Mr. Tom Boland:

I agree with Senator O'Donnell. There is no question that teaching in higher education has been taken for granted in the past. However, I think it is being taken considerably less for granted now, and this will be the case in the future. The promotion system is part of that. I will answer Senator Power's questions when she returns to the meeting. I will also answer Deputy McConalogue's questions about the technological university, TU, in the south east. I will ask Mr. Fergal Costello to comment in a moment on Senator O'Donnell's question about apprenticeship and universities as he is very knowledgeable on that issue.

Senator Craughwell mentioned a few issues and he asked why we have mergers before TU status is granted. There are two motivating factors for the policy decision to develop technological universities; one is to do with the fact that Ireland has, based on its population, a very large number of institutions - I was going to say "too many", but what is too many? - with seven universities and 14 institutes of technology. The policy view was that our system could be better if there were fewer institutions. There is no proposal currently to merge any of the universities, but certainly with regard to the institutes of technology, given their size in particular, it was seen that some consolidation - some merging of those institutions into a smaller number - would have value for the institutions concerned, for the regions they serve and for their students. One of the objectives of the TU concept is to give a dynamic to that merger system, but the mergers have a value in themselves, even if they do not materialise into a technological university.

There is another motivating feature for a technological university. Some institutes of technology have the capacity to operate at university level, right up from level six to level ten, and they do so within the technological space. For instance, in seeking to bring technological education up to the highest levels of university education, one could try to entice some of the existing universities into that space. It might be successful, and some of them are less or more technologically focused than others. However, it would take a long time to do so. One way of doing it would be to invite the institutions - those that believe they have the capacity to do so - to put themselves forward for technological university status. In that context, what we want are high-quality technological universities, and to a degree, quality is also predicated on size and on scale. There is a view that there are many very small institutions all over the world which are of the highest quality, and American institutions are often cited, many of which are fine endowments. Such institutions do in fact exist. However, in an Irish context, given our structure and the strengths and capacities of the institutes of technology, better technological universities would be created by bigger institutions. The only way this can be achieved is by bringing institutions together to achieve that kind of scale. With one possible exception, there is no institute of technology in the country that would be big enough to compete internationally as a technological university. There is an objective to rationalise and to reduce numbers, but in the context of the need for a merger before an institution can become a technological university, it is primarily to do with ensuring that what is created is something of substance, of scale and of quality.

Deputy McConalogue raised the question of the proposal for a technological university in the south east. We are all very well aware - because it has been very public - of the difficulties that the institutions are experiencing there. The Minister for Education and Skills has appointed Michael Kelly to review the situation with two institutes in particular. I am hopeful of an outcome that can bring the two institutes together, but I will not attempt to predict the outcome. However, the work being undertaken by Mr. Kelly is worth doing. There is great potential for those two institutes to become a technological university and I think it is worth exploring it in a good deal more detail before people reach any conclusion that it cannot happen.

On the question of further education and higher education, the Senator is singing our song. One of the strategic objectives that both the country and the education system need to have is much greater coherence in post-second-level education - to join up further education and higher education in a fundamental, structured and strategic way. I wish to stress that further education has a value in and of itself, but it also has a value in terms of the progression of young people from second level education into higher education. The regional clusters already have a particular role in this regard. The creation of pathways is one of the two priorities decided by the Minister for the clusters to achieve. Even one year into the process we are seeing some reasonable progress in this space, but a great deal more needs to be done to join up higher education and further education so that there can be that kind of seamless transition to which the Senator referred from one sector to the other, and so that students will know in advance, if they enter into a programme in a further education college, that if they wish, their trajectory is through the institutes of technology at level six and upwards and towards university.

The funding of mergers was mentioned. The reality is that funding is, to say the least, very tight. The HEA has provided some funding for the restructuring of the sector - not specifically for mergers but for restructuring of the sector - of the order of €3 million for the past couple of years. International experience indicates that mergers can be expensive. It is a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation; I am not quite sure whether it is the case that if funding is available, mergers are very expensive, but if funding is not available they can be done, as so often has to be the case, in a more innovative and shoestring way. So far, our experience with restructuring is quite positive. Great progress is being made even within the very significant constraints. The HEA has been able to give some small amount of funding but I do not have any expectation that this will increase. The challenge for us will be to try to maintain that small amount of funding.

I accept Senator Power's point about clusters and their geographical scale. To be effective, a cluster will have to be able to provide its region with a comprehensive suite of programmes. This cannot mean that campus A is doing engineering and campus B is doing physics and so on.

Equally, we cannot have troops of students going across the country on this two-day journey between Letterkenny and Galway, as was mentioned. I would not discount the value and use of technology, but ultimately clusters will only be effective if they provide for the needs of their region, however they do that. The geographical issues are there to be solved, rather than being absolute bars to progress.

If I have missed anything, Mr. Costello might pick me up on it. I will come back to him in a moment on apprenticeships. He might also talk about the shortage of places on the CAO, which is breaking news.

Senator Power mentioned the broadening of entry routes. A great deal of work and effort is being put in by the Department of Education and Skills, the institutions and various agencies into the whole transitions agenda. A good deal of progress is being made and it is expected to announce progress on a number of strands around Easter. In fairness, the institutes of technology and universities have engaged well with the process. As regards the specific broadening of entry routes, I would have to allow that there has not been enough progress. It is something we will be taking up with the institutions. In fact, I would go so far as to say that entry routes may well have increased since we started the process, although there has been some reduction lately. I consider this to be important in terms of assisting young people in choosing their courses, and also addressing some of the retention issues that were mentioned earlier. It is on the agenda therefore. I do not want to be critical because it is complex, but it is no secret that I would welcome greater progress on that.

As regards our dropping down the rankings, it has to be a concern because no matter how we rationalise it, our rationalisations will not necessarily be heard. If they are heard, they will not necessarily be believed either by international students or by potential international investors where this whole ranking matter seems to be getting a certain level of traction. I would not want to overstate it, though. Most well-informed people, including students, understand the limitations of international rankings. It is, therefore, something we have to bear in mind. To some extent, it may not be much more than a cosmetic exercise, but it is there and we must recognise it. However, as a national policy in terms of the organisation and structure of our higher education system, we would be unwise to pursue a ranking position either for any particular institution or any range of institutions. What we want from our higher education institutions is to be the best they can be in the interests of Ireland and its students. If, at the same time, they shoot up the rankings that is a bonus, but it is not necessarily a national objective for us to be at any particular ranking point. I do not want to dismiss it totally, however, as it is still something to which we must have some regard.

As regards having our own system of rankings, it is a sound idea. To some extent we have that. In a document accompanying this report to the Minister we published detailed information, including spider diagrams, around the relative performance of various institutions and parts of the sector on issues to do with access, research and international students. In fact, one can see quite well how institutions are performing, one against the other.

As part of our performance funding piece - we are going to model this - we are also considering whether or not we should have some element of internal competition for a small proportion of funding. In that way, the institutions that perform best vis-à-vistheir compacts and national objectives, would get more funding. However, there are a lot of complexities and potential perverse incentives in such a strategy, which we are considering before we would roll it out. Performance funding will be done this year and will apply to budgets in 2016.

I will now ask Mr. Costello to address the apprenticeship issue and the CAO points.