Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Vice Chairman and wish him success on his accession to the throne.

I compliment Mr. McCarthy on his address and paper. He paints a very grim picture, about which there is no doubt. A few issues remain that worry me a little. To what extent does he think the outcome of the next British general election might be affected by the decision to hold a referendum? It will have a considerable impact one way or the other. This has not been included in the equation in any of the discussions I have heard.

I note Mr. McCarthy's speculation about Ireland and the United Kingdom ultimately removing themselves from the European Union. That would be a disaster following on a disaster. It would have huge negative consequences for Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union. In terms of European unity, it would have a huge detrimental impact in that we would be reversing the concept of the European Union devised in the 1950s.

I do not agree with Mr. McCarthy's assessment of some other European countries, Norway for instance. It had other reasons for remaining aloof from the European Union - mainly to do with resources - and it was a shrewd decision on their part not to do so, but, of course, everything does not stay the same forever. Even though it will have very considerable resources long into the future, fossil fuels may not be as useful, vital or pivotal as they are in the future. That forms another part of the issue.

I am certain that if we see a slow fragmentation of what we have come to know as the European Union, we will see its disappearance. That is the only logical conclusion one can come to. That is why some members of the committee have advocated holding a series of meetings to address the issue of euroscepticism which means different things to different people? What does it mean to the United Kingdom? Usually we hear the words, "we want less of Europe and more national input and influence." How do we do this in a union of 28 countries? Does every country wish to superimpose its own will on the European Union and does every country have to agree with this? Things do not work that way in the real world - unfortunately.

One of the things we must keep in mind is that Switzerland, which is much in the news in regard to other matters at the present time, happens to be almost in the centre of Europe. Unlike Ireland, it is not on the periphery, so there were compelling reasons as to why it should have certain concessions that were almost equal to membership of the EU, with the exception of not being able to influence decisions at the centre. They have got that and they lobbied hard for it. Some of us were here when they did that and it was seen as a concession. I cannot see the same thing happening in this case. I have a very sad feeling of late that a conclusion has been reached in the minds of some people across Europe that we do not want that kind of Europe anymore, we want a different, re-nationalised Europe. If that happens, it will also be a political disaster. Mr. McCarthy painted the picture of two political disasters - a disaster from this country's point of view, a disaster from Britain's point of view and ultimately a disaster from a European point of view. Where does Europe go and why do we not address what appear to be fundamental concerns expressed by people across Europe?

Everybody wants more freedom of expression. When one is in a union, one cannot have the same freedom one had before. Do we now agree with the concept of a union at all? Do not forget that the fact that we do not have a single currency across Europe is an indication on the part of some in the Union. Some may not qualify and some may not have the fiscal stability and stamina to enter the eurozone but, as I have pointed out before, I would like to see how it would work if the United States had a multiplicity of currencies. It could never and would never work. I strongly urge that sane people across Europe will do two things: address the consequences of an exit of some of the major players and address the fundamental issues - real issues, not imaginary ones - of European scepticism across the European Union, including in this country.