John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are the minutes of the meeting of 11 December 2014 agreed?

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Do we have any further information on the national paediatric hospital? Did those involved come back with anything?

Clerk to the Committee:

They have not come back yet but I will follow up again today. There were to come back.

A Deputy:

Is there anything from Bord na gCon?

Clerk to the Committee:

There is nothing from Bord na gCon either.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Is there anything from Gerard Ryan?

Clerk to the Committee:

No, he has not written back.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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He has not responded to the dossier. Is that the case?

Clerk to the Committee:

No, he has not responded.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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He has received the transcript.

Clerk to the Committee:

I have confirmed that he has received the transcript.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I wish to ask about another item. I asked before about the Dublin Docklands Developments Authority. After representatives from the authority appeared before the committee a number of items needed to be addressed urgently. Do we have any information on that, Chairman?

Clerk to the Committee:

The up-to-date information I have is that the 2013 accounts were signed off by the authority this week. They will go to the Comptroller and Auditor General for signing. We should be in a position to call representatives from the authority in after Christmas. Once the accounts are signed off they should be available to us. I will schedule an early meeting with them.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I have no wish to cut across either you, Chairman, or the clerk but I am calling for this to be scheduled for January and I will explain why. NAMA and Dublin City Council have moved to take over the strategic development zone area in the docklands. Nevertheless, it appears that the Dublin Docklands Development Authority is still disposing of property. It would seem those in the organisation are using the dying days of their authority to dispose of prime property sites. It is a matter of consideration as to how and why that should be happening. Before any further sales goes through it would be appropriate to have them before the committee to explain what exactly is going on in respect of taxpayers' money.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are there any other matters? No.

I will set out correspondence since our meeting on Thursday, 11 December 2014. First we will deal with correspondence from Accounting Officers. No. 3A.1 is correspondence dated 10 December 2014 received from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Department of Education and Skills, re follow-up to our meeting of 15 May. This is to be noted and published. Next is correspondence dated 9 December from Brendan Ryan, Accounting Officer of the Courts Service regarding follow-up to our meeting of 23 October. This is to be noted and published. This correspondence is relevant to our forthcoming report on wards of court. Deputy Deasy has queried the cost of cancelled court sittings. I suggest we write to the Courts Service and ask for a detailed analysis of those costs. No. 3A.3 is correspondence dated 10 December from Mr. Jim Breslin, Secretary General, Department of Health. This is a follow-up to our meeting on 6 November 2014. This is to be noted and published.

Individual correspondence is next. No. 3B.1 relates to terms and conditions of employment at UCC. This to be noted and forwarded to the Department of Education and Skills for a note on the matters raised. No. 3B.2 is correspondence received from the Department of Finance regarding liability for local property tax. This is to be noted and a copy forward to Ms Naughton, who raised the original query. No. 3B.2 is correspondence received from a HSE employee, who wants to remain anonymous, regarding the extent to which many staff of the HSE have received upgrades. This is to be noted and forwarded to the Department of Health and the HSE for a note on the matters raised. No. 3B.4 is correspondence received from the Institute of Technology, Tralee regarding money spent on the design of Kerry sports academy. This is to be noted. Is this to be published?

Clerk to the Committee:

We can publish that. That is no problem.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No. 3B.5 is correspondence received from Seán Ó Foghlú, Department of Education and Skills, regarding report received anonymously regarding CIT. This is to be noted and published.

No. 3C is correspondence relevant to today's meeting. No. 3C.1 is correspondence received on 17 December 2014 from Brendan McDonagh, chief executive of NAMA, regarding opening statement. This is to be noted.

No. 4 relates to reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting of 11 December 2014. They are listed from 4.1 to 4.8 and there is a clear audit in each case. All of these accounts are to be noted.

Our work programme is now on the screen. Our next meeting is on 22 January. It will deal with the financial statements of the HEA and the Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report No. 85, relating to accountability and governance at the National College of Art and Design. The part of the meeting dealing with the financial statements of the HEA will include the various institutes of technology. Is that correct?

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes, we can raise broader issues.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We should flag this for the HEA and the Department of Education and Skills. The issues in respect of the various colleges brought to our attention through correspondence will be raised with them on the day. Will representatives from the Department of Education and Skills be present?

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will the deputation include the Accounting Officer?

Clerk to the Committee:

Yes. I will check that.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We should ask the Accounting Officer about it because there are several issues that still have not been dealt with. It is like the issue raised by members earlier in respect of the paediatric hospital and Bord na gCon. There are outstanding matters to be dealt with by the Department of Education and Skills. First, we should agree the work programme for the next meeting. We have already agreed to Deputy Costello's proposal for an early meeting with the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. We will fit that in sometime in January, if we can, depending on the availability of the DDDA. Is there any comment on the work programme?

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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My query is not on the work programme but on other issues.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Let us deal with the work programme first. Any other business is the next item. Is the work programme agreed? Agreed.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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My first point relates to the correspondence from an anonymous member of the HSE. It would be useful to look at the response that we get from the health authorities when it comes back, because many of us suspect that more is spent on administration than front-line services in the HSE. If true, this affects the quality of service people get.

The second matter relates to the meeting last week. I was most unhappy with the response of the representatives of the Central Bank to the questions I put to them. I understand we have written to them to get a proper response. I am going to hold on this for a while, but if we do not get a satisfactory response I will ask that we write a letter of complaint to the Governor of the Central Back. The unwillingness or inability, whichever it was, of the representatives to answer questions was absolutely unacceptable as far as I am concerned.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to ask the clerk to check this by way of writing to the officials that were before the committee. In the case of some of the questions asked of them they were simply unable to answer, reluctant to answer or did not want to answer. I am unsure which it was. In any event, there was a question in respect of their role in the Central Bank.

I understand one of the officials knew about the background of the Newbridge Credit Union issue that was raised. We need to find out more about it because of the lack of information that was coming forward. We should first write and clarify and then we can take it from there.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The issue I was most frustrated by was their unwillingness to discuss why there were so many restrictions on credit union lending, which is a very important issue because it holds back our economy by making it difficult for people who want small loans to get on with their business. I felt it was an important question and an obvious question that they might have expected.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Because we were dealing with a particular fund on that day, the relevant officials to the question were here. We may need to clarify the issues the Deputy raised by writing to the Central Bank and determining the answers. Then, we can take it up at our January meeting.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Thank you.

Clerk to the Committee:

That is fine.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Under legislation, there is a restriction on the Governor of the Central Bank's accountability to the Committee of Public Accounts. There may be difficulty getting answers on any matter that is outside the scope of the credit institutions resolution fund.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Would it apply to the question I asked?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It could. It may relate to functions that are proper to the normal business of the Central Bank rather than to the credit institutions resolution fund. The Deputy may need to examine it before he phrases a letter.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It is a cause of great frustration, and that is why I raised the issue.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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On a related matter, there was a statement from the president of the Irish League of Credit Unions to the effect that it was going to invest €1 billion in the new housing strategy. It is related to lending matters and perhaps it could be included in the question as to how it envisaged this enormous amount of money, considering there are great restrictions on small and medium enterprises in terms of the lending practices.

Clerk to the Committee:

How that can happen will be part of the follow up that will be in the minutes of today's meeting. The committee will probably follow up on it in due course. There is a need to safeguard the funds of the credit unions so they can get a return and the money is not just sitting in banks. This matter arose last week. The Department of Finance has an involvement in it and we will raise it with both the Department and the Central Bank.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for my non-attendance yesterday. I was not aware the meeting had gone ahead. Before the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, comes in today, I ask that the committee consider bringing in some developers who have exited NAMA to discuss their experience and see the value or loss to the economy it has caused. I am not naming anybody in particular; several developers have exited NAMA. I would like that to go ahead in the new year.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday, some Members of the Oireachtas met with an individual. I am sorry about the mix up. I did not realise.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I, too, apologise for not being here. I thought it was on Tuesday and made arrangements for yesterday.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The meeting was very informative. I suggested it some time ago and maybe we can discuss it with the clerk and bring about some way of listening to their experience.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The timing is right. People have exited and it would be interesting to hear what they have to say.

Clerk to the Committee:

At the time, the Chairman raised it with me and we were concerned that if people were involved in legal action against NAMA, they would not want to be used as a vehicle. The danger was that NAMA might have taken enforcement action against them. We will examine it.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Many of them have gone through the system and come out the other end, and they are not all legal actions.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I would support it and we will find a way to arrange it early in the new year.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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That would be great, thank you.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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A number of pieces of correspondence have come in this morning and I will pass them on to the clerk of the committee. Although some of them have nothing to do with the Committee of Public Accounts, they are addressed to us and the clerk will have to write back. Last week, we received a reply from the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills about doing a report into Cork Institute of Technology, CIT, and the audit committee. It will go before the governing body in early December, after which the HEA will be appraised of the position. It is close to Christmas, and I would like to find out from the Department whether the investigation or report has been completed and whether it was conducted by independent people. Today, I received a registered letter containing another document relating to CIT. I ask the clerk of the committee to publish or circulate it. It raises very serious issues with which we will have to deal in the new year.

Clerk to the Committee:

There is a letter today, 3B.5, which deals with CIT. One of the issues the Chairman raised was whether the investigation was conducted by independent consultants, and Mr. Ó Foghlú has said it was. Although they are in correspondence with us, maybe we will raise it with them formally in January.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If you could. We received another letter today by registered post from HL Commodity Foods on an issue with which we were dealing and which Deputy Costello raised. We will circulate it to members. We dealt with the Irish Sports Council, ISC, and a letter arrived by courier yesterday evening. It is a detail of a reply to issues raised regarding Millstreet. At our meeting with the ISC, I felt it was agreed that an effort would be made, again, to mediate between the parties involved because there is an exposure to the State. This did not happen. In this correspondence, I am told that the people we asked to do it were busy with other matters. The committee asked that some form of mediation would take place and it is not good enough to send this letter by registered post the day before a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts because it was raised at a previous meeting. I ask the committee to agree to get in touch immediately and insist that the mediation we requested be encouraged, requested and done as soon as possible.

We have agreed our agenda for 22 January 2015, when we will deal with Special Report No. 85 of the Comptroller and Auditor General on accountability and governance of the National College of Art and Design and the financial statements of the Higher Education Authority. Today, we are dealing with No. 7, the 2013 financial statements of NAMA. I remind members that we can deal in a general way with NAMA, its accounts, activities, processes and procedures but not with individual cases.