Mr. Seamus Coffey:

I thank the Senator for his contributions. One thing I would be wary of when looking at the people in work who are at risk of poverty is that more than half of them are self-employed. The at risk of poverty rate for employees is relatively low and Ireland is second lowest in the EU. Ireland has a high rate of almost 20% for those at risk of poverty among the self-employed which is where a lot of the low earnings exist. The hourly pay rates are a bit incidental to the self-employed because they must earn money through their own productivity and through finding customers. Low pay in the self-employed sector is probably far higher and is an issue that equally needs to be addressed.

In regard to where can Ireland get the money to pay for services that we wish to provide, we have one of the lower Government revenue rates in the EU. There are two key differences between Ireland and the rest of the EU. First, as I have already mentioned, is Ireland's relatively low rate of income tax on low to middle incomes. Most EU countries would have a substantially higher rate. Second, Ireland is right at the bottom in terms of employers' social insurance. Most countries would use such insurance to have a far more extensive state run pension system than we have in Ireland. One could consider the low rate as a form of deferred pay where people's employers pay into the system of social security. Ireland is unusual due to having a flat rate social welfare pension system. One needs a flat rate for the base but most countries would augment that funding with pay-related pensions. I believe we can collect substantially more money from this sector and there is scope to raise social insurance contributions. What most countries use social insurance for is to improve pension provision. As we know, pension provision in Ireland is relatively low. Our basic pension is €230 a week. For many people, if they are dependent on that sum, it can mean a substantial drop in income if they have not put aside money for a private pension. This matter is something that can be addressed.

Let me turn to services such as housing, child care and health care. Housing generates a lot of attention at the moment but many of the issues tend to arise at the margin. I refer to the homeless and people who suffer rent increases. By and large, housing and the standard of housing in Ireland would be some of the highest in the EU but clearly we have issues.

In regard to health care, an important aspect we can focus on is what is meant by "universal". In Ireland, universal tends to mean free but most countries do not take the same approach. They take universal to mean treating everybody the same. Over the past number of weeks comparisons have been made between Ireland and France. The French health care system has considerable merit but everybody pays for everything in that country. The French system is massively subsidised but everyone makes a financial contribution. Its subsidies come from a very progressive tax system which we have but we do not have universality in terms of treatment.

The key issue here is the minimum wage, social welfare and how to help people. We should seek to help people. One issue is to focus on what the Government can do and to reform our social welfare system. We have a social welfare system that is very comprehensive but could be better. We break up people into too many categories such as unemployment, disability, illness, lone parents and carers. A more comprehensive system where everybody is treated the same would be far better. If we are going to set a basic minimum benchmark for what we want people to have in this society then we should ensure we give it to everybody.