor representation in that area, we have reported and do report people, particularly if they are a registered firm or registered practitioners of the law. There are places where one can make those complaints and have people blacklisted.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am glad to hear that. Is the MRCI only based in Dublin? Does it ever do a type of roving clinic around the country? People cannot always travel to Dublin to call to the MRCI and it is not ideal for somebody who does not have good English to speak on the telephone.

Ms Edel McGinley:

We do and we do not. We do outreach to certain places around the country, such as Galway and Cork. We did it in Gort in the past because it had a very high undocumented population. We engage with many different organisations around the country. In Meath and other places, we might hold information sessions for people. However, we engage a great deal with the citizens information network and we provide a support service to that network and to the Citizens Information Board, CIB, so if there are queries locally we support those queries. We do not have to be in every location because there are already people in those locations and we support their work. We also work closely with community sector organisations which might also be on the ground to engage vulnerable migrants and to work with those migrants.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses would be very welcome in Athlone.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I have a few questions. You mentioned that all persons resident in Ireland for four years should be eligible to register in the scheme, and three years for people with children. What about people with children who are here for less than three years? What is your proposal for those?

Ms Helen Lowry:

That is a very good question. The Justice for the Undocumented campaign group had many discussions about this with members and others. It is probably the line which we can organise behind and is politically possible. It is also realistic. Irregular migration or being undocumented is a global reality and after a period of time most countries realise that they must do something about it. We have been saying this for some time in our work in this area, but felt we had to put forward criteria that were realistic. We tossed a few different ideas around, but we felt that in the case of somebody who was here for six months, a year or less than two years it was very hard to advocate that they should be in the same situation as somebody who has been here for 12 years. That is not to say that somebody who has been here for less than four years should not be eligible for this scheme, but that is something that requires further consideration.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Do you have an estimate of the numbers involved? You have given an assessment of between 20,000 and 26,000 for the overall number. How many people are here for less than four years?

Ms Helen Lowry:

Again, that is a good question. I refer you to a recent analysis we did of our drop-in centre. We dealt with almost 2,700 people in the period May 2009 to October 2014, which is a substantial number of individuals. They came from 96 countries and were living here for an average of eight years. We find that people are less likely to be here for a shorter period. Since the enlargement of the European Union and managed migration policy, in terms of work permits and eligible categories, Ireland is no longer a country of inward migration to the same extent it was in the so-called boom years. The figures for non-EU migrants migrating to Ireland to work have reduced substantially. There is still a high percentage of international students coming to live and work here, but they do not necessarily end up undocumented or outside of their status.

Ms Edel McGinley:

To add to that, as I said earlier migration is driven by employment and family reunification. When the recession started, people knew there was not much employment here. We saw a reduction in those networks of migration. We know from our drop-in centre who was coming here. There was not a large number of people coming here after that time, but there are some and they need consideration also.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Another issue that arises repeatedly when somebody applies to stay here is the cost to the State of health, education, in particular, and possibly other social services, such as social welfare. Have you factored those costs into the calculations you put before the committee earlier?

Ms Helen Lowry:

The big one is probably social protection, in terms of benefits.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Education at third level in particular would be quite expensive.

Ms Helen Lowry:

The issue with social protection is that it is dependent on the person's contributions. Right now, people are just not able to qualify. A decision might need to be made about the two year probationary period. Access to social welfare is earned, so it will not kick in until down the line when people are in the country long term, and have their status and their stamp 4.

In terms of education, we previously worked very closely with the children of non-EU migrants through the migrant education access campaign, MEA, on access to third level. A person has to be a citizen in order to qualify for what are called free fees, which are no longer really free due to the level of the registration fee. We did a good costed analysis of how much it would cost the then Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, to implement changes in that regard and it was a fraction of the education budget. It is really about allowing people who are in the country long term to qualify. Again, it probably would not apply straight away, as parents would have to be legally resident. We would like to see some change around that whereby, for example, somebody who is legally in the country for ten years would have some right of access to the free fees category. However, it still would not apply to undocumented migrants because those young people would not have been legally resident. We probably need to go back to the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2010, and there needs to be a conversation between the Department of Education and Skills and the Department of Justice and Equality. The bigger matter is that the system is still built around citizenship.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for being here today.

Ms Helen Lowry:

I would like to say again on behalf of the justice for the undocumented campaign and the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland that we are really happy to be here today. We also appreciate the time taken by the clerks of the committee, who have been very good to us. It is a big day out for us; people have taken time off work just to be in the Visitors Gallery. We are working very hard around St. Patrick's Day and for the rest of this year to have momentum on this issue. Some very insightful questions were asked about why this has not gotten further around the St. Patrick's Day period and that is why we are here today. We are hoping there will be political will behind this now. The solutions are quite pragmatic.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Thank you all for being here. This committee is extraordinarily busy, with a significant agenda and a lot of legislation and other work ongoing. It has been very interesting and insightful to hear the contributions today and we will certainly take them under consideration in the next while. Ms Lowry mentioned a number of issues regarding a rapporteur among others and we will certainly take a look at that. We will now go into private session for housekeeping matters.