Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Barry O'Brien, government programmes executive at IBM; Mr. Peter Davitt, CEO of FIT Limited; Mr. Paul Sweetman, director at ICT Ireland and the Irish Software Association, IBEC, and FIT board member; Mr. George Ryan, FIT chief operations officer; and Mr. Kieran Sweeney, head of Microsoft Capability, Version 1, and FIT board member.
By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act, 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I note for the information of members and our guests that I attended a meeting in Rome on Thursday and Friday of last week of the chairpersons of committees specialising in employment, research and innovation as part of the parliamentary dimension of the Italian Presidency. I attended on behalf of the committee and made a contribution on the grand coalition for digital jobs, which was launched by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, in March 2013. I noted the pledge of FIT Limited to apply the FIT training and support model to secure employment for 12,000 marginalised jobseekers in Spain, Portugal, Greece and Ireland by 2016.
FIT Ireland is leading a consortium of entities from Greece, Spain, Portugal, Latvia and Lithuania, with the support of Telecentre Europe, in respect of which each country partner will plan, execute and provide an analysis of the unique training for employment pilot scheme.

The pilot provides a complete and tested series of activities which result in an ICT upskilled jobseeker entering the workplace. It received a very warm welcome from many of the members and many were afterwards very keen to hear more about it. I invite Mr. Peter Davitt to make his presentation to the committee.

Mr. Peter Davitt:

Thank you. This is our third occasion to present to the committee and we have very strong progress to report. We also want to outline a new initiative we are bringing into play to facilitate addressing the skills needs in the tech sector.

The presentation has three elements: a brief overview of FIT, information on a recent skills audit we just concluded in October and some detail on the proposed programme we are launching in January 2015. The key aspect of the presentation is that we are very conscious of growth in the economy. In the past year we have seen approximately 3,600 jobs announced in the tech sector, which gives a total of some 22,000 jobs since 2010. In terms of FIT's activity in recent months, we have seen a serious growth in activity in terms of companies taking on new staff and acquiring skills. Therefore, there is a real opportunity and, I hope, a lot of good news to be presented to the committee today.

Clearly, FIT is about the economy and about supporting competitiveness and growth. We want to acknowledge that a lot of work in regard to the opportunity for further education and training to contribute to the tech sector has been already achieved. In particular, the heavy lifting with regard to the establishment of SOLAS and the ETBs is now in place and there is a strong foundation on which to build and enable more people to acquire jobs in the tech sector at levels 5 and 6.

As previously outlined, FIT is an industry-led initiative and most of the major multinational technology companies in Ireland, plus many significant indigenous companies, are on its board. FIT is a registered charity and a not-for-profit organisation. Our endgame is to maximise the number of young and not-so-young people in Ireland to acquire the skills to compete in the tech sector. FIT commenced in Dublin in 1999 and is now an all-Ireland initiative which operates in Northern Ireland also.

In essence, our mission is to promote what we call an inclusive smart economy. There tends to be a focus in the debates and discussions around the tech sector on the need for STEM and honours maths. There is a certain need for those types of disciplines but, as we will outline later, there is a greater need for a broad range of skillsets within the IT sector in Ireland, much of which can be facilitated through programmes at levels 5 and 6. We have three key pillars in terms of our activity. We engage a lot of our activity and resources around the long-term unemployed and second-chance opportunities. More recently, because of the downturn and with the imminent growth, we have focused a lot of energy on the reskilling and upskilling of unemployed professionals. An area of particular attention for FIT at this time is the young unemployed, which is the primary focus of our presentation.

How we develop our initiatives is very much down to creating cross-collaboration, discussion and debate between industry, education and training and providers and the community sector in regard to the actual needs of industry. Thereafter, we engage widely with unemployed individuals to mobilise and encourage them to consider careers and skills within the IT sector. To date, with the support of the ETBs, SOLAS and industry, more than 16,500 people have participated in FIT programmes, of whom more than 12,000 are in jobs today.

One of the clear messages we need to get out to the wider public, including the parents and young people of Ireland, is that the IT sector requires a broad range of skills and is not all programming or algorithms. It requires a variety of skillsets from people who are person-orientated, who are good with their hands, who are creative or who are artistic, as well as those whose focus is the hard coding and programming. There is a variety of different career routes within the tech sector that can be considered by individuals, career guidance teachers and parents.

What we are saying, and as we see on a daily basis, is that ICT skills permeate job opportunities. To compete even at a general level within the general economy requires an appreciation, knowledge and understanding of ICT. For example, 90% of vacancies are advertised online, and applications are made online. It is very much a knowledge-based society.

A key backdrop to our presentation is that we have just concluded our second ICT skills audit for 2014 the focus of which was to identify the needs and demands of the technology sector, to facilitate policy makers and education and training providers with programmes that are responsive to emerging and future needs, and to give direction to young people and jobseekers in terms of imminent opportunities. In essence it is to create a more complete, comprehensive talent pipeline. On this occasion more than 60 companies participated in the skills audit, representing in excess of 30,000 employees.

The information from the skills audit is robust and accurate. The good news is that we have identified in excess of 7,000 vacancies within the technology sector in Ireland. Those vacancies are available today, and it is interesting that 75% of them can be filled through programmes at levels 5 and 6. They fall within the range of what we call competent and entry level, whereas 25% of them are at the higher expert level. Within that framework we are promoting a broader community of smart people with smart skills.

In our discussions we see an upturn in the economy. There is definite growth within the technology sector in Ireland. Every day we hear of new job announcements but we need to make hay while the sun shines. We must first address the vacancies that are available with appropriate programmes and then build additional programmes responsive to future needs and demands within the sector.

We are getting clear messages from both multinational and indigenous companies that there is strong confidence in the skills base within Ireland but there is a desire to see more people come through that framework in terms of job opportunities.

Regarding the skills audit, we took a unique approach in terms of the analysis in that we broke down the technology sector into 12 different disciplines. In each of those disciplines we broke down the sub-skillsets that are required within the technology sector because IT is a very broad area, and it can be confusing for individuals. Certain skillsets can be required in three or four different disciplines so we took a grander approach. We broke it down into sub-skillsets and then broke it down further because we wanted companies to clearly identify where they recruit people at an entry level position and where they require what we call competent and expert level positions. Through that we have been able to develop a range of new courses and programmes that are much more responsive to the emerging and future needs of the technology sector. From our perspective this model has worked well in terms of responding to the future needs and demands of the technology sector but we believe a similar model could be engaged across other sectors of the economy such as pharmaceutical and medical, hospitality, catering etc. There might be a template the committee might consider would be appropriate in terms of enabling growth in other sectors of the economy.

The skills audit identified a substantial number of employment opportunities. A fundamental issue that was recognised is that we need to have a far broader perspective and understanding of tertiary education. Currently in Ireland we seem to work in two silos, first, the silo on planning around further education and training and, second, the silo on planning around higher education and training, but there does not seem to be a continuum. To a degree we have created a polarity.

In some ways there is a general perspective that the most valuable route to skills is predominantly higher education or third level education. Sometimes that is at the expense of appreciation of the potential contribution of further education in terms of meeting the skills demands of our economy and its ability to facilitate a broader range of people considering skills sets.

If one looks at the totality of our tertiary education system, currently we invest in excess of €1.5 billion in third level provision or higher education. We also invest more than €800 million in further education and training. For that reason alone, there must be better joined-up thinking between what is really achievable and deliverable under FE and what is necessarily achievable and deliverable under higher education.

What has enabled a review and reassessment of the quality of FE has been the development of the new common awards system with Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI. For example, we had a direct role in developing the new ICT awards at levels 5 and 6 and we have great confidence in their robustness and responsiveness to the current and emerging needs of industry. The programmes we can build in the future are of a much higher quality and calibre than what may have existed, due to past certification becoming outdated over time. They are now fit for purpose and the value and quality of FE and its potential to contribute to the tech sector and beyond is much stronger than in the past.

In that context, the key lessons of what we are saying is that we must find a more effective dialogue between higher and further education. We must encourage and persuade young people that levels 5 and 6 are also a pathway to careers in IT. We must also reflect on the dialogue or primary promotion that the only way to a career in IT is through STEM and honours mathematics. While there will be always a need and demand for more graduates, there also will be a greater demand for broader skills sets. The danger with just that dialogue is that we might encourage more people to deselect themselves from considering careers in IT because they do not necessarily have STEM or honour mathematics, rather than thinking they are potential candidates.

I attended an event we held this morning with the City of Dublin Education and Training Board, ETB, in one of the Hilton hotels. There were 300 young people looking at the possibility of working with Microsoft and exploring different career opportunities in the tech sector. The level of confidence and aspiration within that room was amazing. We must encourage and nurture that with the development of new programmes.

With regard to the key recommendations that emerge from the skills audit, the good news is that there are more than 7,000 vacancies. There is a requirement to develop new and appropriate courses at levels 5 and 6, a necessity to create a greater dialogue between further and higher education, we must break down the sides of the two and we must present tertiary education as a continuum of education, not one path or another path. Both are equally valued by the sector and create real opportunity.

One of the concluding recommendations in the skills audit has its findings in the previous skills audit of 2012, which at that time identified 4,000 to 4,500 vacancies within the tech sector. The number of vacancies has increased. One of the key recommendations in the previous draft of the audit identified the need to introduce a dual education initiative within ICT at level 5 and level 6. I am pleased to announce that the recommendation was fully endorsed in the latest draft of the skills audit 2014 and we are now in a position, with the support of the Government, to begin a pilot of the ICT associate professional, which is a dual education or an apprenticeship style approach to skills training for the tech sector. I would love to be able to say it is very new and innovative but, to some degree, we are playing catch up. The UK, Germany, Denmark and Australia have been applying apprenticeship type models to skills development in the non-traditional trades for many years.

However, we are very enthusiastic about the model presented in the presentation. We have strong industry buy-in to it. There was a long gestation period in developing this initiative and there was a great deal of dialogue with education and training providers, industry and potential learners.

The initiative will involve a two year programme during which participants will achieve a level 5 or level 6 information and communications technology technical award, either in systems and networks or software development. They will also achieve level 5 or level 6 professional development project management certification. The first six months will be college-based. During the second year three days will be spent in the workplace and two days in college, while in the last six months four days will be spent in the workplace and one day in college.

I am a product of the old apprenticeship model, as I am a bricklayer by trade. I have seen first-hand the potential of dual education or applied learning in enabling people to combine technical know-how with application in the workplace. Regardless of the programme involved, one of the concerns of companies in engaging graduates is that they can and often do have the technical or academic understanding but not necessarily the application or they do not appreciate how to apply that knowledge and understanding in the workplace. These programmes are not only required at levels 5 and 6. We maintain that they are required within higher education also.

The intention is that during the first six months the candidates will remain on whatever allowances to which they are entitled, whether a training allowance or a social welfare payment. From the second six months onwards, in the remaining 18 months, they would be paid by the companies in question. The idea is that they would be sponsored by companies from the outset. We have a strong buy-in and commitment from companies. Already leading companies such as Accenture, CIX, Fujitsu, IBM, Microsoft, SAP and Version 1 have signed up to it. We have discussed the possibilities with a variety of other companies and their level of interest is substantial.

This is going live. Our first recruitment fair for candidates will commence on 9 December in the RDS. The first two courses will commence in Dublin, followed by courses in the midlands and Cork regions. Our intention is that by the middle to the end of next year programmes will be available throughout the country. One key aspect is that this is not an urban initiative. We can be found in a variety of locations throughout the country and are keen to engage as many young people as possible. Our initial pilot scheme covers 200 places, but our aspiration is that within three to five years we will have 3,000 odd people involved in such programmes.

While this is a level 6 programme, the expectation is that it will also be a progression pathway to further and higher education. The idea is that candidates will not remain at level 6 at the end of the programme. The intention is that, in collaboration with their companies and in line with personal career aspirations, they will progress and continue to further and higher education.

That is the overview. We have a clear understanding of the technology sector, its needs and the opportunities it offers. It is a growth sector. We need to fuel that growth and in fuelling it we can stimulate other companies to consider Ireland as a location. Within that context we believe this initiative incorporating ICT and professionals is of its time and needs broad support. I will be glad to take questions from the committee.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Davitt and the group represented before the committee. The initiative it has enacted is exciting and I hope and I am confident that it will go from strength to strength.

At third level it often goes in cycles and people tend to move into whatever sector is going well. The deputation will remember the dot coms in the early 2000s and the number of people who got involved in that area. We then had a boom in the construction, engineering and architecture sectors. It is certainly a good initiative that the programme will allow companies with real job opportunities to become involved and, in turn, provide training.

I wish to comment on what the deputation states is the experience of the third level sector and the flaws within it. Let us compare this country with Germany which is a powerhouse in manufacturing.

Germany has more apprenticeships, uses a model of on the job training and gives people the skills to face life's challenges and work.

Earlier it was alluded to that the number of vacancies has increased but the 7,000 figure is stuck in my head. I thought there was 7,000 job opportunities in this country three years ago that could not be filled by Irish graduates. Have some of those jobs been filled? Is the delegation confident that new jobs will come on stream?

Mr. Peter Davitt:

Yes.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I presumed so. The 7,000 figure sounds familiar. Have we missed the boat? Will companies outsource and continue to train people from other spheres? That is not an issue and is good for the economy.

There is a pilot scheme to provide 200 places and Mr. Davitt said that FIT aspires to have up to 3,000 places within three to five years.

Mr. Peter Davitt:

Yes, that is our aspiration.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Is the delegation confident that 7,000 places will be filled or will still be available by using this model?

Mr. Paul Sweetman:

I will address those key points. First, I will deal with the Deputy's views on the third level sector. We are talking about creating a mix in the third level sector. We have strong programmes at third level and are producing levels 7, 8 and 9 graduates. However, competing jurisdictions is what we are putting the real emphasis on here today. As the tech sector is booming globally the talent need is the same in all of the other jurisdictions and we are trying to target a mix. The third level sector is strong but we do not have an appropriate apprenticeship model for the digital sector and digital age. That is what we are talking about here. We also have conversion programmes and bring people in from other non-tech sectors into the tech sector. This is not so much about what we have but about what we are missing which is what the associate professional scheme is about.

Second, I share the Deputy's concern about vacancies and the skills demand piece. Let me give a couple of figures that show we are progressing strongly. When I started this job about five or six years ago, 74,000 people were employed in the tech sector broadly but we now have 105,000 people employed which means there has been a strong increase in employment in the sector of 40%.

Third, the vacancy rate is a good news story as it means there has been very healthy growth in the sector. Going back to my previous point, there is global competition for talent and Ireland has created a competitive advantage. In every jurisdiction every company is trying to find the right skills for their companies. Ireland is doing a lot to put its best foot forward and has done so better than some other countries. Ireland has an ICT skills action plan and the proposed associate professional programme. Ireland is now the victim of its own success because some companies that came here with five or six employees but met their target to find 100 skilled employees ahead of time changed strategy and now wants to hire up to 250 people. Ireland has improved. It is now being recognised as a very strong country for skills and this aspect will continue to grow.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I shall allow Deputy Kyne one last question.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Are people with level 8 qualifications or third level degrees returning? Are these jobs open to them? Is the delegation referring to people who have experience of third level? For a number of years governments here pushed to increase the number of third level graduates. Are these jobs an alternative opportunity? Parents sometimes push children by saying to them that they have to go to third level rather than look at this model. Is there a battle to attract people to the scheme? Is the delegation confident that enough people will sign up?

Mr. Peter Davitt:

We are saying there has been an under utilisation of FE in addressing the skills agenda of the tech sector and we need to address the issue. There must also be recognition that people use different methods to learn and develop skills. For some people third level, as we know it, is an ideal pathway way in terms of a career, attaining skills and career development.

For others, a dual education approach can be more responsive to their capabilities and interests. Since FIT was established, it has trained more than 16,500 with ETBs across the country and more than 12,000 are in jobs. Learners and their families may under appreciate the fact that it is a credible pathway to a career in the technology sector. It is not all about honours maths. The tech sector needs a much broader range of skill sets, interests and talents, and we need to get this message out. Many people may be deselecting themselves from contemplating it as a career opportunity because they perceive it is for other people. We are saying this is not the case and we are trying to broaden the ICT talent pipeline.

Anthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are very welcome. It is a pity we cannot get such information out there more regularly. I did not realise that there were 7,000 tech vacancies, up from 4,000. The witnesses highlighted the fact that we are behind the curve on apprenticeships. Are we behind on anything else?

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Does anybody have a telephone swithced on? Could everybody check and turn them off, as there is interference with the broadcasting.

Anthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It might be my tablet. I am not a tech nerd.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses can recruit the Deputy.

Anthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I could do with a level 5 in ICT. Is there anything we need to watch out for? We always seem to be behind the curve, although we are good at some initiatives and get ahead. Is there anything we need to push at Government level over the next five to seven years to get ahead? I understand FIT is working with the ETBs and trying to start with 200 apprenticeships. How can people find out about it? From a Government perspective, communication has been poor. This is a good news story about which nobody ever hears. We need to make it known, if possible. Is the recruitment fair for apprentices only? The committee will do what it can to advertise and push it because it is not all about people with university qualifications. CoderDojo has done remarkable work to introduce many children to IT, although they might not have the qualifications to get into third level eventually.

Mr. Kieran Sweeney:

Getting the message out is important. It is version one of an indigenous company in terms of growth. We provide services to public and private customers all over Ireland, and it is very important that we are looking to spread the entry into technology. The Deputy is correct in the sense that young people have technical skills far above those already in employment, including some in the technology sector, and we want to capitalise on this by ensuring all possible routes are open to them, broadening the pipeline for talent, giving everybody all the opportunities we can and bringing in the maximum number of people. The open positions are the potential. Ireland’s technical strength is already recognised globally and we must continue to feed that and encourage those roles. This training does not just feed the technology sector but enables wider economic growth. For the next five to seven years it is important we remember how much of an enabler technology will be.

We see the impact of technology in all areas and bringing that technical ability to all organisations will benefit these organisations individually, as well as benefiting the country in terms of our ability to compete on a global stage. Services will be available from anywhere on the globe and the ability to use technology effectively and efficiently will allow us to create technically enabled jobs in all sectors. That will be a huge factor in the years to come.

Anthony Lawlor (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Where else do the witnesses think we need to keep ahead of the curve?

Mr. Peter Davitt:

We could probably take steps to enhance our analysis in terms of the skills agenda. A grander analysis similar to the framework we put together for the skills audit could be used for other sectors of the economy, such as pharma, medical devices, hospitality and culinary skills. We need a deeper understanding of these sectors, and the best way to get this understanding is through direct dialogue with companies. I acknowledge the huge investment made by companies in terms of the skills audit. I spend a significant amount of time going in and out of companies. Companies are busy doing their day jobs and growing their business. The one occasion on which I found it difficult to engage with companies was when we discussed the needs of industry and how they could be better facilitated through provision. There is a need for more proactive or dynamic initiatives for dialogue and responding to the needs of industry across different sectors. We also need more effective dialogue between the continuum of what is provided in further education and higher education. We need to break down the polarity that exists because there is not enough dialogue between the two sectors.

The education and training boards, ETBs, are major providers of ICT programmes. The associated profession will be run in collaboration with the ETBs. The first 200 are pilot places but we are confident it will grow quite significantly thereafter once we have demonstrated the potential impact on industry and learners. No course will commence in the absence of industry sponsorship. The commitment we have behind us is that every programme which commences will have companies sponsoring each individual on the programme from the outset.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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The witnesses are very welcome. We have heard them discuss some of these topics previously. One of the areas that excites but also worries me is the number of vacancies that exist. We seem to be slow in developing things. I was interested to learn that Mr. Davitt was formerly a bricklayer and was then able to change direction. I recently presented awards for the applied leaving certificate to individuals aged 16, 17 and 18 years. These people are learning skills at the same time as they are getting an education. The ability to see people lift themselves up and achieve in certain areas is heartening. One individual, Paul Mooney, left school at the age of 14 years and worked for me as a butcher in one of our supermarkets before leaving to develop himself and become president of the National College of Ireland. That is an example of the ability of somebody to switch from one area to another, particularly in respect of switching from something involving skills of the hands to being able to use the skills of the mind as well.

Is Springboard doing the right job or could it be doing more? Springboard is aimed at people who have experience and ability at level 5 or above but who discover that there were no job vacancies for their skills, particularly when the construction industry was not hiring. Through Springboard, they were able to switch from areas like the construction industry to something else. They may well be needed back in construction now.

Can we learn something from the experience of other countries? Reference was made to apprenticeships in Germany. It frustrates me to think that vacancies exist at the same time that a large number of people are unemployed.

It still frustrates me to think that there are vacancies, yet a large number of people are unemployed. What do we have to do to be able to get them to change direction from where they are to be able to say they are willing to learn? There is a hunger to learn and the delegation is giving people the ability to feed that. Can the committee or State help with that?

Mr. Peter Davitt:

In fairness, over the past five or six years many new initiatives and interventions have come into play, all of which are valid and useful. We have responded very well collectively to the crisis and recession, and we have tried to create skills. One size does not fit all. Springboard has its place and is a valuable contributor in terms of addressing skills, as are initiatives such as Momentum, skills training and FETAC levels 5 and 6. We need to have a co-ordinated approach and very clear expectations for each industry sector in terms of what can be achieved and delivered over a period of time. We are very clear about the employment potential within the tech sector and want to maximise the realisation of employment in that sector. From a FIT perspective, when we get up in the morning we are thinking about the 7,000 vacancies, and how we will develop more programmes and encourage more people to acquire skills. We can add value with a more co-ordinated approach.

In Ireland there is a focus on dual education and apprenticeship models for traditional trades, and that has been very successful. Let us take that learning and apply it to other sectors of the economy. Any work-orientated programme, provided by whatever entity, be it a third level institution, a further education body or the private sector, should be employment proofed. There should be clear expectations in terms of the anticipated outcomes from a programme and it should achieve them to ensure ongoing support and funding. We can take certain actions, have better co-ordination and open up dialogue between further and higher education.

We could support career guidance. It needs to be provided at a much earlier stage because by 17 and 18 years of age it is too late. We need to talk to young people aged 14 and 15 years about future career prospects and perhaps provide them with sampling opportunities. We need to equip the career guidance infrastructure with a broader appreciation of the skills of the economy and ensure that people know there is not just one route, namely, third level provision. There needs to be more joined-up thinking, a more focused approach, some clear targets and the concept of employment grouping

Mr. Paul Sweetman:

I will add to what Mr. Davitt said. There is a clear picture of what needs to be done. In many respects, the programmes are in place and it might be a matter of bringing them together. There is concern about the 7,000 vacancies, but I wish to reinforce the good work which has been done. We were ranked third in the world by the IMD competitiveness yearbook for the availability of skills in 2013. We have now moved up to first, which is a good improvement. Just because we are first does not mean we can rest on our laurels. We still need to keep on pushing.

There are four or five pillars in terms of tackling the growing skills demand. It is a healthy demand because of the great things many companies who want to invest in Ireland see. Companies want to invest and bring their companies here, and there are also growing indigenous sectors. We have conversion programmes, and that is part of what Skillnets is. Skillnets, another Government programme, supports the conversion of graduates from different fields. We have the traditional third level degree programmes offered by institutes of technology and universities. We now have the associate professional programme.

On the other side, the IDA does great work in attracting companies to Ireland, but we also need to work on attracting people to Ireland. People look at Ireland as a very strong place to invest for their tech companies. Why not look at it as a very strong place for people to invest in their tech careers?

In other words, no longer would it be a big thing for a person just to list a particular company on his or her CV. It would also be a real feather in a person's cap, in terms of his or her tech career, to have worked in Ireland. Those four aspects are very important. We have measures in place in terms of all of them and therefore it is just a matter of bringing it all together.

Touching on what Mr. Davitt said about career guidance, underlying all this is the need to ensure that students and teenagers considering careers - and parents and those who are guiding them - know of the great opportunities available. We have a programme called Smart Futures that is run through Science Foundation Ireland. It promotes tech careers. We need to continue to push this. We are starting to have all of the key elements and there is a reason we are now first in the world for availability of skilled labour. We can do even better. All of those pieces add together. There are two things we need to recognise. Tech companies do not just need tech skills. They need people with critical communication skills and business acumen. Those things are very important for many of the tech companies in Ireland. Non-tech companies need tech skills as well. It is very important to recognise all of the opportunities that are available to this broad eco-system of tech.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I was at the launch of the skills audit in IBM. Many CEOs of the Education and Training Boards, ETBs, were there. What has been the momentum since then? Have the ETBs begun to not only listen but to act on some of the points made in the skills audit? Have they started chopping and changing what they do in order to provide courses that address the issues raised in the ICT skills audit?

I welcome what Mr. Davitt had to say on requiring courses to be employment-proofed. In the very early days, when we came into Government, there was a carryover. Some courses were being offered simply because they were the courses that were always offered. No one was questioning their outcomes or the employability of someone who had completed a particular course. Much has changed since then. However, the committee should seek to ensure the relevant Departments would require employment-proofing of courses and other projections for the future.

People look at the issue of career guidance from many different aspects. From the secondary school point of view, a career guidance-counselling model operates at the moment. Recently, many highly qualified people, who do the best they can, have entered the career guidance-counselling profession. We had a problem a few years ago in the banking sector. The people responsible for signing off on loan approval did not understand the tech sector. Often, people with ideas - potential SMEs - were not able to get loans because of a misunderstanding of the tech sector and the type of business a person was trying to put forward. Looking at the bigger picture, is that the case in career guidance at the moment? Is there an absence, across the board, of a real understanding of the variety of avenues and types of jobs and professions available? Are we ensuring young people get the best outcomes when they receive career guidance - not the counselling part - in school? My understanding is that this may not be the case. That is through no fault of theirs. Do we need to investigate that a bit more?

Mr. Peter Davitt:

Career guidance is fundamental. It sets an individual on a particular path. Everything can be enhanced and improved. In terms of career guidance, no one is an expert in everything and no one can be. We therefore have to find mechanisms by which career guidance teachers, schools and other resources can leverage the advice and insight of others. We need to find mechanisms to ensure more effective dialogue between the industry - and different sectors - and schools and colleges. There may also be a role for chambers of commerce and so forth so that they can have a more direct input.

For every course we support across the country, at whatever level, we organise a company visit. Everybody goes on a company visit as part of their training, ideally to a company in an area relevant to what the person is studying. This gives an insight into the job opportunities that are out there and offers students an opportunity to talk to employees in the sector. People doing certification examinations may hit a brick wall and wonder what is the point of going on. This type of industry engagement can help them to see it is worth persisting and there is a job at the end of it.

I do not like the term "mock interviews"; we prefer to call them "simulated interviews". We put great emphasis on this particular strategy, which involves asking people to research actual job vacancies before having them "interviewed" for those roles by an industry representative, FIT staff member or a tutor from the relevant education and training board or college. It is about bringing real life into training and there is scope for us to do more in this regard. We are looking to do more, for example, in terms of supporting career guidance within schools and finding creative ways of ensuring an effective dialogue between industry and colleges.

At this point we have worked with most education and training boards throughout the country. They have come through a massive change process, as part of the fundamental reform of the entire further education sector. It is the most significant reform we have seen in a long time. My instinct in talking to CEOs, principals and tutors is that there is a real desire and enthusiasm to build for the future and create the right programmes. There is a recognition, too, that programmes must develop and evolve. Instead of having two pillars working in the same space, we now have a single, more focused approach. My sense in working with ETBs and colleges is that there is a strong desire to get the right types of courses in place and a strong commitment to enabling people to acquire the skills they need to compete for jobs. I am very optimistic that the ETBs, with the support of SOLAS, will be very responsive to opportunities in the technology sector and beyond.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Mr. Davitt. I congratulate FIT on the funding it was awarded to develop its programme in other countries. What progress has there been in that regard? Has there been any engagement with the European Commission in terms of outlining what is being done and the potential for putting this programme into European Commission policy?

Mr. George Ryan:

FIT has been working for ten years or more as partner to organisations in other EU countries. In fact, we have developed more European projects than any other organisation in Ireland and have led 15 or so of them in recent years. Most of these projects were in the education and training space and it was the Directorate General of that area which awarded the funding. However, it should be borne in mind that FIT's message is really about employment. There is an education and training dimension, which needs support, but we are primarily about helping people to find jobs. In that context, we have worked with the Directorate General for Employment, Social Affairs and Equal Opportunities in recent years to try to get the message across that FIT is really about the employment outcome.

The funding for the programme the Chairman mentioned, which is really about spreading the FIT model to other countries, including Portugal, Greece, Spain, Latvia and Lithuania, came from that particular Directorate General. The outgoing Commissioner for Employment, Social Affairs and Inclusion, Mr. László Andor, wrote to FIT in his last year in office to say he believed in what we are doing and that we must get this message out to other countries. As is always the case when it comes to EU funding, one must compete; nothing is never handed out. We had an opportunity to apply for funding to spread the FIT model and were successful in that application. This came in the wake of the pledge FIT gave at a meeting of the Grand Coalition for Digital Jobs of our intention to do so. We made that pledge two years ago and followed it up with the hard work of putting in a proposal, applying for funding and engaging with partners in other countries. The first partner meeting took place in Rome, probably around the same time the Chairman was there. That programme is now off the ground.

It may be our sixteenth EU programme and we have many partners all over Europe. We are particularly pleased with this as it replicates the FIT model and after it has been piloted by these five countries we hope to extend it to a broader range of countries.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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After I raised the model in my intervention many of those holding my position in other countries were very keen to hear more as they see it as part of policy development. There is an urgency to all this of which people are conscious. I believe the progression rate through the courses is high for young people; what is that rate?

Mr. Peter Davitt:

Depending on the programme, it ranges from 64% to 74%. We commit to stay with people for three years. Some people start with level five and go on to level six and this is fine with us as long as it leads to job opportunities. The goal is to get people jobs and if the courses have the right content and calibre and are aimed towards the correct job opportunities it is an easy fix.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I believe it is the case that young people in long-term unemployment have been identified as key by the witnesses. What of long-term unemployed people that have reached level 7 or 8? Perhaps they have done arts degrees or the like and cannot find opportunities - could they apply to take some of these courses?

Mr. Peter Davitt:

There are various pillars to FIT activity. The core business is to give second-chance opportunities to the long-term unemployed. In recent years we have shifted focus somewhat to unemployed professionals. We have been reskilling and upskilling people from the construction sector and other areas that have reached level six, seven or eight but may not have technology or project management skills. Under MOMENTUM we have assisted around 500 people and another 200 are in the pipeline. Unfortunately, the level of youth unemployment is high in Ireland so we focus on young people through the associate professional initiative because they have talent and ability. The associate professional initiative is an effective conduit - the aim is get people with high skill levels through the programme within two years rather than four. This is an immediate response to the need for skilled young people in the economy.

We are conscious that Ireland is an island in the European economy and the ICT sector across Europe needs 800,000 skilled workers. If a variant of this model can support people in Portugal, Greece and elsewhere we will commit to support such efforts.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I want to thank the representatives of FIT limited. Does anybody else wish to comment?

Mr. George Ryan:

I would like to hear a comment from Mr. Barry O'Brien, the representative of IBM, as it was one of the first companies to support an ICT associate professional. We were delighted for such a large organisation to get involved.

Mr. Barry O'Brien:

I will take a minute to give the perspective of IBM on this as the company has supported FIT for many years. I am not sure how familiar the committee members are with the story of IBM in Ireland. We invested in a campus facility in Mulhuddart in the mid-1990s, employing thousands of people in three large manufacturing operations. For a variety of reasons, each of these manufacturing operations left Ireland over the years. However, today IBM employs more people in Ireland and at higher skill levels than ever before - this was achieved by upskilling the workforce and attracting people with the right skills. There is no one answer to how IBM became a success in Ireland - it was a mixture of hiring local talent, growing our own talent through a variety of programmes, attracting people with the right skills from outside Ireland and so on. The work presented by FIT today sends the message that there is not a one-size-fits-all approach to these things. There is much talk of the need for top graduates and people with PhDs in the skills debate - we have also been guilty of emphasising this, partially because we have a research activity and a strong demand for the highest level skills.

That is too simple a story.

The good news is that it does not represent the full level of demand. As Mr. Davitt set out, there is demand at levels 5 and 6. As we know, it does not suit everybody to go through the traditional route of doing the leaving certificate, spending a few years in college and then looking for a job. The ICT associate professional programme outlined today is a very strong addition to the mix of pathways that exist for people, as are Springboard, MOMENTUM and some of the other programmes mentioned. From the perspective of a company which needs to attract the greatest level of skills we can, the greater the variety of paths open to people the better. Part of the challenge for the industry, FIT and the committee is to communicate this message more broadly.

The programme which FIT will shortly launch will be a great addition to the Irish ecosystem and I commend Mr. Davitt and Mr. Ryan on their work on bringing the issue to the fore. Their report is unique in the way it has gone from the ground up and shown the vacancies that exist. While a figure such as 7,000 raises some eyebrows, it does not suggest the same 7,000 jobs have been going unfilled for months and we have a huge problem. Rather, it is a snapshot of the level of demand. While I would not want to say everything is fine and we should not worry, I would see the positive side as Mr. Sweetman outlined earlier. The vacancies are rolling and the overall employment level is growing. From IBM's perspective, while we always want more skills, the lack of them has not stopped us from doing anything or been a blocker for us, and that is good. I hope the programme will be a great success and we are very happy to support it at the pilot stage.

Mr. Peter Davitt:

We would value and appreciate the committee's endorsement of the ICT skills audit report and its support for the introduction of the ICT associate professional programme. We thank the committee for its time and attention.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their very interesting presentation on the skills audit. The fact that FIT is linked to industry and can provide the knowledge of what industry wants is unique. We wish them continued success.