Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of this morning's meeting is to engage with representatives from Nightline in regard to the new postcode system, Eircode.On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. John Tuohy, chief executive of Nightline, which is Ireland's largest independent logistics company, and Mr. Kevin Murray, managing director of Nightline.
I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I advise the witnesses that any submission or opening statement they make to the committee will be published on the committee's website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I invite Mr. Tuohy to make his opening statement.

Mr. John Tuohy:

I thank the committee for having us here. I have provided hard copies of our presentation. There has been much discussion about the Eircode system proposed by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. We are in favour of the system proposed. It is very innovative, has been well thought out and is particularly suited to the conditions in Ireland, particularly in rural areas, where up to 60% of addresses are not unique. As the largest privately owned parcel delivery business in Ireland, we support Eircode as it is proposed. Last week was our peak shipping season. Given that coming up to Christmas, my company will have made approximately 500,000 deliveries in Ireland, we are well qualified to talk on the topic. I have been interested in the topic and have followed it with great personal and business interest for approximately 25 years. In 1989, I wrote my first letter to An Post to inquire about the introduction of a postcode system for Ireland.

From some of the media coverage and presentations to the committee, we know there are concerns about the proposed system. I have knowledge of postcode systems in other jurisdictions, particularly the UK, given that we have a substantial delivery business in Northern Ireland and work with the UK postcode system. We are aware of the deficiencies of the UK system, particularly in rural areas. In the debate about the appropriateness of Eircode, people often ask why we cannot use the same system as the UK. In my presentation, members will see a road, the R106, which runs between Malahide and Swords in north County Dublin, which I have used as an example because I am from Malahide. Two of the basic principles of the UK postcode system are that all roads must be named and every property on a road must be numbered. While it might seem reasonable, in this example, when one leaves Malahide one is on the Swords Road, whereas when one reaches Swords the same road is called the Malahide Road.

Under the UK postcode system, the road would have to be renamed with one name, or we would have to define the point at which it stops being the Malahide Road and becomes the Swords Road. I invite members to think about it for a minute. Naming anything in Ireland can be contentious. For example, there was much debate about naming the new Luas bridge over the Liffey. As a nation, we do not like such change. If we decided not to rename the road in my example, we would have to draw a line across it to determine where one ends and one begins, and this is a potentially contentious issue for the people who live along the road. The same could apply to many roads in Ireland.

Having overcome this contentious issue, we would have to number all the properties on the road. On the map, members will see that there is considerable open space along the road, as in many rural roads. If we numbered all the properties, for example from one to 100, and a new property were built, the number sequence would be out of synch. We would have to renumber every house on the road or introduce sub-numbers. This is why naming every road and numbering every property would be potentially divisive and very time-consuming and expensive. Almost every road which we would name and number would involve a debate with the people who live there as to what it will be called and what number each house will have. The UK was the first country to introduce a postcode system. It was originally introduced in London in the 1850s, but it took until 1977 to complete the process of implementing it across the UK, with most of the work done between the 1950s and the 1970s. It took almost 20 years for the UK authorities to give everything a name and number, because it was so divisive and contentious. It was a very costly and lengthy process. With the Eircode system, whereby every property has a unique identifier, we can build new properties along a road without having to renumber or rename anything.

The next slide in my presentation is about current challenges and I have permission to use the example of a customer of ours, Pinewood Healthcare, a manufacturing business based in Ballymacarbry. Its address, according to its website, is Ballymacarbry, Clonmel, County Tipperary. However, in its official address on the An Post website, Ballymacarbry is spelled “Ballymacarbrey”. Locally, the name of the area is spelled without the letter “e”, and this is common for addresses in the area. If I were a truck driver, leaving Dublin to make a delivery to this factory in Ballymacarbry, I would probably drive to Clonmel and then start looking for Ballymacarbry. However, Ballymacarbry is actually in County Waterford, and is 17 km away from Clonmel.

Differences between local and official spellings of place names are common in Ireland, and the Eircode system will allow us to leave them as they are. We need not change anybody's address or spelling. When this factory gets its Eircode next year, a truck driver will not go to Clonmel to look for the factory, but will put the Eircode into the navigation system, which will give directions to the door. The reason the postal address is Clonmel, County Tipperary is that the postal route that covers the area comes from Clonmel. In Ireland, there are many postal addresses which do not reflect that actual location, and Eircode will allow us to keep all this in place while adding the Eircode to the address.

Eircode will also help with the issue of non-unique addresses, which applies to 60% of our rural addresses. My surname, "Tuohy" is quite prevalent in the west of Ireland.

My father came from a townland near Portumna in County Galway. Everybody's surname in the townland was either Tuohy or Conroy. In the old days, when my mother wrote a letter to my grandmother in County Galway, she would write my grandfather's name and his father's name in brackets after it so that the postman would know which Tuohy family to deliver it to. The properties in that townland had no name or number. The postman knew their location by the names of the people who lived there. The roads to those properties did not have names either. The introduction of the Eircode system is a great idea because it will allow all those aspects to remain the same. There is no need to change the name of a road. The houses in a parish do not need to be numbered or given a name; they will be simply given a code. That means a courier, postal operator, appliance repair man or ambulance driver can drive straight to the door of a property without the need to change any of the attributes in terms of the address. It means that everyone with the same surname in a townland can have the same address, but the addition of an Eircode will allow us deal with the non-unique addresses. That phenomenon is quite unique to Ireland, and the addition of an Eircode will allow us to address that very well. It is particularly appropriate for Irish conditions, and this is before we talk about those areas in the Gaeltacht where addresses are in Irish and there may be particular nuances in terms of the Irish language. There is no need to change any of that; all that is needed is that an Eircode be added and everything else will remain the same.

To return to the point I made about the way the UK postcode works, locations in rural areas pose particular challenges in the UK. There are approximately 20 million addresses in the UK but there are only 1.7 million individual postcodes. If one were to round up those numbers, one would say there was an average of 100 addresses per postcode, but in urban areas such as London and Belfast there might be four addresses to a postcode and in an area such as Fermanagh, with which we are quite familiar, there could be 100 addresses to a postcode and a single postcode could cover 20 sq. km. This is an issue not only in Northern Ireland but in the highlands and islands of Scotland, where the postcode system is inappropriate for locating individual addresses. I hope I have dealt with that issue. The UK postcode system has its own challenges in terms of rural areas, and that is precisely the issue that the Department and its advisers have tackled in terms of the non-uniqueness of rural addresses in Ireland. They have done a good job on that. I recommend that we press on with the schedule of implementation of the Eircode system as proposed.

To summarise, the introduction of the Eircode system will allow people to retain their current address without the need to change the name or number of a property. Roads will not need to be named or renamed. It will give a unique identifier to every rural address in Ireland. A feature of the Eircode system that might be helpful for Deputies is that it will allow a TD to write to all his or her constituents. Currently, it is not possible to define the addresses in a constituency unless one goes to a public library and checks the electoral register. It will allow a TD to identify the Eircodes of all the properties in their constituency and to communicate better with the constituents in an area. It is also possible to sectoralise, which would enable a Deputy to deal with an issue that is presenting in one part - as opposed to all parts - of their constituency. The Eircode system will allow for that to be done, whereas currently I do not believe it is possible.

I will respond to any questions members may have.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I wish to clarify that the delegates' presentation was forwarded as a PDF, so we were not able to provide that. However, we have a handout.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the delegates from Nightline. There have been a few detractors with regard to the introduction of the Eircode system. It is refreshing to hear the volume of business Nightline has throughout the country and that it is in favour of this system. A number of people, including those in the emergency services, have been critical of it with respect to a raft of issues. I am not sure if the witnesses are aware of such criticism of the way it is proposed to implement the system. How would the delegates reassure such detractors, particularly some members of the emergency services who have been in contact with us, that what is proposed is the right way to go?

Mr. John Tuohy:

I believe the emergency services have come on board in support of the Eircode system now that they have been provided with more information on how it will work. I do not believe the emergency services are officially against its implementation. However, some other companies in our industry have been critical of it. Those are multinational companies that are minority players in the Irish market. However, they are big corporations in their own right, which means their voices are disproportionately loud in this conversation. The issue multinational corporations have with the proposed system is that they adopt a one-size-fits-all model for their computer systems. They use the same systems in every country in the world, systems that were largely developed 30 or 40 years ago. Such systems would support UK- or US-style postcodes but they would not support this new and innovative system. Those corporations would have to spend money adapting their systems to the Irish market and, for them, the market is probably too small for them to do that. Rather than changing their systems to support the new postcode, such corporations would prefer to change the new postcodes to work with their older computer systems. That is the issue that multinationals operating in this market - which are big companies in their own right, even though they are minority players - have with this new system.

I draw a comparison between the introduction of this system and the design of the Dublin Port tunnel 12 or 14 years ago prior to its construction. In a similar way, minority interests said the port tunnel would be too small for trucks to be driven through it. I drove through it on my way into town this morning and I can assure the members there were no trucks stuck in it. That tunnel was built to EU standards that were new at that time, but a number of minority-interest operators in the market had lorries that were built to an older UK standard, which would not fit in the tunnel. Those operators wanted us to redesign the tunnel in order that their trucks would fit through it, as opposed to redesigning their trucks to the new EU standard. The members will note the parallel I am drawing. Similarly, a small number of multinational corporations do not like our new postcode system because it does not fit their systems. They do not want to spend money changing their systems to suit it and, therefore, they will shout loudly to try to persuade us to change our postcodes to suit them. It may appear that I am being cynical, but I think that is exactly what is going on. It is a similar debate.

I do not believe the emergency services have an issue with the Eircode system as it is proposed. When the Eircode system is implemented, a person living in a rural area who has to telephone for an ambulance can give his or her Eircode over the phone and the ambulance driver will be able to drive straight to their door and avoid having to drive up and down a country lane looking for a house that may be in off the road and cannot be seen from the main road. Similarly, we have hundreds of delivery vans in rural areas.

More than 100 of them will drive up and down the road on the phone to a customer, looking for directions and one can apply that to other courier firms and postal operations, whereas if they can phone a customer and ask them for their Eircode, the driver can put it into the satellite navigation system and drive straight to their door. It will save us time and fuel and it will be better for the environment and everything else. I very much recommend the proposed system. It has been well thought-out and is particularly suited to Irish conditions.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Tuohy mentioned Ballymacarbry and Clonmel in his initial contribution. I have a huge issue in south and east Limerick with postal addresses in Charleville in county Cork and Tipperary, so I know exactly what he is talking about. One of his competitors recently stopped me in the street while I was in the village of Athea in west Limerick with an address that is practically down beside the town of Newcastlewest, about ten miles away. To return to Deputy Moynihan's question, Mr. Tuohy is before the committee today to give a different perspective on some of the criticism, which may or may not be justified. That is what we are to find out. Has Nightline looked at some of the alternative technologies that were suggested, and used them to see whether they would be a more efficient way of delivering the same thing? I am not necessarily referring to the postcode model in the UK, but we have received a great deal of correspondence on alternatives to Eircode, which would do "what it says on the tin", as Ronseal says, but for much less money. We have a scrutiny role, which is to see whether the tendering was as it should have been, whether the technology is up to speed with what it should be and whether the outcome for customers like Nightline and the person receiving the parcel, the ambulance or the letter from the Deputy is satisfactory. Before Nightline committed itself to supporting this initiative, did it look at other options and assess whether they fitted Nightline's needs?

Mr. John Tuohy:

My mother is from Newcastlewest, so I am very familiar with the situation. The address of all the townlands around there is Newcastlewest, regardless of where they are. It is another very good example. I believe the Department received a number of tenders and gave all of them a fair assessment, so I am comfortable with that. The most important consideration in implementing a public postcode system like this is that the national postal operator can use it. If we brought out a new technology that An Post could not use - I know it is not the only stakeholder in this - we would struggle to get people to adopt it in the market. The proposed system is not perfect for everyone's use but it is good enough for everyone to subscribe to. We will all have to tweak our systems and our processes to adapt to it, but at least most of the stakeholders in the market have signed up and said that it is a good idea. During the consultation period, when the Department and its advisers came to talk to us about this, the first thing I said to them was that we want a system that An Post can work with, because if An Post does not adopt this we will struggle to get it off the ground. An Post attended the previous hearing and it has said that it is a good system and it can work with it too. The alternatives were assessed by the Department and its advisers at the time. What we have come up with is fast to deploy. As it is so fast and easy to deploy, without getting involved in renaming or numbering or anything else, it will also be the lowest cost.

We are well overdue this. We are the only developed country in the world without a postcode system. We hear a great deal of talk about our smart economy and how we want to be the latest and greatest, rolling out broadband and so on. We are doing all this in the absence of a key piece of infrastructure, namely, a national postcode system. The solution the Department came up with is innovative. It is new, because every address has a unique identifier, which is not the same in other markets, but it is quick to deploy and will generate the lowest costs. That must also be taken into consideration.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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In relation to Mr. Tuohy's own business, a capital investment will be required, without knowing the amount. Is this something the industry as a whole can absorb? It must obviously invest in its own technologies in order to avail of the code system. Will it impact adversely on the sector?

Mr. John Tuohy:

There will be some capital investment in integrating the system and adapting our processes to use it. However, the benefits in terms of reducing fuel consumption, improving productivity and so on are huge, because one will be able to find addresses quickly, without driving up and down a rural road. Many of my van drivers in rural areas would echo this. They spend a great deal of time driving a commercial vehicle up a narrow rural road, getting to one end of it, turning around and driving back down the other side and then having to ring the customer for more directions. The long-term benefits of eliminating all that far outweigh the initial investment required to implement this. If we were a multinational, I would have to change a system that covers every country in Europe just for the Irish market. I would probably have reservations about that. However, for the Irish conditions and for operations whose business is primarily in Ireland, it will be a boon and a significant improvement. The benefits will far outweigh the required investment.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank them for the presentation, which is very clear. We are getting a different message from them than we got from the Road Hauliers Association. I have two issues with the Eircode system. The overall issue is that I do not quite understand. I always look for simplicity and to my simple mind we are looking at a system under which one has a code that links a building or a place with the terrestrial co-ordinates and one should do it in the most efficient way possible to set up and maintain. I have some questions on the whole project, the initiation, analysis, testing, design, testing, the proof of concept, implementation, which people and companies were involved in it and at what stages they were involved, and so on, but that is not the concern of this meeting and I am looking at that separately.

Nightline and the Road Hauliers Association have a broadly similar function. Both are travelling around and going to addresses. I am sure it makes sense for both organisations that one would deliver to houses in a row of houses if one has a parcel for more than one house on a street or in a row, and yet one of the two organisations came before us and said that the bottom line is that the system is not useable. Now Mr. Tuohy is saying not only that it is useable, but that it is probably the best solution to what Nightline does. There is a conflict of views. I know Mr. Tuohy has put forward some rationale, but I am not sure I fully understand it. The first concern, therefore, is that the system is not sequential and people cannot plan routes based on it.

The second major concern that was put forward is the cost and the effort of maintaining that table of addresses.

Every time a new address is added, will it involve maintenance of a series of tables, because someplace within the system there must be a table that links to the terrestrial co-ordinates? Every time a new address is added, somebody must create the link between the code for the new address and the terrestrial code, unless it is done automatically through Google Maps or some other way. This may be an unfair question for Nightline, since it was not involved in this part of the development, but I have one further question to do with this. When the system was designed, did anybody from the design team talk to Nightline about how it operates or how it plans its routes and deliveries? Did anybody have that discussion with it or was there any testing of the concept in a live situation? If this happened, what feedback came from it? Has Nightline any information on the cost of maintaining an updated table of codes for these geographic areas?

At least one of the five emergency organisations has serious concerns regarding the usability and safety of Eircode and I intend to talk to them about those concerns. I have many other questions, but Nightline is not in a position to answer all of them. I am puzzled as to why two organisations, basically in the same business, have such different views on Eircode. One says it is of no use, while the other says it is very useful and probably the best solution.

Mr. John Tuohy:

The Deputy has asked a number of questions there. On the issue of sequencing, this discussion only arises if we assume we do not have modern technology available. Once every property in the country has a label or code and we know where it is, then it is possible to sequence the delivery route of a driver or postal operator. The first part of the Eircode, the three starting digits, is what we consider a high level code. This will refer to an area. We will have 139 of these "routing codes" as Eircode calls them, but I call them high level postcodes. Therefore, the country will be divided into 139 areas. Currently, when we sort parcels at our hub in Finglas, we can only sort parcels into 26 areas, by county, which is inefficient. Now, we will have 139 subdivisions, which is quite enough. In the UK system I mentioned earlier, covering the whole of the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, there are only 124 high level post codes.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Are the 139 areas in existence currently?

Mr. John Tuohy:

Yes, at the moment they refer to postal sorting areas and there are 139 of them. There are only 124 of those covering all of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. Therefore, 139 is enough for Ireland.

The great benefit of this system lies in the flexibility designed into it to add more of those if we want more granularity or more subdivisions. If we want more, we can increase the number without having to redesign the entire system. In terms of sequencing, within those areas, once we have modern technology available - as all businesses have now, even it is down to using a tool such as Google Maps - sequencing and routing is possible. Therefore, I do not accept the argument against that.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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It is necessary to go through a second process in order to achieve that.

Mr. John Tuohy:

No, I assume we will be using modern technology that is available today. The system is designed on that assumption.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Tuohy explain that to me, because this is what I find confusing. Will another table be required to translate the geocode into another code that shows the sequence of codes in an area.

Mr. John Tuohy:

What Deputy Colreavy is referring to is the geodirectory. This was a joint effort by Ordnance Survey Ireland and An Post in the 1990s, 15 to 20 years ago. This address database is already in existence, which is another reason this is such a cost effective way to introduce the Eircode system as proposed. These geocodes referred to by the Deputy - that database - already exists and is already maintained jointly by Ordnance Survey Ireland and An Post. Therefore, even today, if new properties are created, they are already being added to that database. What Eircode will do is just add another column to that database, adding the Eircode to those properties. Therefore, I do not see how an issue arises, as this database is being maintained already and people can subscribe to that service and get the new geodirectory updates that issue four times a year.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Who maintains the geodirectory?

Mr. John Tuohy:

It is a joint venture between An Post and Ordnance Survey Ireland, both of which are semi-State organisations.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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In the development process, did anybody talk to Nightline about proof of concept or was it tested in any way? Was Nightline listened to?

Mr. John Tuohy:

Yes, we were consulted by the Department on a regular basis. The Freight Transport Association Ireland has been very vocal in its opposition to this and on its website it mentions being consulted by the former Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, in 2012. It has been involved in the consultation process also. I believe its issue is that while we were all involved in the information gathering side of the process. The Department took everybody's views on board - it certainly took ours on board - and then produced this system based on those views. An Post had different requirements to what we had, the emergency services had different requirements and Irish speaking people and people of Gaeltacht areas had their concerns about retaining their names and so on. I believe the Department did a good job of taking all views on board and of coming up with a system that satisfies most of everyone's requirements.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Tuohy think it would be possible to take a geographic area and for different organisations to test the system in that area? Would it be sensible to test it in this way before signing off on the final decision.

Mr. John Tuohy:

A pilot test is always sensible when one is deploying a new system, but I have one reservation. The system as designed is a good system and is innovative and workable, but its implementation is the key issue. The company that has been awarded the contract to implement it is Capita and it now needs to work with the stakeholders to ensure it brings everybody's concerns on board at this stage. Possibly, it would be advisable for it to conduct a pilot before it goes live throughout the country. This is to do with implementation rather than design. The design is sound, but we need to watch carefully how it is implemented and ensure the views and concerns of all the stakeholders are taken on board.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I welcome our visitors and commend them on their eye-catching presentation. It is said a picture paints a thousand words.

On the Malahide Road and Swords Road anomaly, I entirely understand the proposition but how will this be addressed? The witness is correct that sometimes there is an ingrained familiarity in the Irish mindset. Often when a building in rural Ireland ceases to function as it did previously it retains its former title in some way; for example, if a building formerly functioned as a post office the likelihood is it will still be known as the "old post office". This can be quite confusing when one considers how buildings are situated in towns and villages and how they are named. How can this be addressed?

I know Ballymacarbry in west Waterford and I am very familiar with Clonmel. I asked myself whether there is another Ballymacarbry near Clonmel because people in west Cork take the N25 to Ballymacarbry and the M8 to Clonmel. Will the recognition of postal areas cause confusion when a postcode system is introduced? Will there be a division?

How realistic is numbering properties and renaming roads? I have huge reservations about this process, not least because of the traditional method of recognising placenames and areas. If we do not number properties and rename roads, will it adversely affect the roll-out of postcodes? Is this process realistic? It might be fine in Malahide, Swords and urban areas but it may be unrealistic in rural areas, though I would welcome views to the contrary.

Mr. John Tuohy:

During our part of the presentation I used the hypothesis of introducing a UK-style postcode as this would necessitate numbering properties and renaming roads. For clarity, the Eircode system means this is not necessary.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Mr. Tuohy was merely comparing the UK system.

Mr. John Tuohy:

Yes. For example, on postal addresses, Ballymacarbry is the postal address for Pinewood Healthcare and it would not be necessary to change this. The great thing about Eircode is it means things do not have to change. I am sure Deputies would rather not deal with people who are concerned about name changes to their roads, towns and areas. Many placenames in Ireland are local and do not appear on official records. The people of Ballymacarbry decided to drop the letter "e" from the placename, though the official name contains an "e". We do not have to change things like that because the beauty of the Eircode system is we can put a code on everything and keep the name, whether it be in Irish or English. The spelling of a placename could be based on local customs passed down through generations and this will remain the case because the Eircode means nothing need change and people need not be upset. This is the beauty of the proposed system.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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We do not want to have an issue like Dingle versus Daingean Uí Chúis in every town and village in the country.

Mr. John Tuohy:

No, certainly not. I have not mentioned the issue of common placenames in Ireland but, for example, I think there is a place called Grange in every county. There is a Kill in every county and there are many Kilmores. All of these names can remain because the Eircode is unique for each address and we need not upset people by changing placenames or the names of roads.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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In conclusion, given the success of the witnesses in their courier business and comparing the UK experience, are there any pitfalls in this area? The witnesses presented a very good case supporting postcodes but do they have reservations on the roll-out?

Mr. John Tuohy:

As I said previously, my concern relates to implementation. The company awarded a contract must step up to the plate, make itself visible and speak to stakeholders who have concerns regarding how the system will work. The design is sound and it does not need to be revisited as it suits Irish conditions. Implementation is the key and it is important that we inform people of their Eircodes and the importance of using them. The industry must address the roll-out and deal with stakeholder concerns on implementation.

There will always be people who doubt the prospects for success of a major infrastructure project like this. When the Luas was proposed for Dublin some media reports suggested it would be an unused white elephant but every Luas tram I see is packed and there is now talk of expanding the scheme. There are always doubts ahead of major infrastructure projects and minority voices that do a good job of being heard in the media do not help. We must press on with this because the pitfalls lie in implementation so that is where we must be careful.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Acting Chairman and welcome the witnesses. Mr. Tuohy may not be able to answer my question on implementation because Capita has the contract. How long will it take to implement this? What kind of interaction with the public is required? I am sure some people will use a normal address and leave out the postcode because that is how they have always done it. Will letters be returned if postcodes are not used?

The witnesses mentioned that there are many gaps between houses in Ireland and that using a number system would require changes. How was this done in the UK? They are still building in the UK so I am curious.

Mr. John Tuohy:

The UK system is very contentious. If one starts numbering everything in a rural area that previously had neither names nor numbers one must decide which house will be number one and which number 13. Even before one names a road, these are contentious issues. Eircode avoids such problems because they can slow down implementation. In the UK they use subdivisions and add letters to numbers. That system might slot properties along a rural road under the numbers 10, 10A, 10B, 10C and so on.

Regarding implementation, we are ready to go. We deal with many online retailers because many customers shop online. During the initial phase addresses without an Eircode will be tolerated by all operators because we cannot simply assume that everyone will use the system from the start. Modern technology provides tools that enable us to clean addresses. If we get an address without an Eircode we can do a best match and get the Eircode from the national database that is already maintained.

Emergency services are a different matter because it will be very advantageous to them if a caller from a rural area can give an Eircode. An ambulance, for example, will be able to come straight to a door without further information.

Again, implementation and communication with the public are the most important things. A person needs to know his or her Eircode and should pin it up in the kitchen so it can be referred to in an emergency, if an ambulance is coming or if a courier phones looking for directions. People living in rural areas are blue in the face, particularly at this time of year, from dealing with couriers seeking directions on the phone. Many people order items for Christmas online and if they live in obscure rural areas and must constantly give directions it can be frustrating. It will be very helpful to simply give one's Eircode to repairmen, doctors, couriers and delivery men as they can enter the code in a cheap, widely available piece of equipment, like a satellite navigation system, and drive straight to the door. It will be a revolution when it comes to services for rural communities.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Most people will not know their Eircodes. The witnesses will use the corporate knowledge of An Post and Ordnance Survey Ireland to create a table that will allow drivers to know that Michael Colreavy's house is on Main Street, Manorhamilton.

Mr. John Tuohy:

Yes. Once the Eircode is attributed to an address it will be in the national database, so whether the Deputy knows it or not we can still look it up.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Tuohy is an excellent champion for Eircode.

Mr. John Tuohy:

Look, I promise I am not on commission, but I do think it is an excellent system as proposed. It is revolutionary, it is not like the postcodes in other countries. For rural communities in particular, being able to access services at low cost, from deliveries to repair men, is going to revolutionise how we deal with customers living in rural areas.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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To finish up, my background is as a postmaster. I am familiar with the issues Mr. Tuohy has articulated so well. I recall in one area we had five different families with the exact same name and surname. Trying to get successful deliveries to those people was a nightmare. Equally, where I live, in Castletownbere, frequently we would have Castletownbere, Castletownkinneigh, Castletownroche and Castletownsend all thrown into the mix and about 5% of mis-sorts or misdirected items would be just because there was confusion with the names.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Deputy Harrington was the postmaster in Castletownbere, bedad.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Well, when I see an item coming to Castletownbere when it is clearly for Castletownsend or Castletownroche----

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Yes because Dunkelly which is nearby----

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I could name all the different townlands in Castletownroche and Castletownkinneigh.

Mr. John Tuohy:

The great thing about this in Ireland is that we can keep all those things the same. There are nuances and there is history in those naming conventions and all the rest. We do not have to change any of that, which is great.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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There is one stakeholder who really needs to accept this and that is the public. If the public do not have confidence in the use of the postcode it will be the biggest inhibiting factor to a successful roll-out. I take the point about Capita.

Some operators did have genuine concerns and we have to take those as they are, but it seems to me that a trend has emerged whereby the high-volume operators like An Post and Nightline are more in favour of this code and those with fewer or larger items seem to have a difficulty. The implementation will be key and the public buy-in will be absolutely important. I am thinking of the public confidence.

To conclude, I think we have given the issue a very good airing and I thank Mr. Tuohy and Mr. Murray for their attendance and engagement. We hope to see a successful roll-out in the very near future.

At our next meeting we will have the Irish Hotels Federation, Retail Excellence Ireland and the drinks industry group.