Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We are discussing the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 26 - Education and Skills, for an amount of €103 million. Under Standing Order 161 the discussion must be confined to the items contained in the Supplementary Estimate and no discussion may be raised on the original Estimates, save in so far as it may be necessary to explain or illustrate the particular items under discussion.

Members will have an opportunity to review the additional allocations now being sought on an item-by-item basis, to focus on why they are being sought and to review the targets for the relevant items, the resources already made available for these items and the outputs and impacts of the activities concerned. Members have been circulated with the Department's brief and a brief prepared by the committee secretariat, which are intended to assist them in their consideration of each item.

I welcome the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy O'Sullivan, and her officials and now invite her to make her opening statement.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I thank members of the select sub-committee for this opportunity to discuss my Department’s requirement for a Supplementary Estimate of €103 million for 2014. As stated by the Chairman, a briefing in this regard has been circulated to members, and I therefore propose to keep this opening statement brief.

The Supplementary Estimate sought will increase my Department’s overall net Voted allocation from €7,848.5 billion to €7,951.5 billion. The additional funding requirement is in respect of current expenditure only. There are three main factors behind the requirement for the supplementary amount of €103 million that is now being sought. First, a sum of €77 million, or three quarters of the total supplementary amount sought, is required to facilitate a technical accounting adjustment between the 2013 and 2014 financial years. The briefing material provided shows that certain salary and pension payments made at the very end of 2013, and originally recorded as expenditure incurred in that year, should have been recorded as expenditure incurred in 2014. This is because the payments in question were not actually available to staff and pensioners until early January 2014. This issue was raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his examination of my Department’s 2013 accounts. The result of that examination was that my Department’s recorded expenditure for 2013 was reduced by €77 million, with a consequent requirement to provide for this expenditure in 2014 by way of a Supplementary Estimate. I would again, however, make clear the technical nature of this request – the net effect of the adjustment over 2013 and 2014 expenditure is zero.

Second, a sum of €25 million is needed to cover a projected net excess of current expenditure compared to the original allocation. A major factor behind this requirement is the fact that the projected number of retirements across the education sector this year will be higher than that allowed for within the funding allocation provided. While an estimated 2,200 retirements were planned for in 2014, the actual number of retirements is now likely to be over 2,650. The additional funding is required to meet the lump-sum and pension costs of the additional retirees. My Department has no control over this element of expenditure.

Third, a further €1 million is required to cover the cost of the 25% Christmas bonus announced by the Minister for Social Protection in budget 2015. The €1 million will cover the cost of paying the bonus to some 18,000 participants on vocational training opportunities scheme, VTOS, courses and other education and training board, ETB, programmes, which fall under my Department’s remit.

I am also proposing, in line with normal practice, to offset current expenditure savings emerging on some subheads against excesses emerging on other subheads. In these cases, there is no net effect on funding. Similarly, I am proposing to reallocate funding for capital expenditure across subheads by allocating savings on schools capital expenditure to the subhead for expenditure in higher education, mainly to fund expenditure on the DIT Grangegorman site and on St. Patrick’s College, Drumcondra.

I trust that colleagues will not mind if I use this opportunity to update the sub-committee on plans to introduce necessary reform of the junior cycle and the strike action on which both second level teacher unions have embarked. As members will know, in recent weeks I have made a very significant move in a genuine effort to reach agreement with both unions. That move has been welcomed by the National Parents' Council Post Primary, the Irish Second-Level Students' Union, a range of management bodies, the education and training boards and employer representatives. I appreciate this broad support from education partners. I also thank various committee members for their supportive comments. It is deeply disappointing that, in response to this generous and significant proposal, the response of both the ASTI and the TUI has been to embark on strike action. The main point at issue at this stage is school-based assessment. School-based assessment is an important element of reform. Teachers already engage in school-based assessment. They correct homework and award marks for examinations set in the summer and at Christmas. Perhaps most importantly, the vital advice and guidance given at parent-teacher meetings is largely based on the teacher’s assessment of a student.

The new framework for reform will give teachers an input into the formal junior cycle examination process through assessment. Under the current system, this professional teaching judgment and experience is excluded from formal junior certificate assessment. This needs to change. I am proposing that it contribute to 40% of a student’s marks. The remaining 60% will be awarded through an externally assessed final year exam. It is on this point in particular that both teaching unions have decided to strike, closing schools and inconveniencing students and their families.

I have said that my door is open for talks. I have also made it clear that for those talks to be meaningful I need to see movement from the unions on the issue of school-based assessment. A negotiation needs movement from both sides.

It is now a week since the ASTI and the TUI took to the picket line. They will be meeting again this week and they plan another one-day stoppage in January. In an effort to avert industrial action and restart talks I will now ask Dr. Pauric Travers, who chaired talks between both sides in November, to consult with myself, my officials and both teacher unions to see if the conditions for meaningful talks exist. Dr. Travers's role in the previous talks was appreciated by both sides and I would like to publicly thank him for the time he is investing in this process. My departmental officials will also be meeting with parents’ representatives, the Irish Second-Level Students’ Union and other partners to brief them on the current state of play.

My position is that agreement on junior cycle reform can and will be reached. I would again ask the ASTI and TUI to respond to my initial proposal, as another round of strikes and disruption will serve no interest. I felt it would be appropriate to announce at the committee meeting rather than outside the House that I have asked Dr. Travers to get involved. I am happy to respond to any questions.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We will now go through the Supplementary Estimates, during which debate members can also raise the junior cycle reform issue. The first subhead is A3 - salaries, wages and allowances for primary school teachers. I refer members to page 3 of the Department's brief and page 3 of the committee secretariat briefing.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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According to the Minister, the amount being sought under this subhead is to correct an accounting technicality whereby money was paid out this year rather than last year. How did that work out in terms of the budget? It was also stated that there was an underspend in the Department last year and that that underspend would be carried over into this year. Perhaps the Minister would elaborate further. I presume there will be no knock-on effects on next year's budget.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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What happened is that the moneys were lodged into the banks in 2013 but were not available to teachers and pensioners until 2014. The view then of the Comptroller and Auditor General was that the funding should more properly have been accounted for in 2014. It will have no knock-on effects. As I said earlier, taking the two years together, there will be zero effect.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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On the face of it, this appears to be a technical accounting measure, but if the adjustment will apply this year is there then a requirement to adjust the accounts for 2013, because obviously they will have changed as a result?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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We are, in terms of what is being done now, correcting both.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Have similar errors arisen in previous years? Why was this not foreseen by the Department such that the Comptroller and Auditor General did not have to pick up on it?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I was not Minister for Education and Skills at the time, but my understanding is that a view was taken that because the money was paid into the banks in 2013 it could be accounted for in 2013. However, the Comptroller and Auditor General took a different view and felt it should be accounted for in 2014. I understand a similar problem arose in two other Departments. As the pay date was 2 January, that was why it arose.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We will now move on to subhead A5 - grants to ETBs in respect of teachers' salaries.

I refer members to page 5 of the Department brief and page 4 of the committee secretariat briefing.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Primarily, this concerns lump sum payments.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Yes. It relates to teachers' retirement and salaries.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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How much do teachers' salaries come to?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Provision for teachers' salaries in primary, secondary, comprehensive, community and ETB schools amounts to €3.674 billion in 2014. This provides for some 62,000 teachers and 1,380 additional posts, including 300 additional resource teaching posts. Given the amount of money involved, it is extremely difficult to be exact for every subhead. When the Estimates are settled, the aim is to ensure sufficient moneys are available overall to meet all commitments. We have been able to adjust the subhead through the Supplementary Estimate.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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With regard to the number of teachers retiring, 2,200 retirements were forecast but 2,650 occurred. How did the Department plan this and how did it get the figures wrong? How did the overrun occur? Was it open-ended - a matter of anticipation - or an incorrect forecast? Is it as simple as that?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It can be quite difficult to forecast the actual numbers, because teachers can retire at any time between the ages of 50 and 65. Statistics show that only 10% of teachers retire on age grounds - they retire across the age spectrum for a variety of reasons. In 2012 more than 3,300 teachers retired, but in 2013 only 1,670 retired. The figures vary from year to year and, obviously, the prediction for 2014 was not accurate.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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It is purely about forecasting.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is about forecasting. One tries to be as accurate as possible, but the numbers are variable. The Department does its best to forecast the numbers each year. There have been various grace periods in recent years and they have affected teachers' decisions on retirement and made it harder to predict retirement figures.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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When teachers retire they get a lump sum, but once they are gone this results in a saving in the area of salaries. This is part of the Minister's presentation today.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Yes, although obviously new teachers enter the system.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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If a teacher retires halfway through the year there will be salary savings for the rest of the year.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Yes; it would be offset.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Has this created opportunities for new teachers in the system? Has the number of available posts been estimated, or are extra jobs available? The original allocation for salaries was for 11,060 staff, an increase of 335 on 2013. What are the staff numbers now, given the extra retirements?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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A number of them are already in the system and will get the more permanent, long-term positions. There are new numbers because the demographics are taken care of, but there is a constant flow of retirement and recruitment. Vacancies arising on retirement are filled.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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This is the first big meeting I have attended and I am trying to catch up. It was noted that 430 more teachers have decided to retire than was originally estimated. The Minister said that teachers can retire at any age between 50 and 65 and that only 10% of teachers retire on age grounds. I apologise if this question sounds stupid, but is there any deadline for teacher retirements? Must they give the Department advance notice of one, two or three months?

As I said, this area is new to me. The Chairman raised a question about whether contracted teachers or permanent teachers cover the duties of newly retired teachers. Are the retirement figures consistent across the country or do they apply particularly to large centres of population such as Dublin?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The figures apply across the country, and teachers are required to give three months' notice.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Is there a particular time of year when teachers must retire, or can it occur at any point?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The actual date of retirement is 31 August - the end of the summer holiday, in other words. Once notice is given, a new teacher is brought in for the beginning of the school year.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am still trying to fill in gaps, because this is my first time in such a committee meeting. How are teachers replaced when they retire? The Chair raised this question. Are contract teachers used to replace retiring teachers?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Some teachers are employed on short-term contracts, and the aim is to get them into contracts of indefinite duration as quickly as possible. Many teachers begin on temporary contracts, and that is an issue in the teaching profession. An expert group was set up by my predecessor to address the issue of permanency for teachers and I hope to implement its recommendations by the start of the next school year.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Going back two or three years, I saw teachers retire from schools in my locality only to return on a contract basis. Does this still happen?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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We do not want that to happen and it is something we are trying to eradicate from the system.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Does it still happen?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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There are now redeployment panels that supply teachers for available posts.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister referring to retired teachers?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Retired teachers are not supposed to be brought back.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I have seen it in local schools and I know it happened in the past.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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This is an important issue, because we cannot stop retirees from seeking work. Some people have a bigger problem with this issue than I do. At the same time, retirements should open opportunities for those new to the profession and allow them the chance of a proper, permanent and secure job. Does the Department check how posts are filled? I think there is an issue around the transparency of schools' recruitment policies in the ETB sector and generally. Does the Department have information on the advertisement of permanent posts once they have been vacated, and does it ensure they are filled properly? Is there any way of overseeing the sector in this regard?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The Department has a good idea of what is happening in terms of panels and so on. The rehiring of retired teachers is discouraged because we want to create opportunities for young teachers, as many feel insecure in their positions. This is why the group I mentioned was formed and requested to make recommendations. We monitor the practices of schools to ensure they recruit younger teachers instead of rehiring retirees.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Do members have more questions on this subhead? We will move on to subhead 6, which deals with the salaries of special needs assistants, SNAs.

That is on page 6 of the Department's brief and page 6 of the committee secretariat's brief.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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There is nothing in the Supplementary Estimate on that.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is there not?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is part of the technical issue for the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is part of the 2013-2014 issue.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It is similar to the first item we got. Do members have any questions?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Does this have anything to do with the increase in the number of SNAs?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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No, it relates to the issue about 2013-2014.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We move on to subhead A.8, which is on superannuation of teaching and non-teaching staff. It is on page 6 of the Department's brief and page 7 of the committee secretariat's brief.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is the issue we have just discussed around retirement.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Subhead B.7 is on superannuation and is the same issue again.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is the same issue again.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Technically, we must go through it. It is superannuation for former members of SOLAS, FÁS and AnCo and it is on page 7 of the Department's brief and page 8 of the committee secretariat's briefing for members. The next item is subhead C.10, which is superannuation for former staff of universities and institutes of technology. It is on page 9 of the secretariat briefing and page 9 of the Department's briefing.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is the same issue again.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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There are no questions. Subhead C.11 is on student support and it is on page 10 of the Department's brief and page 10 of the committee's brief. Can the Minister provide us with a briefing on the subhead?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is on student grants. We had a shortfall in funding for student grants but found we were able to use money that was saved elsewhere.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Therefore, it does not involve an extra aspect.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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No. It does not involve the €103 million. It does not involve the Supplementary Estimate.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It was a question of moving funds around.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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There was just a moving around within the Department.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Do members have any questions on that issue or the broader issue?

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Is shifting things around a common practice?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is routine.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Is it that everyone is happy if the sum comes in at the end irrespective of what pot it comes out of?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It balances in the end. What happened was that there were more SUSI grants than had been anticipated at the beginning of the year. The funding was found through savings in other areas.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Was it a question of being short of money for SUSI grants and then taking it from a pot of money that might have been expecting funding which, as a result, did not come?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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No. It was money that was genuinely not required.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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It was genuinely saved.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is also subject to the approval of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It is to ensure there is adequate money for various subheads. In this case, it was for student grants. It is not that we took money from anything else.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Nobody was short elsewhere as a result of this.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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No.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for being late for the meeting. Is the Minister satisfied with the appeals system for grants in her Department? It is a very fine and crude instrument to have a cut-off rate for eligibility for grants. While self-employed people are able to work within the system to a greater extent, and we have to be careful how we phrase that, it is an extremely crude instrument for people who are on PAYE. I had a case recently where someone received a one-off additional payment of €800 as part of the Haddington Road agreement. It was a one-off and not to be repeated in the next year but to have that reflected adequately is extremely difficult. Does the Minister have a comment on whether the appeals system is robust enough to take genuine cases into account where these are hit very hard by being a couple of hundred euro over the limit?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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In all these things, there has to be a cut-off point somewhere. There will always be someone on the wrong side of the cut-off point unfortunately. As public representatives, we all know of situations where somebody is unfortunately on the other side. These issues can always be reviewed and they will always be under consideration in terms of whether one needs changes in the system. While there were difficulties in the first year, SUSI has settled down well in general. For example, an issue that was raised in committee previously was around independent students and how one defines whether one is independent from one's family. Issues like that are always kept under review if we feel there may be a need to change. I have no immediate plans to change the cut-off points.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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To clarify my question on that, I agree that SUSI is to be complemented on its extraordinary achievement in a couple of short years in having settled down as it has. It provides a superb service which all of us as public representatives would acknowledge. Certainly, I would and I have no difficulty with SUSI. The issue is where someone does not fit the typical box. My specific question is whether the Minister is satisfied that the appeals system is robust enough and sufficient discretion is afforded to the appeals process under her Department in reviewing these cases to accommodate genuine applicants?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The appeals board is independent and it operates in that way on the basis of the guidelines that are there within the scheme. As with anything else, there are specific cut-off points as the Deputy knows.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Sometimes when one has an appeals system, be it for medical cards or whatever, the appeal decides whether the original decision was correct in terms of the guidelines and the law and not whether there ought to have been some discretion. That is what is being asked about in terms of the Minister's happiness or otherwise with the discretion.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I know what the question is, but when one has an independent appeals board, one has to trust it to make the decision. What I might consider to be a tough case, the Deputy might not. That is why we have an independent appeals board.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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We should be more cognisant of this to ensure there is adequate discretion there as there are some very tough hard luck cases with genuine people who are maxed out. It is not a criticism but I note that our role as public representatives is to challenge these systems continuously to ensure they are robust and involve adequate discretion. I appreciate the opportunity to make that point to the Minister. I would like her to feed back if appropriate.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It might be a matter for another discussion with the committee. Today, we are discussing the Supplementary Estimates.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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None of the officials with me today deals specifically with SUSI grants from a policy perspective. I think the Chairman was here before when someone raised the issue of mature students and independence from the family. We can have a look at it again with the committee.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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There are still issues and I dealt with one myself. While SUSI has greatly improved, I found it very hard to get it to take certain things on board. In a way, the applicant has faced a brick wall. It was only persistence that got SUSI to look at it again. Some applicants have an estranged parent, which can be a difficulty and there are still issues around it. The committee did a great deal of work with SUSI and it really got its act together to be fair.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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There is legislation in place and SUSI is obviously bound by it.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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To be clear, it is not SUSI I am interested in. I am referring to the appeals body. I appreciate that SUSI operates within clear guidelines and does so very well. I could not take from that.

I am more interested in the appeals body than SUSI as such. I appreciate that SUSI has to operate within clear guidelines, and it does this very well. My difficulty is with the extent of latitude that SUSI might exercise if the legislation allowed it to do so. The appeals body has that latitude. I want to ensure that the spirit of the legislation is being observed in the administration of reviews.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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In answering the Deputy's question I have to be conscious as Minister that it is an independent board.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I read recently that an expert group has been established, with Mr. Peter Cassells as chair, to examine funding of higher education. In regard to its terms of reference, is it considering the issue of reintroducing third level fees?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It has been given a broad remit in regard to the entire funding area but it will not be reporting until later next year.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Will its remit include issues pertaining to the student contribution?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is a broad remit.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Will it examine the assets test?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It has not been given a specific direction in that regard but, as I said, it has been given a broad remit.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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As there are no other questions on that subhead, we will move on to subhead D4, building costs in higher education. I ask the Minister to clarify this subhead before members ask question given that the additional amount appears substantial.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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This is related to the transfer of moneys to DIT for Grangegorman and to St. Patrick's. As the money in the schools capital budget was not fully spent this year, we were able to reallocate it. DIT Grangegorman has moved particularly speedily and we were able to transfer money to it from the rest of the capital allocation.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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Did I miss the discussion on subhead D3?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Subhead D3 deals with capital expenditure on schools.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It is related.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It pertains to buildings for primary and post-primary schools.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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There is a saving in that subhead and it has been reallocated.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I have a question on subhead D3 if it is related to D4.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Yes, it is.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am trying to fill in the gaps because I am new to this. Subhead D3 states there will be an underspend of €35.5 million on capital expenditure. I take it this is related to projects being constructed. The subhead indicates that the number of projects commencing was smaller than anticipated. I wish to raise a local issue and, although I do not expect an answer on it now, perhaps the Minister will revert to us with further information. Was the underspend put aside for building schools or am I reading it incorrectly?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is money allocated in the schools capital programme for projects which moved more slowly than expected.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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It was not used.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It was used for DIT and St. Patrick's.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for labouring the point. Was the €35.5 million for primary and post-primary schools?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It was under the capital building programme.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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It was not spent.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It was transferred. We will make it up because all of the projects in the building programme will be progressed.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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The national school in my local area is in a DEIS programme. The school has had five or six prefabs for the past eight to ten years. It has been told it will not be allocated money for a new building for up to the next eight years. However, it was told in the previous week that planning permission would be going up to indicate that the building to proceed. I recognise the Minister cannot answer that specific question because I have not told her the name of the school but, in the general case of DEIS schools in poorer areas, which take in pupils whose needs are greater than in other areas, why is a project of this nature not being dealt with in a separate way? I am anxious to know why the €35.5 million could not have been allocated to schools which need this money now rather than in five or six years time.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I support Deputy Catherine Byrne on that issue. Two schools in my area are not on the five year programme, even though one has been waiting for 15 years. One of the prefabs in that school is in a disgraceful condition. In the two schools in question, approximately 400 students have been accommodated in prefabs for a decade. Over the years I have tabled a number of parliamentary questions on the issue. Even the work aimed at reaching the stage where an architect takes a first look proceeds at snail's pace. I do not know whether this is by design or because of a lack of resources but the issue also arises that money is not being spent on construction because there are insufficient shovel ready projects. Is anything being done to speed up the various stages, which seem to take years to complete?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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My predecessor announced a five year building programme and schools with major construction projects are working their way through them. All of these projects will be constructed. There are also programmes for prefab replacement which were announced by my predecessor at the beginning of the year. As in any Department, when one comes to the end of the year sometimes there are reasons why projects are delayed. The money may not be spent in that particular year but in most of these delayed cases it will be spent early in the coming year. In order to ensure we do not have an underspend in our capital programme, which none of us would want, money can be transferred to a project that can use it in the current year. That does not mean that the delayed projects will not proceed. They are already in the programme announced for this year.

In regard to the schools to which the Deputies referred, we will be announcing the next major construction programme in early 2015. Schools that are on a list and have been waiting will be considered for that programme. In terms of major construction, the previous programme was almost completely driven by demographics and growth in numbers, and the need to ensure that every child had a school and a classroom to attend.

That was the primary driver of the major spend over recent years. In the coming programme, we will have to account for demographics again. We also want to look at older schools that need replacement and we will continue with the prefab replacement programme. There are several strands to the schools building programme and there are various reasons some of them have not moved as quickly as expected. One reason is the new building control regulations which came into force on 1 March. In some cases, these have caused some of the projects to go slower than was originally expected. This accounts for some of the underspend. Rather than lose the moneys because we cannot spend them, we would use them in another project that is part of the spend.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I understand that point. However, what about schools in the DEIS, delivering equality of opportunity in schools, programme that require new buildings or accommodation? If the €35.5 million is gone to another area, will the Minister get extra moneys next year to pick this up?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It has been spent on the other programme but the moneys for the schools building programme will be made up. The minor works grant would have used some of the underspend too.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that but what about DEIS programme schools in poorer areas that are told they will have to wait another six years for a new build?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I am not sure about that and I would need to know the individual schools in question.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I did write to the Minister about it.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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For the new building programme, we will be looking at all schools that have been waiting.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will raise it again outside the committee.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Obviously, there will be clear criteria for the next programme. I am aware of some schools that fulfilled criteria and had planning permission for a build but did not get into the programme. They will be in a positive position for the next programme.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Any time we have this conversation, it would be remiss of us not to acknowledge the extraordinary work achieved by the Department under the direction of the Minister and her predecessor. When we came into government, priority was given to replace prefabs and start building projects. With previous Administrations, while houses were built at every crossroads, they did not invest in school accommodation for our children. The work done by the Government is worthy and needs to be recognised. In my constituency, the schools infrastructure in towns such as Clonakilty has been utterly transformed in the Government’s lifetime. I wholeheartedly welcome this significant investment in our children’s futures.

Unfortunately, there is an issue around subcontractors for schools building projects not being paid by main contractors. On Monday, I spoke with a subcontractor who mentioned some well-known construction firms getting moneys from the Department for school works but not paying their subcontractors. It is probably down to tight tenders. Often, it is those first on site who will be paid but landscapers and the finishers on a project are not paid. That is how these main contractors are getting the edge over their competitors. The Department needs to be mindful of this and more needs to be done to protect subcontractors from getting burnt by some of the large contractors. The Department needs to remember that the cheapest quote for a schools building project might not be the most realistic and the only way the main contractor can come in at that price is by burning subcontractors. It is a despicable practice which we must condemn and we need to work hard to ensure it does not happen.

Another issue which I raised several times with the Minister’s predecessor is where suppliers of goods and services have not been paid by school boards of management with moneys from devolved grants. While the devolved grants are suitable from the Department’s perspective, as a school principal I know it is an extraordinary task to go through design and planning. For many principals it is a difficult journey and they are not qualified in that area. I had a case recently where €74,000 was allocated by the Department for the provision of accommodation for a school but it was never paid to the supplier by the school’s board of management. The Department must ensure the moneys given for a specific purpose are spent accordingly. While I accept boards of management do not come under the Minister’s remit and are a closed shop, there have been some cases where moneys from the Department have been misappropriated. The Department must be made aware of this and put structures in place to ensure better accountability with boards of management for moneys devolved to them.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Looking strictly at subhead D3, there is an underspend of €40 million on schools that people in communities are actually waiting for. If I were managing this operation, I would be saying someone was slacking and we need to find out why these moneys were not spent. There are schools in every member’s community waiting for schools building projects. However, it turns out to be just an accounting exercise at the end of the year and it does not matter if the money was not spent. It should matter. There should be an investigation into this underspend. I know the Minister said there are various reasons why it occurred. However, from a control point of view, this should be broken down in detail to find out why these moneys were not spent. Was someone not doing his or her job? We need to look behind the individual numbers, not saying this is an accounting procedure at the end of the year and everything is grand because it is not.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Department puts much emphasis on demographics. Some schools that got ambitious building projects have low enrolment numbers which would not justify the spend in the end. There are other schools meeting the needs of a growing school-going population but the children are left in prefabs. Why does the Department not get more schools to be ready to proceed with a project if moneys become available? Why is the process so slow? While we welcome moneys from the primary sector going to the third level sector, in this instance to DIT, should school buildings be a priority?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The context is that this year 27 new schools and 14 large-scale extensions were completed. These 41 large-scale projects involved 30 projects in the primary and 11 in the post-primary sector. A further 60 large-scale projects are under construction, while another 67 are advancing towards or are at tender stage, prior to commencement on site. Some of these were delivered in the traditional manner and some were devolved to different bodies like ETBs, etc. It is a major programme. I share the concern that we would spend where we should be spending. The school sector is a major priority for all of us. We do not want to see delays happening, but sometimes they happen for genuine reasons. We want to make sure we spend the money and do not let it go.

There has been considerable improvement in terms of things moving more quickly than they did in the past. I remember a time when many stages were involved and things seemed to take forever. I am aware of a large number of projects which are ready to go, if funding was available for them. If there are delays I would be happy to investigate why they exist.

On the issue raised by Deputy Daly on sub-contractors, I share his views on non-payment of sub-contractors. The Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation has been working on strengthening the rights of people who are losing out in that regard. In my Department, the Contractors Administration Services, CAS, conducts random audits of school building projects to ensure they are compliant with regulations under the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection. If criminal activity was involved, recommendations could be made. It conducts audits on building sites and if it sees anything it believes is untoward, it can refer it to the relevant authorities and have them investigated. The Department does that in order to ensure that there is no abuse of the various regulations and obligations of contractors and sub-contractors working on sites.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Are those visits unannounced?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Yes. If CAS feels there may be a problem on a site it can return to it.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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What about non-payment of moneys to the providers of services?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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A financial services unit is in place as part of the joint management body which carries out an audit of spending in the voluntary secondary school sector to ensure that money is spent properly. A similar unit is in place for schools in the ETB sector. It should be monitoring that.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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What about primary schools?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I will come back to the Deputy on the issue of primary schools. I do not think there is a similar arrangement.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I do not believe there is, and that is where the issues are arising.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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We will examine that.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It is part of the broader issue with boards of management. It is very difficult to hold them accountable for their actions if one has a difficulty with them.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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We will examine the situation regarding primary schools.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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In regard to the €35 million allocated to DIT for the works in Grangegorman, which is obviously important-----

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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St. Patrick's is also included.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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It is an important project. Has the money been spent or will it be spent by the end of this year?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Yes.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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When was the decision made to give the money to DIT and St. Patrick's for the work? If it has now been spent, the decision would have been made a number of months ago in order to allow it to be spent. What additional work has been delivered with the €35 million, over and above what was planned in the original Estimates?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Those in charge of the school section would be able to indicate that they would predict that they would not be able to spend money on the particular projects identified for spending in the current year. At that point, the go-ahead to spend it in another sector would have been given. I do not know if we have information on when it happened. We can get the information for the Deputy. I do not know the exact date. We think it may have been some time in September.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Some €28 million was allocated from unspent capital expenditure for the minor works grants, which the Minister announced two weeks ago and which was welcome. I made the point on numerous occasions that a specific allocation should have been made in last year's Estimates and in next year's Estimates towards that. When the €28 million is combined with the almost €40 million underspend, the total underspend on the schools' capital budget is €65 million. This is not new. We had the same situation last year, whereby approximately €70 million in the school capital project budget was underspent.

The former Minister, Deputy Quinn, announced minor works grants when the figure became clear. He also announced that there would be a summer works scheme from the funding, something the Minister decided not to do. She is taking the €40 million from the primary and secondary sector and is putting it into the third level sector. She has made a definite decision not to fund a summer works scheme in the coming year, but will instead use the money elsewhere. That is a major issue for many schools which have pent-up demand for projects. There was no scheme in two out of the past three years, and it now seems to be the case that it may not be paid for three out of four years.

It is something to which the Minister must have given a lot of thought and the Department would have considered very clearly. I find it difficult to see how the Minister came to the decision not to pay the summer works scheme because of the nature of the projects awaiting that funding. I ask the Minister to elaborate on that decision.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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On the general issue, the focus is very much on schools. The total budget for schools is €451 million for 2014, and is €70 million for higher education. The policy is to spend the vast majority of the capital budget on schools. As I said, I intended to announce the minor works scheme, which was announced at the same time the previous year. It was a priority, in terms of underspend.

As I understand it, in regard to the summer works scheme money will still be spent in 2015. I will probably need to come back to the committee to clarify that at a later stage. Expenditure in the order of €56 million on the summer works scheme is expected by year end and provision has been made in the 2015 allocation for the carryover costs of such improvement works not completed this year. There will be some money spent next year on the summer works scheme, which was previously announced.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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That relates to the 2014 works scheme. I understand that around this time last year the former Minister made an announcement similar to the Minister's announcement this year on the funding of a minor works grants. He also announced a summer work scheme, for which applications would be sought and money spent throughout 2014. Does the Minister have any plans for a 2015 summer works scheme? Money was not allocated in the 2015 Estimate for a summer works scheme or minor works grants. Some €40 million has become free due to an underspend.

Does it mean no summer works scheme is planned for 2015?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It is under review, depending on the applications that come in. I have explained about the applications that were called for in terms of the expenditure. It remains under consideration.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Given that €37 million is required, and the Minister is taking €39 million from the primary education budget and putting it into third level, is there money budgeted for a summer works scheme in 2015?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The money we are talking about must be spent this year. Some of the works will not be completed this year, and therefore we cannot spend the money this year.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Last year, the then Minister, Deputy Quinn, used the money for a summer works scheme.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I do not think 2013 money was spent in 2014.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe we could get clarification. Last year, his explanation for his ability to introduce a summer works scheme and the minor works grant was that there was unspent capital funding from the previous year. Now, unspent capital funding is being moved into the third level sector.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I can clarify the accounting of it, and the possibility of further spending on a summer works scheme is still under consideration.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Is any funding allocated for it?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Not in the 2014 budget, which we are examining now.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Is there any money earmarked for next year in the 2015 Estimate?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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No definite decision has been made on a further announcement of a summer works scheme. This is all I can say.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Is there money clearly earmarked for it for next year? We recently went through a budget and Estimates process. Either money is allocated to it for next year or it is not. Everything was earmarked. Next year, the Minister might find savings somewhere else or take money from another area. However, all the money is currently allocated to something. Has money been allocated for a summer works scheme next year? This is not just buttons; it is €37 million.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Like the Deputy, I would like to be able to spend further money on a summer works scheme. However, I cannot say there is money allocated for it.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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So no money is allocated for it.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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No.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Recently in the Dáil, I asked the Minister about the fact that money is being taken from the schools capital budget and being spent elsewhere. The Minister assured me that it was having no impact on capital spending on education, but when one takes €60 million that could have been used for school buildings and allocates it elsewhere, it very definitely has an impact. The many schools that await funding are unable to avail of it. While schools on which the money was going to be spent will get some from next year's capital budget, others will miss out as a result. Is it possible to have a breakdown of the schools that were due to get capital funding this year, the amount that was earmarked for those projects and the schools that did not draw it down as a result of the delay? St. Mary's national school, Stranorlar, is seeking funding for a new school building for which a site has been bought. It is on a main national road and faces pedestrian safety issues, and has very small classrooms. It is one example of a school which is not getting funding as a result of the underspend of €60 million. The Minister and Department are not focusing on ensuring that the money is spent on school buildings.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The amount of money we will spend on school capital projects and school buildings is the amount that was announced in the original five-year programme. We will not underspend. The amount for DIT is the amount allocated to it. If DIT is ahead in its spending and spends its money this year rather than next year, it does not follow that it will receive more. I reiterate the Government's very strong commitment to spending on schools. Many projects in the higher education sector have been sitting on lists since 2011 and have not been advanced. DIT was prioritised because of the work that was happening on the Grangegorman campus. The Government is very strongly committed to the school building programme, and anything that was delayed this year was not delayed because we wanted to underspend in the area but for genuine reasons. Some of it was devolved and we had no control over the delays. The delays, which are regrettable, will be made up next year, but not at the expense of the school building programme. We are not trying to spend less on schools and more on higher education. The emphasis is very much on schools.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I have a comment on the overall issue of the Estimates and budgetary process, which I have made at each of the previous Estimates meetings to the former Minister, Deputy Quinn, for whom I had enormous time. He contributed to the education system. I have worked in the education system at primary, secondary and management level and have some understanding of it. I feel passionately that we politicians must put our priorities on the table at this time of year. Yesterday, through a parliamentary question, I learned that savings of nearly €5 million accrued on the day of industrial action last week. I will pass no comment on this, good, bad or indifferent. It is a mathematical issue. A saving of €4 million was made on rental accommodation. If the Minister wishes to leave her mark on the education system, both personally and politically, it could be in the area of the allocation of resources for children with special learning needs. As a member of the committee and a politician, it is my top priority. I plead with the Department that where any savings accrue, such as in the areas I mentioned or on the rental of accommodation thanks to the schools building programme, they be reinvested into special needs learning. It has progressed enormously in my lifetime from a zero base, and I want it to continue.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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We have specifically allocated extra money for resource teachers and 365 extra special needs assistants, SNAs, in the coming year. It is very much a focus of my Department's priorities and of my personal priorities.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for the update on the junior certificate. I welcome the fact that Mr. Travers has been asked to intervene and try to engage with the Minister and teachers' representatives to see if there is a way towards reaching an agreement with which everybody can be comfortable. It is unfortunate that it has come to this. Had the Government taken a different approach, primarily the Minister's predecessor, we might have avoided it. We are back to what was on the table before the Government came to office, but in a much more difficult industrial relations sphere. Those who should have been partners in the reform are now in conflict with the Government.

The Minister's decision some weeks ago to return to the proposal for external assessment of 60% of the new junior certificate and for it to continue to be State certified is welcome . If the former Minister, Deputy Quinn, and the Government had engaged with teachers from the outset, instead of taking a dictatorial and solo approach to important reforms, we would not have found ourselves in the situation we are in now. An accommodation could have been reached in a way that would have ensured we would see reform implemented more quickly than see now.

Now, both the Department and the teacher representatives are retiring into their trenches and are becoming very much focused on the principle of either complete external or internal assessment of the remaining 40%. The focus should be on the end curriculum and the learning experience for the student, how it can be delivered and what agreement can be reached to ensure the 40% being assessed internally in the school leads to the student having an improved curriculum and learning experience. They focus should be on getting down to the nitty gritty and discussing the detail of this to ensure this is the outcome. As long as either the Department or the teachers stick to their view, they cannot get down to the level of detail required to see what the experience of the student will be.

I hope Mr. Travers can engage with the Department and the teacher representatives and get down to that detail. I believe the Department's unwillingness to engage on the detail of this with the teacher unions unless they agreed in advance of engagement that it would be internal assessment in the schools put an unnecessary barrier against talks on the 40% assessment that is to happen over second and third year in school. If the Department had offered to talk to the unions about their remaining concerns, we could have avoided a situation where we have already had a one day strike and face a potential second.

Hopefully, the Minister's decision to re-engage Mr. Travers will allow a platform where we can have serious discussion between her and the teacher representatives as to how the 40% assessment can be delivered and how to deal with the issues and concerns in regard to that so as to avoid a further strike day and get real agreement. I believe this agreement could have been achieved three years ago if the Government had taken a different approach than it has. Unfortunately, even though curriculum change has started with English, we are probably further behind overall than when the Government came to office.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I will be brief, as I have already said what I wanted to say on the issue. I thank Deputy McConalogue for his positive views on the moves I have made. I believe we need to see movement from the teacher unions and hope that through the re-engagement of Mr. Travers, we will be able to avoid a further strike that does not serve any purpose.

At all times, the focus of the Department, myself, my predecessor and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, which made the recommendations, is in the interest of students to ensure we give them the opportunity to be assessed on a variety of skills, competences and intelligence, not just those that are measured in an exam at the end of a three year cycle. The sooner we can get on with this and get working on implementing the curriculum, the better. As the Deputy said, we have started with English, but the sooner we get beyond this impasse, the better for everybody concerned.

It is important to realise that some of the other partners in education, particularly parents at post-primary level are strongly in favour of this change taking place. The same is true for the Irish Second-Level Students Union. We must be cognisant of these partners and for that reason, the Department will meet with them in parallel with the talks Mr. Travers is having with the teacher unions in which we hope he will make progress.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We have concluded our consideration of the Supplementary Estimate and I thank members, the Minister and her officials for their contributions.