Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the members for their patience. I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy James Reilly, Ms Elizabeth Canavan, Secretary General at the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, and also in the Visitors Gallery, Mr. Paul Fay and Mr. Dermot Ryan. If they wish to join us, they are more than welcome to come down. This meeting has been convened for the purpose of considering the Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. I remind committee members that this is a Supplementary Estimate, so we are not dealing with the whole Estimate.

I remind committee members that this is a Supplementary Estimate, so we are not dealing with the whole Estimate. It is a specific Vote, Vote 40, which is the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or persons outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. We have apologies from Deputy Ciara Conway.

I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy James Reilly, and his officials to the meeting. The Dáil has ordered that the Supplementary Estimate under Vote 40 be referred to this committee. We are only considering the Supplementary Estimate, and while members may discuss issues regarding individual subheads, they may not recommend an increase or decrease in the Supplementary Estimate.

I call upon the Minister to make his opening remarks and am conscious that we have a vote in the Dáil.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to appear before the select sub-committee to outline particulars relating to the Supplementary Estimate for 2014 under Vote 40, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. The committee will be aware that the Supplementary Estimate is for the sum of €1,000. It is purely of a technical nature, to allow for the creation of a new subhead in my Department's Vote for the commission of investigation into matters relating to mother and baby homes. Costs associated with the commission constitute a new service, and the Supplementary Estimate will allow for expenditure to be incurred on the Vote from the beginning of January 2015.

I would like to take this opportunity to update the House and the committee on the current position regarding the commission of investigation. The Government has undertaken to establish a statutory commission of investigation into matters relating to mother and baby homes in accordance with the motion passed by Dáil Éireann on 11 June 2014. Considerable progress has been achieved since this date, including the publication of the interdepartmental group's report on the announcement that Judge Yvonne Murphy will chair the commission and an inclusive consultation process with stakeholders.

The establishment of this statutory investigation is an urgent and major undertaking. The scale and sensitivity of the specific concerns relating to mother and baby homes, as evidenced in the interdepartmental report and submissions received, has necessitated a detailed examination of these complex matters. Although the requirement to provide the commission with appropriate terms of reference may be generally accepted, the task of achieving the necessary precision in this regard should not be underestimated. It is important that this inquiry be established in a manner that allows it to fulfil its remit in a timely fashion. The committee will be aware that previous inquiries and commissions generated a great deal of expense and took much longer than anticipated to arrive at a conclusion than either those concerned or the Oireachtas would have wished. In this regard, I am especially sensitive to the age profile of many of those involved with this process. We need to learn from past experiences and ensure that we get this process right from the start.

I would like to take a moment to reflect on the current position on establishing the inquiry. The interdepartmental group on mother and baby homes met again recently to consider a number of specific issues which have emerged in recent engagements with advocacy groups and the political parties. Indeed, I would like to thank some of the members who are present here - Deputies Sandra McLellan and Robert Troy, among others - for their engagement. Following this meeting, I am confident that we are now approaching the conclusion of the current deliberative process. While I am not in a position today to advise the committee on specific details, I can say that, following discussions with colleagues across the Government, we are now close to finalising the terms of reference. As I advised the joint committee previously, some of the issues being raised with me directly and in public debate may extend beyond the central focus of mother and baby homes contained in the motion which was debated in the Dáil. I wish to make it clear that I intend to be as inclusive as possible, and the challenge is to determine a methodology for doing so in a timely and cost-effective way. I am confident that we can establish an effective inquiry which has the support of those most centrally involved. My priority remains the establishment of a commission that can deliver on public expectations in a realistic manner by providing a full account of what happened in these homes.

With regard to the timeline for completion of this work, assuming the current good progress continues, it is my intention to circulate a draft memorandum for the Government before Christmas. This timescale is dependent on the finalisation of a number of key factors, including the conclusion of discussions with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on funding and final review by the Attorney General. In parallel with this work, my Department is continuing to work very closely with Judge Murphy to advance the operational arrangements so that we can have an effective commission established and operational as quickly as possible following consideration of the Government's proposals by the Oireachtas.

Under the provisions of section 5(2) of the Commission of Investigations Act 2004, a Minister seeking approval to establish a commission of investigation is required to prepare an estimate of the cost to be incurred by the commission. This estimate is being prepared for consideration by Government in tandem with decisions necessary to finalise the terms of reference and formally establish the commission. I have signalled to Government and the Oireachtas the requirement for significant additional resources to support this investigation. Direct financial and staffing resources will be required within the commission. My Department will also require additional staffing resources to meet the demands attaching to support and oversight of the commission. In addition, the ongoing process of examining arrangements for access to adoption information will identify the cost implications of proposed operational reforms in this area. Given the potential scale of this investigation, a number of other key Departments with relevant legislative and operational responsibilities have indicated that the increased administrative demands associated with co-operation with this commission may also require a dedicated resource in their respective Departments. Any such requirements will be advanced separately by the relevant Ministers.

As I mentioned at the outset, the establishment of the commission will constitute a new service in my Department's Vote. A new subhead will therefore be required to meet associated costs. Establishing the subhead now with a notional sum of €1,000 will facilitate the early commencement of investigations in 2015, something I know we are all very keen to see achieved. In conclusion, I seek the select sub-committee's approval of the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 40.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials. I fully appreciate that we are talking in particular about the Supplementary Estimate regarding the establishment of the commission of investigation into the institutions that were commonly known as mother and baby homes. However, if the Chairman will allow me - I think he did say that, while we may not call for an increase in anything, we may make reference to the actual Estimates for the Department - I would like to use this opportunity to ask about Estimates. We saw the new Child and Family Agency go over budget this year, so we are going into next year with a deficit-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has misinterpreted what I said. I am not going to have a row with him, because I am not going to allow us to go into this. What I said was that members may discuss issues relevant to individual subheads. That is not relevant to subhead 40, to be fair. I am not going to have a row because-----

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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We will be coming back early in the next session to discuss the Department's Vote, so all those questions will be appropriate for that.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We will have a separate meeting, and we have agreed that the committee will have a quarterly meeting with Tusla as well.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, and that is very important, but at a time when we are talking about child welfare and child protection, the CEO of Tusla himself looked for additional expenditure and warned that the very basic level of social and child protection services would be reduced if we did not get additional funding. I appreciate the Minister's frankness in terms of-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is not being relevant. I am trying to be fair. I am asking him to just take a deep breath. He is not being fair in discussing the subhead. I am not depriving him of any opportunity to raise issues regarding the matters he is discussing. This is a Supplementary Estimate on Vote 40. I can argue back and forth now, and if the Deputy wants to, that is fine. To be fair to the members who are here and to the officials and the Minister, we are specifically dealing with the particular matter of subhead 40, the creation of a new subhead in the Estimates process. If Deputy Troy wants to engage in that and have a row with me then that is his prerogative, but I would prefer if he did not do that.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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As the Chairman knows, that is not the way I have conducted myself since I came onto this committee. I do not engage in theatrical-style stunts.

The subhead is welcome because it enables the commencement of the commission of investigation into institutions commonly known as mother and baby homes. I have spoken to survivors who spent time in these institutions and know that they do not like these facilities being termed "mother and baby homes" because there was nothing homely about their ambience and their experience of living in them - they were very far from being homely. Collectively, as political representatives, we should take on board the fact that the survivors do not find the term "mother and baby homes" appropriate owing to what went on in them. It is important that the investigation is moving forward.

I will respond to some of the points made by the Minister. He talked about an inclusive consultation process with the stakeholders, a matter I raised with him when we met a number of weeks ago. I have met a number of other groups, the members of which believe the consultation process has not been very inclusive. The Minister has met them only once and they believe, although he has met them, he has not listened to them. As we are facilitating the discussion of the Supplementary Estimate today, I ask the Minister to, please-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I advise the Deputy that there is a vote in the Dáil.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I will conclude in four minutes and the Chairman will not have to listen to me when we return after the vote.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I have no problem listening to the Deputy who is being disingenuous in making that comment.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I did not mean to be.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I know.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is important that the inquiry be inclusive. It is also important that the stakeholders - the women who lived in thee institutions and the survivors - have their voices heard. It is important that the inquiry be issue based. We are not talking only about a set number of institutions commonly known as mother and baby homes. The malnutrition, abuse, neglect, forced adoptions, illegal adoptions and high mortality rates also happened in many other institutions in which the State and religious entities were involved. Therefore, we need to get the inquiry right. The Minister came here to seek our support for this subhead and the Supplementary Estimates and he has it. However, I ask him to, please, ensure he sets out terms of reference for an inclusive inquiry which will ensure he will have cross-party support. He has mentioned that he hopes the draft terms of references will be published prior to Christmas. Will there be an opportunity, either on the floor of the Dáil or at committee level, to discuss them? Will there be an opportunity for all political parties to feed into them? Will there be an opportunity for interested groups - the stakeholders - to feed into them before the final terms of reference are published?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I should have said at the beginning of the meeting that apologies had been received from Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin. I propose to suspend the sitting until after the vote has taken place in the Dáil. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We will resume in public session. I apologise to both staff and officials for the delay and thank them for their patience.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials and thank them for their presentations. I wish to apologise on behalf of my party colleague, Deputy Ó Caoláin, who is just about to take part in Leaders' Questions in the Dáil Chamber. The Minister stated that he intends that a draft will be circulated to the Cabinet before Christmas. Is there any possibility that it will also be circulated to the Opposition and does that mean that the terms of reference will not be published until after Christmas?

I welcome the fact that the Minister has said that he intends to be as inclusive as possible and urge him to ensure that nobody is left out. I also welcome his comments regarding learning from previous experience. It is so important that we get this right and that the process is very inclusive.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for being here and welcome the establishment of the commission. As others have said, I hope people will be treated in a fair manner. We all recognise that awful things were done in the past but it is never too late to rectify matters.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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In response to Deputy Byrne's point, it is critically important that we learn from mistakes of the past. The only way we will do that is by having a good, long, hard look at what happened to so many people in the past which was so hurtful. In response to Deputy Troy's points, this is a Supplementary Estimate and has nothing to do with budget 2015. He argued that many people do not like the term "mother and baby home" but I have met a range of groups, none of which made that point to me. I might also point out that Deputy Troy said that we are not listening but I met with all of the groups involved and made a point of doing so. Almost all of them also met my predecessor. I believe that we have listened. It might be pre-judging the terms of reference to argue that people still have issues or feel that we have not heard what they have to say. All submissions have been read but the Government has not made a final decision on the terms of reference yet.

This is time-sensitive and we want to get this done in a timely fashion. We certainly cannot afford to be repeating the investigations carried out by the child abuse commission. On the question of timing, a draft order will be discussed in the Oireachtas after it has been approved by Government. Other matters will be dealt with on foot of the decision of Cabinet, which I cannot pre-empt. I thank everyone for their forbearance and co-operation. We are all keen to deal with these matters as quickly as possible and to ensure that the commission can do its work in an unfettered fashion so that it can answer the questions people have asked. We are very conscious of the age profile of many of those concerned.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister and commend him for the work he is doing in establishing the commission. I assure him that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children will provide any assistance it can.

This committee has completed its consideration of the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 40 and a message will be sent by the clerk of the committee to the Clerk of the Dáil to that effect. I thank the Minister and his officials. As this will be our last engagement before the recess, I wish the Minister and all in the Department a prosperous and peaceful Christmas and a good new year.