Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 10 December 2014
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform
Operations and Functions: Office of Public Works
2:00 pm
Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The committee is in public session. I welcome Ms Clare McGrath, Chairman of the Office of Public Works, accompanied by Mr. Tony Smyth, director of engineering services, Mr. Mick Long, accountant, and Ms Colette Davis, press officer.
I remind members, witnesses and those in the public gallery that all mobile phones must be switched off. I wish to advise that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Ms Clare McGrath to make her opening remarks.
Ms Clare McGrath:
I am pleased to appear before the committee to discuss the operations and functioning of the Office of Public Works and answer any questions that members may have.
The Office of Public Works, as the committee is aware, is responsible for a wide variety of functions, with an overall budget of €381 million in the current financial year. The two principal functional areas of responsibility on which I wish to focus are the priority reform areas for Government of flood risk management and estate portfolio management.
In regard to flood risk management, the Office of Public Works is the lead agency for the management of flood risk in Ireland and has invested more than €400 million on behalf of the State in the period 1996 to 2014. The Government has committed €225 million to flood risk management under its Infrastructure and Capital Investment 2012–2016 Medium Term Exchequer Framework - a substantial capital allocation which is enabling the OPW to continue with its flood relief capital works programme in conjunction with local authorities.
In order to advance the State's approach to flood risk management in Ireland, the OPW has developed a catchment flood risk assessment and management programme, known as the CFRAM programme. This programme lies at the core of the assessment of flood risk management in Ireland and long-term planning of the flood risk management measures throughout the country. The CFRAM programme is a central pillar of national policy on flood risk management, and its implementation is also ensuring that Ireland will meet the requirements of the EU flood directive that came into force in November 2007.
At present, CFRAM is focused on 300 areas of potentially significant risk which were identified through a national screening exercise completed in 2011 following public consultation. It is important to recognise and understand that although CFRAM is identifying existing areas at risk of flooding based on the analysis of data collected, the CFRAM process is not creating any new risks. The current position is that draft flood maps are currently been produced for the areas for further assessment, and the OPW is rolling out a series of public consultation days on these draft maps in these areas. The maps will contribute directly to the improved management of flood risk in the medium to long term. It is only through the clear identification of existing risks or risks that may arise under different climate change scenarios that all the main stakeholders can work together towards the implementation of sustainable measures to effectively address that risk. In that regard, the OPW recently engaged in a public consultation with all the main stakeholders in Dublin Castle. In addition, OPW is engaged with the Department of Finance and Insure Ireland on the matter to ensure detailed information is made available to its member companies in an agreed format on completed flood relief schemes to allow it take that information fully into account when considering insurance cover for its customers.
With regard to progress to date, a number of major flood relief schemes have been completed or are nearing completion in Dublin, Clonmel, Carlow, Kilkenny, Mallow, Fermoy and Ennis. Further major schemes in Bray and Waterford and on the Dodder and Wad rivers in Dublin are currently under construction, and schemes at design stage include Cork, Bandon and Skibbereen. While we are running the CFRAM programme, in parallel, we are continuing with the capital investment programme.
In order to supplement the capacity to deal with flood risk, the OPW also provides funding to local authorities to undertake smaller-scale works to address localised flooding and coastal protection problems within their administrative areas. Funding of almost €30 million under this scheme has been allocated since 2009, involving up to 470 projects.
As the committee will be aware, earlier this year a number of severe flooding events occurred, mainly in coastal areas. The Government allocated €69.5 million for the repair and remediation of public infrastructure that was damaged. Some €19.6 million of this was allocated to OPW for repair of existing coastal protection and flood defences following the flood events of December 2013 and January 2014.
This funding is being made available in 2014 and 2015 to local authorities through the Office of Public Works based on programmes of works submitted by local authorities.
Another significant area of work carried out by the office is on the property side. The estate portfolio management programme encompasses the management, maintenance and development of the State's property portfolio. This includes the conservation, protection and presentation of national monuments and historic properties in State care. The programme, which has an overall budget of €312 million this year, provides a variety of services, including professional services such as architecture, engineering, valuation, quantity surveying and project management.
In recent years the number of staff in the public service has decreased, and this has presented an opportunity to achieve significant reductions in the cost of office accommodation, one of central government's largest administrative overheads after pay and pensions. The OPW has made significant progress in this area. For example, the rental outturn for Departments has fallen from €131 million in 2008 to an expected outturn this year of €94 million through a programme of lease renegotiations and surrenders. This programme will continue to deliver an annual cash saving of over €30 million for the Exchequer. The outturn may continue to fall further with the appropriate investment in office accommodation along with significant administrative savings for Departments and greater efficiency in property management.
Within the estate portfolio, the heritage services manage the conservation and presentation of 760 national monuments and 30 national historic properties, with a combined provision of 70 visitor centres throughout the country. The visitor numbers at our staffed heritage sites continue to grow, with over 4 million visitors recorded in 2013. Multiples of this number attend sites which are open throughout the country on an annual basis, and we do not note the numbers at these sites. As part of our efforts in this area, the office is engaging on an ongoing basis with parties in the tourism sector, including Fáilte Ireland, to ensure our strategy is aligned with overall investment strategies for tourism.
I will set out the position on property asset management reform and the Government's agenda in this area. The OPW's evolving role under the property reform programme is a significant undertaking. It is being progressed against the backdrop of continuing rationalisation of the portfolio, to which I have adverted, and this has seen our rental outturn fall significantly. The ownership of State property in Ireland is legally vested in many State authorities and agencies. At times, this can result in an independent approach by each State entity in managing its portfolio. Changing this approach to a more centralised model through legislation would be an onerous undertaking and, therefore, ownership remains the same. However, a collaborative approach to reform has been adopted in this area through the establishment by Government of the steering group on property asset management reform, a committee which I chair. The steering group is comprised of representatives from the wider public service, including the County and City Managers' Association, the HSE and senior public servants nominated by virtue of their Department's role as property holders as well as their oversight role in respect of bodies under their aegis. The primary objectives of this group are to secure property related reforms, and we are seeing progress on many of these. The objectives include improving our combined strategic decision-making capability in managing the State's property assets, developing an intra-public-service map-based register of all State property, standardising building performance measurement or key performance indicators throughout the public service, developing a more co-ordinated approach to State property acquisitions, intra-state property transfers and asset sharing protocols, and optimising our expertise throughout the public service and benchmarking ourselves against international best practice. I expect that if we achieve these deliverables, real savings will be attained. They will be realised by sharing assets, expertise and information throughout the public service as well as through streamlining administrative and legal property transactions.
Already we are seeing more effective engagement and use of the State's property assets, including optimisation of the use of State facilities for the public good through our disposal programme. This includes the provision of several surplus properties to community and voluntary groups and the transfer of certain properties to councils for various other uses and to other bodies in the public sector. Separately, the office has engaged with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government in respect of the current homelessness issue. Several properties under the OPW's remit have been examined for their suitability with a view to identifying interim solutions. This engagement is ongoing. We work closely with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and other public bodies in this area.
In the area of office rationalisation, Ministers have committed to ensuring that their Departments and agencies co-operate fully with the implementation process such that the State can achieve better utilisation of the existing portfolio. This can be realised through accommodation sharing across the public service, for example, as well as more modern, open-plan and cost-effective accommodation solutions and work practices. I believe the drive to optimise office space utilisation will be enhanced and facilitated by statistical evidence setting out the full cost of accommodation borne by the State. This evidence will derive from the key performance indicators arising from the application of a standardised approach to facilities management to be adopted by public property managers. This will provide a basis on which to assess building performance and identify where improvements in space and energy efficiency can be achieved. In the meantime, the OPW must continue to respond effectively to the property-related requirements of new Government programmes such as Intreo, as well as sustaining our core day-to-day business.
In order to meet these needs of the Government, we have initiated a process of internal organisational change to ensure the optimum alignment of our processes, resources and structures to sustain day-to-day activities and position the OPW to lead the programme of property-related reforms. I thank the committee and I am happy to answer any questions members may have on our operations or functions.
2:10 pm
Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Before we proceed, I ask members to note that I propose to adhere to the same grounds rules as for our last meeting with the banks. This will ensure that everyone gets an opportunity to ask questions, and we can have the best possible meeting. I propose that the lead speakers of the groups take ten minutes, although I do not imagine that will be such an issue. They will be followed by other committee members, who will have five minutes each. The clerk and I will be keeping an eye on the clock, and I will advise members when they have one minute to go in their contributions.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the Acting Chairman for that advice. Ms McGrath and her colleagues are welcome to the committee meeting. First, I wish to deal with flood risk management. Following that, I intend to deal with property-related issues.
Will the commissioner explain the position on catchment areas, which are important in respect of flood risk management? The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government water investment programme was based on the catchment areas of certain rivers and where they enter the sea. We have become accustomed to that. There was a logic to the framework because it ties in to the source of the water and rivers in the various counties.
Surface water is an issue when rivers are flooding. The OPW has a role in this area, as do local authorities. I do not intend to delve into the day-to-day matters in this area, but Irish Water has a role as well. Will Ms McGrath outline the work the OPW has done up to now in conjunction with local authorities, especially in cases of flooding, surface water and public area flooding? How do these types of flooding affect sources or lead to pollution? How does flooding lead to pollution with wastewater from treatment plants?
What role does the OPW have in respect of Irish Water? I have some concerns about the setting up of the new body. Off the top of my head I can think of three state organisations - namely, the OPW, local authorities and Irish Water - which now have an involvement with water when it emerges on the streets of a town or when water and wastewater services and sources are affected. Will Ms McGrath set out the OPW's position and explain any discussions with Irish Water on this issue?
Ms Clare McGrath:
The role of the Office of Public Works is underpinned by legislation, particularly the relevant 1945 and 1995 Acts. We undertake schemes for river or fluvial flooding. These are capital investment works and we maintain these schemes. Where we do work, we maintain the schemes. Separately, local authorities have responsibility for district schemes under different legislation. These are clearly identified. Local authorities have responsibility in that area and they are funded centrally for it.
In 2004 the Government produced a flood risk management policy document which set out the position overall on flood risk management. The document sought to identify roles and responsibilities in respect of the entire area.
In respect of rivers flooding and coastal flooding, the Office in Public Works had lead responsibility in terms of future flood risk management but co-ordinates responsibilities across a lot of stakeholders.
The Deputy talked about urban drainage. That is the responsibility of local authorities. If that responsibility is moving then it is a responsibility between local authorities and Irish Water.
2:20 pm
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Urban flooding can result from fluvial flooding.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
OPW is responsible for flooding but once it happens it is up to the local authority and Irish Water to sort out their problems. Is that correct?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Where is the demarcation line?
Mr. Tony Smyth:
There are three broad categories of flooding apart from groundwater. First, flooding from rivers which is called fluvial flooding and we have responsibility to bring forward schemes to protect against such flooding. Second, there is coastal flooding from tidal or tidal surge for which the OPW can bring forward schemes along with local authorities who have a role under the Coast Protection Act. The third element, which is the type mentioned by the Deputy, is the design and maintenance of urban infrastructure and is a matter for the local authorities. In terms of the capacity of urban infrastructure, it is for local authorities to size up those pipes as part of road drainage or that.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The OPW will say drainage is a matter for local authorities but my simple view is that a lack of drainage causes flooding. In other words, if rivers are not properly drained and maintained flooding will result which then becomes a problem for the OPW.
We are all familiar with joint drainage boards between local authorities but the initiative was abolished recently. Their demise is connected to the local election results of last year because new municipal authorities have since been established. Let me give a classic example. Part of the Barrow Drainage Board, affecting Offaly, Laois, Kildare and Carlow, has been abolished and local authorities have been told to sort the matter out themselves. The joint approach is not underpinned and the statutory instrument has been dissolved. What has happened in those towns? The OPW has a scheme in Carlow under way which came about as a result of flooding on the River Barrow. Portarlington suffered flooding on the same river as does Athy and different areas. Does the lack of drainage and maintenance by local authorities lead to problems for the OPW? Do the local authorities say: "If the problem gets bad enough OPW will have to come up with a scheme?"
Ms Clare McGrath:
I have been concerned about this situation. These drainage districts are the responsibility of local authorities and that is where responsibility remains. We provide some support for this situation through the minor flood risk and coastal protection programme. The scheme allows local authorities to apply where there are capacity issues. Subject to meeting particular criteria, cost benefit criteria and funding by us allows them to apply for funding for certain areas. We would not take over responsibility for maintenance, a task which rests with them for their areas.
Under the catchment flood risk and assessment management plans we are looking at the 300 areas of greatest risk, irrespective of where responsibilities lie. In respect of those areas, we will bring forward, in 2015, and will outline design stage schemes for the 300 areas, including 90 coastal areas. We will also take account of climate change impacts. In those areas we will take on the development of programmes of work, and subject to capacity and funding, we will bring those forward over a number of years.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The OPW has mapped areas and I accept it has not created any new flood risk areas. Perhaps it has put down on paper what is considered a 100-year or 1,000-year event. The maps are a good thing. However, they have worked their way into county development plans causing difficulties, correctly so in some areas, for planning applications. The maps have had a far greater impact than people appreciated. A 1,000-year event is now included on these maps. I have encountered instances where banks have been unwilling to advance mortgages in areas and towns where the local people have no recollection of flooding in the past 100 years. Now the OPW has recorded flood risks on its maps even though it is a 1,000-year event. Some banks are nervous about the risk of flooding. The maps have been positive but there have been downsides for the citizens. Some of the 1,000-year events are based on hearsay and colloquialism. I have seen instances where such details on a development plan have been challenged and removed. The NRA is consulted about planning applications if a flood risk affects a national route. Do local authorities consult legally the OPW about planning applications in areas that the OPW has identified in its maps as flood risk areas? What is the OPW's view on the matter?
Ms Clare McGrath:
In 2011 the preliminary flood risk maps, which are predictive in nature, were completed following public consultation. Then guidance was issued by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, in consultation with the OPW, on planning locally in respect of areas covered by these maps. As the Deputy has rightly said, the OPW does not create risk but identifies where areas are at risk. Local authorities should take account of that information when they make decisions.
Recently the Minister referenced the fact that where decisions are made to build in areas at risk an issue for the taxpayer will come later. A defence scheme must be installed to mitigate the risk at a later date. There is an issue around housing. We are saying that these are the maps, this is the identification of risk and guidance is provided for local authorities. There is guidance for their local area planning and development and there are guidelines on how they might treat such information. We expect that they are dealing with such information. We do not deal with individual planning applications in that sense.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about an area that has no planning but has houses and streets that are now deemed to suffer a 100-year event? Banks have adopted a particular view on established houses which are not new dwellings because a county development plan has identified an area as being at risk. The maps have put an incumbrance on a lot of houses.
Ms Clare McGrath:
There is a justification test for centres of town that local authorities plan to develop. For a particular location, notwithstanding what is identified in the maps, there are justifiable reasons for proceeding and planning reasons for that type of development because of the nature of the location in towns. The local authorities take these matters into consideration.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When will the OPW complete compiling its list of 300 areas at greatest risk? Is it 20, 30, 40 or 50 years?
Ms Clare McGrath:
During 2015 we will have identified all of the work for the areas. Then we will have to calculate how much funding is needed. Funding will be based on the nature of the scheme and then it will become a capacity issue in terms of funding. At the minute we are funded in the order of €45 million.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can the OPW supply us a list of applications received from local authorities for funding due to flood that happened last winter? What is the cost? Can Ms McGrath give me an estimate? She said it had cost the OPW over €60 million.
Ms Clare McGrath:
In terms of storm damage, we have listed on a monthly basis all of the applications made to us and the approvals on the OPW website opw.ie. Local authorities have drawn down €2.7 million to November and we may have further applications. We have put the information on the amount of moneys drawn down on our website. We also identify, on our website, what local authorities sought when they made applications to the Department of Environment, Community and Local Government for funding for this issue. All of the information is on our website.
2:30 pm
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What amount was drawn down?
Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses from the OPW for appearing before the joint committee. I have two questions but I wish to follow up on a point made by Deputy Fleming about flooding having a knock-on effect for private property owners in residential areas, in particular. I am aware of a stream in local authority owned land flooding in 2010. As a result the row of houses that back onto that land have not been able to get home insurance because of an inappropriate loading on their policies. Upstream on publicly owned land, as far as I am aware vested in the Minister of Finance, there was a blockage at the mouth of a river where it met the sea. This resulted in the water backing up in the stream that caused this problem in Kinsealy in 2010. The local authority washed its hands of responsibility on the basis that it was private property, however, it was not, it was public property. I am aware of similar instances in a number of places. I am not entirely sure if Ms McGrath will be able to give me an answer. There are major knock-on effects when maintenance of ditches or steams in public ownership does not occur.
I wish to raise the issue of coastal erosion. Ms McGrath will be familiar with what occurred in Portrane a year or so ago. While the OPW has been very helpful in providing funding, which has been matched by Fingal County Council to complete a study, inertia is creeping in. The storms will blow in very shortly and there are homes a couple of metres from the water mark of the tidal surges 12 months ago. I understand the necessity for the studies, but homes are located in areas where they should not be, but that is not at issue, but the local representatives have to deal with the impact of tidal surges. Ms McGrath's comments would be appreciated.
Ms Clare McGrath:
The OPW works with local authorities, who have particular responsibilities under the legislation, for coastal protection. We are minded to provide support and advice as well as funding to enable the local authorities to deal with coastal protection. Unlike flooding, coastal erosion is a natural phenomenon that must be addressed, in doing so, priority must be given to where there are homes. In fairness, I think that is what local authorities are doing.
The physical work in doing all flood protection work is technically very challenging. When dealing with coastal erosion, other factors are at play because it is a natural phenomenon and one must be careful of what one does further up and down from the site of the works.
We are mindful that the local authority would be working to find solutions but it does require complete and detailed surveys and analysis to inform the decision. It is then a question of how quickly it can be expedited. We would be supporting the local authorities by assuring them that funding is ringfenced for the work. I appreciate that is of little comfort to people in homes.
Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I accept that. To be fair, the previous Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW, the former Deputy Brian Hayes, came to a large meeting in the area and the OPW was not found wanting in terms of the manner and the speed at which it came up with the money.
The other side of the problem is that under the law, people cannot erect block walls even on a temporary basis while these surveys are taking place. I accept fully the knock-on effect of putting in inappropriate flood defences. I am aware that work done in Rush had a knock-on effect in Donabate and Portrane causing other issues to arise.
As Ms McGrath said, the surveys take time and this offers no real comfort to homeowners. I know some have taken the law into their own hands and put in place various measures that are not in compliance with environmental legislation and will probably not stand up to the test of time.
Has the OPW received an increase in funding to deal with these issues? Has it the potential to make greater investment in programmes and studies on coastal protection? I am very aware that coastal erosion occurs in the main on the west coast, but Donabate and Portrane are low lying and are protected in the main by a ring of dunes, most of which have been breached in the past three or four years during particular storms.
Ms Clare McGrath:
Funding for flood risk management, including coastal protection, was not cut. Other parts of our allocation were cut, but there have been no cuts in our allocation for this work since 2008. Government has ensured that funding is in place to support this work.
I would say, and it is a policy question, that the legislation covering this area dates from 1963. I think there are things we can consider - and we want to move into that space - in regard to coastal protection. We are looking at 90 coastal areas as part of the CFRAM programme, and taking account of climate change. We will be dealing with some of the more populated areas, because they meet the criteria of the programme. In 2009, we introduced the minor flood risk and coastal protection scheme through which we are providing the funding to local authorities. I think the local authorities have an issue with their capacity to deal with that number. The local authorities had to deal with storms in January.
Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will Ms McGrath let me know about the 1963 Act, as I would be interested in taking a look at it?
I wish to turn to my next point, as I am running out of time. I have a question on the care of our built heritage. I am a fan of Leinster House and other buildings in State ownership, many of which were lost at the founding of the State. I am glad to say that a number of buildings are beginning to flourish. There is a significant number of notable properties where there are difficulties with ownership.
I understand that Aldborough House, in Portland Row, Dublin which had been neglected for more than a decade has been purchased. It is as notable as Leinster House in terms of its importance. There are a number of properties right across the country, one in County Sligo, which I understand has been purchased recently but was allow to become dilapidated for 20 years.
Properties have been purchased by the State over the years. Is this Government policy or a response to political pressure? Is there an allocation in the Vote of the OPW to consider buying properties that are at extreme risk? Does McGrath envisage that more money will be allocated to do this in the coming years? It is fair to say that the Department of Finance has worked on the policy in regard to the maintenance of significant properties, by giving property owners the opportunity to avail of certain tax breaks to rejuvenate properties. Is the OPW considering that actively?
Ms Clare McGrath:
Chairman, the policy in this area resides with the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. Decisions on State acquisition of property from private owners do not come under our remit, other than through section 1003A of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997.
We have an involvement at that end of things. In relation to the former, it is a decision of the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht as to whether a property would be included. This has not happened, but where a property was required, the Department might look to the Office of Public Works, a local authority or community group to manage and maintain it. Our role in this area is in respect of the properties that are in our care. There is an aspect of this where by reason of issues around access or issues with adjoining properties in relation to properties in our care, we might think strategically and determine what is important in respect of the heritage property we have. We would treat with that as we have the core property and might see opportunities. There is no direct funding and we look to that in relation to our own resources. It is about doing it strategically out over a number of years and we would obtain Department of Public Expenditure and Reform sanction around that. In terms of the Deputy's originating question, we would not be looking at privately held properties and requests in that space, which would be policy matters for the Department.
2:40 pm
Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It might be the case that such a property, if it were purchased, would end up in OPW care, but that would not be initiated by the office.
Alan Farrell (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I understand. I thank Ms McGrath.
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome the representatives of the OPW, which does tremendous work in the various tasks it is set under legislation and by the State. It was stated that applications from local authorities are on the OPW website. I could not find them when I looked. Can the witnesses tell me if there are any applications in yet from County Meath in relation to recent flood events in Ashbourne?
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When was that granted?
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Meath County Council was granted €75,000.
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
This money was not drawn down.
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Ms McGrath know what that was in respect of?
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are there applications in from Meath County Council in relation to recent flood events? An OPW official very kindly visited Ashbourne some time ago. There were quite a number of flood events in County Meath approximately four weeks ago.
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would be grateful for that.
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that on the small works scheme?
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am familiar with some of them.
Ms Clare McGrath:
They have to meet cost-benefit criteria and be set out by the relevant local authority. I am concerned to say that in regard to this programme, local authorities should look to see if they comply with the criteria and then determine whether they should apply. I would prefer that to be the case than to have an application made that the local authority knows does not comply.
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Who maintains the projects?
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
A small works scheme was granted in Drumconrath at the River Neagh and some people have suggested that other problems have been caused upstream or downstream as a result. The local authority in the first instance would look at that and come to the OPW if it needed more money to do more work.
Ms Clare McGrath:
At all times, where a local authority undertakes work, it takes on the responsibility for the maintenance. I should have said in reply to an earlier question that what we call the owners on either side of a river, the repairing owners as they may be known, have responsibilities for maintenance in this area as well.
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I refer briefly to Oldbridge House. I congratulate the OPW and its staff there who do tremendous work. It is a major tourism attraction and benefit to the community of east Meath and south Louth, being located on the county border. Aisling and her team there do tremendous work. I brought my children there at Hallowe'en and there were things in terms of children's entertainment one would not have expected the State to provide, but it was fantastic. Hundreds of families enjoy the amenity every day during the summer.
There was a proposal I promoted when we were in government and which the former Minister of State, Brian Hayes, supported to install a playground at Oldbridge estate. The OPW had a proposal to provide substantial funds in the range of six figures on condition that Meath County Council would also provide some money. As far as I can tell, the local authority has always rejected any suggestion that it would offer a share of funding as the playground at Oldbridge would benefit villages in Meath that Meath County Council could not supply with playgrounds for various reasons. It would also benefit a number of villages in Louth and Drogheda. I am thinking of Donore, Slane and the general east Meath area. Given that the OPW has the funds and the planning permission, would it not be better to provide a smaller playground and forget about the Meath County Council contribution? It would provide a huge benefit to the site in terms of attracting visitors. Children could play while parents looked at the house and visited the restaurant. It would attract more people. Is it possible for the OPW to do a solo run on this and to provide the playground itself? It would be very welcome in the area.
Ms Clare McGrath:
I can appreciate that. I sometimes see the OPW as something of a national local authority in the sense that it provides central services for Government in local areas. However, I suggest that it is important that local communities as represented by their local authorities participate in this. The Office of Public Works would be providing the site and funding, but I understood that it had been agreed that the local authority would participate. Setting up a playground involves many health and safety issues and it must be carefully done.
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Presumably, the OPW wants the playground given that it sought planning permission.
Ms Clare McGrath:
Yes. We see it as an addition to the facility, but it has a wider aspect in the context of the community. There is a community gain and the local authority was part of that. I would be concerned that we create expectations of joint approaches with joint responsibility rather than to have either one of us stepping back.
Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Unfortunately, what has happened in the meantime is that a welcome expectation was created by applying for planning permission. For various reasons, Meath County Council did not want to go for it. It says it has no money whereas the OPW has a certain amount. It is getting caught now and families are losing out. The OPW and the site itself are losing out by not having it. The OPW was able to spend a great deal of money recently on the walled garden, which is fabulous.
Ms Clare McGrath:
The garden project was funded under our conservation and preservation remit. In terms of prioritisation, I note that while the Government has ring-fenced the funding on the flood risk management side, there has been a cut of 89% since 2008 in the capital aspect of the Vote. All areas have to be prioritised. On our heritage side, we look to other bodies, including Fáilte Ireland and the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, to support us in funding initiatives around the care of our estate. It is not all from our own resources and it is an important principle in terms of the long-term sustainability of certain of the properties to look to communities as well. When I say "communities", I am looking to local authorities in relation to the care of the estate within their areas. We play our role as do they. I thank the Senator.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is fair to say the eyes of the world are not on these proceedings, but there are a few issues I wish to raise with the OPW, the representatives of which I thank for being here. The OPW is a powerful organisation which reaches into every county and a great many communities.
The work it carries out impacts on those communities.
I wish to raise three issues. One is flooding and the catchment flood risk assessment and management programme, CFRAM, which is probably the OPW's flagship project in respect of flooding. There is a jaundiced view in Cork, which tends to happen when an area is repeatedly flooded and there is a perception that no practical steps have been taken. What is the position regarding Cork city flood relief measures? There is a public consultation but when can people expect to see activity on addressing the root causes of recurring flooding in the city, given the huge adverse impact it is having on business and residential areas? There is view about CFRAM that a great deal of money has been spent on consultants and reports but there are very few practical measures, particularly in the Cork area? I realise that is not the case elsewhere and that there have been some works in west Cork, but perhaps Ms McGrath would give me an update on the city.
2:50 pm
Ms Clare McGrath:
I will ask the director of engineering to reply to that. With regard to what the Office of Public Works does, I am concerned about the perception that there are lots of reports and so forth. A total of 38,000 mapped areas will emerge from the CFRAM in this regard. It will involve the 300 areas I have mentioned, 90 of which are coastal. In our work we take the greatest degree of care to ensure we are not adding to risk, upstream or downstream. That involves a great deal of work.
It is important that the committee knows what is involved in bringing a scheme forward. There are very complex engineering and construction operations where physical works are involved. These impact a great deal on people's lives, the built heritage and the natural environment. They require lengthy decision-making. When we reach the point of carrying out works, we are going in on and interfering with other people's property and we revert the property to them when we have completed the works. That is unlike when we are carrying out construction work on a building site. There are, therefore, long lead-in times, including lead-in consultation times. At all times we have regard to and take account of what the public says about the schemes we are proposing.
The aspects of the scheme contributing to the length of time include establishing the most appropriate solution, technically and economically, from the various ranges of mitigation options. It is quite complex in the lower Lee area. Quite correctly, there is extensive public consultation at the various stages so all those affected by it and even some who are not directly affected but who have a view on the scheme have an input to the design. Ecological and archaeological issues invariably arise. They must be analysed and we must provide the necessary information to ensure we get the proper statutory consent. There is constant balancing between providing the protection from flooding on the one side and on the other side ensuring we are not doing harm ecologically, environmentally or in other places as well. Then there are the processes and timescales for procuring. We do not undertake the work ourselves. We largely maintain schemes, so consultants and contractors are required. That is done under EU procurement and there is a time period attached to it as well.
It is a very long process given the nature of what we are doing. I will ask my colleague, the director of engineering, to discuss the lower Lee scheme.
Mr. Tony Smyth:
The design is under way. The complexity of that area is trying to get the balance between reducing the constructed flood defences in the city and using the ESB reservoirs in Carrigadrohid and Innishcarra as a storage mechanism when a flood is coming. That requires getting the technology of that and the forecasting system right, understanding what type of flood would come down and how the dam storage can be utilised, that is, to empty it first before the flood arrives and then to store the flood, which in turn will reduce the extent of works necessary through the city and, therefore, the cost of those works. That is ongoing with design consultants at present. We are hoping to go to statutory exhibition in the spring. It is a little later than we had expected, but it is driven by the timeline of the consultants in coming to a conclusion and working with the ESB and the councils in Cork.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Ms McGrath spoke about the balance between the ecological and the environmental concerns versus the flood risk. Where is the line drawn? Most people would say that in many respects we have gone overboard in terms of being environmentally correct, at great human and financial cost for homes and businesses. Where does the OPW see the appropriate line or balance in that regard?
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The twin villages of Inchigeelagh and Ballingeary on the upper Lee stretch had a recurring problem with flooding for several years. Nearly every winter they might be under two or three feet of water. A couple of years ago, the then Minister of State, Brian Hayes, approved minor flood relief works funding for the local authority in respect of the two villages. There was resistance in the context of the CFRAM, which did not wish to facilitate anything. The Minister of State stuck his neck out and provided for some minor works. It involved minor river cleaning along the banks of the river and there has not been a problem in those villages - one cannot say there will not be - in the years since those works were carried out. It is vital that we do not put all our eggs in one basket. There are minor relief works that can be very effective and cost relatively small amounts. I believe it did not cost more than €30,000 in respect of both villages. A house or business that is destroyed costs multiples of that amount, and there were several of them under feet of water in those villages. What is the position with minor works funding on an annual basis and ensuring these small sums of money, which can have a significant dividend, are still available to deal with localised flooding problems outside the CFRAM framework?
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is the budget for 2014 for minor flood relief works?
Ms Clare McGrath:
It is in excess of €2 million. That would be for schemes - there could be a substantial scheme costing up to €500,000 but they are largely schemes costing €30,000 to €40,000 - and where a study is required. It is not for maintenance but for schemes where there is an identifiable measure that could be put in place to alleviate risk. It does not remove responsibility from the owner in respect of maintenance, and I would not like it to move into that area. Actual works is what would be prioritised by us in respect of the applications.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Perhaps Ms McGrath would refer back to me on the funding that was sanctioned under that heading for Crookstown village.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
My next question relates to the property management area, which will be of interest to the Chairman and others.
Could the witnesses outline the protocols it has with regard to the purchase of lands in conjunction with other State authorities, in particular local authorities? I refer in particular to the decentralisation project.
3:00 pm
Ms Clare McGrath:
I am chair of the property asset management reform agenda, and we are examining the establishment of a property register of the estate of the State so we could avoid the State having to acquire land or property in the future. Regard will be given to the overall estate of the State and whether decisions can be made in regard to the register of where property in the State is sourced. We have used that for Cork County Council and Fingal County Council, where we now have protocols and are sharing accommodation or making our property available to other public bodies or they are making their property available to us.
We are doing that under new protocols, involving single valuations agreed by the Valuation Office and single legal advices, in order that the procurement of assets for the State is done in the most efficient and cost-effective manner. It is something about which we are concerned. We are an organisation which has a lot of responsibility around office accommodation. Our footprint has fallen by upwards of €30 million in rent annually. Other public bodies also have office accommodation and through this new system we are looking to see how we can extract further value, in particular where we are leasing accommodation, and share accommodation.
We are going into properties which local authorities have and they may share property we have. We are driving efficiency on the State's footprint into the future. The protocols have been established with a view to intra-State property transactions being done as effectively as possible between public bodies in the interests of the public purse.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can I finish this issue, with the indulgence of the Acting Chairman? Ms McGrath referred to driving efficiency in the State's footprint. I want to draw her attention to a specific issue, which may have been flagged with her in advance. The OPW, in conjunction with Cork County Council, for the decentralisation programme went about the purchase of a site in Kanturk for a decentralised Government Department. Cork County Council feels particularly aggrieved about the process. It acted in good faith on behalf of the OPW and was hung out to dry when the Government pulled the plug on the decentralisation project. It was left paying for lands when it had acted in good faith. It also acted in the public interest, but was left holding a bill of €166,000 which the OPW claims it is not contractually bound to repay. Do the witnesses have any views on that?
Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To clarify, is there any legal dispute about that at the current time?
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is no legal dispute.
Ms Clare McGrath:
We are in discussions with Cork County Council. The OPW, on behalf of the State, acquired a lot of land from local authorities during decentralisation for particular prices at the time. We are holding the land and have found alternative uses for it for other public services in quite a number of locations. Decisions were made and we are in discussions with the local authority. Properties were acquired for decentralisation and decisions were made to suspend it, leaving entities with properties which we now have to deal with in the new environment.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I want to finish this important issue.
Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have gone way over time.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I appreciate that. I do not accept the point made. Cork County Council has been left with the property. It bought it for the OPW. I have a copy of all correspondence. In recent times the OPW sought-----
Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Deputy can come back to that later. We have to be fair to everyone else.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome the witnesses. I wish to raise the same issue as Deputy Creed, namely, the Cork city flood scheme. It is probably a question Mr. Smyth can address. He outlined the hope of beginning a statutory exhibition in spring of 2015. What would that involve? Would it include the latest design proposals? I ask him to talk me through the steps involved in getting to the point of flood relief works taking place.
Mr. Tony Smyth:
It is at design stage at the moment. The design of the flood defences in the city are being developed, including the new operating environment for the reservoir, with different discharge protocols and a forecasting system that would inform the operators of the dam when they might draw it down to create storage and hold back part of the flood so that flood defences would be adequate for whatever flood comes along.
That will go to public statutory exhibition in the spring. It will be open to the public to comment at that time and we will take any comments or observations. It is a statutory process and we will determine whether what the public has to say to us will inform any changes. The process will then move to a detailed design to prepare tender documentation for a construction contract.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When would the OPW hope to finalise the detailed design and be in a position to go to tender for construction?
Mr. Tony Smyth:
We would hope a civil works contract would take place early in 2016. There will probably be a four or five year construction period. It is a fairly substantial scheme and probably one of the largest we have done. We hope all the procurement issues go smoothly because the project is complex and intricate.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The expectation is that the work would start in 2016.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I know Mr. Smyth cannot provide a budget until the final design is in place. What is the indicative likely spend at this stage?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I wish to raise a related issue. Last September, Insurance Ireland wrote to local Deputies about the plans the OPW had put on display during the summer. It raised quite a serious concern. The flood relief works will be designed to prevent another flood from happening and, it is to be hoped, give enough confidence to the insurance sector for it to begin providing flood cover again for businesses and households in Cork city.
There are serious concerns about the plans that went on display and Insurance Ireland made it pretty clear that it was not satisfied that the standard of work put on display would be sufficient to allow flood cover to be reinstated. Is the OPW engaging with Insurance Ireland to bring it on board, address its concerns and make sure that it is satisfied with the final design so that flood cover can be reinstated in a few years' time for people in Cork city?
Mr. Tony Smyth:
Yes, we raised that matter with Insurance Ireland when we met the Minister of State, Deputy Harris, and Insurance Ireland a month or six weeks ago. The flood scheme in Cork is not driven by a sum of money, which it seemed to indicate in its letter. Rather, it is driven by providing a particular standard of protection against flooding. The budget is then developed to support that. A cost-benefit analysis and other things have to be done, but we do not start with a sum of money and see what we can get for it. We start with a level of protection and then determine how much that costs. We raised the issue that it was of concern. It is too early for it to make a call. That can be done when it sees the scheme in spring 2015.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It raised a specific issue, namely, that in its opinion the number of demountables and floodgates do not meet the required flood defence standard of 1:100 years as of 1 January 2012, which insurers generally regard as essential before they would consider providing flood cover in respect of private dwellings and small businesses.
It was being quite specific about the fact that what is saw on public display last summer was not sufficient for it to reinstate flood cover.
3:10 pm
Mr. Tony Smyth:
It referred to the issue of demountable defences before because they require some intervention if they are to provide protection. There is not a large number of demountables proposed to be installed in Cork but there may be particular areas where access to a river is required. An example is in Mallow, where the main street has to be closed off with a demountable defence. There is no alternative given the way the river floods into the main street in the town. The Deputy probably knows it.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
At this remove, is Mr. Smyth confident that the industry can be brought on board?
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there a commitment to fund the capital works that will be required in 2016 and beyond? Is that decided annually or is there a multi-annual budget?
Ms Clare McGrath:
The medium-term expenditure. The funding is phased over a number of years. Cork is obviously one of the 300 areas for further assessment that I spoke about so it would be prioritised within the CFRAM programme. It is now being developed. As I stated, while we are developing the CFRAM for the 300 areas, work on certain areas is already completed or in train. They will be the first within the overall programme. It is the case that, unless there is a change, this will be accounted for in our budgeting.
Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am glad that Ms McGrath is engaging with the insurance industry because only yesterday a man from Blackrock in Cork city telephoned me stating he had to take out a new policy under which he was not able to get flood cover although his area had not been flooded. The insurance industry just seems to have a red flag over Cork city in respect of flood cover. I refer also to subsidence on the south side of the city but that is a different matter.
I wish to raise the way in which minor flood relief work programmes or projects are managed. The delegation may revert to the committee on the detail of the case I wish to raise, which relates to a specific location, the Glen, Glenbrook, Passage West, County Cork. I highlight it as an example because a number of houses there were very badly flooded in November 2009. What has transpired since, five years later, can only be described as a circus. In 2010, the OPW provided funding under the scheme of approximately €100,000. There was a small element of co-funding from the council so the total fund came to €110,000. Since 2010, a number of consultants have been appointed. Approximately €35,000 has been spent on consultancy fees but a shovel has not been lifted. I believe there is now an agreed design in place, and the project has been costed at a sum in excess of €300,000. Since the funding committed was €110,000, the council is now scratching its head over how it is to make up the shortfall. There must be a better way of managing projects like this. Money was being spent designing a project that was never likely to be funded. Approximately one third of the money originally allocated is gone on consultancy costs. There is now a more elaborate design, which was not originally anticipated, and there is no money to do the work. The residents cannot get flood cover. They were badly flooded and are coming to us for answers. To be honest, we have been banging our heads against the wall for the past few years. This is a specific example and I do not expect answers now.
Ms Clare McGrath:
I will come back to the committee on the specifics. In general, we are constantly seeking to review the minor flood works. Therefore, if there is a matter in the area in question that we need to take on board in terms of our processing and treatment procedures, we will do so. We constantly do random sampling of the methods used by local authorities to deal with this matter to ensure auditing of how money is being spent. As I stated, I am anxious that local authorities have regard to the criteria of the scheme before making an application. We set out very clearly what is involved and what needs to be done. We expect councils to have regard to the criteria in advance of making an application and to be of the belief that the project is feasible. It is problematic when a project turns out not to be cost beneficial. There are steps that could be taken at local level or at the level of individual houses. I welcome the points made by the Deputy. We will revert to him on the specifics, on the reviewing of the actual programme and on what we are doing.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms McGrath and her colleagues. I have one question, specifically on Limerick city. Although there have been updates, what is the current position on installing the defence mechanisms at King's Island? What is the latest timeframe for the work being carried out? A steering group under the auspices of the local authority was set up recently. A meeting was due.
Mr. Tony Smyth:
It is obviously part of the regeneration of the city. What we will do is ask the CFRAM consultant, whose next step on having identified the extent of the flooding on the maps will be to identify the options for solving the problem. We are looking to him for a price with a view to accelerating the process. The Limerick authorities are also thinking of appointing a consultant for the detailed design. We are just trying to marry the two processes so there will not be repetition.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Has the CFRAM consultant finished the mapping?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In Limerick city.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What is the anticipated timeframe before the construction of the defence mechanisms?
Mr. Tony Smyth:
The construction and detailed design will be tied to the regeneration because it depends on what one will do on the island and where one might build the flood defences and whether they are built out at the river or back a bit. That all has to be part of the planning of the regeneration process. The actual construction can happen at a different time but the thinking through of what is to happen on the island as part of the regeneration is an important dimension. This comes before building flood defences in a place where they might have to be taken down again to accommodate regeneration.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is the work of the consultant who has carried out the mapping concluded?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How long will that take?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Mr. Smyth anticipate he will have the options early next year?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That would obviously be in consultation with Limerick city and county councils in terms of the regeneration project. That will determine the types of defence mechanisms.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there any indicative timeframe for the work?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The sequence involves the conclusion of the CFRAM mapping, deciding on the options and the marrying of the options with regeneration. The mapping is concluded and the next step involves the options.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
This is a major issue in Limerick, as the delegates will be aware, and it is very much an issue for the people of St. Mary’s Park, Lower Corbally and Athlunkard Street, which were heavily flooded in recent times. I very much urge the delegates to address this issue with urgency.
3:20 pm
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is mentioned in the opening statement that the Government allocated €69.5 million for repairs and remedial works, from which some €19.6 million was allocated to the Office of Public Works. This means that the balance of €50 million was available to local authorities. Am I correct in all of this? Was the €19.6 million allocated to the OPW part of the €69.5 million, or was it additional?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about the remaining €50 million?
Ms Clare McGrath:
It was allocated to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine because it was for the repair of damaged infrastructure. Some of the infrastructure to which I refer was damaged by flooding but not all of it.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I ask Ms McGrath to send the committee a note on how the sum of €69.5 million was distributed because it reads as though the money was within the budget of the OPW. She mentioned the figure of €69.5 million, €19.6 million of which applies to the OPW, but we do not know how the rest is broken down. The OPW is dealing with the flooding issue.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It may be in the public domain, but it is not known to me. Of the €19.6 million allocated to the OPW, was €2.7 million paid out?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Ms McGrath has said some of the information is on the OPW's website and we saw how €2.7 million was drawn down in a handful of counties, but I have not seen a list of the applications.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
As I could not find the information easily while we were talking, Ms McGrath might send us a note giving us a breakdown of the figure of €19.6 million, highlighting the allocations to local authorities and drawdowns to date.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Perhaps Ms McGrath might circulate the figures for the benefit of the members who are not present. The Government allocated the other €50 million for the repair of damaged public infrastructure and this money is spread over other Departments. We can follow up with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, but I ask Ms McGrath to advise us as to which Departments to contact. Will the work be done by these Departments or will local authorities apply to the Departments involved?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are there two schemes for local authorities? Can they apply to the OPW under one scheme and to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government under another? I am confused because I have asked parliamentary questions about this issue.
Ms Clare McGrath:
It is a question of assets. The OPW deals with coastal assets damaged by the storms. If an asset provided protection from flooding, it relates to the Office of Public Works. In many counties roads infrastructure was damaged and this issue relates to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Ms McGrath know how the sum of €50 million was distributed? Who can help us with this because it seems the information is spread over four or five Departments? We need to have an overall picture.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If Ms McGrath sends a list of the Departments involved, we will have to follow them separately.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
At least we will know where to ask once we receive a list of the Departments in question.
We have spent most of the meeting talking about flood defences, although they account for only around 25% of the OPW's budget. Most of its budget relates to the estate portfolio management side, for which the figure is €312 million this year and will be €309 million next year, according to the Estimates published in mid-October. On estate management, Ms McGrath has said rents have fallen from €113 million in 2008 to an expected €94 million this year.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It amounts to a financial reduction of 28%, but what was the reduction in floor space in the same period? How does the figure for floor space in 2008 compare to the current figure?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In fact, therefore, a significant proportion of the savings stems come from surrendering space rather than through renegotiations. I know that there has been a bit of both. Can we have a note on the savings achieved? How much has been saved through reducing floor space and through rent reductions?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Given that over the period in question the number of public sector employees has fallen by over 10% from 320,000 to around 280,000, has there been an equivalent reduction in floor space?
Ms Clare McGrath:
Accommodation has been reduced by 1.2 million sq. ft. We now face the issue of optimising existing space as the bulk of our accommodation is owned but in need of considerable investment. When it comes to density of occupation by employees, this accommodation is not good. As I said, all Ministers and Departments are driven to increase density and use space more efficiently. There should be a commensurate reduction in space. We need investment to refurbish our owned estate to allow for increased density, where possible. Departments have been very engaged in this programme. When a lease is surrendered, it is the case that additional floor space is required - people occupy the surrendered leased space and require to be rehoused in owned estate. We have increased density in owned estate. I suggest the amount of floor space released is greater than the number of reductions, but we are seeking to exploit capacity in owned estate. We are employing new working methods, using open plan spaces and increasing densities. Occupiers are working with us in this process, although it presents challenges.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Most of the OPW's property is owned but not all of it. Of the rented portfolio, has the OPW had any success in renegotiating leases that were agreed to during the boom times? Have efforts been made to renegotiate and have landlords presented obstacles?
Ms Clare McGrath:
We have renegotiated leases and I will revert to the committee on the savings we have achieved through this process. When rent reviews occur, even if they are upward-only rent reviews, we seek to leverage the State's covenant across a range of properties because we deal with landlords in the round. For example, accommodation may be up for review in one area, but we may have a lease with the same landlord elsewhere; therefore, we deal with them based on the value of the State's covenant. Renegotiation is challenging and not always successful, but it is a route we take. I will revert to the committee on the rent roll savings attributable to renegotiation.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Has there been any success where there are upward-only rent review clauses or has the OPW been flatly refused?
Ms Clare McGrath:
There has been more of the latter than the former. Success in the area of upward-only rent reviews has been achieved where the OPW concurrently rents a different property from the same landlord and a lease break is approaching in the case of the latter property. In other words, given the demand for office accommodation, we look at the matter in the round. The aim at all times is to see how we can best use the State's covenant to achieve a reduction. I will revert to the committee with specific details.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I refer to Deputy Sean Fleming's point.
If we cannot renegotiate some of them in the times that are in it, it is a little unlikely that we will be able to do so when the commercial property market tightens, as it has been. I accept what Ms McGrath stated about old-style properties, but if there has been a reduction of 12% in numbers, is it too simplistic to think she might be able to tell a few of the landlords who do not want to deal with her to take their properties somewhere else?
3:30 pm
Ms Clare McGrath:
Where one has a legal contract and a requirement for accommodation, one will be challenged on it. That is the advice of the Attorney General. The Office of Public Works, in what might be called the boom times, did not take properties at the rents that were being charged. We stepped back-----
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am aware of a rent figure or two that, if they were not boom-time rates, were close to it. Did the OPW make any contribution to dealing with the homeless problem?
Ms Clare McGrath:
Yes, I referenced the matter earlier. We are engaged with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, through its various committees, and properties in our care have been considered. Some of them will be utilised, via that Department, through local authorities.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it a short-term measure?
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there re-equipping and refitting work taking place?
Ms Clare McGrath:
Yes. There have been many conversations and I note that the OPW has been referenced, but a lot of our properties provide office accommodation and are heritage properties. We do not have a great amount of unallocated properties. That is where I refer to the register. We are putting all of what we have available, via the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, to various committees to consider.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
With the note she is sending in response to Deputy Sean Fleming's questions, Ms McGrath might include a note to give us some idea of the properties being fitted out for this purpose.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will be parochial and return to what is driving efficiency in the State's footprint. This relates to the purchase of a site in Kanturk for a decentralised office and I am conscious that the advice is in respect of individuals. I reference correspondence, dated 21 May, sent by the private secretary to the Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works to the then acting county manager. It states:
There is a substantial six figure sum at stake and the local authority is out of pocket.
The Commissioners of Public Works advise me that discussions with the Council on the purchase of the site were on a "Without Prejudice / Subject to Contract" basis. As the Decentralisation Programme, in the context of which the site was identified, was cancelled on foot of a Government Decision, the Commissioners have further advised me that they have no current interest in the site and no contractual liability to [Cork County] Council.....
I will read correspondence, dated November 2006, from an individual in the property management section of the OPW to the estates section of Cork County Council, which opens as follows:
Further to your recent discussions with [an individual in the OPW], we would be pleased if you could instruct the agent who is acting on your behalf to acquire the site for the Fire Station, to endeavour to acquire the adjacent lands on behalf of the Commissioners for Public Works.Further correspondence, dated 7 December 2007, to the then county manager in Cork states, "The Commissioners are extremely anxious to advance this project in Kanturk". In any of the correspondence, until the letter from the Minister of State's private secretary, there was no reference to the local authority acting "Without Prejudice / Subject to Contract". This has only been invoked when the local authority has looked to be reimbursed for the funds it spent while acting on behalf of the Office of Public Works.
I opened my contribution by asking what were the protocols where the OPW acted in conjunction with others to acquire sites. In a way, what we are witnessing is bullying by the OPW of another State agency and I will tell Ms McGrath why I think that is so. Recently, there was a similar experience in Macroom where the OPW and the local authority were buying a site, by coincidence, for a fire station and where the OPW was acquiring a site for a Garda station. Fortunately, it is now over the line and the contracts have been signed. However, the local authority was being asked to subjugate its interest which, given its previous experience with the OPW, was quite unhappy to do in terms of protecting the funds it was putting into the project on behalf of local ratepayers, etc. It was being asked to act in good faith and trust that the OPW would not abuse its dominant position. It took the intervention of the Minister to ask the local authority to acquiesce. Does Ms McGrath accept that, given its experience, the local authority was so reluctant and that what manifests in Kanturk is an abuse of the OPW's dominant position?
I dealt with some of the officials along the chain when this matter was progressing through the OPW, most of whom were extremely courteous and helpful, but I did hit a road block where a senior official in the OPW had dumped on Cork County Council officials in a manner that I found most unacceptable.
Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No names, please.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am not mentioning any name. The Acting Chairman need not worry; I am around long enough not to do so. I found most unacceptable the behaviour of the OPW and the local authority is out of pocket for a substantial six figure sum. Does Ms McGrath accept that invoking the term, "Without Prejudice / Subject to Contract", at this late stage is not acceptable and is tantamount to an abuse of a dominant position?
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I flagged the issue as one I wanted to raise and it is only fair that it be raised.
Ms Clare McGrath:
It is fair; if there is an issue in the acquisition of property, a contractual issue or what is being described as such, we deal with it. Where the Office of Public Works legally has a contractual obligation, we will deal with it, but that might not be what has been said. We will engage directly with Cork County Council on this issue.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am disappointed with that reply because it seems to be evading the issue. I asked the secretariat to flag it and it was flagged to Ms McGrath as one I wished to raise. If the circumstances are as I have outlined, does Ms McGrath believe the OPW is obliged to repay Cork County Council moneys it spent in acquiring lands on behalf of the OPW for decentralised offices? After the local authority had purchased the lands, the OPW stated it was sorry, that the decentralisationj programme had been dropped and that it was not paying the local authority for the lands acquired.
Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Cork County Council has briefed me on this issue. It finds the approach of the OPW obtrusive and obstructive in protecting its interests in this debacle. I have found the OPW to be most unco-operative.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I wish to put three or four questions to Ms McGrath who can send the replies through the secretariat rather than going through them here because it might take time to do so.
Will Ms McGrath give us a note outlining the percentage breakdown of OPW properties, owned and rented, as compared to 2008? The OPW seems to be letting go of some of its rented properties. The figure must be well over 90%.
For the committee's benefit, will Ms McGrath give us a list of the five largest empty properties the OPW has in its possession? Obviously, it has properties that are being renovated where staff have to move.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Fantastic.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
As the answer is zero, that is good news.
Will Ms McGrath send us a note if the OPW was involved in acquiring the site for the decentralised offices of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in Portlaoise? It was an IDA Ireland site encompassing a couple of acres.
I forget whether it was acquired by the OPW or Laois County Council. Was it acquired by the OPW?
3:40 pm
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will Ms McGrath send us a note on the current plans for the project? From the perspective of the OPW, is there a plan for a reduced scale office or does the OPW have plans to extend what was the original office? As Ms McGrath knows, the OPW has approximately seven leases for seven properties in Portlaoise for the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine alone. In the interests of efficiency, it makes no sense to spread them around. Every business park near the town and every new development has spare offices. The OPW is spending approximately €1.2 million annually on rent for seven properties. Many people say that if it does not intend to go ahead with the original plan, or with a reduced size building on the original site, it should at least consolidate its position. I will not ask Ms McGrath to go through the details here, but will she send us a note on it?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Ms McGrath says the OPW has charge of 760 national monuments and 30 national historic properties. What is the role of the OPW in the 1916 commemorations? Will Ms McGrath send us a note on that matter? Some of the events will be held on OPW properties and it must be involved in the commemorations.
Ms Clare McGrath:
When I spoke about vacant properties, I was talking about vacant or unallocated offices.
We have two roles in the 1916 commemorations. First, as many of the sites may be within our care, we will be involved in event management around these sites, just as we would have been during the EU Presidency or the visit of the Queen. Second, in the case of one of the properties, Kilmainham Gaol, we are undertaking substantial works. We have acquired from the Courts Service the adjoining Kilmainham courthouse, on which we are carrying out work in order to open up access to it. As the Deputy knows, there is a particular difficulty in seeking access to Kilmainham Gaol because there is only one entry point. The new work will involve use of the adjoining courthouse to open up access, to be ready for the 1916 commemorations in 2016, and provide for enhanced access for visitors.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The OPW will probably need a budget for that work.
Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will have to conclude as a vote has been called in the Dáil.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am happy to conclude, but will Ms McGrath send on the information to the committee?
Tom Barry (Cork East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have a few questions to ask, but I will ask the committee clerk to forward them to Ms McGrath for reply. Will she, please, submit responses to my questions and those which have been asked to the committee secretariat? On behalf of the joint committee, I thank all of delegates from the Office of Public Works for participating in this worthwhile meeting and the material they have supplied.