Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 9 December 2014
Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform
Estimates for Public Services 2014
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Supplementary)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Supplementary)
6:00 pm
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The Dáil by order of 3 December 2014 referred these Supplementary Estimates to the Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform pursuant to Standing Orders 82A(3)(c), (6)(a) and 159(3), which was asked to report back to the Dáil by no later than 11 December. I welcome the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, and his officials.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am here this evening to present to the committee a net Supplementary Estimate of €22.25 million, gross €33 million, in respect of Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances, and €200,000 in respect of the Public Appointments Service. The Supplementary Estimate in respect of the superannuation Vote arises from the fact that there have been approximately 250 more retirements than we had forecast at the beginning of the year, which is around 280 more than the 2013 full-year outturn. The additional €230,000 for the Public Appointments Service, PAS, arises from increased activity as a result of additional recruitment that has now begun.
In net terms, the full cost of these Supplementary Estimates is covered by savings elsewhere in the public expenditure and reform Votes, so no additional money is required.
The superannuation and retired allowances Vote provides primarily for pension and lump sum payments for civil servants and pension payments for dependants. Vote 12, as the Chairman will appreciate, is a demand-led Vote. This makes it difficult to estimate expenditure from one year to the next, having regard to a variety of changeable circumstances. I will give some examples of things we can only estimate and the variables that cannot be exactly forecast at the beginning of a year. These include the number of established civil servants who will opt for voluntary retirement having attained the minimum pension age but before reaching the compulsory retirement age; the number of persons who will opt to take cost-neutral early retirement; the number of persons who will retire on grounds of ill-health; the number of former employees who will become eligible to claim a preserved pension entitlement; the average pension benefits - lump sum and pension - that will fall to be payable to new retirees in any given year, depending on the grades and years of service of that specific cohort of retirees; and the number of cessations of pensions in any given year.
The 2014 gross Estimate for Vote 12 was €444.8 million. This represented an increase of €17.096 million, or 4%, over the 2013 outturn of €427.7 million. The Estimate anticipated a level of 850 retirements against the 820 actual retirements that took place in 2013. As noted, however, the interaction of a range of variables that I have set out will determine the expenditure on the Vote. This means that each year is unique in terms of expenditure and there is no direct correlation from one year to the next. By way of illustration, a significant saving arose on the Vote in 2013, when we overestimated what we would need by €46 million.
While the 2014 Estimate anticipated 850 retirements, around 1,100 people have retired to date, an increase of some 30% over what we anticipated. The impact of higher than estimated retirement levels may or may not have a marked impact on subheads concerned with pensions in payment, in that expenditure on each subhead is a function of both the level of new pensions coming into payment each year and the level of cessations of existing pensions in payment during the same year. Clearly, we cannot anticipate the numbers who will pass to their eternal reward.
This is not the case with lump sum payments. Increases in retirement levels have a particular effect on subhead A4 and to a lesser extent on subhead A5 in the context of increasing the number of associated one-off lump payments that must be made. Subhead A4, which provides for lump sum payments to established civil servants, is therefore the key driver of expenditure in any given year. By late November, more than €75 million had been expended from subhead A4, for which the 2014 Estimate was €58.18 million - an excess to date of some €17 million. Further expenditure of €10 million by year end is estimated, resulting in an overall excess of about €27 million on the subhead. By late November, €21.4 million had been expended from subhead A5, which covers the payment of lump sums, pensions in payment and the pensions of spouses of unestablished civil servants. In the 2014 Estimate, we had an allocation of €20 million. Further expenditure of €1.5 million is anticipated, giving an overall excess of €3 million.
It is now estimated that gross expenditure for 2014 may be in the region of €476 million - as I have said, some €31 million more than the gross Estimate of €444.800 million as voted by the Oireachtas on 18 December last year.
In the context, however, that a number of Departments pay pension lump sums directly to the individuals and then recoup the money from my Department via Vote 12, it is considered prudent to provide for a sum in excess of €31 million to cater for the possibility that Departments have underestimated the level of lump sum payments payable before December.
In order to ensure that the required funding is voted before excess costs associated with the additional retirements accrue to Vote 12, a Supplementary Estimate of €33 million gross is now being sought.
The committee should also note that the level of the gross Supplementary Estimate being sought will be mitigated by anticipated increased levels of appropriations-in-aid.
Appropriations-in-aid for 2014 were estimated at €82.25 million. Any additional receipts over the 2014 estimate - that is, if we get more than the €82.25 million in appropriations-in-aid - will have the effect of reducing the gross Supplementary Estimate further. To date, there have been receipts of some €95.4 million. Clearly, the appropriations-in-aid are larger than we have anticipated, so the gross amount will be mitigated to the degree I have said.
As expenditure on this Vote is influenced by the number of persons who exercise the option to retire before reaching compulsory retirement age, it is not possible to estimate the numbers who might choose to exercise that option over, say, a four-month period between September and December 2014 and the associated level of pension benefits that would be payable. It is therefore only now, towards the end of the year, that an accurate assessment may be made and an appropriate level of additional funding sought.
It must also be recognised that while some additional funding is being requested for the Vote in 2014, the fact that more people than had been anticipated have opted to retire this year has an impact on the drive to reduce numbers in the Civil Service, which is part of the overall strategy too.
We are also seeking a Supplementary Estimate of €230,000 under Vote 17, the Public Appointments Service. This is a small enough additional amount in respect of this year. Following the easing of the moratorium, as I explained to the House during the previous two Question Time debates, a number of traditional large-volume recruitment campaigns have, thankfully, been launched this year and will continue next year. The absence of opportunities in recent years to recruit new applicants has ensured that this year, when we reopened the recruiting campaigns, there was a very high number of applicants. By way of indication, the Public Appointments Service anticipates that in excess of 90,000 applications were received by it this year. The Supplementary Estimate is made up of non-pay costs covering the testing and general assessment costs associated with that increased level of activity.
I am happy to answer questions from the committee on those two Votes.
6:10 pm
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have a few questions to ask about the figures. First, on the details of that big figure - the Minister might tell me if the figures I am putting to him are correct - the Minister said in his opening statement that 820 people had retired in 2013. I am looking at the Estimates figure and the outturn for 2013 was €48 million in that area under Vote A5. Would that be correct? I want to make sure I am correct in my questions.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is the Deputy talking about the gross figure or the figure from subhead A5 only?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am talking about the figure from subhead A4, which is the big figure.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That refers to established civil servants. Subhead A5 refers to unestablished civil servants.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy mentioned subhead A5.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That was my mistake. The big figure is A4.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have the document the Minister presented to us here last January dealing with the Estimate for the current year. The Minister said then the outturn for 2013 was €48 million, plus or minus. He is saying today under this heading that 250 more people are retiring. The figure is up at 1,100. He had budgeted for 850 in his Estimate for this year, which is a little more than last year's outturn-----
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----but he is now 250 ahead of that. On the information before us, the total spend under subhead A4 will be €87 million.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is the lump sum element.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Subhead A4?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Yes. That refers to lump sums and debt gratuities.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, in respect of established-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Established civil servants, yes.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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On those two figures, I want the Minister to explain the situation. We have established that by December 2013, 820 people had left. The payment under subhead A4 was €48 million. That is an average payment of €56,536.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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For 2014, the Minister is saying 1,100 will have gone, and the figure on the bottom line at the end of subhead A4 is now €87 million. That is an average of €79,000. That is a phenomenal increase from-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have explained it. It is entirely a matter of who is retiring.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will come-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If a cohort of more senior civil servants retire, the lump sum that will be payable will be much more than if the same number of much lower-paid middle-ranking or lower-ranking civil servants retire.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I understand the general point, but this is the public expenditure sub-committee, whose job it is to delve in below the headline figures. That is our job here today. We would not be doing our job otherwise. We have gone from an average payment under this heading of €56,000 last year to €79,000 this year. Before we vote on it in the Dáil, the Minister will have to give us the breakdown of the types of rate that led to this massive change. However, I am not finished yet. The reason the Minister has come to the sub-committee seeking this extra €27 million, out of €33 million gross - €27 million of the Supplementary Estimate is under this heading-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is correct.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister said that was because an additional 250 people had retired this year over the target of 850. Those 250 people-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No. The Deputy has to look at the entirety of it.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let me finish my question.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It was not the same 830 that retired last year with the same-----
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I know.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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All of them-----
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The mix is different. I understand.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Completely different.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister will have to give us the details of the mix.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is not a problem.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let me finish the point. The Minister is coming in here today saying that 250 more than the 850 people he expected to retire when he presented the Estimate at the beginning of the year have now retired or are on the way out - 1,100 in total - and that is costing an extra €27 million in the Supplementary Estimate before us today. It is the biggest element of it. That means the average cost of those 250 people-----
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let me finish my question.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The premise is completely wrong.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let me finish my question. I do not accept that. I will accept figures backing up the-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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But the premise is completely wrong. The Deputy knows that. He is an accountant.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am. Exactly.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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He cannot say that the base is identical to last year, as if the same identical people with the same service retired last year. He cannot look at that additionality and average it out. That is complete nonsense and makes no sense at all in accounting terms.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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For the fourth time, I will try to finish my question. I understand the Minister's point-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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But the Deputy is going to pursue it anyway, although he does understand it.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I will ask the question for the fourth time. For the extra 250 people the Minister has told us are retiring, he has come in with an Estimate of €27 million.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Let me finish. The Minister stated that the reason, by and large, for the extra €28 million was that 250 more people are retiring than his original budget expectation of 850, which he gave us last January. The figure is now 1,100. That is the principal reason he gave two minutes ago for needing an extra €27 million. If I divide that €27 million - and we will talk about the premise in a minute-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is a daft premise.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Hang on. I am coming to that, but I am setting out the figures first. The extra €27 million that the Minister told us is primarily for the 250 extra people retiring-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I did not say that.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is the principal reason the Minister has given in the document.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If the Minister tells me his document was not detailed enough I will accept that, but it was the principal reason given.
According to the Minister, the Supplementary Estimate in respect of the superannuation Vote arises from the fact that there have been approximately 250 more retirements to date in 2014 than were forecast for the full year. The figure is also 280 higher than the 2013 figure. This is the principal reason given by the Minister in his opening statement for the Supplementary Estimate of €27 million he is seeking. Based on his figure of 250 more retirements than anticipated, the average cost per additional retirement is €108,000 per person. Last year, the average cost of retirement per person was €56,536. According to the Estimate provided at the beginning of 2014, the Minister had budgeted for 850 retirements at a cost of €58 million. According to the Supplementary Estimate, there will be 1,100 retirements costing €87 million this year, which gives an average cost per retirement of €79,000. The Minister is saying the additional 250 retirements require a Supplementary Estimate of €27 million.
6:20 pm
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I did not say that.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The figure provided gives an average cost per retirement of €108,000.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Balderdash.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As everyone knows, the mix of people leaving the public service each year differs in terms of age, years of experience and salary grades. Before the Supplementary Estimate is sent back to the Dáil, I ask the Minister to provide details of this mix, specifically in terms of the grades and years of service of the 820 people who retired from the public service last year at a cost of €48 million and the 1,100 public servants who retired this year at a cost of €87 million, which gives an average of €79,000. By definition, the age and grade mix will be different. The issue, however, is that it is a whopping difference in this case. Before the Dáil votes on the matter, I want the Minister to provide details on the retirement mix last year vis-à-visthe retirement mix this year. If the Minister has the relevant documentation with him, Deputies will take time to read it. However, we want this information before the Vote is submitted to the Dáil. Does the Minister have information on the mix and the reason for the variation in costs?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy has taken us around the houses on a relatively straightforward issue. The figure in question varies significantly from one year to the next, and average figures are provided in the documentation. The expenditure trend for subhead A4 shows a low of €39 million in 2005 and a high of €140 million in another year. The figure is not the same in any two given years, as it depends on the mix of retirements. One cannot take segments of the overall figure and arrive at an average, as the Deputy has done in providing an average figure for the first 850 retirements and a higher average figure for the subsequent top-up figure. If one wishes to arrive at an average for a given year, one must take the average of the total figure. The average will depend entirely on skills mix, experience and so forth. I will be pleased to provide the Deputy with the relevant material before the Supplementary Estimate is sent back to the Dáil.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I ask that the Minister provide the information to the select sub-committee.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will do so.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is the additional €27 million provided for under this subhead not specifically related to the 250 additional retirements? The logic of the Minister's argument is that he should have pointed out in his opening statement that the Supplementary Estimate is required because 250 more retirements occurred than were provided for and the different mix of ages, grades and experience among this cohort of 850 was not factored in to the figure provided at the beginning of the year.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Anybody with half a wit would understand that.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is not what the Minister said.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I did not say today-----
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is not fair to use the phrase "half a wit". Is the Minister referring to members of the public? The public will take his opening statement at face value.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Why is the Deputy being contentious on this issue?
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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It is possible that the 850 retirements envisaged at the start of the year cost €10 million or €15 million more than anticipated.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Absolutely.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Exactly, and if that is the case, why is the figure not broken down? Rather than providing detail, the Minister threw in a figure of 250 additional retirements and stated that the Department was seeking an additional €27 million. My point is that there is more to this issue and the Minister should have provided details.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The bottom line is that the figures refer to the legal entitlement in lump sum payments to all those who retired and were legally entitled to do so during the current year. Unless one has the Oracle of Delphi, one cannot know in advance who will retire or become ill and take early retirement in the course of a year. The mix is different every year. I do not know the reason the Deputy is being deliberately contentious. I have read some of his recent statements and perhaps the porridge he is eating has caused him to be particularly contentious about various issues. This issue is straightforward. While individual files are subject to confidentiality, I will provide a breakdown of the grades of those who have retired in the past year. There is nothing untoward or odd about the issue and I do not understand the reason the Deputy is being deliberately contentious about it.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If the Minister's definition of asking for details of a Supplementary Estimate, which happens-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy is trying to make out an average that does not exist.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Members of the public can make up their own minds on that.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The Deputy should move on to another question. He is being contentious and pedantic.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will judge the Minister's response on the basis of the information I receive. I would have studied it if it had been provided sooner.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy could have dropped me a note yesterday.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will not drop notes to the Minister. I am asking him to provide the information.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have answered the Deputy's question. I will circulate the information he requests to every member of the select sub-committee.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Does Deputy Fleming wish to ask another question?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will allow Deputy McDonald to contribute first.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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On the same issue, we know that the average public sector worker has a pension of €30,000 or less. We also know that a specific group of people in the system are over-pensioned and receive excessive gratuities when they leave the public service. As the Minister acknowledged, we last discussed this matter in 2012, when 84 pensions in excess of €100,000 were being paid. Since raising this matter with the Minister, I and others have engaged in some toing and froing with him on the issue, during which he has cited property rights and constitutional considerations. Like Deputy Sean Fleming, I expect the Minister to produce figures when he comes before the select sub-committee seeking additional money. Not only should he have broken down the subhead by providing information on lump sums, he should also have provided detail on the 1,100 persons who retired, including information on grades, the lump sums to which they were entitled and the level of their pension payments. One would expect this to be a matter of course when the Minister comes before us seeking additional moneys. Do any of the officials have the relevant information and, if so, will they provide it to members now? Such information should be provided when the issue is under discussion.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We have had discussions in respect of pensions and pension entitlements. The Deputy will be aware that one of my first actions on becoming Minister was to impose a new ceiling on wage levels in the Civil Service and public service generally. For example, we set a new ceiling of €200,000 for the Taoiseach. This figure was further significantly reduced under the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2010, and the salaries of all senior civil servants have been reduced to below that level. The reduction for some senior officials was 35%, which will obviously have an impact on their pensions.
On the people who have retired, the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2010, which commenced in January 2011, imposed significant reductions in public service pensions that were in payment at the time through the public service pension reduction, PSPR.
Bands were used in a progressive fashion and I subsequently amended the legislation because I did not think enough was being taken from those paid the largest pensions, given the emergency. There was legal advice saying that pension entitlements are preserved property rights so I had to be careful. Some retired people threatened legal action and I was concerned about putting the entire FEMPI legislation at risk but I was advised that people in receipt of pensions over €100,000 could be made subject to a 20% reduction on the portion above that figure.
Not many pensions fall into this category and my replies to constant questions on this matter over the past two years may be read on the record of the Oireachtas - I gave details of every individual pensioner.
6:30 pm
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister does not have the information with him.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have a copy of the different pensions that were in payment as they arose in replies to parliamentary questions.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is arguing for additional moneys on the basis that more people are retiring than was anticipated and that is fair enough and logical. Deputy Fleming raised the issue of averaging the payments and how that might work out. I would have thought that if the Minister is to come before the committee seeking additional moneys he would, as a matter of course, be able to give us a profile of the 1,100 people we are discussing. Who are they, what levels were they at and how do they fit? I do not propose that the Minister go through each individual pensioner.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It has never been done.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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For instance, can the Minister tell the committee how many, if any, of these 1,100 people receive a pension in excess of €100,000?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That has never been done in any Supplementary Estimate brought under this subhead. We have never given details of individuals. As I said, there are 1,100 individuals in question and each served at different levels of the Civil Service for up to 40 years or more. I am happy to band them and give details on the groups the Deputy seeks. I said I will provide that information before the Vote goes before the Dáil.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We would need that information. On 28 November 2012, the last time we dealt with this Supplementary Estimate, we had a discussion on the number of people in receipt of pensions in different bands. On that occasion the then Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brian Hayes, supplied answers on the basis of parliamentary questions that had been raised. He did not give exhaustive answers but he had more information than the Minister has today. We certainly need that information and I think the Minister should have it with him as a matter of course when he comes looking for additional money.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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What exact information does the Deputy seek?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I want to know about the 1,100 new pensioners.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am happy to give a breakdown of their grades, pensions and so on. Is that what the Deputy seeks?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. I want to know the gratuity they are paid and the pension band.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The lump-sum gratuity and the pension. I should add, these people have a legitimate entitlement to these pensions and those now retiring have been subjected to pay reductions under the FEMPI legislation to date.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We all accept that clear amounts have been calculated but people will ask us for a breakdown of the figures so we need more information. I sought figures and information under the A4 subhead and I stress I do not want to see names. I do not think anyone could suggest that we would ever seek names but I want to see the lump sums of over €100,000. If there were any such lump sums, how many were there? I want the list of the ten highest lump sums to go in descending order and I also want a list of the ten lowest. We need to get a feel for what the highest and lowest amounts were, though I am sure there are far more people at the lower end. People would like to know how many people received over €100,000 and what the ten highest figures were so these are the specific details we request.
My next question relates to pensions, superannuation allowances, the Haddington Road agreement and so on. In 2013 the Haddington Road agreement placed a reduction on pensions of over €32,500 and the level of this reduction was half of what applied to those on pensions of over €65,000. This question relates to the overall superannuation Vote. How many retired public servants were affected by the pension reduction and what savings were made? In other words, how many people were affected by the cap of €32,500 and what savings did the cap achieve in 2014? Again, I do not seek names but I want a list of the ten people most affected by this measure. This might help us empathise with those who suffered most. We have discussed these matters under the A4 subhead and the main A1 subhead, though only a small Supplementary Estimate in the region of €316,000 applies to the latter.
My questions so far address pensions and the impact of the Haddington Road agreement. Perhaps I am the sort of halfwit or dimwit that was mentioned earlier but I wish to clarify that the A5 subhead mostly deals with unestablished officers and the A4 subhead relates to established officers. Can the Minister explain the difference for the halfwits out there? The figures today show €27 million for established civil servants under the A4 subhead and a requirement for an extra €3 million for unestablished officers. Can the Minister explain this for the public, if not for my benefit?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There are a number of questions to be addressed. There are two types of deductions and I referred to one in my answer to Deputy McDonald on FEMPI legislation and pension payments. The reduction Deputy Fleming refers to, relating to pensions of over €32,500, was introduced in the most recent FEMPI legislation and sought to mirror the reduction relating to €65,000 and people still working. I have answered questions on this and can get the details, though it is not relevant to this Vote. If it is a matter of interest I will send the information to the Deputy.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Send it on.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Regarding the Deputy's other question, established civil servants, or normal civil servants, are those appointed under the Civil Service Regulation Act. Unestablished civil servants can be appointed to statutory positions and unestablished positions, such as messenger, usher and so on. There is a range of unestablished civil servant positions. If I recall correctly, officials of this House were once called neither civil servants nor unestablished civil servants but something completely different. Perhaps the clerk of the committee can advise on this.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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They were permanent.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No, they went by a different title.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I am informed they were public servants of the State.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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They were public servants of the State, rather than civil servants.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It would be helpful if the Minister could include a list of the various categories deemed unestablished by way of information.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The list might not be exhaustive as there could be grades in the State laboratory and the like of which we are not aware.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It would be helpful.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for their assistance in considering the Supplementary Estimate.
6:40 pm
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Are we not moving onto the Public Appointments Service, PAS?
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I thought no interest was being expressed in that.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Before we conclude, I have a final comment. That is all. I have no questions on the Public Appointments Service. I am delighted to see what these indicate.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is a figure of €230,000 here, and the Minister is saying PAS anticipates it will process circa 90,000 applications. Will the Minister talk us through that? The figure strikes me as remarkably high.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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PAS has indicated to me that this is the volume of applications for the panels they have opened, the biggest being the clerical officer panel. If the Deputy would like a breakdown of each of the panels, I will happily provide it. I understand the clerical officer panel attracted 28,000 applicants. The Garda recruitment process attracted 24,000 applications. There are also other panels.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister know what are those other panels?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No, but I can get the information to the Deputy. A representative of the Public Appointments Service is with us. I will circulate that information for each panel. We have also given a new role to PAS on the appointment of State boards. It will be busy doing that work also.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How many clerical positions are there?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The panel has been opened.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I apologise. I thought the Deputy was asking how many people worked in PAS. The Deputy is asking how many clerical positions we are going to fill. It depends. I indicated in a parliamentary reply that because of the speed with which we established PeoplePoint in my Department, for example, there is a number of people appointed there on contract. I want to regularise this. Therefore, I will be using the panel to backfill positions there. As we expand, I will again use the panel. Other Departments will also be recruiting. The exact number to be recruited is not clear yet. However, there will be a large panel established from which it will be possible to draw. As I have indicated, one thing I want to do next year is devolve authority to Departments and agencies to operate within their own pay ceiling but to be flexible in terms of the skills mix they determine is required. They might determine to hire additional clerical officers rather than a more senior grade. As long as they stay within agreed pay norms, that will be acceptable.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How many Garda recruits are envisaged?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The first 100 started last month, and the second 100 will start in January. A third 100 will start a couple of months thereafter.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is 300.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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There was 24,000 applications.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is astonishing, is it not?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is astonishing, but, in a way, there has always been a number of people -----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Pent up demand.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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----- who have been interested in the Garda. Even the number of reserve gardaí is now for the first time at its full capacity, which is interesting. It has reached the norms set for it. There is a big interest in serving in An Garda Síochána.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We will remember that figure when we discuss gardaí on the beat and the needs of communities. I have a final question. What is the €230,000 for? Is it for psychometric testing?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Who does that?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Public Appointments Service itself.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is it outsourced?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am informed by the Public Appointments Service that some of it is outsourced.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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To whom? Is it tendered?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We will send the Deputy the details.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Are we finished?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No. We may be finished with the questions. I am not finished. I will be upfront about this. The Chairman was probably just about to read the statement that we have now concluded our consideration of the Estimates. Until I receive the information, I am not happy to conclude this process. I will have no problem if I get the information this Thursday or Friday, or even next Monday or Tuesday, with coming back for a minute to conclude the business. However, in respect of a large bulk of the questions I asked, the information is said to be on its way. When I receive it, I will be happy to say we have completed our consideration. I am not happy to sign off on this in advance of receiving the information because so much of what I have asked has yet to come to me. I would not need the Minister to come back. However, if there is a routine meeting next week, the Committee can - just for five minutes before the routine meeting - sign off on this then, without having to trouble the Minister.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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For the Deputy's information, I will read out a procedural note to him:
No decisions are taken by the committee in relation to the consideration of Estimates. The committee is only empowered to "consider" the Estimates and cannot alter, amend or vote on them. The committee must send a message to the Dáil when it has completed its consideration of the Estimates and it cannot decide not to do this. Under Standing Order 87 the message must be to the effect that the Select Committee has completed its consideration of an Estimate referred to it by the Dáil. There is no provision for the expression of an opinion by the committee on the Estimates in its message. As the Standing Order prescribes the nature of the message to be sent, the content is not a matter for decision by the committee.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I accept everything that was said in that briefing note. That is precisely why I phrased what I said the way I said it. I do not want to amend the Estimates or change the Estimates. I do not want to not agree the Estimates; we will vote on that in the Chamber. However, all I am saying is that we are not ready yet to send the message to the clerk of the Dáil stating that we have completed our consideration. I want the sending of the message held over until we receive the information. I will be quite happy to come in here another time, for two minutes, and agree to send a message to the Dáil that we have completed our consideration. Hopefully, we can do it without having to ask the Minister back in.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As I said at the beginning, I think the Deputy is in a particular frame of mind today. There is one request he has made of me, namely, to give him a structural breakdown of those people who have an entitlement to a pension. He does not disagree that they are all valid nor that they all should be paid. All he wishes to know is the categories of pensioner, that is how many at each grade retired during the course of 2014. That is one simple question he has asked. There is no phalanx of information that he requires. We will provide the information sought. I would be anxious that we would proceed with the Estimates so that we can ensure that everyone is paid. People are entitled to be paid before Christmas.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I do not buy into that nonsense. That is a red herring. This is not valid until it is voted for in the Dáil, and that will not be until next week at the earliest. There is no action preventing this Estimate being voted through the Dáil next week. I am trying to suggest -----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Why is the Deputy being so truculent about this? He is going to get a table of information. He will have it tomorrow.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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For clarification, and I wish the clerk to go through the text of what is agreed, I did not ask one simple question. I asked that question. I also asked for details of the ten highest payments, the ten lowest payments, all lump sums over €100,000 -----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That will all be contained in the same table.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I asked how many people over the €32,500 -----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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None of this is relevant to the Vote.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Pardon.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The last question on how many people have been affected by the FEMPI legislation on Haddington Road is entirely irrelevant.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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How is it irrelevant?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am not saying it is irrelevant to this committee. I am saying it is irrelevant to this Vote, which is Vote 12.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will be clear about this. There is a Supplementary Estimate under sub-heading A1. This deals with superannuation allowances, compensation allowances, pensions and children's allowances. There is a requirement under that for an extra €316,000. That is the question I asked about pensions. Under sub-heading A2, there is a Supplementary Estimate required of €808,000. This sub-heading deals with payments under the contributory pension scheme for spouses of civil servants, children of civil servants and members of the judiciary and court officers. We have discussed sub-heading A4 at length. I have referred to sub-heading A5, which deals with un-established people, and the Minister is sending me a list. All the other sub-headings are coming in with a Supplementary Estimate requirement of €256,000, bringing the figure up to €31 million gross. The big element is sub-heading A4. The other ones, to my knowledge, are also there.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The Minister has opted to give the Deputy the information.
The clerk will go back through the transcript of this meeting to make sure all the relevant information the Deputy has requested is given to him-----
6:50 pm
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will not agree to this.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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----- but at the end of the-----
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will not agree to concluding until I receive the information. If it is so simple, there will be no issue.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The Minister has-----
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have written to the Secretary General of this Department asking for a breakdown of some of the savings under the Haddington Road agreement and the letter I received in reply gave me no details. While I will not go into it, this is a Department that talks about but which will not give details of expenditure. The Secretary General did not give me some of these answers.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is an outrageous attack on a public servant who is not present.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will publish the letter and hand it out to everyone.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I read the Deputy's statement of last week. It was outrageous.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am referring to the letter I received from the Secretary General of the Minister's Department. I asked for information from this Department during the course of the year on financial issues and have not received it. When I get it, I will happily agree and happily will take the Vote-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy will do no such thing. He will spin it again as he has done everything.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am the spinner now. That is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy does not need to face the Press Gallery. He can talk through the Chair like the rest of us.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The pot is calling the kettle black.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The Minister and Deputy Fleming should note we are trying to consider these two Votes.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy is doing something completely different.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We are going way beyond that and we have questions to ask the Minister on these two Votes. The Deputy has asked some questions and has he more questions to ask?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Because the Minister has offered to give the information to the sub-committee.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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And I will happily concede.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We must assume a certain level of trust that the Minister actually will answer the committee.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Members have been caught previously on this exact hoop at Oireachtas committees. This committee was caught on this hoop before.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Deputy, I have been on this finance committee since 2007, as I believe also has the Deputy.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Since then, we have been under four Ministers and I believe we have always received a reply. I cannot remember a time when a Minister has stated he or she would give information to the committee and the committee Chairman then being obliged to inform members that the information requested was not forthcoming from the Minister.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It did happen and I was obliged to go to the Ceann Comhairle, who referred me back to the committee secretariat.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I have no recollection of that.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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This has happened.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I do not remember that even under different Administrations.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to check whether I heard correctly that under Standing Orders, the consideration of this matter is completed regardless of whether members regard it as completed.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We do not vote on it, it is just that-----
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We do not vote on the Supplementary Estimates. Members vote on whether they complete their consideration of them.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is not my understanding of the Standing Orders. Does the Chairman need to read out the note again?
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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No, that is not true. We do not vote on our consideration. We do not vote.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Members do not vote on the Supplementary Estimates. They vote as to whether they have completed their consideration.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is what I am trying to establish, namely, the consideration. Wound the Chairman mind reading it again?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Read it again slowly.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I will. It states:
No decisions are taken by the committee in relation to the consideration of Estimates. The committee is only empowered to consider the Estimates and cannot alter, amend or vote on them. The committee must send a message to the Dáil when it has completed its consideration of the Estimates and it cannot decide not to do this. Under Standing Order 87 the message must be to the effect that the Select Committee has completed its consideration of an Estimate referred to it by the Dáil. There is no provision for the expression of an opinion by the committee on the Estimates in its message. As the Standing Order prescribes the nature of the message to be sent, the content is not a matter for decision by the committee.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding of that is that the sub-committee will send a message to the Dáil when it has completed its consideration. Is that what the Chairman said?
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Yes.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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When that is done, members will be happy to do that.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We can sit here all night.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am happy to adjourn the meeting.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Sorry Deputy, but in a way that is what you are saying to me as Chairman.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am asking the Chairman-----
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I have told the Deputy that the Minister will give members the information. He is saying that he wishes to sit here until such time as the Minister gives us that information.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I never said that.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I am sorry but what are we supposed to do?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a requirement to complete the process in one meeting? There could be a vote now and members might be obliged to abandon proceedings for the evening.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Chairman, this is bizarre.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I am sorry Minister and we do not need to get into a row but to be honest, the Deputy is being highly pedantic on this issue.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I was caught on this once before ----
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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It must have been-----
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is not personal to this Minister. This happened before.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will get the information for the Deputy.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Basically, the Deputy is saying members cannot trust the Minister to give information to the sub-committee.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Chairman has asked what is the situation. This happened previously on a committee in which I was involved with regard to an Estimate on which the members sought a meeting. They asked for the information, which was promised. It did not arrive before the vote in the Dáil the following week. I stood up in the Chamber of the Dáil and told the Ceann Comhairle that my party was not happy to proceed with the vote because Members were waiting for information. He told me he had a letter stating the committee had completed its consideration and that if I was not happy with what had been done at the committee, I should go back to the committee. In a previous situation in which the information was not provided as promised, the Ceann Comhairle in the Dáil told me I had no mechanism to deal with the matter and that I should not have let the matter go out of committee until I was satisfied. The Chairman should simply adjourn the meeting and members can come back next week for five minutes.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am anxious that we will proceed. There is a lot of Dáil business to be done in the short time remaining. The Deputy has asked for a simple tabular statement that I will provide tomorrow. I have said I will do so and I have never not provided what I undertook to provide to this committee. I ask the Deputy to allow this business to proceed. My officials have work to do, we need to get payments in pensions and we need to authorise the payments, as only two working weeks remain before Christmas.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What is the timescale to have the information?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will get the information for the Deputy tomorrow.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I would be happy to have it before the Whips agree the Order of Business for next week.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will do my best. Obviously, I must go through PeoplePoint because it will be necessary to go through 1,100 files. Obviously, my Department has the breakdown and it will simply tabulate it for the Deputy. It may take 48 hours, at most.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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But it can be done this week.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I certainly will do my best to provide it to the Deputy this week. However, it is a question of putting together a tabular statement for the Deputy in respect of the breakdown of the individuals who are entitled to this pension for up to 40 years' service and more to the State.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Correct.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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They are entitled to their pension-----
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Correct.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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----- and I wish to ensure they are paid their pension. More people are retiring than expected this year. Obviously, the mix of skills is something the Deputy is entitled to see and I will make sure he does.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Is that okay?
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I accept the assurance that I expect to have it before the weekend.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy. Deputy McDonald wishes to make a point.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps for future reference, when the Minister comes before a committee seeking additional moneys, having that information with him in tabular form as a matter of course would avoid all of this.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is just a way of working but it would be helpful, if people are anxious about any particular matter to give me advance notice and I will provide whatever information I can get in advance. I would be happy to do that.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is also worthy of consideration but in fairness, when additional moneys are being sought for specified additional expenditure, it is not too outlandish for members on this side of the conversation to note that 1,100 people are going into retirement and to ask what grades they are, what are the pension bands, the gratuities and so on. I would have thought that was fairly rudimentary.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No, it was never asked for previously.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The last time members debated these matters, it was precisely that terrain over which they walked with the then Minister of State, Brian Hayes. Consequently, this should not have come as any great surprise to the Minister.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Now the Chairman can read the message.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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We will not need to have a vote on the Vote and the Supplementary Estimates. I thank the Minister and his officials for assisting the committee on its consideration of the Supplementary Estimates. The sub-committee will write to the Minister with a list of what we would like in this regard.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is on the transcript. I think the Minister and his officials know.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will get the tabular statement and if there is anything else members seek, they should come back to me.
Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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If there is anything else, we will revert to the Minister. This concludes the select committee's consideration of Supplementary Estimates for Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances; and Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service. In accordance with Standing Order 87, the clerk to the committee will now convey a message to that effect to the Clerk of the Dáil. Under Standing Order 86(2) the message is deemed to be the report of the committee.