Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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This meeting has been convened for the purpose of considering the following order, which was passed by Dáil Éireann on 4 November:

That the proposal that Dáil Éireann approves the terms of the Doha Amendment to the Kyoto Protocol, done at Doha on 8 December 2012, a copy of which was laid before Dáil Éireann on 23 October 2014, be referred to the Select Sub-Committee on Environment, Community and Local Government in accordance with Standing Order 82A(3)(b) and (6)(a), which, not later than 19 November 2014, shall send a message to the Dáil in the manner prescribed in Standing Order 87, and Standing Order 86(2) shall accordingly apply.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the sub-committee for its invitation. The Kyoto Protocol to the United Nations Framework Convention is an international agreement which committed certain parties to internationally binding greenhouse gas emission reduction targets during the period 2008 to 2012, inclusive. The EU and its member states, including Ireland, made reduction commitments in respect of this first commitment period which will be met. In December 2012 at the Doha climate change conference in Qatar, the parties to the Kyoto Protocol adopted the so-called Doha Amendment to the protocol.

The main feature of the Doha Amendment is that it created a second commitment period from 2013 to 2020, inclusive, in respect of greenhouse gas emission reductions for those parties which wished to enter into internationally binding emission reduction targets. In addition, the Doha Amendment made further amendments to the text of the original protocol to be implemented in this second commitment period. Most of these amendments simply enabled the implementation of new mitigation commitments but there are also some provisions that entail changes in substantive obligations.

First, the list of greenhouse gases covered by Kyoto Protocol is extended, with the addition of one gas, nitrogen trifluoride, NF3. Although the emissions of this gas are currently tiny, it is a potent greenhouse gas, with a global warming potential of 17,200. That means one tonne of NF3 emitted into the atmosphere is equivalent to 17,200 tonnes of CO2.

Second, the Doha Amendment provides for a simplified procedure that allows a party to adjust its commitment by increasing its ambition during a commitment period. Previously, such an adjustment would require consensus among all parties to the protocol for its adoption and ratification by three fourths of the parties for its entry into force. Following the Doha Amendment, an increase in ambition proposed by a party regarding its target is considered adopted unless more than three fourths of parties object, and it no longer requires ratification for its entry into force.

Third, and finally, the Doha Amendment automatically cancels the assigned amount units of a party if and to the extent that its assigned amount for the second commitment period exceeds its average emission in the first three years of the preceding commitment period, multiplied by eight, or the number of years in the second commitment period. This means the Doha Amendment automatically adjusts a party’s target to prevent an increase in its emissions for the period 2013 to 2020 beyond its average emissions for the years 2008 to 2010.

The European Union, its member states and Iceland, acting in a single bloc or in "joint fulfilment", agreed to be bound by reduction targets in the Doha Amendment’s second commitment period, specifically, to limit their average collective greenhouse gas emissions in the years 2013 to 2020 to 80% of their base-year emissions, where most base-year emissions are from 1990. This overall reduction commitment applies to the bloc of the EU, its member states and Iceland as a whole. Within that bloc commitment, each member state is committed to differing emission reduction targets, strictly reflecting by design those already agreed to under EU legislation, specifically, in the EU’s so-called effort-sharing decision of 2009. In other words, by approving the terms of the Doha Amendment, Ireland is not committing itself to any additional emission reductions beyond those already agreed as part of legally binding EU legislation in respect of the period 2013 to 2020.

Ireland’s greenhouse gas emissions reduction commitments under the EU’s effort sharing decision is 20% below 2005 levels over the 2013 to 2020 period, with annual targets within that period.

Of course, those commitments in EU legislation are very challenging for Ireland, and there has been much discussion and deliberation on them at varying political and administrative levels. Nevertheless, those substantial challenges reflect the reality of EU legislation and not the Doha Amendment itself.

As mentioned previously, "joint fulfilment" means that several parties may agree to achieve their emission commitments jointly. Once the joint commitment has been achieved, all parties participating in the joint fulfilment are considered to be in compliance with the Kyoto Protocol’s emission obligations. Only if the joint commitment is not achieved does each party become responsible for its individual emissions levels. In other words, non-compliance with the Kyoto Protocol by an individual EU member state can occur only if: the joint commitment between the EU, its member states and Iceland is not achieved; the individual member state does not comply with its national target; and the member state does not buy sufficient internationally valid Kyoto emission units to compensate for the shortfall in its domestic emission reductions. The compliance assessment for the Kyoto Protocol’s second commitment period will not take place until 2023.

In response to the challenges posed by EU legislation in this area and, by extension, the Doha Amendment, the Government decided the following last April. First, as members are well aware, it decided to adopt a national climate policy position which specifies: an aggregate reduction in carbon dioxide emissions of at least 80%, compared to 1990 levels, by 2050 across the electricity generation, built environment and transport sectors; and, in parallel, an approach to carbon neutrality in the agriculture and land-use sector, including forestry, which does not compromise capacity for sustainable food production.

Second, it decided to approve the drafting of the climate action and low carbon development Bill pursuant to a submitted general scheme.

Both initiatives underpin the iterative development of mitigation policy by means of five-yearly national low carbon transition and mitigation plans. Each such plan will specify the policy measures which will be required to manage greenhouse gas emissions and removals at a level commensurate with the national objective of transition to a low carbon, climate resilient and environmentally sustainable economy by 2050. It will also ensure, at a minimum, compliance with any existing mitigation obligation on the State under EU or international law, including the Doha Amendment.

The entry into force of the Doha Amendment also represents an important objective for Ireland and the EU, as part of negotiations with other UNFCCC parties as progress is made towards a new global, legally binding agreement to take effect from 2020. It is hoped to develop such a new international climate change agreement to cover all countries at the Paris climate change conference, scheduled to take place in 2015.

Ratification of the Doha Amendment is of critical importance in the international negotiations under the UNFCCC for a new global agreement on climate change. While the EU is already implementing the requirements of the amendment, its ratification by developed country parties, which are included in the second commitment period, is seen by many developing countries as a vital sign of good faith that commitments entered into will be implemented. It is noted that at the recent UNFCCC negotiating session in Bonn, from 20 to 25 October, the executive secretary of the UNFCCC called on all parties to speed up ratification.

Because the honouring by Ireland of its commitments in EU legislation and, thereby, those in the Doha Amendment, will likely impose a charge on public funds, the terms of the Doha Amendment require the prior approval of Dáil Éireann, in accordance with Article 29.5.2o of the Constitution. Hence, there is a need for a motion on this issue to be moved in the Dáil.

In summary, because of our progressive stance on the international stage in respect of climate change and as a corollary to our existing commitments under EU legislation, I believe that it is both right and appropriate that Ireland approves the terms of the Doha Amendment. I ask members to do so.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister and now call on Deputy Stanley to make a few comments.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister on his first time at this committee in his new role. I also welcome his departmental officials.

As I understand it, a motion will come before the Dáil fairly soon to carry out this ratification process. We ratified the Kyoto Protocol in 2002, so it is important that we should fulfil that to the letter, including the Doha Amendment. I am concerned that we are moving quickly towards 2020, which is just five short years away. We still have large steps to take to ensure that we will meet our international obligations, including our EU ones, given what we have signed up to.

I welcome the fact that Iceland and the EU are working together on this issue. As we have seen, climate change does not respect any borders so the more countries that can be brought into such agreements the better. I would encourage the Minister to use his good offices to achieve a consensus among as many states as possible in this regard.

As regards the 2050 climate change targets, a recent UN report showed alarming results concerning what is already happening and what is coming down the line. That report was backed up by a large body of scientific evidence. I have heard scientists describe the report as emanating from the most comprehensive and broad-based research that has ever been carried out on any project or to back up any case.

Only those who still believe the earth is flat, will deny that climate change is a problem. Anyone aged over 30, as a good few of us here are - I am over 40 and a bit more - can see that even in our lifetimes the climate has changed. Those are the facts of the matter.

The Taoiseach gave a great speech recently to a big international audience, which is grand. However, we are nearly four years into this Government's term and we need to see our climate change legislation. I know the Minister has been newly appointed and is not long in the door, but I hope he is committed to dealing with climate change. We tried to push the previous Minister along; promises were made but deadlines came and went. I know that the Minister cannot rush these things, however, because we have to get them right.

This committee carried out a large body of work in summer 2013 along with Professor John Sweeney of NUI Maynooth. A comprehensive report was produced as a result of that endeavour. We really need to move on this and, to that end, we want to get the relevant climate change legislation in place. I realise that there are issues concerning how one can divvy up the obligations for various sectors. There is a big issue concerning agriculture, not least because in some cases our agriculture is a lot more sustainable than agricultural practices in other countries. The value of our forestry must also be taken into account, as well as the fact that we have extensive grasslands. Those aspects must be considered carefully, but I welcome the fact that we are moving ahead to ratify the Doha Amendment.

Nonetheless, we need to introduce our own climate change legislation. The Taoiseach cannot preach fine words to international audiences if we are failing to put basic legislation in place to meet those obligations here at home.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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The motion calls on Dáil Éireann to approve the terms of the Doha Amendment to the Kyoto Protocol, which was done at Doha on 8 December 2012. A copy of that was laid before Dáil Éireann on 23 October 2014. I doubt we would be here if there was not an obligation under the Constitution. The Minister said as much in his statement.

It is frustratingly annoying to have spent weeks here compiling a report and conducting hearings with people here because we are required to comply. In actual fact we are not doing what is important - the production of legislation and sectoral plans. We decided not to have targets in the legislation but we were going to state our ambition in the sectoral plans.

The important thing, and what will show real leadership, is how we get there. Essentially, we saw the recent negotiating strategy at European level which had a huge focus of attention on the agricultural sector. We all know how important agriculture is to this country. However, if one sector more or less gets a free get out of jail card then one must redouble efforts for other sectors. Can the Minister tell us what is happening with sectoral plans? Can he explain why we have not seen them so far? Let me give the example of public transport. A very significant amount of investment will be required in order to get people to shift from using a private car to using public transport and also goods will have to be moved in a different way.

Can the Minister tell us about the retrofitting of homes? The scheme has stalled even though there was a decent uptake at the beginning. We are putting an impossible weight on our shoulders in trying to comply with targets for 2030, given that we are playing catch-up at this stage. We need to see how this will play out. What relationship does the Minister have with other Departments in making sure sectoral plans come forward and targets are complied with? How can he ensure significant investment is made in order to deliver on what is stated in the plans?

The reason we are not in a worse compliance situation is due to the recession which resulted in a huge reduction in the amount of motorised transport. The construction sector due to using concrete and so on was also a significant contributor to greenhouse gas emissions during the boom but the recession has changed all that. Therefore, we may be understating the current position at the moment. I hope there is an upturn in the economy and we are starting to see some signs of same. An upturn will mean we have more catching up to do because we have lagged behind. When will the legislation be produced? When does the Minister hope to have the legislation enacted? Will the sectoral plans be produced at the same time? What is the relationship between forestry in bogs and carbon sinks? Has there been a change in approach to that area by the European Union? Clearly, it will also be important for us to offset some of the agricultural emissions. Birdwatch Ireland made an extremely good contribution on the role bogs play in terms of carbon sinks which completely surprised us. The Minister needs to see how such an initiative would factor into negotiations that happen at European level. Those are my initial comments.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I had hoped to ask the Minister about water charges which is the main issue on the minds of everyone in the country. However, I have been told that my query is not in order.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The Deputy cannot raise the matter. The agenda for the select sub-committee only allows us to discuss the amendment to the Kyoto Protocol.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Shall I take it that the Minister has no news he would like to give us on the issue?

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The Minister cannot discuss the matter. As much as we would like to discuss it we must stick to the agenda.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I presume we can come back to it at some point.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I ask the Minister to give a commitment to come back at a very early stage.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The Minister is coming back. We have dealt with the Deputy's correspondence but we can only discuss the agenda. He will return shortly to discuss the issue but today we will just discuss the motion.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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He might want to reply.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I cannot allow him to do so. Does Deputy Coppinger wish to say anything about the motion?

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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No.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I ask the Minister to address the concerns raised by Deputies Catherine Murphy and Stanley.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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If Members do not mind, I shall amalgamate my comments on their concerns as there was a bit of overlap.

I shall first address a very real issue. I accept there is genuine concern about the legislation. My plan is to publish it next month, if at all possible, and I believe we will meet that deadline. As Members are probably aware, it is on the priority list of all legislation with a view to enacting it as quickly as possible. I accept we need to get the legislation published. It is a priority for the Government. A lot of it is like an accordion as there is fallout from the legislation.

In terms of sectoral plans and their development, a steering group has been put in place. A lot of work is ongoing so that time would not be lost. Those plans will, in line with the legislation, be published accordingly once the legislation has been enacted. A timeline of 24 months has been set to put them in place in the legislation. We might look at that aspect in the legislation, if needs be. I accept that the sectoral plans must be in great detail and be for a defined period in order to achieve the necessary results.

There is a requirement to set up an expert group. As the committee will be aware, I am in the process of concluding that aspect. Separately Members have asked questions on the matter on previous occasions or through parliamentary questions. The process is under way and is very near conclusion. I hope to be able to make announcements on same. We need that group to advise us because this is moving at a serious pace. I refer to the technologies that can be used, the changes that float across various jurisdictions and how we can learn from such situations. Somebody in my position needs to take very seriously the advice from an expert group. We are putting a lot of detail into the initiative in order to ensure we are able to generate that advice for years to come. Also, to ensure the group can act in a fairly independent way which is necessary.

In terms of the 2020 targets, I am on public record as saying that they were impossible to meet. Given the circumstances in which they were designed, they were very difficult. We, as a country, will have to address the matter. Recently I had three meetings with the outgoing commissioner on the subject of climate change in 2030, from which an agreement was generated, and to state we believed the baseline, by which the 2020 targets were set, was wrong as was the treatment of agriculture. I accept what Deputy Murphy said that we cannot just have some mitigation for one sector. I agree with her that agriculture is a critical sector and that the targets set for Ireland, which are the among the highest for any European country, should not have been set. The targets did not tally. To put it simply, we could not meet our food production targets if we met the 2020 targets. In addition, countries going through economic changes like we were would not have the flexibility to address the matter. These issues were discussed along with cost efficiency, the GDP route of calculation, etc. All of the discussion of these issues with the outgoing commissioner came to fruition because of the new agreement level over the past couple of weeks which the committee is well aware of.

The challenges for 2020 will not go away. We need, through this legislation, the sectoral plans and the framework, to see how we can meet those challenges as much as possible. We really need to look at the far more realistic and longer term period of 2030. Ways to reach our targets for 2030 will be set out subsequently as a result of the agreement reached a couple of weeks ago.

We need to look at a whole range of areas. Obviously, there are the four areas that have already been identified but we need to get into the finer detail regarding what work we need to do on them. That is a challenge across Government. A whole-of-government approach is required. It must be driven by me and I have said to my Government colleagues that we need, as a country, to address this issue as quickly as possible. We must put in place the proper responses across the various sectors in order to address it. No one can be exempt. It will be impossible to achieve the targets unless every sector meets the challenges before it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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The sectoral plans are required 24 months after the legislation is either published or enacted.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is what is in the proposed legislation.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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We have waited a couple of years for the legislation and then it will be a couple of years after that before the actual mechanisms will be put in place to deliver. We are losing four years but the targets are not standing still. In fact, the 2030 targets are going to be even more unachievable by virtue of the fact that we are delaying the implementation. That should be a major concern for all of us. There will be financial obligations but there is also a moral obligation to meet our commitments.

I completely accept that Ireland has a different profile to other countries, particularly those which are heavily industrialised. Those countries have different difficulties to us in the sense that they must work to mitigate some of the effects of industrial pollution. I can visualise a Minister in 2030 saying that the targets were never reachable by virtue of the fact that we have given ourselves such a limited amount of time to meet them.

As a matter of interest, why is this motion being put before the Dáil now? Why was this not done well before now? It seems like now is the 11th hour and it may well be thus because we have not got the legislation in place and have dragged our feet on it.

We are putting an expert group in place now. I realise that the Minister is barely five minutes in office but we went out and negotiated in the absence of expert advice which, as the Minister has pointed out, is needed if we are going to put the proper systems and policies in place to achieve our targets. Why are these processes not happening in parallel rather than in sequence? I have major concerns about us actually reaching our 2030 targets if we keep on delaying the process.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On the 2020 targets, we had a lot of discussion in this committee in the summer of 2013 on carbon cliffs. I expressed concerns then that if we did not start the work on this, we would literally hit a cliff which we would then have to try to climb over, in terms of reaching our targets. I take on board the fact that the Minister has only been in office for three or four months but the Government has been in power for four years. I do not want to make a party political point here because we have a collective responsibility, as legislators to address this issue. I would like to think that this Dáil will put the necessary legislation in place to deal with this issue before its term ends.

On the issue of bogs and their carbon sink value, can we look again at the issue of cut-away bogs? There are extensive cut-away bogs in Laois, Offaly and several other midland counties and their value as carbon sinks must be assessed. This is not just an issue for the raised bogs. It is a well known fact, and scientific analysis has shown, that many of the cut-away bogs are now recreating themselves as raised bogs. They will have a carbon sink value and I ask the Minister to ensure that this is taken into consideration.

We must put the sectoral plans and legislation in place and start the job. It is so important. We should have started this a long time ago - back in the 1950s or 1960s - but we really must do it now.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the Deputies for their comments. On the issue of the bogs, I assure Deputy Stanley that we will look into that. On the issue of the Doha Amendment ratification, I would point out to Deputy Murphy that we are one of the first countries to engage in the ratification process. We are one of the early movers, which sends a signal out to the rest of the community. If we benchmark ourselves against other countries in that regard, this is a positive development.

As part of the debate on the legislation we can have another look at the 24-month provision, which is not necessarily something that is locked in. We can have a detailed discussion on that matter. On the expert group, we are very close to a conclusion in terms of its composition and then it will be a matter of bringing people together. I believe it is important to include international expertise in the group. I am certainly determined to close it off as quickly as possible. I appreciate Deputy Murphy's comments about that fact that I am barely in the door but I certainly want to close it off.

On the issue of sectoral plans, I would not like the committee to think that there is no work going on in this area across Government Departments. There is a lot of work going on in this space. I have spent a lot of time discussing the sectoral plans with various Departments. I was quite aware of this work in my previous role, when I was responsible for sustainable transport. We made quite a significant amount of progress on issues such as the electrification of cars although we need to move that on to the next phase, to be honest, now that the basic infrastructure is in place. We were trying to develop sustainable transport options in an environment where capital spending was far more limited than in the recent past. We were trying to move things along in the context of very limited capital. That is just one example of the work being done on a sectoral level. Plans are also afoot in the area of retrofitting homes and for other aspects of the built environment. There are also serious plans being developed in the area of electricity generation. I do not want members to believe that there is no serious work going on in these areas. There is a lot of work going on and we will see the fruits of that work. The first critical thing we must do, though, is get the legislation published and enacted. I welcome the fact that the Deputies who have spoken are positive about that requirement and I look forward to their positive contributions to the forthcoming debate on the legislation.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister. I would point out that a discussion on our report on the climate change Bill is scheduled for 5 December. The report represents an enormous amount of work on the part of the committee, carried out last year during a period of exceptionally fine weather. We were in these committee rooms for three or four weeks. Everyone had a very constructive input into the report and the launch of the report reflected that fact, with the very disparate groups who attended meetings all welcoming the final report. The committee itself has strong ownership of that report and members will have a chance to debate it on 5 December.

That concludes our consideration of the motion.