John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of the meeting is to engage with Mr. John Fitzgerald, chairperson designate of the National Transport Authority, to discuss the approach he proposes to take when reappointed to the role and his views on the challenges facing the authority.

At this stage, members are well aware of the Government decision of May 2011 which put new arrangements in place for the appointment of persons to State boards and bodies. The committee welcomes the opportunity to meet with the chairperson designate in public session to hear his views and we trust that this provides greater transparency to the process of appointment to our State boards and bodies.
On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Fitzgerald. I wish to draw his attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if he is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and he continues to do so, he is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his evidence. He is directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and he is asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible, he should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also advise him that any submission or opening statements he has provided to the committee will be published on the committee website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

I will begin by giving some background information on myself. I worked in the private sector for about ten years, during which time I qualified as an accountant. I then moved to the public sector and spent most of my working life in local government. I was the first manager of South Dublin County Council, based in Tallaght, when it was set up in 1994, along with the other two Dublin county councils. I served as Dublin city manager until 2006. Since then I have served as chair of An Post, for one term, and of the Grangegorman Development Agency, which is now the new DIT campus. There are 1,000 students up there at the moment. I was also asked by the Government to look at social problems in Limerick, which were problematic at that time. Consequent to that report to Government, I was asked to chair the agency that was set up to deal with those problems. It was set up for five years with a sunset clause that at the end of five years it would go back into local government. It is now part of the new single authority in Limerick and is still working very successfully there.

The committee is quite familiar with the National Transport Authority, NTA, and we have been here before, so I will not go into too much detail. It was talked about for a long time and eventually when it was set up it was to be a single-purpose authority to bring all transport modes together, which had been pretty disparate in the past, and to bring those into line with infrastructural provision through the planning process. The two areas had operated almost separately since the foundation of the State. It started off as a Dublin body, the Dublin Transport Authority; then its remit was extended nationally and it became the National Transport Authority, with specific planning responsibilities as well. The legislation that established the NTA is very complex, but if one were to boil it down to one sentence in the Act, it is the one that defines its role as "the development of an integrated transport system which contributes to environmental sustainability and social cohesion and promotes economic progress". That says it all. It takes in both the transport and planning aspects. The NTA has an extensive and growing list of functions. This growing list means extra responsibilities and pressures on us, but we accept that as Government acclamation, in a sense, that the authority is doing well and that the Government is prepared to entrust it with more activities than we had before. We have many more activities now than we had in the past. The full list is much to long to discuss here, but the main ones are the contracts with CIE, the provision of integrated ticketing and transport information, the development of the public transport system through capital investment, the licensing of commercial bus services, management and expansion of the rural transport programme, which is the latest addition to the list; the provision of cycling and bus infrastructure, including new buses - Dublin Bus is buying in about 80 new buses and refurbishing many others; the development of a single public transport brand, which we have never had before; and regulation of taxis and hackneys, which is also a more recent development.

The authority has an annual income of approximately €450 million and we spend most of that on subsidies to the CIE companies, as well as a range of things that provide much value for money through local authorities and other agencies. We have big ticket items like the Luas cross-city range, right through to bus shelters.

I have provided the Chairman with a copy of the annual report and there are copies available also for other members of the committee. That gives an overview of what we are at, but I will mention a couple of them. We published two major plans for greater Dublin which accounts for about 40% of the State’s transport, population and economic activity. We published the integrated implementation plan, which was approved by the Minister during the year. We also published the cycle network plan for the greater Dublin area.

We are doing everything we can to prioritise the development of initiatives that will boost the image of public transport. To summarise, we are making public transport more attractive rather than beating people out of their cars. A lot of people are reluctant to be beaten out of their cars but we want to make the public transport offering as attractive as possible, so that people will choose to use it. There is evidence that that is happening.

Members of the committee know the figures. The economy is growing again and we are preparing for the next period of economic activity, which means that there will be a lot more commuters, thankfully. If every one of those commuters chooses to travel into city centres by car, we will not have enough space for them and the whole system will gum up. Everything we are doing therefore is designed to encourage people to get out of cars and use public transport because it is more attractive.

On 1 December, we will have the new five-year contracts with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann, which are being signed at the moment. Passenger numbers are growing again, thankfully. They had been declining for the last few years. We have decided to open up 10% of subsidised services to competitive tendering in order to introduce benchmark pricing of subsidised bus services. Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann will be able to participate in that tender process.

A new contract for the operation of the Luas service was awarded this year also. In recent months, we have worked closely with Iarnród Éireann which has had particular financial problems. We are looking closely at the operation of the whole rail network in trying to define what exactly is needed to finance Iarnród Éireann in the long term.

In 2013, construction started on the Luas cross-city project. It not only connects both Luas lines, but also runs right up to Grangegorman and connects with the western line. The reality is that while the Luas is visually attractive and adds a lot to the city, the dependence for the time being will be mainly on buses. We are therefore putting a lot of effort into developing the bus system, including new bus corridors. One of the current priorities is the one linking Swords to the city centre, which is going through a public consultation process at the moment. We are putting a lot of effort into that one and there are two others to follow once we get that consultation process finished.

In the meantime, heavy rail is not being forgotten. We are hoping to re-open the tunnel that runs under the Phoenix Park, which would open up all kinds of possibilities to link the south and south west of the city with the city centre, as well as with the south east of the city where a lot of economic activity is happening at the moment.

The Government has introduced legislation to tighten up the taxi sector considerably. We are in the business of implementing that at the moment.

In addition, a lot of work is being done on rural transport. It is something that has been talked about for years and the objective is to try to tidy and tighten it up, making is more cost-effective by reducing the number of bodies involved. It is not just about that, however. Being from rural Ireland myself, I know what it is like for people who live in rural areas but do not have a car. It is important for them to have an alternative, which is the public transport system. We are trying to ensure that new measures are introduced if the existing system is not good enough.

The bike scheme has been very successful in Dublin. It was launched in Galway yesterday, and will be in Cork and Limerick within the next few days.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

The organisation is young, having been set up only five years ago. It has been regarded as being very successful. The ultimate accolade is that we have been asked to take on more functions in recognition of the fact that we do them well. Much of what we do is on the transport side but there is a powerful emphasis also on the land use planning side, sometimes that is forgotten. Even the name, the National Transport Authority, suggests it is only a transport body. We spend much time working with regional and planning authorities. We have had serious problems in the past concerning housing estates built in areas where there was no public transport or shopping centres. We have much power in terms of how we work with regional and local authorities. We try to work largely by consensus and this works well. We meet with them frequently and discuss the issues and generally they are happy with what we are trying to do. We are very conscious of our role and our accountability to the Government and the committee, and we are at pains to ensure that any information required by the committee, including parliamentary questions, are dealt with expeditiously.

The board has done a good job. I pay tribute to a number of the members who are stepping down now at the end of the five year term. I pay a particular tribute to Mr. Gerry Murphy, CEO, who has appeared before the committee on a number of occasions and is finishing his contract. He has chosen not to go forward again. The authority is buzzing and doing a good job which has been acknowledged; much credit for which is due to Mr. Gerry Murphy.

The Minister has asked me to remain on for another term with the authority in the interests of continuity, as many others, including Mr. Gerry Murphy, are leaving. I have agreed to remain on for two and a half years, a half contract. I think that is enough in the circumstances. I have agreed to do that, subject to the committee's views.

We have appeared before the committee many times and it is acknowledged that we have done a reasonably good job. I look forward to continuing to work with the authority.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Fitzgerald for outlining what he has done, what he is doing and what he hopes to do in the future. On behalf of the committee I wish to be associated with his comments on Mr. Gerry Murphy. He has appeared before the committee and has responded to our questions and concerns head-on at all times.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Fitzgerald for his contribution. I have been on the council with him for many years and am well aware of his ability. There are a few areas about which I am concerned. Following recent conversations with the Minister I am alarmed in regard to a number of issues but, particularly, the recent price increases for Dublin Bus. He attributed a certain amount of the increases to the input of the NTA. I would like to hear Mr. Fitzgerald's position on it. Given the increasing number of people using public transport it does not appear to make sense. We have had many price increases in recent years. The people who are most affected are the least well off because they tend to pay cash. It is well and good saying one can get better value with the Leap card but one must be able to hand over cash to get a Leap card. Many ordinary working class people will board a bus with a child and pay cash. They are the people who are hit hardest.

On the issue of the farming out of 10% of the services, I believe the NTA should protect the existing services. We can talk about whether we are obliged to go out to tender or otherwise. The reality is that 10% of the service is to be farmed out, including 100% of Bus Éireann in Waterford. That will have a huge impact and is a drive towards privatisation. In the past, the authority was never in favour of privatisation.

Will Mr. Fitzgerald outline his position on that issue?

The proposal to reduce taxi prices is causing havoc. On the one hand, Dublin Bus fares are being increased while, on the other, taxi prices are to be reduced under the latest proposals. I cannot understand the rational for this decision, especially as additional charges are being imposed on the taxi industry. Resetting meters and the other significant readjustments required cost money. While I accepted most of the recommendations of the taxi industry review group, I did not agree with all of them. This proposal will mean the taxi industry having to take another hit.

Mr. Fitzgerald referred to a number of major traffic projects. I have attended the consultations on the proposal for rapid bus routes. The cost of the proposed Swords route would be approximately €200 million. Has the possibility of investing this €200 million in existing bus services been considered? The proposed Swords route will also affect the business of private operators on the route. Has consideration been given to investing in improvements to existing routes, for example, in terms of set-down locations, road widening works, extending the routes and making them more bus friendly? I am not convinced the rapid bus proposals would provide value for money in the long run. I ask Mr. Fitzgerald to outline his position on the matter.

On the Luas extension to Broombridge, has consideration been given to extending the line further to Finglas? This option could be completed quicker than the original metro north proposal, which was to go through Ballymun, Finglas or Santry. Has the idea of extending the service from Broombridge to Finglas and subsequently to Dublin Airport been considered? It would not be as costly as metro north and could be done above ground, unlike some of the other proposals.

We have been given an assurance that the Jack Lynch tunnel would not be tolled. Does Mr. Fitzgerald have an opinion on the issue? Is the decision one for the local authority or will the National Transport Authority have an input in any such decision?

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

I will take the questions in reverse order. The National Roads Authority deals with the tolling of the tunnel.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Does the National Transport Authority have a role in the matter?

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

While I have a view on the issue, I have enough troubles without getting involved in that one.

An extension into Finglas is not on the cards at the moment. As the Deputy is probably aware, however, a study is being done on the options for the northside generally. I expect the study to be finished by April or May 2015. It is examining approximately 25 different options, including metro north, the DART option and quality bus corridors. The various options will be rejected one by one. While I am not sure if the option the Deputy has raised will form part of the final shake-up, I am fairly certain it will be examined as part of the study. The intention is to extend the Luas line to Broombridge. The study will examine what is possible with all the current infrastructure, including the possibility the Deputy raises.

On bus corridors and the bus rapid transport system, I assure the Deputy that any money that will be spent on that project will not be to the detriment of the bus service.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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It will not be at the expense of the current service.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

No. There is a €200 million price tag on the project.

It is a very effective solution and comes to 10% of the cost of the alternatives such as DART underground or metro north which are colossally expensive. When we first introduced the concept of quality bus corridors along the Airport Road and the N11 to Wexford, the Deputy will recall the opposition to them at the time. People told us they would never work and we would destroy every business along the route. They have been hugely successful, however. This is an advance on this. Some would say the super bus corridors are good alternatives to light rail or even heavy rail. I am not sure I would go along with that entirely. Where they have run, they are very successful and cost effective. A price of €200 million for such a system is relatively cheap compared to the prices we are quoted for alternatives.

The taxi advisory group is reviewing taxi fares and there will be probably be a recommendation for an increase. There has not been an increase since 2010. There was a possibility of an increase in 2012 but the taxi people felt that in the interests of competitiveness they did not want it.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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A document was circulated, which I have seen, stating the Minister was considering reducing fares.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

No. As part of this price review, there is an attempt to simplify the fares. Some fares are antiquated and do not make any sense anymore. Overall, the intention is there will be a review and my expectation is that it will recommend an increase. I have not seen anything to suggest otherwise.

The 10% of bus services put out to contract is not privatisation. I would not be happy with any suggestion that it should be privatised. It is an attempt to produce price comparators and see what the private sector can do with prices and competitiveness. The CIE companies can compete and may well win the competition. I expect they will compete and will be in with the same chance as every other operator. It is not privatisation. The staff’s concerns include the two-pay rights of transfer if the CIE companies do not win it. The objective is to pick routes that will provide us with an opportunity to assess the performance of CIE against the performance of private operators. The National Transport Authority, NTA, believes this should be done as there is a legal imperative on us to do it anyway. Unless we can assure the Government there is no private sector option available, then we are obliged to examine that.

There are discussions going on with the unions on this and will be held again in January. I hope we can go a long way towards meeting their concerns. I accept there are concerns that the whole of Waterford city’s operations are involved. However, one cannot divide Waterford into several sections. We were anxious to pick one provincial city where it could be tested. That is all we are doing - testing. The other routes are designed to be large enough to produce a measure but not large enough to banjax any other part of the system.

I wish we could have avoided any public transport fare increases. The authority’s objective is to encourage people to use public transport, especially people who cannot afford private cars. While I would love to say we could avoid a fare increase, it is not possible when the subvention from the Exchequer to the company is down by 30% and usage over the past several years is down by 17%. I accept, however, it is growing and is back up now by about 3%.

We are a regulator. We have not been put under pressure by anybody to do anything. We are an independent body and we have volumes of correspondence from companies and various interest groups on what should and should not be done. All I can say is that we are not happy, and the public is not happy, with the increases. I do not believe any of the companies are happy with the increases they got. It is a bit of a juggling act in terms of trying to weigh up what is needed by them against what we believe should be imposed on the public. The reality is that in view of the loss of subvention, the loss of passenger numbers and the increases in the costs of fuel, which have been a huge factor in recent years, although they are dropping again now but they buy their fuel forward, if we, as the regulator, did not concede increases we would not have a public transport system. In the interests of the people who cannot afford the alternative, it is hugely important that we-----

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Fitzgerald mentioned fuel prices dropping, and the Minister said the subvention was-----

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

Stabilising.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----stabilising. Does that mean there will not be any future increases, certainly in the short to medium term?

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

I think it is stabilised. We will always have increases, depending on the consumer price index, CPI, and everything else, but the need for big increases is beginning to stabilise now.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On another point, following on from what Deputy Ellis said, Mr. Fitzgerald mentioned €200 million for a bus corridor from Swords to the city centre. If possible could he explain the breakdown of that figure to those of us who believe that is a huge amount of money for a bus corridor?

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

The Chairman will be aware that the QBCs are bus corridors but they are not segregated corridors. People can dip in and out of them. However, they are hugely effective. The super version is a corridor which will be largely segregated, therefore, there are many groundworks and some property acquisition involved. It is a long corridor from Swords right into the city centre.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It will be separated from the-----

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

Yes, by and large.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thought it was merely putting down a white line or whatever. Obviously, there is a little more than that involved.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

Deputy Ellis will remember when people used to say that all that was involved was a bucket of whitewash and a paint brush. Unfortunately, it is much more complex than that.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Fitzgerald. I join in the thanks expressed to the retiring chief executive officer and the members of the board for the work they have done.

Mr. Fitzgerald knows well the part of the world I represent. For the National Transport Authority to be what it says on the tin, it should also encompass roads. I do not believe we will ever get an integrated transport network in Ireland while we have an agency responsible for roads, an agency responsible for local roads, namely, the local authority, and the National Transport Authority, which is responsible for practically everything that goes on in Dublin in terms of public transport infrastructure. While an effort has been made to merge the Rail Procurement Agency with the National Roads Authority, the National Transport Authority should be what it says on the tin, namely, responsible for all elements of transport and not just those areas within the M50 which it currently covers.

Regarding the areas outside the M50, I compliment the NTA's taxi and hackney sub-committee chaired by Pat Byrne. I met the members recently on an issue the members of this committee will be blue in the face hearing me raise. In terms of the part of the world from which Mr. Fitzgerald originates, if he were to apply for a hackney licence in Anglesborough he would be expected to know on what street in Glin is the post office or where in Foynes is Mount Trenchard.

A person collecting a hackney fare in Anglesboro, Kilbehenny, Ballyfaskin, Ballylanders or anywhere in that part of the country will probably need to know more about Mitchelstown, Cahir or Tipperary town than about Abbeyfeale or Athea. It is three years since I started raising this, and my jaws are worn at this stage.

To be fair, the hackney and taxi committee met me and listened to what I said. It will have its own deliberations on it. However, it never fails to bamboozle me that a person in Goleen in west Cork is expected to know where the AIB in Mitchelstown is simply because it happens to be in the same county. It is ludicrous. Whatever else Mr. Fitzgerald does in the next two and a half years he is in office, will he please try to get rid of that system? It assesses people in rural areas on their ability to deliver a public service based on this notional thing called a county, which we were left with by the British. If one is from Deputy O'Mahony's part of the world, near the town of Ballaghaderreen on the Roscommon border in east Mayo, one will be asked about Belmullet, Killala, Cong and other such places, to which one will probably never travel, but one will not be asked about the neighbouring parish on the other side of the river in County Roscommon. This matter is really beginning to irritate me.

Mr. Fitzgerald mentioned heavy rail. Limerick is by far the best-fed city in Ireland in terms of rail. It has connections to Galway, Nenagh, through the junction to Tipperary and out to Foynes. I believe two lines have potential. The first is the Foynes line for freight. Foynes is the deepest port in the country. Given that all transport is under the remit of the authority, the authority's relationship with ports is something it might examine. There is a rail corridor into the port of Foynes and it would be fantastic if it could be reopened for freight. The possibility of extracted ore, bulk meal and bulk fertilisers arriving into the port, not to mention bulk exports, represents a fantastic opportunity. I am aware that Íarnród Éireann is considering it but perhaps Mr. Fitzgerald would comment on that.

The other rail line that has potential is the Galway to Limerick line, which has been lampooned by some elements in the media. There are still speed restrictions on it, despite massive capital investment. It is a nice journey, but one would not want to be in a hurry. The bus from Galway will bring one to Limerick faster. That was not the original concept, which was to link Limerick to Sligo through Athenry and Mayo in the west. There are speed restrictions and the line is flooded at certain times of the year. The possibility of investment in the west of Ireland rail corridor to link Sligo to Limerick and Cork is reduced considerably due to the speed restriction that is maintained between Limerick and Athenry. Perhaps Mr. Fitzgerald will refer to that as well.

Finally, all politics is local and all transport is local as well. There has been a significant investment in cycling in city centres through bicycle rental schemes and so forth. Parallel with that there is a network of greenways across the country, whose focus has been on the tourism package and on recreational bicycle use. Does Mr. Fitzgerald envisage any relationship with those greenways in terms of the development of cycling in the future? Is the National Transport Authority satisfied that the cycle to work scheme is actually a cycle to work scheme?

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

In terms of the tax efficiency of the cycle to work scheme?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

It is hugely successful. It is probably one of the most successful measures that has been undertaken. I do not know the exact numbers, but it is huge and is growing.

With regard to the green routes, our priority is largely to get people onto bicycles in towns and cities. I was walking on a green route in Mayo not long ago. It is too successful, as far as I am concerned, because one cannot walk on it as there are so many cyclists on it.

We are conscious of the success of the routes but our priority is to get people out of cars and onto bikes or walking in towns and cities as much as we possibly can.

Deputy O'Donovan referred to certain rail routes. There is a real issue here and Deputy O'Donovan is right. I am familiar with the Foynes line and I will have a look at that. I am unsure whether there is an issue about usage but I will have a look at it anyway.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The issue is the investment that would be required to keep it open.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

Deputy O'Donovan referred to the rail corridor. The rail review I adverted to some minutes ago is a job we are doing along with CIE. CIE is not the only organisation involved; we are doing it too. We have people working with CIE and we are looking hard at it. Iarnród Éireann got into real trouble last year in terms of the amount of money available and in respect of the work it was expected to do. Some of the rail lines are heavily oversubscribed but some are heavily underutilised too. Let us consider the money end of it and the economics. There are probably several railway lines which, one could argue, should not be there any more. However, we are conscious of the social aspect of those lines. We are also mindful of the potential tourist revenues that might flow from those if there were developed in that way as well, something Deputy O'Donovan referred to as well. The line from Waterford to Limerick is heavily under-utilised but at the same time there is value in the route.

The job we are doing with CIE is precisely what Deputy O'Donovan was referring to. The idea is to examine the railway network, the cost of running it and what is required to keep it running as it is, on the assumption that we wish or can afford to keep it all running as it is. Some lines are so heavily under-utilised that they cannot cost-justify themselves any more. The objective is to try to make them cost-justify themselves.

Reference was made to licences. I was unaware of the issue of the role of licences. However, Deputy O'Donovan appears to be successful in the sense that he keeps raising the matter. Certainly, it has come to my consciousness in more recent times and it is being discussed. We have been talking to the taxi advisory group about it, as has Deputy O'Donovan. We have discussed it a good deal among ourselves. Our systems probably have not been the best in terms of how to deal with it up to now. They are far better now than they were. It is something I will keep a close eye on myself because I know the issues involved rather well.

There was a question about the National Roads Authority and ourselves. If Fred Barry from the NRA was before the committee he would probably tell the committee that the NRA should take over the National Transport Authority.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I imagine if we had the Railway Procurement Agency before the committee its representatives would maintain they had a role too.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

They would probably say the same. If the Government asked us to take on a certain function then, as public servants, we would probably agree to it. However, my view is that if something is working and it is not broken, then there is no reason to fix it.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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My question is whether Mr. Fitzgerald believes that to form a proper integrated transport system oversight for road, rail, bus and air, everything should be under one group?

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

I do not really. If we tried to bolt the NRA and all that it involves onto the NTA we could reach a critical mass whereby the organisation would fall over itself. There is a critical mass in all of these things. We have to trust the system, in this case, my working with Fred Barry and his people. We meet them all the time and we talk to them all the time. We have a good working relationship with them. I have never yet come across any issue in respect of which we could not discuss and come up with a solution. My attitude is that they are working fine and doing a good job and I believe we have done a good job too. We are close enough to each other and know each other well enough to be able to sort out any issues that might come up. I would be inclined to leave well enough alone.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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I was going to ask about Mr. Fitzgerald's achievements to date. He stayed in the private sector for a while. He was the first city manager of Dublin City Council. He has achieved a good deal in his time in public office. He is chairman of An Post. What does he hope to achieve? If Mr. Fitzgerald came back to this committee in two and a half years, what would he hope to be able to say he has achieved? Is Mr. Fitzgerald aware that there were other people looking for the same job to which he is being appointed?

That may be an unfair question to ask Mr. Fitzgerald.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

As chairman of the National Transport Authority.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

No, I do not know it. If I did, I would probably have rolled over and said, "Take it."

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Run the first bus across him or her.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

I am not sure there are many people queueing up to take some of these jobs because there is much responsibility and accountability. I will not say one lies awake at night worrying about it, but one does not take it lightly. I was asked by the former Minister, Mr. Noel Dempsey, to do the job. I never asked for any of these jobs and never made a telephone call asking for them. At the time I said "No" because I was doing many other things. However, he came back and said he thought I was uniquely qualified for the job as I came from a planning and transport background and that was the kind of person he was seeking. When one has one's ego stroked enough, one eventually gives in and I did take on the job and I am glad that I did. The authority has been more successful than I had envisaged. At the start I did not realise it would become a national organisation or that all of the other issues would be bolted on to it. Looking back, I am pleased. I said to the board members the other day that anybody who had been involved in it for the past five years should feel proud of what had been done. Much of the credit for this rests with the individual running it, the CEO, Mr. Gerry Murphy.

If I am back here in two and half years time, what is it that would I like to be able to say? I would like to be able to say the organisation was buzzing, that there was great activity and that many good people worked hard and derived much satisfaction from it. I would like to be able to say we had kept up the momentum and that we had the resources required. If I was to pick one issue - having been involved in transport, public transport, and managing cities for a long time - it would be the need to increase the usage of public transport - in this I include people walking, cycling and using motorbikes. We have tried for many years to increase the usage of public transport, but it is very difficult; it is a stubborn issue. While bus usage is improving, car usage is down a little. I would like to come back in two and a half years time and say we had achieved a significant modal shift, that it had not increased car numbers trying to access all city centres, not just Dublin, but that we had a public transport offering, in all of its shapes and forms, whether it be buses, trains, light rail, the DART, bicycles or motorbikes, similar to that on offer in any other European city, whereby people could get in and out easily and quickly without frustration and the congestion experienced in the past. That is achievable.

In the past five years I have been involved in Limerick and Grangegorman and it has been a question of survival and trying to keep the show on the road. The National Transport Authority is probably one of the few bodies that has taken on more work and increased its workload in that time. All of the others have been trying to stay alive. We are well placed to build on what is in place. The amount of money we have received, €450 million, is considerable. Our staff are well trained and motivated. The relationship we have with the company is difficult at times, but we have enough trust and confidence built between us. At the beginning I did not think the transport companies could understand the need for a regulator and why one should be imposed at our level, but they have become accustomed to it. There is mutual respect which may not have been the case in the past. I am happy to say I could come back in two and a half years time and say we had not only maintained the momentum but built on and increased it.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Fitzgerald envisage problems with the unions in implementing plans for the future?

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

The opening of 10% of bus routes is a critical issue for the unions and will continue to be for a while. It comes down to the extent to which they can accept that it is good for the industry. It is good for the bus companies and Dublin Bus is a good outfit. It is well managed and has done much, including reducing its costs.

When discussing fare increases I should have said the third leg of the stool was that the company had reduced costs by between 18% and 20%. It will be good for the unions if they manage to bite the bullet on this issue, show they can compete and perhaps win the routes back. We have a great deal of talking to do with them, as this is a difficult issue for them. However, I am not pessimistic about the possibility that we will be able to provide sufficient reassurance to get on with it.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I welcome Mr. Fitzgerald. I share the sentiments expressed by previous speakers about Mr. Gerry Murphy. I ask the Chairman to pass on to him the good wishes of members.
On 3 January The Irish Timesreported that €225 million had been spent on shelved Dublin transport projects. As an economist, I have a concern that these projects have a life of their own. Mr. Fitzgerald referred to the need for a regulator. What happens is that a decision is taken to proceed with a project because many hundreds of millions of euro have been spent on it. Why have we not heard of it? I hope the National Transport Authority will have a strict standard of investment appraisal to stop unilateral schemes from taking off. Letters issued to 5,000 home and business owners in Dublin city centre about compulsory purchase orders for the underground project. I do not believe the Oireachtas has ever discussed whether this project would be worthwhile. Nevertheless, it has taken on a life of its own.
The Heuston to Connolly rail link, to which Mr. Fitzgerald referred, will proceed in 2016. It appears to be an attractive project, given that the track and electronic signalling are in place and the tunnel is maintained with concrete sleepers. We have been paying for this line, if one likes, through the infrastructure budget. Running trains on it, therefore, is a good idea. The project will also open up Phibsboro, Cabra, the Phoenix Park, including Garda Headquarters and the zoo, and the nearby Army barracks and facilitate the running of trains from Drogheda to Newbridge, thereby linking the system. The budget appears to be low by comparison with that for some of the other projects mentioned. Given that the project has so much going for it, could it proceed quicker, especially as the track is ready? We could use the rolling stock located at the back of the Point Depot and for which we do not have a market, although I understand it may be gentrified for the Orient Express, or we could take rolling stock from a line that is not used much.
On tendering, it is the job of the regulator to introduce some novelty on this issue. Since the court cases involving Pat Nestor and others, the number of buses travelling in each direction between Dublin and Galway has increased to approximately 60 a day. The service has been a fantastic success. Mr. Fitzgerald referred to the development of public transport. There are approximately 59 more bus drivers working on the Dublin-Galway route than when the monopoly was still in place. I looked at an old timetable for the service which shows only one bus ran in each direction every day and it travelled through Mullingar. I have observed among my students that the bus service from Dublin to Galway is the preferred choice of young people. It operates 24 hours a day and is a major success that does not need a public subsidy. There are signs that a similar service could be provided on the Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Limerick routes. These options were not available before the establishment of the regulator because the Department of Transport had to look after the incumbent. The proposal for 10% competitive tendering could have dramatic results based on the experience of the Dublin-Galway service.
Deputy Dessie Ellis referred to the possibility of extending the Luas to Finglas. What about extending it to Shankill at the other end? This was the original intention, but it appears to have been lost somewhere along the way. Extending the line to Shankill would provide for integration and would not cost very much. Is it worth considering that idea?
Studies show that the quality bus corridors from Chapelizod and Palmerstown to Heuston Station and from Malahide and Stillorgan work very well. The average speeds achieved on these routes are faster those achieved on most heavy rail services and the DART line.

This needs to be brought out more for people to understand how successful these quality bus corridors, QBCs, are. Separation of the QBCs adds to cost and can make them inflexible. Other drivers do not tend to intrude into them. Sometimes one does not need a 24-hour QBC and many of them are not used on Sundays. Is there really a return on putting in barriers to separate them from the rest of the road? To give credit to motorists, the majority observe the rules governing QBCs.

An applicant for a taxi licence must do a written examination on geographical knowledge. We pointed out to the Minister recently in the Seanad that for a journey from Limerick city to nearby Birdhill, County Tipperary, the taxi driver would have been required to do two written examinations in two counties. Sat Nav would tell a taxi driver the directions. Are these examinations unnecessarily complex? As Mr. Fitzgerald knows, Mr. Paul Gorecki is a critic of the unnecessary barriers erected in the taxi industry, he feels, at the behest of encumbent taxi licenceholders against newcomers. He pointed to the high costs of providing a wheelchair accessible vehicle and requiring written examinations when Sat Nav would suffice. Does it matter for a taxi driver based in Ballaghaderreen, County Roscommon, where the Ulster Bank in Belmullet, County Mayo, is located? The more public transport we get, the more its share will grow. The encumbent operators, however, have been successful in devising ways of keeping new entrants out.

I wish Mr. Fitzgerald well in his renewed term. The Department of Finance guidelines on projects required that all projects involving funding over €20 million should be referred to the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA. The National Transport Authority, NTA, has accumulated nearly €225 million on projects. Many of these seem to have a life of their own, providing a living for the guys carrying out the projects but not translating into anything on the ground that people could use. This needs to be corrected. The NTA is correcting this legacy of the Celtic tiger where projects grew and grew. It is important to switch them off as the benefits will never be commensurate to the projects’ costs.

Mr. John Fitzgerald:

Senator Barrett has not said anything with which I disagree. The NTA, however, is really good at project appraisal, so much so that the Minister asks the authority to be involved in project appraisal if it is not. The authority has some good skilled people in this whole area. I accept there have been projects in the past which cost much public money but were not cost-justified in the long run.

We will be presenting a strategy to the Minister for the greater Dublin area, which accounts for 40% of the population, next year. The DART underground issue will come to a head sometime next year as it is time-limited. After a court action, notice for rail works must be served in a year and a half rather than the seven year limit in the past. While I cannot pre-empt the outcome of all of this, the two big ticket projects - DART underground and metro north - will not go ahead for certain.

Should one of them go ahead or not? I would not even attempt to second guess that process at this stage but decisions on them are imminent. We will produce a strategy for the Minister which will encompass the north Dublin study about which I spoke. It will encompass the DART study about which I spoke and will bring a range of these things under the umbrella of a strategy for greater Dublin that did not really exist before.

I do not think the Phoenix Park tunnel can be accelerated beyond 2016. We have pushed it as hard as we possibly can but 2016 is pretty fixed at this stage. It is very achievable.

Senator Barrett is absolutely right about the private buses. I would go so far as to say that the success of the private buses is a measure of how successful the Dublin Bus alternative could be if it is given a chance and allowed to run. There is no subsidy for any of the private bus operators bar a very small one that involves a small subsidy because it is in an area where there is no take up. Apart from that, all of the others operate without subsidy of any kind.

I was not conscious of the local taxi licences as a big issue or as an issue until very recently. I am much more conscious of it now and it is something on which I will keep a close eye. I take the points Senator Barrett made.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Fitzgerald.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Fitzgerald for coming before us today and engaging with us in a very open and transparent manner. I wish him well in his next two-and-a-half years in continuing the good work. I propose that we send a copy of the transcript of today's discussion to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport for his information and consideration. Is that agreed? Agreed. As there is no other matter or business, this meeting is adjourned until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 3 December 2014 when we will deal with petrol stretching.