Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I welcome the guests. In explanation, some Senators had to leave because there is a vote in the Seanad. I draw to the attention of the witnesses the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
The opening statement submitted to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Witnesses should turn off their mobile phones completely or switch them to flight or safe mode, as otherwise they interfere with the broadcasting equipment.
In May of this year, the first ever strategy for the further education and training sector was launched by the then Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn. The overall aim of the strategy is to develop a world-class integrated system of further education and training in Ireland which will promote economic development and meet the needs of all citizens. The strategy was developed by SOLAS, the further education and training authority, which was established in 2013 to develop and give strategic direction to the further education sector.
To brief the committee on the strategy and how it is being taken forward, I am pleased to welcome Mr. Paul O'Toole, Ms Fiona Hartley and Dr. Bryan Fields representing SOLAS, the further education and training authority, Mr. Michael Moriarty and Mr. Paddy Lavelle representing Education and Training Boards Ireland, Dr. Kara McGann representing IBEC and Dr. Peter Rigney representing ICTU. To commence our discussion, I invite Mr. O'Toole to make a presentation on behalf of SOLAS.

Mr. Paul O'Toole:

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for giving us an opportunity to contribute to today's discussion on the further education and training strategy for the period between 2014 and 2019. We look forward to contributing to the committee's discussion and addressing any questions that members may have about the role of SOLAS in the implementation of this strategy. SOLAS was established in October 2013 on foot of the Further Education and Training Act 2013, section 9 of which provides that SOLAS will prepare and submit a strategy in respect of further education and training to the Minister for Education and Skills every five years. The Minister may approve the strategy with or without modifications, or may refuse to approve the strategy. The first such strategy was submitted for consideration to the then Minister on 31 March 2014 in accordance with the agreed timeline for this initial proposed strategy. The Minister formally approved the strategy on 24 April 2014.

SOLAS is tasked with ensuring the provision of high-quality further education and training programmes which are responsive to the needs of learners and the requirements of a changed and changing economy. This mandate will be delivered in conjunction with all of our partners, particularly the education and training boards, which are our principal partners. For the purposes of the strategy, further education and training programmes are defined as comprehending up to level 6 of the national framework of qualifications and where funding is provided by SOLAS through the Vote of the Department of Education and Skills. These programmes embrace a vast range of courses which provide entry level, intermediate and technical skills as well as programmes which assist in personal development and support people who suffer various forms of disadvantage or disability. Apprenticeships are an example of effective further education and training provision. I am aware that the committee has examined the future approach to this aspect of provision.

The strategy provides a focus for the setting of further education and training investment priorities and a framework for the establishment and development of a strong further education and training sector. It aims to deliver a higher quality learning experience, leading to better outcomes for everyone who engages in further education and training. In turn, this will support economic development and increase social inclusion. SOLAS consulted widely with stakeholders in developing the strategy, which is set in the context of Government reform of public services. This consultation included representatives from employer bodies, higher and further education and training providers, community and other representative bodies, trade unions and, vitally, learners themselves. An evidence-based approach was applied though collaboration with the ESRI, which has carried out extensive research nationally and internationally. This research has been published by the ESRI in a companion document, Further Education and Training in Ireland: Past, Present and Future.

Strategic goals have been identified for the further education and training sector in five areas: skills for the economy, active inclusion, quality provision, integrated planning and funding, and the standing of further education and training. The goal under the heading of skills for the economy is that further education and training will address the current and future skills needs of learners, jobseekers and employees, meet the skills needs of enterprise and employers and contribute to national economic development. The goal under the heading of active inclusion is that further education and training provision will support the active inclusion of people of all abilities in society, with special reference to literacy and numeracy in accordance with the legislation which established SOLAS. The goal under the heading of quality provision is that further education and training will provide high-quality education and training programmes and will meet appropriate national and international quality standards. The goal under the heading of integrated planning and funding is that further education and training provision will be planned and funded on the basis of objective needs and evidence of social and economic impact. The goal under the heading of the standing of further education and training is to ensure a valued learning path leading to agreed employment, career, developmental, personal and social outcomes.

Following the approval of the strategy by the Minister of Education and Skills, a detailed whole-of-sector implementation plan that sets out over 50 actions required to implement the strategy has been developed in consultation with the Departments of Education and Skills; Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation; and Social Protection. SOLAS will lead on more than 50% of the actions which have been identified and the balance will be led by a number of Departments and other bodies. A large number of stakeholder organisations are being asked to contribute to the achievement of each action as appropriate. A new strategy implementation advisory committee has been established to review progress on the implementation of the strategy and provide advice to SOLAS. It is being chaired by the Department of Education and Skills and its membership includes representatives of each main group of delivery stakeholders. A mechanism to ensure the voice of learners is heard is being developed and will be implemented to ensure this vital group of stakeholders will have an opportunity to participate in the evolution of the further and education sector.

SOLAS will report progress on a quarterly basis to its board, to the Minister for Education and Skills and publicly. SOLAS acknowledges the fine work carried out by many providers in the development and evolution of the further education and training sector over many years. We believe these providers and the existing provision form a solid basis to move forward. Nevertheless, the objective evidence which is available points to the need to refocus and reinvigorate the sector. Further education and training programmes give many people, most of whom are adults, an opportunity to develop their potential in a manner which best supports the achievement of their personal learning goals and their preferred approach to learning. A coherent plan that seeks to synergise the many strands which encompass further education and training today has an ethos of continuous improvement and is based on objective, non-partisan evaluation of how individual further education and training programmes achieve against their stated objectives, deliver better outcomes and experiences for learners and significantly enhance the contribution of further education and training to the economy and society. The principal challenge for all the stakeholders in further education and training is to drive forward the implementation of this strategy. A sea change is required in how we value, promote, deliver, assess and continually improve further education and training programmes. SOLAS intends to play a full and constructive part in this implementation.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I ask Mr. Michael Moriarty of Education and Training Boards Ireland to make his presentation.

Mr. Michael Moriarty:

As the Chairman and the members of the committee will be aware, the intention behind the establishment of the education and training boards and SOLAS in 2013 was to provide for better co-ordination and delivery of education and training, leading to the development of a world-class integrated system of further education and training in Ireland. Under the Education and Training Boards Act 2013, the role of each education and training board is to "plan, provide, co-ordinate and review the provision of education and training ... in its functional area". As we have heard, the role of SOLAS is to have responsibility for the strategic co-ordination and funding of the further education and training sector. The further education and training strategy that was mentioned by Mr. O'Toole, which was published in May 2014, provides a roadmap for this process. As the main statutory authorities delivering further education and training, education and training boards and their representative body, Education and Training Boards Ireland, have significant roles to play in realising that strategy.

A key part of the successful implementation of the strategy will be the provision of the capacity and resources to manage the delivery of training and education efficiently. If the strategy is to fulfil its mission, education and training boards need appropriate structures and supports and adequate resourcing. The detailed implementation plan for the further education and training strategy sets out how the education and training boards will assist in the fulfilment of the goals identified in that strategy. I would like to mention some of the 13 actions, from the total of 53 identified in the plan, that relate to Education and Training Boards Ireland and the education and training boards themselves. We will be responsible for modifying further education and training provision in accordance with the skills needs of industry; reflecting direct employer involvement in designing courses; providing education and training in entrepreneurship, which is something we hope to do next year; developing appropriate further education and training interventions and supports for active inclusion; ensuring an effective support service that identifies education and training needs and matches them to the needs of industry is available for all learners who need it; developing a co-ordinated programme of continuing professional development; developing a further education and training customer charter; ensuring there is effective continuing professional development; developing partnerships with further education support services, curriculum development units and other agencies and bodies locally and nationally; and devising and implementing an integrated guidance strategy in association with SOLAS.

Education and Training Boards Ireland has identified a number of concerns regarding possible impediments or roadblocks to the achievement of these actions. While I am sure these issues will be addressed, it is important to place details of them on the record. A strategy is needed to address salary scales and career structure development for the tutors who deliver further education. They need a proper career structure in this sector. The further education and training sector now stands shoulder to shoulder with the first, second and third level sectors, but it needs the same focus. It needs to be professionalised. The professionalisation of the role of tutors is one of the key ways of doing this. This sector also needs a capital budget for building improvement works, as it is the only one of the four sectors I mentioned that does not have such a budget. While the recruitment moratorium does not affect front-line services, it certainly affects the support staff we have. That is critical, as is the guidance strategy. A proper, effective and well-resourced adult guidance service needs to be in place to make sure the most marginalised people, including those in the most difficult circumstances and the long-term unemployed, are directed in the right direction in terms of their future skills needs.

One of the means by which SOLAS supports the delivery of integrated further education and training by the education and training boards is by allocating funding to those boards.

This funding includes the cost of running the former training centres which have transferred to the ETBs which are constituted from the old VECs and the FÁS training division. They are providing integration of further education and training at local level within the catchment area. This is a significant advantage in terms of customer identification with education and training boards.

We continue to hold high-level meetings with our colleagues in SOLAS and there is a collaborative approach at national level in respect of the implementation plan for the further education and training strategy. The putting in place of funding agreements ensures that ETBs retain ownership over their own local planning but within national guidelines while ensuring there is consistency in quality across the regions.

Underpinning the further education and training, FET, strategy is a commitment by ETBs and SOLAS to establishing an appropriate advisory infrastructure so that provision is informed directly by employers and responds to emerging needs at both national and local level as well as a commitment to develop and provide new courses and programmes that are quality assured and adhere to the relevant awarding body quality system. There is also a commitment to advance the recommendations of the apprenticeship review and to establish new models of work-based learning within further education and training, FET. Education and Training Board Ireland, ETBI and ETBs will continue to collaborate with SOLAS to achieve the aims of the FET strategy and to advance the actions listed in the implementation plan. However, it is imperative that adequate resourcing and funding are put in place to allow ETBs to fulfil both those commitments and their mandate as set out in the Further Education and Training Boards Act 2013.

In conclusion, I thank the members of the committee for their invitation to discuss the provisions contained in the FET strategy in which ETBI and our member ETBs are centrally involved. My colleague and I will be happy to respond to questions from members.

Dr. Kara McGann:

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to address it on an important issue for the business sector. IBEC is pleased to have been a member of both the further education and training strategy advisory group and the group that is currently overseeing its implementation. Therefore, we are very familiar with the detailed planning that has gone into the development of the strategy. We also the welcome the commitment of the strategy's architects, notably SOLAS, to engage with business.

This is an extremely ambitious and challenging strategy that seeks to rebuild the entire further education and training sector. It gives priority, quite correctly in our view, to the requirement to provide people with the skills and education to enable them to compete for sustainable work. However, its success will be ultimately judged by how it delivers. All too often, the reconfiguration of institutions and policy rhetoric at national level bear little relationship to what is happening on the ground. We need to be realistic about the significant implementation challenges. This is a complex and diverse sector that has not, it is generally agreed, received the attention it deserves from policymakers in the past. We are unable to comment in detail on a 158-page strategy document in a five minute input. Therefore, I will highlight where we believe the most significant challenges exist from a business perspective.

The strategy quite correctly emphasises the importance of aligning further education and training with the skills needs of employers. Local labour market demand is more likely to be anticipated through intensive interaction between education training providers and the enterprise. As the OECD has pointed out, there is an inevitable tendency for vocational programmes rooted in education institutions to develop their own dynamic, independent of the world of work and unresponsive to rapid change in the needs of the economy. To ensure that the FET system is not supply driven, it is critical that the business community is strongly represented at both national and, more particularly, at local level.

Apart from the local labour market intelligence which employers bring, they can also provide a specific perspective on the type of employability skills that can be developed through the curriculum. For example, in recruiting unemployed people for entry level positions we know that employers want evidence that candidates have the aptitudes and soft skills that will enable them to learn what their job entails, adapt to the company's organisational culture and get on with colleagues. However, we should not underestimate the complexities and challenges of connecting with a highly heterogeneous business sector in which almost 47% of total employment is provided by firms with fewer than 50 employees. This is a business environment that is constantly changing. In order to engage meaningfully, we need integrated regional structures which bring together employers, FET, higher education, enterprise development agencies and the local Intreo service.

IBEC is constantly struck by how the different components of our education system work in silos. FET has a critical function in providing access and progression routes for individuals to continue their studies at institutes of technology or universities. The committee will be aware that the Higher Education Authority is also working on the development of regional clusters of different types of education institutions. The clusters have the potential to play a key role in the development of industry networks and to provide clear regional pathways for individuals who want to progress through the education system, but we do not hear the voice of further education and training sufficiently in these discussions. Given the economic circumstances, it is not surprising that a lot of attention in the development of the strategy was on the relationship between FET and labour market activation. However, the sector has a critical role in meeting the needs of people in employment.

Ireland's economic recovery depends on the skills and flexibility of its labour market. There is a particularly important cohort of individuals currently in employment which is precarious or where skills are becoming obsolete. They also require upskilling or retraining if they are to retain their jobs and their employer is to remain viable or competitive. It is important that provision is made for them. To meet the needs of diverse learners with diverse schedules it is important that a range of programme delivery methods are offered. This will offer benefits in terms of costs and flexibility of access, but will also require significant preparation in advance by those delivering the programmes. As important is the flexibility around when courses are delivered and examined it does not always suit to have strict adherence to an academic year and so flexibility is also required in this regard.

Last July, IBEC provided evidence to the joint committee on the new apprenticeship model. At the time we referred to the reality that apprenticeships and vocational education in general do not enjoy the parity of esteem in a society that defines educational achievement in terms of CAO points. This strategy offers an opportunity to address this challenge. Its successful implementation will enable FET providers to equip learners with the necessary skills to take up sustainable, high quality and fulfilling employment. In this way, it will become a highly sought-after education option for both young people and adult learners. I thank members of the joint committee for the opportunity to present IBEC's views on this important initiative.

Dr. Peter Rigney:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to make a presentation. Like my colleague from IBEC, I made a presentation last July on the question of apprenticeships. In ICTU's view, one of the key components of the strategy would be the development of a broadened and modern apprenticeship model for our economy. This is the responsibility of the newly established apprenticeship advisory council which will be launched next week.

It is worth noting that we have just emerged from our first European semester since our exit from the troika and we have received a recommendation on the development of a modernised apprenticeship system. I suspect we will be given a recommendation along these lines in the country-specific recommendations for next year. At European level, the EU Council has called for open pathways and parity of esteem between vocational education and training and general higher education. This call is articulated in the Copenhagen declaration and is based on research conducted over a decade by CEDEFOP, the European Centre for Research and Vocational Training. Many of the issues we face in Ireland are in fact Europe-wide issues.

The priorities of the further education sector in Ireland must reflect the priorities of the ESF which is one of the major sources of funding. These priorities are, first, to combat long-term unemployment by ensuring that individuals can access employment via in-demand skills development, together with improving the qualification levels of lower skilled longer-term unemployed; second, to support those young people not in education, employment or training, NEETs, to participate in programmes which include work experience with labour market relevance; and, third, to increase social inclusion by targeting interventions with appropriate ongoing supports. These are reflected in the three drivers of training developed by SOLAS which are the labour market, social inclusion and lifelong learning.

I was a member of the committee that helped to draw up the SOLAS training strategy and I am fully committed to it as part of what I consider to be collective responsibility. Each of the three areas I mentioned will have differing metrics, reflecting the divergent needs of their client populations. One of the first tasks of SOLAS has been to put credible metrics in place, in co-operation with all the stakeholders.

As other speakers said, the further education sector now represents the ETBs and the FÁS training centres and in our view, it should absorb what is best in both bodies and cultures in terms of corporate culture and operational models. A key aspect of the system which is being developed must be the development of work-based learning including the development of tools for monitoring the work-based element of the learning. This will need to go beyond the informality which surrounds much of education-based work experience. Perhaps part of the price we pay for a modern quality apprenticeship system is a lessening of the requirement for work experience in other areas of the education system, lessening the requirement on employers in exchange for the rolling out of apprenticeships in other areas.

It has frequently been said that SOLAS will be to the ETBs what the HEA is to the universities and the institutes of technology. We agree that there is a need for a national body to steer a national policy. One of the strongest aspects that SOLAS brings to bear is its evaluative skills and its skills in labour market forecasting contained in its skills and labour market research unit. One of the key issues for the sector in the future will be labour market contact and labour market relevance.

An underpinning value of further education must be the credibility of the awards. Awards are like currency; they are pieces of paper which, of themselves, are intrinsically worthless but on which society conveys a worth by virtue of what they signify. Citizens must be certain that the standards set by QQI are consistent. We must also be satisfied that when problems arise, as they have done in the past, they are fully examined and lessons are learned.
As stated, a problem faced in the further education sector is one of parity of esteem. This has been identified at European level. Frankly and simply put, this means some FE courses are not regarded as highly as higher education courses, even though the FE courses concerned might have better completion rates and employment outcomes than the HE courses. The challenge for Ireland is to overcome this problem of perception and to name and challenge the organisational behaviour which fosters this perception.
If there is one thing I want to stress in my presentation, it is that the overwhelming issue for us is the development of a modernised apprenticeship system.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today to discuss the strategy. I have a few comments on which I would like them to come back. Everybody touched on the importance of ensuring the further education sector is matched in relation to the employment side of its objectives to ensure it meets future demand. On the apprenticeship side, the most recent figures show that between painters-decorators and bricklayers, there was a total of ten apprentices in the system and we expect that sector to grow over the coming years. It is relevant to the apprenticeship strategy but it signifies the difficulties in the system in terms of ensuring it meets future demand and that it is not constantly trying to play catch up. I would be interested to hear any further comments from the witnesses in relation to how they believe the further education strategy for the next five years, as published, can do that and what are the chances we can ensure it will work in a way that ensures it meets demand as opposed to being driven by supply, as was the case in the past.

There was a two point increase in the previous budget in the pupil-teacher ratio in the further education sector. I would be interested to hear feedback from the witnesses on any feedback they have had from within the sector as to the impact it has had and whether that is something which needs to be addressed to ensure the five year strategy can meet its objectives.

Mr. Moriarty mentioned the issue of guidance. I would be interested to hear the views of all the witnesses in relation to the importance of proper guidance and on people entering the system and on ensuring people take up courses and go down avenues which appropriately meet their needs. There are big gaps in the system and if the new strategy is to work properly, it cannot be done without a proper guidance provision system. I would be interested in the witnesses' thoughts on the adequacy of the current set up and what exactly we require to complement the objectives of the strategy.

I would be interested to hear the views of the witnesses from SOLAS and ETBI on the amalgamation of the training centres with the ETBI, on how that is going and if there are challenges there which remain to be met and how that fits into the achievement of the strategy's objectives. I would also be interested to hear the views of the witnesses in relation to the cap in place for post-leaving certificate courses, which needs to be addressed, the impact it is having on the ability of the sector to meet the requirements on it and what needs to happen there.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of points to make. It is an ambitious programme and, with any ambitious programme, there is a need for not only for a shift in terms of people's attitudes, but for investment. One of the investments, for instance, deals with the requirements of business and the STEM subjects if we are to provide the best possible opportunity and education for those who are availing of courses. Are the witnesses confident that the resources are there? What are the resources required to bring all of the centres and courses, in particular, the STEM courses, that have been identified up to a level comparable with international standards? That is in terms of resources for labs and so on.

There is also a resource issue in terms of teachers. Deputy McConalogue mentioned the PLCs. There has been a drop-off in numbers because of the pupil-teacher ratio. If we are to deliver the best possible opportunity, there is a requirement that classes are not too full and that those being trained or taught get the best possible outcome from the course of which they are availing rather than being in overloaded classes, which is a factor in the rest of the education system. What is happening in relation to delivering courses, which are not oversubscribed? I know of some colleges which have taken on extra pupils over and above the numbers required to ensure that the colleges can survive.

I refer to the change from FÁS centres to education and training board centres. I do not think utilisation of many of the centres is at its fullest. We have centres which have fully fitted out training rooms for electricians, plumbers and so on. I tabled parliamentary questions recently and found some have been vacant for a long time. One of the questions I asked was about a course I was promised was due to start, which leads me on to a follow up question. Will the courses be delivered by directly employed trainers from the ETBs or will they be subcontracted out? There is a danger that a course could be subcontracted out to an organisation which is for profit rather than for education and that there would be difference in the ethos and possibly the outcome.

The question of the move towards working all year round would be a major one for Dr. Rigney, who represents ICTU, which would include the TUI and other unions. What is the current position? Have there been negotiations with the unions, the teachers and the trainers or is it just one of those ideas put out which, all of a sudden, ends up on top of us very quickly without the background work being done? It would be a huge change for some teachers, although others are trainers and work all year round anyway. If we amalgamate both sectors, there will be major difficulties, including human resource difficulties, union difficulties and difficulties for people who have had a different holiday arrangements, etc., and who would have to change their lives to cater for children and so on. Is that an issue currently or is it just one of those things that is in the strategy?

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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We had to go for a vote in the Seanad, so I apologise for not being here earlier. Funnily enough, the vote was on the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, so it was very important that we were there.

I wish to ask a very general question. I have written and spoken quite a lot about the apartheid nature of education as evident in the differentiation between university education and vocational education. The move back to vocational education has been spoken about by Deputy Fitzmaurice. It is important that people have learned skills.

I have read the documentation and keep hearing about education and training boards, SOLAS, the Higher Education Authority, institutes of technology and Quality and Qualifications Ireland. Can the delegation tell me about the range of apprenticeships? What are the plans to expand? In Germany, there are approximately 138 apprenticeship forms. Here we have approximately 25, many of which are related to the construction area. In what direction do the delegates intend to expand apprenticeships beyond construction, plumbing and electrical work? I do not see lists of these. There have been many reports, including from the Forestry Service of Ireland and heritage and conservation bodies. There have been many suggestions on apprenticeships. Have any of those come to the fore? Are any apprenticeships being expanded or put into place? There is a lot more to be done than just electrical work and plumbing, which of course are terribly important. With all the institutes of technology, Quality and Qualifications Ireland and education and training boards, it is like a dance. What are the names of the apprenticeships? Where are they? Where are the successful ones? Where does the delegation intend to bring them about? Where is the enlargement?

I am a great believer in vocational education. It is the way forward. The idea that the BA is the only way forward in education is crazy. People need skills and want to be able to do things; it is not that a BA does not allow one to do things. The vocational education sector was the first sector in which I taught as a teacher. Vocational education is a marvellous method of education but we seem to have lost it along the way towards academic education. We have heard many people stating they just want to get to university but sometimes vocational education is appropriate. Vocational education is now returning as a means of training young people, especially those who have been unemployed for a long time.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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There is a vote in the Seanad so I will allow the delegates to respond immediately. While the matters raised by Senator O'Donnell are not strictly related to our topic today, does anyone have an update for her?

Mr. Paul O'Toole:

With regard to apprenticeships specifically, the Minister for Education and Skills has indicated she will launch the new national apprenticeship council next week. SOLAS will provide secretarial support to the group, which will be a national group. We will also work in conjunction with the Higher Education Authority and all the players in the system. One of the first acts of the group will be a call to enterprise to put forward its suggestions on where it can usefully provide apprenticeship-type opportunities.

To get to the heart of the Senator's question, people learn in different ways. In the broadest sense, further education and training recognises that people start from different places and can best develop their potential if supported to do so in the right way. The system works when a person can learn required skills on the job in the work environment, supported by State investment in the formal aspects of the training or education. In the broadest sense, that is what the new apprenticeship council will seek to do. There is an existing range of 25 apprenticeships, which have been very successful down the years. There will be a call to expand that.

Apprenticeship in Ireland represents a statutorily based function and is defined as such. It is interpreted differently in different countries around Europe, and we know that. We have developed a range of traineeships that have the feature of on-the-job learning, supported by State off-the-job learning. There is a range of other disciplines, including secretaryships. To get the core of the point, there is an opportunity associated with, and a value attached to, increasing the range of combined dual-approach learning programmes on and off the job. We expect that the new call to action in this regard will yield benefits.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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There were 76 submissions to the former Minister from sectors all over Ireland, including the forestry and conservation sectors, and also those associated with electronics, tax and business. What is the position of these? Will they be used by the national apprenticeship council? Where is the expansion? What are the areas of expansion beyond plumbing and electrical apprenticeships?

Mr. Paul O'Toole:

There are many potential areas of expansion. As I stated, the Minister intends to launch the implementation of the apprenticeship review next week.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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If the Senator wishes to vote in the Seanad, we can return to this afterwards. Deputy Conaghan may ask his questions after we hear some more replies.

Mr. Paul O'Toole:

With regard to Deputy McConalogue's questions and the link between further education and training and the economy, the link is at the heart of it. The two central planks of the further education and training strategy involve combining an approach that recognises the need to develop skills for the economy — enterprise-facing skills — with active inclusion, therefore providing routes for all citizens. I emphasise that because, frequently during the development of the strategy, people pigeonhole further education and training into one category or the other. It either has social inclusion at its heart or it has enterprise at its heart, and never the twain shall meet. In our view, the distinction is inaccurate. If we are clear on the types of skills people need to get employment or increase their employability, if we are to recognise that everybody is starting from a different place on their journey and if we are true to our mission in this regard, we will link active inclusion with skills for the economy more accurately.

The Deputy also raised the issue of apprenticeships and the fall-off therein, particularly in a number of trades. It is true that there has been a fall-off. Apprentice intake peaked in 2006 and 2007 and then fell off a cliff with the decline in the economy and the construction sector generally. There were a considerable number of apprentices stuck in the system because they were not able to complete their programmes. There was considerable investment in supporting those apprentices who were stuck to get over the line with some degree of success. What we are observing is that, overall in respect of the existing set of 25 apprenticeships, recruitment this year has increased significantly over last year. It is up approximately 47% year on year. It is not where it needs to be. The long-range needs of the economy require a greater intake of apprentices, including in the types of disciplines the Deputy raised. We are working with the Construction Industry Federation of Ireland and others to try to bring forward responses to that.

With regard to guidance, we agree completely that good guidance for people who are unemployed or wish to upskill or re-skill, through the Intreo system initially for the unemployed and then through the guidance service within education and training boards, has a value. The strategy identifies the need to improve those services.

The Deputy asked about the amalgamation process involving SOLAS and the education and training boards. It is ongoing. In a formal sense, 40% of the old FÁS provision transferred to the education and training boards on 1 January this year. The balance of 60% transferred on 1 July. With regard to the logistical aspect, that has worked very well to date. The education and training boards invested a lot of time with SOLAS to make sure the transition worked. At the heart of our thinking in this regard is the view that we would not drop the ball with learners during the process. We have met the education and training boards regularly, including this morning, to ensure we are co-operating fully to advance the amalgamation and the work on the strategy overall.

With regard to Deputy Ó Snodaigh's point on investment, including in STEM and other courses, we are keeping all course provision under constant review. One of the tools we will deploy to ensure that this works and that the State is getting a return on its investment is systematic evaluation, combined with an evidence-based approach to future decision making. It is not just a case of what we think as we will bring a structure and rigour to the assessment of all further education and training programmes, of whatever hue and for whatever purpose.

During 2014 the State has directly invested €640 million through SOLAS and €186 million through the Department of Education and Skills in post leaving certificate course provision. This is a combined investment of approximately €826 million, approximately one quarter of which goes towards income support for participants who need it. It is a significant investment and we want to optimise its use so it is used efficiently. A total of 91.5% of the SOLAS budget is a programme budget, principally in the form of direct grant aid to education and training boards and others. There are also a number of national programmes. The overhead part of this is approximately 3.7%, and we are also responsible for discharging the pensions of former staff members of FÁS and AnCO, which absorbs approximately 4.8%. The State is making quite a significant investment and we want to ensure it is optimised and that we provide value for money.

The point made on the utilisation of workshops is quite correct. In tandem with the fall-off in the construction sector in particular, many workshops which had been geared up towards the peak were under-utilised, but this is starting to turn. During the period when we did not have the flow of new apprenticeships and new courses, we tried to provide workshop-based upskilling and reskilling. We tried to manage the utilisation over this period. I expect that as the economy turns we will start to have full utilisation.

Mr. Peter Rigney:

Deputy McConalogue asked about the number of apprentices in particular disciplines. The defining feature of the apprenticeship system is that the number of apprentices in the system is the number of boys and girls whom employers wish to employ. Therefore, it is protected against oversupply. The working committee on apprenticeship was faced with two difficult issues which we could not solve. In an ideal world there should be a system whereby somebody employs a base stock of apprentices to prevent an under-correction. However, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform would have kittens if this were brought any further. Conversely, at the height of the cycle there should be a way set a maximum, but it would have taken a brave person to tell a builder at the height of the boom that he or she could not take on any more carpenters or joiners because there would be a surplus. One would probably have ended up in the High Court in a case taken on the right to earn a living. These issues exist.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh asked about the school year. I am on the board of Skillnets, which is the training networks initiative. It deals mainly with private-sector trainers. Very little training is done in July, August and December. To the best of my knowledge there are no live proposals to change the school year. The differences may be more apparent than real. An issue that might arise is why every course must start in September. Perhaps some courses could start in January. At present, if somebody is made unemployed in January, he or she must wait until September. This issue might need to be resolved.

If I can be so bold as to make a suggestion to the committee, if it wants to go into detail and lift the bonnet on the sector, it should invite Seamus McGuinness and Dr. John Sweeney, both of whom have written reports, to come before it. Seamus McGuinness was the lead researcher on the ESRI report which was mentioned, and Dr. John Sweeney produced a report for the National Economic and Social Council. They would give the committee two sometimes different views, which is a good thing, on how the sector works.

Mr. Michael Moriarty:

Deputy McConalogue mentioned a fear that this would be supply-driven and that courses or programmes would not be sufficiently demand-led. There is huge potential and an opportunity for education and training boards to have a statutory sub-committee which represents local employers as well as the local providers, which are the education and training board and training and programme staff. This would mean direct communication between employers, local industry and trainers. In this way there would be direct engagement in each of the 16 catchment areas between the training centres or further education colleges and employers. This would be very beneficial. In 1997 plans were drawn up to do this through an adult education sub-committee. It would be one way to address the issue, and would assure everybody that the courses would remain demand-led.

The issue of guidance is important. Education and Training Boards Ireland has repeatedly campaigned for proper guidance, particularly for the adult learning community. These people are vulnerable and marginalised. They may have lost a job, and perhaps their confidence, and are disoriented to a large extent. They need direct support and guidance at a very vulnerable period in their lives. This is why it is imperative to have a proper and effective guidance service, which we do not have at present as it has vastly reduced resources.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh mentioned resource issues, and perhaps he was speaking about training centres. Post leaving certificate colleges are managed in the same way as second level schools, which is a crazy system. They have never moved along from the structure and funding model of second level schools. In 2008, just before the crash, we had agreed with trade unions and the Department to have a new structure which would be relevant to post leaving certificate course colleges. These colleges are populated by adults and not by children. We need to re-examine the establishment of a relevant support structure in these colleges which meets the needs of their clients.

In the editorial I wrote for the most recent edition of ETBI news I raised the issue of working all year round. We now have under the same bodies - the ETBs - training centres, which are effectively open and providing training and support 52 weeks of the year, and post leaving certificate course colleges, which are open for considerably less time than this as they are closed for July, August and part of September. This needs to be addressed. We have had informal discussions with the Teachers' Union of Ireland on this, and the former president, who is now a Senator, has raised the issue with me. Teachers' unions are facing a dilemma in the sector. If we are all there for the benefit of our clients and students we must examine year-round provision which meets the needs of the people we serve. I seek engagement with teachers' unions, the Department of Education and Skills and SOLAS to see if we can move from what is a school year to year-round provision in our colleges, as we have in our training centres.

Dr. Kara McGann:

Deputy McConalogue asked about meeting future demand for skills. We see employer intelligence at regional and local level as very important. This should involve education and training boards, employers, Intreo and higher education. Small employers in particular have skills requirements but they do not tend to have the bandwidth to engage at multiple levels. Having everybody around the table would assist with this. To echo what Mr. O'Toole mentioned on the false dichotomy between labour market skills and life skills, from an employer point of view both have value, and we see both types of skill as hugely important in an approach to lifelong learning and future skills demands.

Mr. Paddy Lavelle:

Deputies McConalogue and Ó Snodaigh asked about raising the pupil-teacher ratio for post-leaving certificate courses. The pupil-teacher ratio increased to 19:1, which had an impact on the number of teachers available to teach in post leaving certificate colleges. It reduced the capacity of a college to be as flexible as it might have been. The effect was felt in the provision of courses with smaller numbers, as the colleges had to ensure the numbers were as high as possible. The cap is a separate issue, and probably less of an issue this year than it was previously, as the numbers coming to post leaving certificate courses this year were lower throughout the country than they had been in previous years. This is for a number of reasons.

There are many changes in respect of Intreo as well as other external factors that changed the profile of the students coming to us at post leaving certificate level.

Reference was made to the impact on the pupil-teacher ratio. It reduces the number of teachers available to the colleges. Principally, this has the effect of reducing flexibility in terms of provision and the number of courses we can put on. In general, the post leaving certificate courses reflect the skills needs in the areas they serve. Generally speaking, the courses are aimed at providing skills that are needed in the economy. Obviously, changes in recent years have affected us and certain courses have become almost redundant, especially those related to the construction sector, as was the case in respect of apprenticeships. This has affected the colleges and resulted in a surplus of teachers in some areas. That is the type of thing that has happened. In general, the post leaving certificate colleges are thriving. Reference was made to the fact that they are oversubscribed. Most of them are still oversubscribed to a large extent.

Deputy McConalogue asked a question about amalgamation. From the point of view of the education and training boards, the amalgamation has gone far more sweetly than we had anticipated. We had many fears around it. Most people facing any kind of major shift or merger would have big fears about such a change. Thanks to our work with SOLAS in respect of the training centres coming across and through our work with the other vocational education committees prior to the amalgamation, many of the problems were anticipated. That does not mean we are without problems. This is a long, slow burner. The first further education and training strategy runs until 2019 and we do not expect to have everything done in the next two or three years. We are engaged in a long process to ensure the system we operate provides the best service possible to the learners with whom we engage.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We will take some more questions.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I welcome the delegations. It was interesting to listen to their presentations. I wish to comment briefly on the sector. The strength of the sector lies in its history, which goes back deep into the 19th century, particularly in continental Europe. Since then, the challenge of the continuum between the individual skills and work has been tackled by educational providers very successfully, whether by direct educational apprenticeships or through other preparatory courses. This is at the heart of its success, and something that has succeeded for so long gives great confidence and competence to the providers today. The tradition and history of something is important to its current success and credibility, and the sector has credibility. One need only consider the colleges in Ballyfermot, Inchicore, Crumlin and Coolock. Young people who never had a sniff of further education are flocking to these colleges. They are overcrowded and students cannot get into them because the word on the ground is that if a person goes there he will get something out of it, not something vague but something practical and real. Of course there will be certificates, garlands and presentations, but there is something real as well. This is the secret of it. It is a secret that has been well kept for a long time. There has been an extraordinary level of courses. Let us consider Ballyfermot College of Further Education, for example, which has rewritten an entire genre of film-making from scratch. Other colleges have had equally successful experiences in different categories of the world of work.

There is an equation involving the individual and work and how we bridge the gap and provide a safe crossing over the chasm. This is what these initiatives have done. It is extraordinary but it is not properly understood by people who write about it. I happen to know a little about it because I was in it for a long time. I hated leaving it and I might to go back to it. Anyway, this has opened up a world for people from various social classes who, at 17, 18 or 19 years of age, had never been inside a college, and it has transformed their lives. It is an extraordinary development. Part of its success is that when something has history behind it, it gives a person two things: competence and confidence. The talk of changing structures is peripheral. The message is the same even if the way of delivering it has been modified a little. It is simply technological change, but the basics never change. There are human beings and there is the desire to work and be productive. That much is eternal and never changes. I commend the work that the deputation is doing because it is undervalued, but it is very valuable.

Hildegarde Naughton (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the deputation. There was a vote in the Seanad so I offer my apologies if the witnesses have already answered some of these questions. My first question is for SOLAS and relates to labour market forecasting. I am keen to hear the views on how it currently works. I understand the SOLAS labour market research unit carries out forecasting. Is SOLAS satisfied with the current abilities of the structure and how it is resourced? Following the crash, many skilled people were left unemployed and without the necessary skills to bridge the gaps that existed. I do not remember any statutory or semi-state body shouting out that this was going to happen. Fundamentally, it is a question about predicting the labour market. Are we in a better position now? Are we setting out the structures whereby such an occurrence can be pre-empted or groups can forecast where the labour market is going? That involves linking with business. Where do we stand currently in that regard? It is important that the same mistakes are not made again.

The IBEC deputation referenced the OECD and the inevitability of vocational programmes in educational institutions becoming self-fulfilling as well as how they are not actually responding to business needs. Where exactly do we stand on that? Do we have sufficient business presence with regard to our labour market needs?

Reference was made to re-skilling. For example, following the crash, the skills of electricians were no longer required to the same extent. I know people who changed course completely but got little support from the State with regard to a new career and re-skilling. These issues need to be examined. Germany has 350 recognised occupations covered by apprenticeship schemes, whereas here, according to my last recollection, the corresponding figure was 30 recognised trades which come under the relevant schemes. What is the position with regard to this and occupations covered under the apprenticeship schemes?

I will outline one example involving a young man who came to me. He wanted to a course that happened to be in welding. He was Galway-based but no training course was available there and he had to go to Ballina. He was enthusiastic about it and went for his interview. He got some equipment to do the welding course and practised with it. He was eager and determined. Then he did the interview, but did not get onto the course. He got a one- or two-line response. That was not encouraging for a young person. I imagine it was a run-of-the-mill response, but we are supposed to be tackling youth unemployment. I realise there is a balance to be struck with regard to long-term unemployment and youth employment. There was a view that perhaps it went to someone on the live register who was long-term unemployed; I do not know. I suppose that is equally commendable, but my point is we need to ensure that we are encouraging our young people throughout the process and that they get proper feedback. This man went through a great deal of work to be successful in his interview and application. It is important that we work with young people to encourage them and give them feedback rather than write out the standard letter.

It is a little like mentoring but it is critical. Someone mentioned self-esteem as I walked in the door, although I am unsure in what context. Anyway, it is important that we tackle youth unemployment. These people could potentially be our long-term unemployed. I appreciate that we have a balance to strike between getting people who are long-term unemployed off the live register and tackling youth unemployment.

I refer to the geographical spread of the courses. He was prepared to travel to the next county to attend the training course. I speak in general terms, but it is about striking a balance and getting to and tapping into enthusiastic young people when they have just left school or college. What work is being done in that regard?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I welcome the delegations. I am sorry I had to leave, but there was a division in the Seanad.

It is no secret that I am a product of the further education sector and that I am always looking over my shoulder at the staff of the old VEC schools who gave us the sector we have today. The system was not planned and grew organically. We owe a significant amount to teachers and principals, in particular. I have come across some imaginative principals in my time.

I have a number of concerns about where we are going. The first concerns the allocation of staff to further education colleges. I am not sure if this issue was dealt with. However, the allocation is based on the second level staffing system and it concerns me greatly that we are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. It simply will not work. For example, every college should have a liaison officer to deal with local industry and who would be responsible for promoting courses and the college locally. In the not too distant past a number of ETBs sought to second staff to be further education development officers. I applaud this and funding should be made available for it because ETB managers are overwhelmed by the volume of work they must do, besides trying to take on an additional role. If one considers the multiplicity of programmes offered by the large boards such as those in Cork, Dublin and Dún Laoighaire, etc., there is so much work for the senior management team to do that it is not possible to allocate the time needed to conduct an overview of the development of further education and training within their areas.

I am concerned about course development in further education colleges, in particular. The college in Ballyfermot has developed outstanding programmes which were developed organically and for which there was no great plan. They were a product of the innovation of the teachers. I would not like SOLAS, with its overarching responsibility, to ring-fencie or take a national view of how courses should be developed and kill off innovation at the bottom of the pile where the teachers are.

I am worried about the funding mechanisms that will be in place down the line, especially when the delegates refer to output-based funding. I can understand from a quality assurance and a value for money point of view that people want to see a return for their money or outputs to reflect the input of cash. However, there is an holistic aspect to education that we must address. Not everybody will achieve or receive a certificate; therefore, they must be catered for. I am not sure whether they should be catered for by modular provision or by allowing them to explore the programmes that might benefit them.

Modular provision brings me back to services for industry. Training centres market their programmes and meet the needs of industry in the workplace and I have long been saying further education colleges should do the same. I recall a number of years ago planning to deliver a degree programme to De Beers in Shannon. I would like to see that flexibility and freedom in the sector. My former union members might have a difficulty with moving in that direction, but it is the one in which a modern economy needs to go to deliver programmes.

I am concerned that every ETB does not have training centres located within its area If I was an ETB chief executive officer, I would not want to borrow from a neighbouring board to provide training; I would want to have control in my area.

I am extremely proud of the further education sector and the old IVEA and the ETBI for the work they did in developing the sector. If it is to receive the recognition it deserves, SOLAS must come in 100% behind it, fund and staff it properly and give the teachers, lecturers and tutors the standing they rightly deserve in society.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I thank the delegates for their presentations. Reference was made to assessing the need for courses. In many cases, it is difficult to assess what is required when we do not know which companies will take on apprentices. I was a victim of this. In the past few years skills shortages have emerged. When one is prepared to sponsor someone and offer him or her an apprenticeship, one is stopped because he or she does not have a piece of paper. People aged between 45 and 55 years such as me went out into the world and learned from those who had gone before them. We did not have a piece of paper in our hand. I gave a document to the Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Damien English. Around Ireland there are people aged between 55 and 60 years who are willing to hand on the torch and it would not cost the Government money. They have sons and daughters with different skills sets. They are willing to do this, but because of the need to have a little piece of paper, they are forbidden from doing so.

AnCO was one of the greatest organisations ever. Anybody who came out of it was trained to a standard. I have worked on many construction sites and during the boom, if one acted and looked like a driver, one was a driver, but I guarantee that this cannot continue. The standard being set for apprenticeships is not good enough. A little piece of paper that tells someone he or she can go down a fall and dig a trench 20 yards long does not make him or her a digger driver. As Senator Hildegarde Naughton said, a long time ago people went to Mervue or the boatyards in Galway to take welding courses and so on and they learned a trade. The six week course now provided does not make a heavy welder; the hours and resources have to be put in. I question the pieces of paper going around. We have to change the mindset behind the way we do everything.

We talk about looking forward. A year ago we were looking forward to the roll-out of broadband services, with wires to be laid and so on. However, we are importing 260 people every six months to do this, while, at the same time, only 16 people are being trained in a college to do this work. I hope common sense will prevail because I am passionate about apprenticeships. I have identified the urgent need for between 5,000 and 6,000 apprentices. I have identified where 90% of the crane drivers aged between 65 and 70 years are and the different skills sets people in this age cohort possess. I believe in technology and moving forward, but if apprenticeships are not served on the ground, one will not have the building in which to put the computer or the road leading to the building. A root and branch analysis of the system is needed and courses have to be lengthened. There is a shimozzle over trainers and safety courses.

This comes from employers. It costs a person €300 to take a safety training course and the next course also costs €300. We need a multitasker to deliver courses at a price people can afford to drive forward all of the different skills sets.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice asked the question I was going to pose and more ably than I would have. I agree with everything he said. SOLAS works very closely with a wide range or organisations, bodies and Departments. There are people who fell on hard times during the recession and want to retrain but do not qualify for grant aid for a course because their spouses or partners are working. Can anything be done for such persons whose incomes are perhaps €5 or €6 above the threshold and cannot access a particular course? This is related more to the JobBridge programme. People are barred from participating in further education and the issue should be examined.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Do our guests have feedback on the 20 year old training allowance which was removed and about which we have all been contacted? While it was not a large amount, it meant a lot to every person who received it. I would be interested in hearing if people have feedback on whether it has impacted on the number of people availingo f further education and training opportunities. In the context of a five year strategy to develop educational skills, the flexibility of the back to education allowance is important. Those who have reached a certain level on the qualifications framework but want to retrain at a lower level are unable to do so because they are blocked from accessing allowances and assistance. There are many who have trained in something which has not worked out for them or which is no longer a marketable qualification and they are blocked off and unable to participate in something which would get them back into the workforce. There should be flexibility in particular cases where people should be engaged with and supported. This is very important in achieving the goals set out. Will our guests comment on the importance of this issue?

Mr. Paddy Lavelle:

I will answer the general question on flexibility and impermeability, that is, the difficulty in a person’s passing from one course to another when his or her skills are no longer required in the economy because he or she already has a high skill level that prevents them from doing so. We do not know the impact of the BTEA rules or the 2020 allowance. Although we are not certain what factors cause a drop or reduction, individual learners tell us situations are caused by the existing rules. Given that we need rules, how do we get around the problem? How do we make exceptions? Senator Hildegarde Naughton mentioned exceptions being made in particular circumstances, which is a difficulty, not so much for us but for the Department of Social Protection or Education and Skills. All the rules are in place for a particular reason, to encourage people to continue on the cycle of returning to education and upskilling, and they have an impact on those who are unable to work using a particular skill and want to retrain. The issue often arises in our discussions because people return to us who want to be reskilled but for whom these barriers are in place.

I thank Deputies Gerard P. Craughwell and Michael Conaghan for their praise for the historical achievements of the sector. We are proud of our history and the fact that we have credibility and the confidence of those who come to us for our courses. We provide courses not just in the colleges of further education to which Senator Gerard P. Craughwell referred but also at community level through community education and adult literacy programmes into the training centres. We are very proud of the courses provided. Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice referred to the pride people trained by AnCO had in the training courses and it is equally the case for those who have trained in our training centres. They take great pride in the standard they have reached.

Members have also mentioned the length of time training takes. It takes time to develop serious skills. Members probably referred to upskilling in an area such as heavy welding or other short courses developed to build on existing skills. There is a view about whether they were sufficient. The ordinary courses for developing initial skills are adequate. They are at the same level as the former AnCO programmes and people gain serious skills at a very high level in our training courses.

Mr. Michael Moriarty:

The historical perspective is very important. The ETB sector has returned to its roots in the 1930s and 1940s, bringing apprenticeships and skills training together. This is very significant in the reform and vast restructuring of the sector. Perhaps, in the 1960s and 1970s, many of us lost our way. In a rush to be respectable, many of our schools began to resemble all other second level schools. Now, there is a renewed focus on skills. Recently we met Fasttrack into Information Technology, FIT. Two years ago its representatives were telling members that there were 4,000 vacancies in the IT industry; now there are 6,000. People with moderate, middle level skills are needed and they can be provided through further education and training. My daughter works with a big international consultancy company, Deloitte, and it is uncanny that Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice said the same thing as a senior partner in the company. Deloitte is not interested in certification, MBAs or other masters degrees but will train people to give them the skills needed to function in the industry. It is uncanny that a major international company has exactly the same outlook and philosophy the Deputy has represented. He probably has friends in high places without realising it.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Unfortunately not.

Dr. Kara McGann:

Senator Hildegarde Naughton asked about the OECD's comment on the inevitable tendency for vocational programmes to develop their own dynamics. This comment referred to all international systems, not Ireland specifically. There is a need for more engagement, not just at national level but also at local level across employers, the ETBs, Intreo and higher education, around one table with a view to tapping into local market intelligence on where the skills needs and gaps are now and in the future. One issue that arose regarding strategy was the lack of quantitative data for outputs from the sector. We have heard about the learner database which we hope will happen quickly because while it is a very diverse sector and programme driven, there are not enough data for what is coming from the sector. Such a database would be very valuable.

Mr. Paul O'Toole:

Deputy Michael Conaghan recognises the value of the sector which is great to hear it because it is our observation that it provides incredible value that is not perceived or understood more widely. SOLAS will advocate for the potential of the sector which goes across the board in so many fields. I will ask my colleague, Ms Hartley, to talk about the community side.

My colleague, Dr. Bryan Fields, has responsibility for the skills and labour market research unit and he will speak to Senator Naughton's point. It is disappointing that anybody who seeks to engage in further education and training, FET, whether it is for welding or for other purposes, may feel that they are dismissed with a one-line response. That is something we need to think about. They deserve the courtesy of our having an engagement with them, and that plays to the point that was made earlier about guidance and how people can be supported and directed into the best path for them.

Senator Craughwell made a number of points, the essence of which was, I think, not to throw out the baby with the bath water. The new strategy should be introduced without rejecting all that is there already. We certainly will not do that. We are very conscious of the need to walk before we run, but we are determined to look at the strengths of the sector as well as the weaknesses, potential and opportunities, and really drive this idea of continual improvement rather than rejecting what is there simply because it is the past. We take that point very much on board.

Deputy Fitzmaurice made a point about current apprenticeships and how they are managed. All existing apprenticeships are under formal review at the moment. They are being worked through a process with SOLAS and partners and will be considered by Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, later this month. There is a process whereby people with skills and experience in a particular craft can seek to acquire the qualification through a process called "recognition of prior learning". They would be assessed under this process. It is not for everybody so I do not want to overstate it, but we can provide details of that to the Deputy if he is interested in following up on the point.

Deputy Bannon asked whether people lost out simply because of a threshold. I cannot speak to the JobBridge programme as that is under the remit of the Department of Social Protection, but if people are supported and have the information there is a huge range of opportunities, some at very low cost, so that people need not be left behind just because of that threshold. Information on that is available through education and training boards and SOLAS.

Deputy McConalogue referred to the revision of allowances and the pressure that puts people under. I am sure that is true, but we have had to manage the pressure and budgets as best we could in line with policy. I reiterate that a quarter of the budget that is deployed goes on income support for trainees. It is probably not enough. I am sure all of those policies will be reviewed as we move forward.

With the Chairman's indulgence, I invite Ms Fiona Hartley to talk a little bit about the community side and Dr. Bryan Fields to address Senator Naughton's question on labour market forecasting.

Ms Fiona Hartley:

In the FET strategy, there is a twofold focus. One is on labour market activation skills for the economy and the other is social inclusion. In the strategy, we outline very clearly that we look at skills not just as in skills for employment, but also skills for employability which are equipping people to insulate themselves against future unemployment and giving them the skills for lifelong learning. Just to reassure some of the people who are here, particularly from a further education background, it is not just about labour market activation. It is about looking at the whole social inclusion agenda. My colleagues from ETBI have already referenced a number of the programmes in terms of adult literacy and community education. We have a long history to which Michael has referred.

In terms of the concern that we are just looking at full-time accreditation, which Senator Craughwell mentioned, we could look at more modular type of learning. That is actually recognised. The importance for community education is that this is a way for people to actually engage in education. Unaccredited provision is the key to enabling people who are on the margins of society to begin to engage in a process which eventually would lead them to further skills development. What is important there, and we have mentioned the importance of gathering data to evaluate this, is to actually ensure that we develop the appropriate metrics for evaluating programmes of that kind, which often are not accredited.

Dr. Bryan Fields:

In response to Senator Naughton's point, the skills and labour market research unit has a capacity to carry out employment forecasting based on the ESRI medium-term review. They have three scenarios there and we are basing our forecasting on the recovery scenario, which we now think is the most plausible of the three. We are projecting employment to reach 2.02 million by the year 2020. Our current forecasters are predicting that construction employment will reach approximately 150,000 in 2017. That is in the context where probably the largest category of occupation on the live register is craft-related areas, at roughly 70,000 people.
The labour market research unit has a number of outputs. We host the national skills database, which is a very useful tool, and from that we assist the expert group on future skill needs in a number of publications on an annual basis, most notably the National Skills Bulletin and the training and education outputs. We monitor bricks-and-mortar and online recruitment agencies for vacancies and monitor those trends over time. We also publish for apprenticeship forecasting, and expect to become heavily involved in forecasting for the new apprenticeship council that is to be established shortly.
We conduct follow-up-surveys every two years, and this is an important aspect of what we have been doing, on the training provision since the mid-1990s. Recently we have been doing them every year so we are able to monitor and track the effectiveness of the provision. This year, there have been a couple of developments to expand that into the further education sector. SOLAS is currently working with statisticians from the Department of Education and Skills and the Central Statistics Office with a view to identifying the economic status of former learners who participated in PLC programmes in 2013, for example. The data will be used to complement the results of the follow-up survey which SOLAS has conducted of former FÁS trainees who also attended courses in 2012. We also intend to conduct another follow-up survey in early 2015 of former learners who attended FÁS courses in 2013. We are currently engaged in negotiations with the CSO with a view to gaining access to four major administrative datasets which will enable the skills and labour market research unit to continuously monitor the economic status of former learners on FET outcomes.
On the one hand, we have identification of skills and, on the other, over the next few years we will be able to carry out tracking. That is all very well, but what do we do now? Each year we publish regional labour market profiles which are presented to each of the educational training boards and that breaks down the labour and employment demographics and the supply of education and training by region. That assists with local labour market intelligence, facilitating individual companies contacting further education colleges or local training centres to advise on what provision they ought to put on for the following year.

Hildegarde Naughton (Fine Gael)
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Are the ETBs being monitored on that?

Mr. Bryan Fields:

Yes. We have a business planning exercise with the ETBs which is very comprehensive. My unit provides relevant data on education and training outputs for particular regions and the employment forecast to guide the provision. We have also issued a guide document to the education and training boards regarding areas that might be addressed by them. This is done under five broad areas where further education providers could consider enhancing provision: selling and marketing, supply chain management, green economy and ICT. These are areas that the expert group will have identified in its existing reports, in report on logistics that is about to be finalised and on the study on the hospitality sector that is about to commence. They would all feed into the regional profiles.

We also look at areas where further education providers should strongly monitor provision to avoid over- or under-supply of skills, for example, in child care and health care.

Providers should also consider the appropriateness and distribution of current provision in areas and ensure that labour market need is demonstrated. I have in mind the broad field of arts and crafts and I am referring to core skills. Providers should also prioritise their provision, which links with committee members' references to the workplace element of education and training. The on-the-job aspect is critical, particularly for young people.
Commentators have made reference to the German apprenticeship system, but it is worth mentioning that the German system serves two main purposes - direct transition from school into the labour market for young and old alike and securing the skills that companies need. However, what we tend not to hear is that, under the German model, one must go through a particular training programme and become licensed to take up one of the 350 occupations. This debate may need to be held in Ireland in respect of new apprenticeships and occupations. Of the 2.1 million businesses in Germany, approximately 450,000 are involved in apprenticeships. Three quarters of businesses are not involved per se. The 1.3 million apprentices are governed by a national compact under which employers make places available across the occupations. There is a central clearing house. We may need to examine whether the Irish economy can support this number of new occupations, as we do not know. We have been in discussions with employers and the range of apprenticeships will expand, as it must. We are pinning a lot on that expansion because it is key for younger people and for reskilling workers who have been made redundant.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Senator D'Arcy is next. Senator Craughwell wishes to contribute again and I also wish to make a few points.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I apologise for being late, but we were dealing with the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, a part of which relates to the grant system for further education and its management by SOLAS.

I have two questions, the first of which is for SOLAS. That five education and training boards, ETBs, did not initially have training centres caused problems in some places. Has the situation been resolved and, if so, how?

My second question is for Mr. Moriarty, whom I last met at the final meeting of Louth VEC, of which I was a member, before it closed down. I have spoken with him since on the telephone. Are all of the ETBs up and running? Will we get the list of their members? Will Mr. Moriarty ask them to put information on their websites? The current amount of information on their memberships and so on is scant. For reasons of transparency, etc., it would be useful to have it.

Is the cost of €200 prohibitive for some people? Some categories of people cannot receive grants, for example, a single mother who is designated as living at home but who has a family of her own. She might be estranged from her home, but she has one. Have our guests encountered this problem?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I wish to address something that Mr. Lavelle mentioned. I omitted to compliment the community education and adult education systems, which do a fantastic job in preparing people. Ms Hartley pointed out that SOLAS had yet to discover a matrix by which it could measure non-certified programmes. We all agree that, for a fair percentage of people, non-certified programmes lead on to certified programmes, so I am glad that SOLAS is considering the matter.

I hope that I heard Dr. Fields wrong. The impression I got was that research would determine what programmes would be funded and that, where a course that had been successful in attracting learners was not meeting the market needs of the economy, SOLAS might not fund it, having decided that it was no longer an appropriate course. The further education colleges in particular have worked on the basis that courses are constantly being born and dying. They would hold a course that was on its last legs while developing a new one. I hate to think that we might end up with statisticians deciding what will and will not run and that there might be abrupt ends to programmes.

Deputy McConalogue referred to a change in direction for an individual. I might have a PhD in something before suddenly deciding that there is no future for me in that area and choosing to do a FETAC level 5 course on boat building or welding. I appreciate Mr. Lavelle's point that this is probably not an issue for ETBs or SOLAS, only the Department of Social Protection, but it is terrible to see obstacles for someone who wants to change his or her life's direction. God knows I have changed mine eight times, but I would never have managed it if the current obstacles had existed then. We must jointly find a way around this problem.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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To reference Senator Craughwell's point, there is a great deal of good community education in my constituency. However, it is not strategic and there is an overlap between some programmes. There are question marks over the value of a minority of those courses, although I will not name them.

Turning to Deputy Conaghan's points, Ballyfermot is one of a number of good examples of a further education college. It has produced Oscar winners and been innovative in the courses it runs. The statistics on third level participation in places like Ballyfermot may be misleading, though. If people attend the Ballyfermot College of Further Education, they are not included in the Higher Education Authority, HEA's reports on participation rates, yet some of the people attending it are doing third level degrees. Often, they are not accredited in Ireland but by British universities and do not necessarily receive grants or other funding. The committee visited the college. It faces a dilemma around the issue of not being classified, that is, it falls between two stools.

What is the ideal? How will we deal with the issue of further education colleges that provide third level education? Their work is very valuable. It is very valuable for the people who live in Ballyfermot that there is a college right at the heart of the community that provides third level education.

Education for Travellers is one area that is covered by community education. Young men and older men in the Traveller community need to be given certified qualifications and we need to do more to encourage and support them in that pursuit. Is anything being done about the issue? I know work is ongoing. Are there new plans for the area?

There is an issue with the transparency of funding in this sector. What improvements has SOLAS made in terms of transparency in the overall funding of the sector?

Mr. Paul O'Toole:

I will begin by answering Senator Jim D'Arcy's query about the education and training boards that did not receive a training centre. His question and observation are quite right. The old FÁS training network of centres did not map onto the structure for the education and training boards. That left a situation in which five education and training boards have statutory responsibility for training. He asked how they discharged that task. They are not all the same. They are in different parts of the country and have different relationships. What has happened is that the Department of Education and Skills is in dialogue with the education and training boards, supported by SOLAS, to work out an equitable solution to deal with the situation. The Senator is smiling at my response.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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Sometimes SOLAS is like a referee officiating at a boxing match.

Mr. Paul O'Toole:

We are getting there. We must recognise that there is an issue, and I think that is being done.

Senator Craughwell mentioned that programmes were being ditched willy-nilly. I will ask my colleague Dr. Bryan Fields to comment later. First, I wish to say that every programme, no matter what its source or nature, must have an objective and targeted outcome. The key point is that it would be a labour market outcome in some or several cases. Many people are not at that stage yet, so we have to devise the indicators of success around the nature of the programme. That is done in an open way and it is our intention to do so. Dr. Fields might discuss the matter further.

The Chairman mentioned a couple of related points such as the transparency of funding. This year, with a gargantuan effort and co-operation by the education and training boards, we published the first further education and training services plan. It shows precisely how the investment of €640 million is spent by the ETBs and other bodies and programmes and shows a value for each one. The information is published on the record. That is a starting point, and we will develop the initiative.

Let me turn to third level education. There were two aspects to the points made about third level education. Perhaps my comments will also answer Senator Jim D'Arcy's point. Over the past number of years, almost 20% of people who undertook training courses had a third level qualification but had found themselves unemployed. They sought a supplementary skill or change of direction and the system was very open to that idea.

The points made by the Chairman probably open up a broader discussion. We have tended to pigeonhole qualifications around the third level or further education and training sector. Perhaps that is the issue we need to address. Some of the Senators and Deputies made the point about what is valued. As I said in my opening statement, the SOLAS mandate covers the National Framework of Qualifications levels 1 to 6, which is intermediate, technical and entry levels. That is our space and that is what we work with, but it does not preclude a more sensible allocation in terms of how courses are delivered. My colleagues in the ETBs will probably give a more informed version of this.

Mr. Michael Moriarty:

I will start with community education and the value of further education. Over the past number of years I have been concerned about the notion, reinforced by the publication of school league tables in the national press, that success is determined only by access to third level education, which is completely and utterly wrong. As Senator Craughwell has rightly said, people enter into further education and graduate from further education colleges with significant qualifications and skills. Unfortunately, the league tables do not give them credit and their omission is dumping on the further education sector. As I have done before, I appeal to the press to bear that in mind and end their dreadful disservice to our sector.

Senator Craughwell and others have mentioned skills. The European Commission and all the recent reports talk about the importance of generic skills, which are critical thinking, the ability to work in a team and the ability to speak in public. An important part of community education is the development of confidence and the development of a rounded person. We have the specific skills as well. There must be a balance in the education and training system between what industry demands in terms of specific skills and the provision of the important social dimension of educating people in generic and developmental skills. That is critically important.

I notice that Senator Jim D'Arcy has left just as I am about to respond to his query. However, I shall put my comments on the record. ETBs are now up and running but it took a long time to establish the boards. The final one was established only ten days ago, and the names will be available on our website. As I reckon this will be my last opportunity to talk today, I congratulate Senator Craughwell on his elevation to the Seanad. He comes from this sector.

Finally, we have hosted visits by three international groups in recent months. They came here to look at the massive reform that has taken place and were impressed, even though it is in its infancy and its full impact has not become evident yet. They are very engaged in what we have done here, particularly those from the new accession countries to the European Union from Eastern Europe. Recently we brought them to the Blackrock Further Education Institute, which is under the remit of the Dublin and Dún Laoghaire ETB. Senator Craughwell will be very familiar with the establishment. It is an outstanding establishment and a credit to the sector. I was delighted to bring our international visitors to such a fine establishment.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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As Senator Jim D'Arcy has returned, I can tell him that his question on ETBs has been answered and the last ETB was set up ten days ago.

Mr. Michael Moriarty:

I said that there had been a long election process for the ETBs, but that is now complete and we will make the names available. All of the boards have held their first meetings, which have been very successful. The boards comprise a great rich mix of people, which includes representatives of industry. ETBs have a great future ahead and we will have the names available for him.

Jim D'Arcy (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Moriarty.

Mr. Paddy Lavelle:

I wish to reply to the Chairman's question on whether courses are strategic in a local area. Some of the principle goals in the FET strategy include active inclusion. The focus of a lot of community level programmes is to build capacity in people in order that they can take on the more skills-based levels 5 and 6 in due course.

Modules were also mentioned. I am going to an awards ceremony tonight where we will present awards to people. They will receive components of awards that will over time build up to full awards at levels 3, 4 and 5. At first glance some of these courses may appear not to be so strategic, but their function is to build the capacity of individuals and groups in order that they can take on the next courses that will become skills and are related to skills for the economy, ultimately. Probably it will be over a three- or four-year period rather than initially on the first round.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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What about Travellers?

Mr. Paul Lavelle:

As the committee will be aware, a decision was taken in the Department some years ago to separate out Traveller provision, and this provision is incorporated into overall services across the domains. There is a general problem with regard to access to courses by Travellers at an appropriate level and in the appropriate way. That was probably more severe in the past couple of years, as there was more pressure on the places available. There is significant work to be done in attracting Travellers, particularly male Travellers, to courses. That work is being done in general at the community education level and the adult literacy level, but it is being done. We hope for some benefit from it over time. Certainly it could do with additional funding, because the withdrawal of some of the specific funding had the impact that we were unable to say we had a particular strand of funding.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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If the members are agreeable, we will wrap up. I thank everybody, both guests and committee members.