Ms Patricia King:

I was asked whether we were surprised the employers want it. We were not surprised, for the reasons I set out earlier, in that there is as much advantage to them in having an even playing pitch, and all of the other points around that. We obviously interact with the employers on an ongoing basis so they would share with us at any opportunity they felt appropriate what their view was on this.

With regard to harmonious industrial relations, the committee has heard Mr. Mulvey's view. Harmonious industrial relations are a positive for everybody in the workplace, if they can be achieved.

They can be achieved if there is an equity in terms of how people are dealt with, in particular if people get a decent rate of pay, are treated with respect, are properly compensated for their efforts and are rewarded in the context of terms of conditions.

Most people who go to work are adults who want a harmonious industrial relations scenario. They want to come to work and they spend a lot of time in the workplace, so they do not come to work not wanting harmonious industrial relations. Trade unions do not go around looking for disharmony. There would be some who would advocate that we do but, actually, we do not. However, we have to deal with a lot of disharmony. If I may say it, sometimes the role of the trade union in bringing about harmony can be discredited when, in fact, the contrary can often be the case. Notwithstanding that, as I said, having an employment regulation order that lists the terms and conditions and makes it clear to everybody what they have to pay and so on, having been through a thorough process which has ownership of the Houses of the Oireachtas, can only be a good thing.

I believe the employment regulation orders in the six sectors the Deputy is referring to come under the 2012 Act, which is still standing and operating. The Deputy is being more ambitious than I am in this regard because my ambitions would be fulfilled if we could just get the three sectors that will not go in to go into it. At the moment, a draft REO is published for the security sector, and the objections and so on are now coming in on that, which is very progressive for people working in the security sector; the contract cleaning sector is in discussions under the REO, which, again, is progressive; and the hairdressing sector is also having discussions. Of course, the hotels have gone back up to the place with the green roof looking for a judicial review for some reason, the catering employers have indicated no interest whatsoever in taking part in this and retail are in the same space. There are swathes of low paid workers in all of that, so the Deputy's ambition goes beyond mine in that, if I could ensure we could get those three groups in, we could come back and talk about who else should be in it. All our efforts are going into trying to encourage and persuade, and whatever other appropriate word might be used, those employers to get into that scenario. That is my response to the Deputy.