John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will now go back to public session. We will deal with our meeting on 9 October 2014. Are those minutes agreed? Agreed. Turning to matters arising from the minutes, are any matters arising? No.

Turning to correspondence received since our meeting on 9 October 2014. Item 3B.1 is correspondence from the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, on correspondence from Carmel Thornton regarding Eirgrid to be noted and published. Item 3B.2 is correspondence received from Mr. Michael Murphy, Westport, Co. Mayo on Mayo Greenway to be noted and forwarded to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. We have already received correspondence regarding Greenway development, so perhaps we could ask the Department to come back with a coordinated response.

Item 3B.3 is correspondence dated 8 October 2014 from Mr. Tom Moran, Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on matters relating to Mr. John Shine. This is a matter to be noted. This matter is directly connected with the issue of today's proceedings and legal proceedings against Mr. Shine, who has been in correspondence with the PAC, have been initiated by the State and therefore are precluded from today's meeting.

Item 3B.4 is correspondence received from Mr. Jack Harvey on misuse of state moneys to be noted. The matters raised in the correspondence are not for the PAC and Mr. Harvey will be informed accordingly. 3B.5 is correspondence received from Ms Majella Kavanagh, Horsecare Ireland, on a proposal for identification and deselection of equine to be noted. This is a policy matter in the first instance and we will seek a note from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine on the operation of the current policy to deal with unwanted horses. There appears to be a lot of merit in the proposal from Horsecare Ireland.

Paul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Will they come back in again soon?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Item 3.C is correspondence relevant to today's meeting. Item 3C.1 is correspondence received 14 October 2014 from Mr. Tom Moran, Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine with briefing material for today's meeting to be noted and published. Item 3C.2 is correspondence received 15 October 2014 from Mr. Tom Moran, Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine regarding opening statement to be noted and published.

The next matter is reports, statements and accounts received since our meeting on 9 October 2014. Item 4.1 is Labour Relations Commission; item 4.2 is Travellers' Protection Fund, Travel Agents' and Tour Operators' Bond Accounts; item 4.3 is Travellers' Protection Fund, Travel Agents' and Tour Operators' Bond Accounts; and 4.4 is City of Limerick VEC. These accounts are all to be noted.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Can I ask the Chairman about those accounts, in particular, the Labour Relations Commission account? Those are the financial statements from 2012.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask Mr. Andrew Harkness from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General to respond.

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

In response to Deputy Ross, that is correct.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That came in incredibly late again.

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

That is not on my list but I understand that was certified quite some time ago.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It certainly was late being laid in the Oireachtas. I think it was December last year, which is late. However, this is more than 18 months old now. What is happening? Why are these accounts so late? Is there a problem in the Office of the Comptroller & Attorney General? This is specifically about the Labour Relations Commission. Unaudited accounts are being issued for the Labour Relations Commission for 2013. I have them here. Why are they not audited?

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

My understanding is that the audit is ongoing. The 2012 accounts were certified some time ago. I do not have the exact date. It is not on the schedule I was given. It is a matter for the Labour Relations Commission in terms of its publication of its annual report.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It is. This is why I am asking you this. The last time I asked about this it was the Irish Museum of Modern Art, IMMA. The accounts were stuck in the C&AG's office. They have now been issued. These accounts are the financial statements for 2012 which we have just received for some reason. It is now October 2014 so they are more than 18 months old. Is that correct?

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

I believe we certified those 2012 accounts some time ago.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Why did we not get them until now?

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

It is a matter for the Department or whomever to lay the accounts. We do not lay the accounts before the Oireachtas.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General certifies the accounts and they go to the Department and the Department puts them before the House-----

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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-----then they go to the Oireachtas Library from the Department.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Maybe we should write-----

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Yes. These are late. I think it was December last year they were signed off, which makes them late. The 2013 ones are not out yet either. Why is that? They should be out by the end of June.

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

In terms of the prioritisation of work in the office, we focus on key audits in terms of completing them. Audits are progressed as quickly as we can.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Does that mean the office is way behind?

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

No. The vast bulk of the audits have been completed at this stage in terms of the volume of expenditure. We prioritise significant audits. There are still a number of audits that remain to be certified at this stage.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Am I right in saying that they should be ready and done and all completed before six months?

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

For State bodies, the recommended timescale is within six months. For other bodies, there is a longer time frame.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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However, that cannot be adhered to in the case of some of them because of the volume of work?

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

That is correct.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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We have a problem. We are in breach of the guidelines.

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

We audit as expeditiously as we can. There are a variety of circumstances why audits will be certified subsequent to that date including, for example, where we do not receive information on time.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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So we are behind?

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

There are a number of audits in arrears.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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What I do not understand is how many sets of unaudited accounts are floating around. The LRC seems to have issued - I have them here - a set of unaudited accounts for 2013. Is that normal?

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

No, that would not be normal. I would have to check the details for why the LRC issued unaudited accounts. It is unusual.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I have a copy of them. In what circumstances does that happen? This is not an aggressive line of questioning. I have in front of me - which is surprising - unaudited financial statements for the year ended 31 December 2013 from the Labour Relations Commission, LRC. Is that normal?

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

No.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Why are they floating around the place then?

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

That is a matter for the Labour Relations Commission. Legislation will normally specify the accounts are to be submitted for audit to the C&AG and the financial statements together with the audit opinion are laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. The issues around annual reporting might be covered by a separate part of the legislation or might be a matter of practice for organisations. I would have to check the legislation.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Would you mind checking?

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

I will check it.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Also, where they are in terms of your priorities now.

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it possible to get an idea from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General of the number of smaller agencies of the State that are to be audited by it that are not yet audited.

Mr. Andrew Harkness:

Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There are statements in today's file, for example, the fishery harbour centres financial statements 31 December 2007, which were signed off on 23 December 2011. There are serious issues therein in the context of what is before us today. If we could get an overview of the number of agencies that are way behind or in which there are difficulties and for which accounts have not been audited such as this one for which we have been waiting for so long, it would help. If there is an issue and we have an overview and account of the extent of the problem, it would help.

Our work programme is on the screen. The business for 13 November has to be confirmed. If members want to bring matters forward, we could deal with them then.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Is NAMA on the schedule yet?

Clerk to the Committee:

NAMA is on the schedule. Its representatives are coming in just before Christmas.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Could we bring them in on that date?

Clerk to the Committee:

They are before the finance committee around that time so it is probably better to keep a bit of distance.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Murphy might not be here. He might be gone like Deputy Harris.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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We have requested the chairperson of the Dublin Docklands Development authority to attend. According to yesterday's newspapers, one of the final acts of the authority before its imminent departure was to dispose of a valuable property on Hanover Quay for €450,000 to U2 without it being advertised publicly. In that context, it would be appropriate to have representatives of the authority before the committee. They are about to wind down. Dublin City Council will take over the STZ with NAMA. It is hardly appropriate that the authority should be disposing of property at this point in time in what seems to be a questionable manner for €450,000. This is an area where one would not purchase a semi-detached residence for that amount. Could we bring that meeting forward?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We will raise the issue with the authority and we can arrange the meeting next week. We will have a reply next week and then we can decide the date when we see when they are available.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Once the authority goes out of existence, what is its answerability to us?

Clerk to the Committee:

I will have to check but it is still an entity which is audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I assume a final set of accounts will have to be produced by that body and until such time as the Comptroller and Auditor General and the committee have finished with it, it will still be an entity. I am open to correction but I will clarify the position for the Deputy for next week's meeting. We will also get a note on that transaction from the DDDA and we will see where we go after that.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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Has the committee heard anything back from Professor Brennan?

Clerk to the Committee:

No.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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When was the correspondence sent?

Clerk to the Committee:

Early September. I will come back to the Deputy on it.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We referred correspondence from residents regarding the Tank Field in Cork.

Clerk to the Committee:

That has been coming in off and on over the past number of years. I will have to get the file out.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to get the file out because of the issues that have been raised, even in recent times, which relate to the spending of taxpayers' money, the ownership of the site and so on. Because it remains unresolved, we need a comprehensive response from the Department of Education and Skills or we need to invite officials in to deal with the issues specific to that school development.

Clerk to the Committee:

That is fine.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We have agreed our agenda for 23 October, which is the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board accounts for 2012.