John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I remind members to turn off their mobile phones. No. 7 is the proposed closure of the Clarkstown long wave transmitter 252. The purpose of the discussion is to engage with senior management of RTE on the rationale of the reported closure of the Clarkstown long wave transmitter 252. I welcome Mr. Jim Jennings, managing director of RTE Radio, and his colleagues, Mr. John Paul Coakley and Mr. Tom McGuire.
By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also advise witnesses that their submissions and opening statements will be published on the committee's website following the meeting.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

I thank the Chairman for inviting us here. We are happy to be here to answer any questions the members might have about the proposed decision. I am joined by Mr. JP Coakley, director of operations, RTE Radio and Mr. Tom McGuire, head of RTE Radio 1.

On 23 September, RTE announced that it would be ceasing its service from the Clarkstown long wave transmitter from 27 October. Yesterday, in an interview with Sean O'Rourke, I said we were willing to reconsider the window we had set in place for the decision and were in the process of doing so. We have had many engagements, online and over the phone, with people in the UK and Ireland about this decision. It is evident from these communications that more time is probably needed to consult with people and communities in the UK. Therefore, we have decided to extend the closure date to 19 January 2015 to more fully engage with people and community groups and assist them in the transition.

The decision to cease any public service is not something RTE takes lightly or without serious consideration. We know such decisions affect audiences who enjoy and rely on RTE’s services. However, we also know the public expects us to manage our operations and services efficiently and evolve our services as technology changes and audiences adapt. In balancing these broad considerations we have come to the decision that now is the right time to cease our long wave Radio 1 service after ten years on air. The decision is part of a process of continuous enhancements and development of RTE services through the adoption of new digital technologies. For example, in 2012, RTE led the switch off of analogue and the switch over to Saorview. The introduction of Saorview greatly improved reception across the country and allowed everyone, regardless of age, means and geographic location, to avail of television services in HD quality.

We have experience in managing switch-overs like this. The launch of SAORVIEW also enabled the State to generate an €875 million dividend from the sale of spectrum and gave a significant boost to electrical retail trade.

This summer RTE and GAA launched GAAGO, a new digital service bringing live championship games to Irish people in over a 120 countries. The final was viewed in 120 countries around the world. It is a partnership with the GAA that has worked well. Later this year RTE will launch an international player which will greatly expand our range of services to the United Kingdom. These are only some of the recent innovations that we are bringing to our audiences. It is fair to say in regard to the Irish Diaspora that RTE has never offered as many services as it does currently.

The decision to cease the long-wave service will result in an annual saving of €250,000. This is an important saving in the context of what we are going through in RTE. I am aware that the committee has had members of RTE discussing the financial restrictions under which we operate and some of the difficult decisions that we have to take. This decision will impact most on listeners in Britain and Northern Ireland. We will set out some of the points surrounding the decision and we might debate those here.

RTE’s long-wave service began in 2004 following the closure of the previous Atlantic 252, a music radio station which Senator Mooney would remember well, and Teamtalk, which filled the interregnum before RTE put Radio 1 on long wave.

With the closure of medium wave, Radio 1 extended its coverage on FM in the North. Up until then, our coverage in the North was not good. We now have 85% coverage in the North of Ireland. We are looking at ways that we might be able to boost that. There are gaps in areas, such as the Glens of Antrim, that are difficult to get into, although anybody who travels in Donegal will note that the RHE signal there is stronger than the Radio 1 signal. Therefore, I think there is something that could be done with that signal, and Mr. Coakley is looking at that.

The Ofcom report noted that listeners have more flexibility and choice than ever before in access to media, and this is due in part to the expansion in the range of devices available, and I suppose the expansion of the Internet and Internet access devices. Digital alternatives to FM radio signals have grown considerably. Television, computers, smartphones and tablets all are, in essence, radios for those who wish to listen.

The Ofcom report also notes that 67% of homes in Northern Ireland have pay television services. Of these services, Sky is the most popular, at 49%. As the committee will be aware, RTÉ Radio 1 is available on channel 0160 on Sky. Radio 1 is also available on Virgin Media, on channel 917, and in 56% of Northern Ireland where SAORVIEW, the free DTT service, is available. In Great Britain, the service is available on Virgin, on Sky, and on FreeSat which has 98% coverage.

In the world of online and mobile, Radio 1 has a host of free services and apps, that are now available but that were not available in 2004. Our popularity among listeners overseas is evidenced by the fact that, monthly, we are now getting 1.5 million live-streams of Radio 1 through our player app. Some 150,000 of those monthly are in the UK. Of course, these figures do not prove that all listeners have the equipment or ability to tune to RTÉ Radio 1 long wave in Northern Ireland and Great Britain, however they show that access to the service has grown since 2004.

While we acknowledge there is differences among the generations in their use of these new technologies, a tipping point has been reached in terms of the use of new technologies on all media. That is not only RTE's view. It is broadcasters' view throughout Europe.

A total of 97% have made the move to digital television over the past two years and the number of people with tablets has increased hugely from 2% to 25%. It is difficult to say with authority how many people in the UK listen to long wave because it is not measured there even by RAJAR or the BBC. We do not measure and it would be prohibitive to engage in a survey of the UK to find out how many people are listening to long wave. The BBC has made the decision to switch off long wave transmitters even though it has Radio 4 on long wave in the UK. The number of long wave enabled radios sold is relatively low in this day and age. The most common way to tune into radio both here and in Europe is through FM. Broadcasters are generally moving away from short and medium wave to digital platforms. For example, of the existing 74 long wave transmission facilities in Europe, 47 have been shut down. That extends from the UK to Russia.

All other platforms provide greater reliability, better quality sound and are less prone to interference. Senator Mooney will be aware that long wave transmissions in the UK are significantly interfered with by Algerian radio, particularly late at night, because they are on the same frequency, 252. That is an issue we cannot address. In summary, we believe long wave to be a relatively expensive, unreliable, poor quality and unpopular platform.

Just as we have a responsibility to constantly evolve and enhance our services, we also have a responsibility to clearly communicate these decisions. We announced this on 23 September and we set a deadline similar to the launch of Saorview. Sometimes a deadline is the best way to find out the number of people who will be impacted. We found with Saorview that the majority of people switched over in the final two weeks leading up to the deadline. However, we recognise that we may not have fully scoped out the alternatives available in the UK. More alternatives have come to light even in the past week and we need more time to investigate them, particularly with BT in the UK..

The RTE information office has set up a helpline. We also have a website to advise people on how to stay tuned and switch services. We are doing a great deal to communicate with people and to find out the impact on a one to one level. We have had a number of communications, which we can go into detail about later, with listeners in the UK on this and we have been teaching them how they can avail of the service with a degree of success.

RTE regrets the disruption to listeners caused by the cessation of long wave broadcasts but we hope the committee will respect that we have to make hard decisions sometimes. Given the context of where the company is financially, as previous RTE delegations have outlined to the committee, all the easy decisions have been made in terms of where we can find cuts. The cuts we need to make have not ceased. There is more work to be done to ensure RTE breaks even in 2014 and into 2015.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Jennings. All of us were taken by surprise, as were the people affected, by the fact that it was announced in September that the broadcasts would cease in October. Mr. Jennings mentioned that might have been done to concentrate minds and gauge the reaction. The reaction, from our perspective, has increased significantly in recent days, as the public has become aware of it.

Members, through their involvement in the community and meeting people in Britain over the years, know that keeping the connection with Ireland is hugely important and RTE has been the lifeline for many people, especially those who might not be technologically aware or otherwise.

I welcome Mr. Jennings's opening remarks that RTE will delay this until January because more consultation needs to take place. The Irish in Britain organisation, in particular, has been in contact with us with us with signatures and so on. This is gaining momentum. There needs to be a clear way in which that element, which might be small but it is important, can be further consulted and their views can be taken on board. If it is possible to accommodate keeping that connection with RTE, the national broadcaster, that is fine but from what we are hearing and from talking to other Members, that is not possible at the moment.

Is there any alternative? Mr. Jennings spoke about the cost. I understand it transmits 24-hours per day currently. Could a compromise be reached in that it could continue to transmit but from 7 a.m. to sometime in the evening when, I presume, the largest tranche of people would be listening?

Mr. Jennings mentioned that the BBC is going to get rid of long wave. I do not think it has made any announcements in that area so far. Again, some of the people who have been in contact with us would say that it is doing it in a more planned way than has happened here.

I am not the most advanced technologically but digital radio coverage in Ireland seems to cover only 52% of the country whereas in Britain, it is something like 97%. Is that related to this? Why could that not be expanded? Could that be a solution?

Mr. Jim Jennings:

In regard to shortening the window available, I presume the Chairman is asking that if we broadcast from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., would it save us any costs. Mr. Coakley is the expert in terms of the technology.

Mr. John Paul Coakley:

These are big pieces of kit and, unfortunately, two things are relevant. Apart from somebody having to be there, turning them on and off is not really viable and it tends to damage the equipment over time. From an electrical point of view, power at night is much cheaper. Having looked at these options before, one does not save a whole of lot relative to the overall cost.

In 2011, the BBC announced that when its main long wave transmitter on 198kHz in Droitwich fails, as it will, it will not be replaced. It is a relatively old installation and it has said it will not fix it. That is its current position. That is a de facto closure announcement in my book.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

It also said in March that it would close the service and would not continue with it.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Could RTE continue to operate until Clarkstown goes out of operation?

Mr. John Paul Coakley:

With respect, the way to make a decision is not to wait for failure but to be clear-----

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It gives us a chance for a solution to be found.

Mr. John Paul Coakley:

Unfortunately, that does not save us the running costs of €250,000, which is the issue there. With regard to digital radio coverage, the Chairman is right. In the United Kingdom, digital radios now account for 60% of all digital listening. In London, for example, digital listening now exceeds 50% of all listening. We took the position as early as 2004, but more recently in 2008, that until the commercial sector is part of digital radio in this country, we have slightly less than half a proposition.

We believe that DAB and DAB+ are part of the future of FM in this country, but until there is a joined-up sectoral move, it is not the time for further roll-out. There are also, as Mr. Jennings mentioned earlier, financial constraints.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

We have been in discussion with Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI, with independent and commercial radio operators, trying to get them on board with DAB, but they are not terribly interested in it. There is a cost-----

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What are the implications for the independent-----

Mr. Jim Jennings:

There is a cost involved and they believe that the FM platform is superior. They believe that FM coverage is so good in Ireland that they do not need to be on DAB. We would like to have them on board. We have made representations to the Department on this, to see whether the Department would be able to encourage them to get on board. It would be great if we had independent radio and RTE on the same platform, on DAB. We are currently in discussions with IBI about an all-Ireland radio player, which has led to an agreement between ourselves and the IBI on this matter. That is a positive move from our point of view, so our next step would be to try to encourage them onto DAB. If they were on DAB, the service would be rolled out to the whole country.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Finally, is there a method of getting information to and consulting with the people, particularly in the UK?

Mr. Jim Jennings:

It is. We are engaging with them on a daily basis, because they are calling us and emailing us. We have been in discussion with people in the UK, with the Irish Post, and with various other journalists in the UK. Mr. Coakley is leading a delegation to the UK next week. He has arranged a number of meetings with the various organisations to discuss what we might do and whether there are better solutions than we have at the moment. We are doing all we can in terms of engaging with community groups in the UK. We have a good relationship with some of them, so we hope to be able to identify where the pockets are and what we could do for those people, in an effort to maintain the service for them. I know, because I have worked in RTE for a long time, that RTE is often accused of not listening to people. We are listening to people on this one. We accept that the window was too short and we will engage with people on this issue.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the representatives from RTE. I should declare my interest. I know it is stating the obvious, but I spent all of my broadcasting career i the public service. I have a very strong empathy with RTE. I know most of their representatives here. It does not give me any great pleasure to be in a situation where I am effectively attempting to reflect and respond to what the Chairman referred to in his own remarks, to a huge upsurge of reaction, much of it emotional as well as practical, about the decision that RTE has taken.
The core of the decision goes to the relationship between the Irish establishment, such as it is - and that includes RTE - and the Irish diaspora in Britain. Those who represent this community see it as an insult, as a slap in the face, as a shutting of the door. It is full of symbolism, apart from the practicalities. Earlier this morning I took a call from Ms Sally Mulready, who was appointed by the President, Mr. Michael D. Higgins, to the Council of State. She is a voice for the Irish in Britain and has been long involved, particularly, in helping the aged in Britain. I understand that she will probably be meeting with Mr. Coakley's delegation when it visits the UK shortly, which I welcome. It is very important that RTE consult as widely as possible with the Irish community in Britain when it sends a delegation abroad.
To give an indication to the members of the committee of the depth of feeling there is, the two major newspapers that service the Irish diaspora in Britain are theIrish Post and the Irish World. TheIrish Postran a headline last week stating that "RTE [is] accused of 'ignoring diaspora' with longwave axe".

It quotes people such as the author of "A Hidden History - Irish in Liverpool", Tony Birtill, who stated long wave plays a big part in elderly people's lives in the Irish community. Mr. Birtill stated, "If you go around to a lot of houses in Liverpool, they’ll have it on permanently to 252", and that, "Many such people live alone and RTE 1 on long wave is a very important means for them to stay in touch with Ireland, and the outside world generally". This encapsulates the general view all of us have seen in the e-mails and phone calls we have received. An individual known to all the witnesses, and in particular Mr. Coakley because he has communicated for years on digital, is Enda O'Kane, who worked as an engineer with RTE. His view is that embracing digital audio broadcasting has not come about primarily because it is not seen as a viable option. It has not developed. I ask Mr. Coakley to correct me if I am wrong because I am not a technical person like the Chairman. I do not believe the BBC has embraced DAB. It is a controversial option and I am not at all surprised that independent radio in Ireland has not embraced it because of the question marks surrounding it.

There is symbolism attached to this, and it is very important that RTE as the national broadcaster addresses these issues because they will arise, as reflected in what has already been stated publicly. This is how Irish people see it. One man who wrote to me stated he thought it was a disgraceful decision. Another man stated it made him very angry and that it was a smack in the face for the Irish in Britain and made a nonsense of President Higgins's remarks during his State visit in May about how much modern Ireland appreciates its emigrants. He stated the Irish establishment likes to pick their pockets as tourists and investors but is unwilling to provide them with an adequate radio link. This is very emotional but is reflective of what people think and say and cannot be ignored. This is what the witnesses will get when they visit England.

Approximately two weeks ago, the committee received a letter from the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment of the Northern Ireland Assembly about this issue, such is its concern. I had not factored in the Northern Ireland dimension. The witnesses stated there is 85% coverage, but one man stated RTE FM reception in the North is only good within 25 miles of the Border, and that when one drives up the A1 the FM signal goes by the time one reaches Sprucefield, so to listen to RTE radio in Belfast in the car, one needs the long wave service. Will the witnesses address this in particular? He spoke about it being a short-sighted penny-pinching decision. Obviously it is having an impact in Northern Ireland given that the Northern Ireland Assembly committee saw fit to write to this committee. The witnesses need to address this issue with regard to long wave.

Mr. Maguire made a very interesting point. When Mr. Jennings was on the radio yesterday with Seán O'Rourke, he spoke about the 252 service being off the air for a couple of days. Mr. Maguire is quoted as stating that due to technical problems earlier this year, long wave RTE was off the air for an entire Sunday and only seven complaints were received. I thought about this as a former emigrant. Emigrants are somewhat disconnected from mainstream Ireland. The chances are that many people were probably very upset about the fact it went off the air but they did not know how to complain or to where to make a complaint, especially given the demographics. They did not know how one complains to RTE. Perhaps they thought something was wrong with the radio because it was off for a few hours. The demographic listening are not people who are into satellite dishes, DAB or other digital platforms.

I suggest the overwhelming majority of people who listen to long wave in the UK do so in their cars. There is huge trade between Britain and Ireland, and anyone who travels over and back to Britain, such as truck drivers, people on holidays or commercial traffic, listens. The first thing I do when I use the ferry after medium wave goes is to switch to long wave to pick up RTE.

One will get it as far away as London. London generally has been a difficult transmission area. I am sorry to go on about this but it is so important for the Irish in Britain that I want to try to marshal as much strong feeling as possible about it. We are here to try to reflect their views. I welcome the fact that RTE has deferred the decision and that it is going to embark on a consultative process with the Irish communities in Britain or those who represent them. Why does it cost €250,000 for what is effectively a re-broadcast of an existing service? There is no new programming on 252.

This is not just an operational matter. This is a policy issue for the Government. I may sound partisan but the Government appointed a Minister of State with responsibility for the diaspora. He is aware of this. If RTE has a financial difficulty in this regard, the Government should step in, as the British Government does in funding the BBC overseas service, which offsets any reduction in its long wave service because it will continue to operate a service to its diaspora.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

I take on board everything Senator Mooney has said. We have heard a great deal of this from the people involved and will hear more of it over the next couple of weeks when we are in the United Kingdom.

Cost is a factor. We have some serious decisions to make about the running of RTE. Luckily we did not take a hit in yesterday’s budget. We are still struggling with the €5 million hit in last year’s budget.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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RTE should take that up with the Department of Social Protection.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

That is making it very difficult for us to break even this year. It took us two years to find a way to replace our London correspondent, which we are doing, but we had to do it by finding cutbacks in our European office, by renting out floor space in Belfast and finding a space in ITN in the UK. We have to adapt and move with the times in respect of these changes.

If the Senator is saying that the Department could come up with €250,000 to pay for long wave in the UK, I could take that decision back to the executive board in RTE, where this was discussed, and the RTE board, where this decision was ratified some time ago. If and when that happens we can deal with it.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I am flying a kite.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

I understand that. I am not trying to pull Senator Mooney's kite down. The Minister of State has been in discussions with RTE on this issue and is looking for possible solutions. Part of the process we will be involved in over the next few months will be to consider the best solution to the difficulties that present themselves. Mr. Coakley would be better equipped to answer some of the Senator’s questions about reception in Liverpool and London.

Mr. John Paul Coakley:

Long wave service is only ten years old. Prior to 2004 RTE radio’s transmission ended at Birmingham. Since then and more recently one can get RTE radio globally. We have seen very strong growth in those platforms and we are reaching people in a way we have not done previously. The long wave service reception is unreliable.

It dies at night because of the large transmitter in Tipaza, Algeria. It is prone to interference from a host of electrical signals, as anybody who has ever fried a hair dryer near a long wave radio will know. I would say that in terms of every other option available to people it has a higher quality and opens up a wider world of choice. This is a transition we are all making in terms of digital technologies, and to a certain extent this transition is resonant with that.

In terms of the gentleman the Senator mentioned and a particular view on DAB, I have been following the development of DAB since 2004 when the acronym was dead and buried, so to speak, and I am pleased to see that there is a resurgence of development and interest in DAB throughout Europe. The reason for that is the need for a digital terrestrial version of radio, similar to the need for a digital terrestrial television service, and to ensure these things are sovereign, efficient, offer more choice and are of better quality.

I take issue with the idea that DAB is failing in the United Kingdom. I mentioned earlier the listenership figure for DAB, which is two thirds of all digital listening. Also, in recent months the UK regulator, Ofcom, has announced the competition for a second commercial DAB multiplex throughout the country. That is not an indicator of a failing proposition.

In terms of FM coverage in Northern Ireland, I disagree that FM dies at Springfield. I have driven to Belfast with an interest in hearing our reception. As Mr. Jennings stated, we believe we are available in 85% of the region. No network is perfect, and our FM network in Northern Ireland is not perfect. As the Senator knows, we are constrained to our own jurisdiction in respect of transmission so that is something we should continue to try to develop. We should also look at the DAB network in Northern Ireland to see if there is something we can do from the Radio 1 point of view.

The vast majority of our calls and contacts are from Great Britain rather than from Northern Ireland. Approximately 75% of total calls are from our listeners in Great Britain.

With regard to the cost, this structure is almost 1,000 feet high. The requirement is that this entire structure would be fed sufficient electricity that it would radiate as a structure. That is the scale of what 2RN, our network arm, is doing and that in large measure is the reason it costs €250,000 a year.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

The latest Nielsen figure for the number of DAB radios in Ireland is 400,000. It is a system that is used widely.

Mr. Tom McGuire:

From a Radio 1 point of view it is important that it is a two-way connection between the service and the people on both sides and that Radio 1 can reflect the lives of people living in the UK and around the world. Globally, we have been able to do that in the past eight to ten years as the service has grown. The people have been collaborative with us in terms of when they write to us. A man in Berkshire wrote to me yesterday and as I read the letter, I realised this man had Freesat, and we spoke with him. That is part of the transition that has to happen. We need to engage with community groups and the GAA in the UK because in terms of the community we are talking about, and as someone who has connections to a fifth generation growing up in Cheshire, we need to be able to liaise with those people and show them that this service is available but in a different way.

It is interesting that the majority of the notes we got were sent by e-mail so one could say we already have a connection, but we need to explore that and connect properly. Similarly, if people have a telephone they are only one remove from being able to get some of the services of which we speak. We are committed to having that and continuing it in whatever way we can. This month two of the documentaries we had nominated for PPI awards were made in the UK. One of them was about London GAA and its success in Connacht last year. The audience in Derby is as important to us as the audience in Drumshanbo, with respect. We need to be with people. The "John Murray Show" is leaving today to do the programme from London on Friday. That is important. We want to make every effort to maintain and grow that audience.

Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I thank the Chair and welcome the delegation on what is an interesting debate. I am an RTE radio listener. By and large I compliment the delegation on the improvements made particularly in the area of documentaries and music. It is not the only radio station I listen to. I listen to a good deal of radio because television is rather boring and has gone tabloid. One can hide in one's radio much better. I am a great admirer of the BBC in terms of the quality of its programmes and in many respects RTE has managed to match it and exceed it. I am not so sure about some of its current affairs programmes during the period of the collapse of our little country. At times, some of those who were broadcasting current affairs threw most of our children out of the country as it was so morbid but sin scéal eile.

Like Senator Paschal Mooney I took the boat to England in the 1980s. I was fascinated that the generation ahead of me had their radios welded on one station. In the beginning I thought it was sad that people would be that fixed. These were people, aunts and uncles, who left Ireland during the 1930s and 1940s, and who raised British children but still had their radio welded on this one station. That was remarkable. The music they listened to was music that my generation did not listen to; we were trying to get something louder. It is a fact of life, that is the way people were. That applied not only in London but elsewhere. I met friends in Glasgow and Edinburgh who have a huge Donegal connection and the fixation with the one station was an exact replica. I used to wonder why people, British citizens, would listen to the "News at One" and current affairs on what was going in Ireland. I came to the conclusion, given that these people would not move the dial to other stations, which I will not mention, that the older the person the more precious RTE was to them, especially at weekends.

In various workplaces I met Irish people who, on a Monday morning - I am not sure if they talked about Senator Paschal Mooney's programme - certainly talked about other programmes, many of the names of which I did not know. In the 1980s people in the workplace talked about what was on RTE and I am sure that continued into the 1990s and it was precious to them. I have no doubt that in time the long wave transmitter will eventually fade out. I am not here to argue that point with the delegation but what is being missed is that there is this generation of a particular age cohort that no matter what one does, they do not send e-mails, etc. That is the reality.

I think all of us know that there are many Irish people who live independently and, maybe, in isolated conditions and the one connection they have with the home base is the RTE station, which happens to be on long wave transmitter. We are debating something that is pretty much for a generation behind us and which treats this station as very precious. It will eventually fade out but like others I welcome the fact that it will continue into next year.

I am quite sure there is sufficient talent within the financial sector of RTE to find some ways to make the necessary saving. I could suggest some but I do not want to be on the "Six One News". I will leave that to my esteemed colleague who set the house on fire the last time RTE was here. I am sure it can find other ways to do this.

It goes back to the generational aspect and the preciousness of the connection between this country and those who had to leave it. To repeat, it will fade itself out, so perhaps RTE should reconsider this. A small number of years will solve this automatically.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

I thank the Deputy for his nice comments about RTE radio, in particular Radio 1. We always like to hear nice things as well as the bad things we have to hear. I will take his remarks on board and will bring them back to the station. We will certainly consider them over the next few months, in particular in our discussions with people in the UK.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. I will not repeat what has been said. We have all received the e-mails and we all understand the level of hurt among Irish people abroad who cherish that connection they have with this country. Some of them feel we pay them lip-service. We talk about how precious the diaspora is and yet we make a decision like this which cuts off an important communication link they have with home. I will not go into the details.

A good point was made that many of these messages have been sent by e-mail but not all of them have been sent by the person making the complaint because I match the sender's name with the e-mailer's address. Obviously, some of these messages are going to people who use e-mail to get their point across. I would not like anyone to think that they are sitting there with laptops sending e-mails about long wave 252.

I am glad RTE accepts there was inadequate analysis of the impact of the decision it made. It has accepted that by virtue of the fact it has now announced that the end date is being extended to 19 January 2015 in order to allow time for discussions with individuals and organisations in Northern Ireland and in Britain. If there was a flawed analysis of the impact analysis, was there also a flawed analysis of the possible technical solution?

RTE states that it costs €250,000 per annum to operate this service. I share Senator Mooney's dismay that it costs €250,000 to run a different platform. It seems extraordinary. I am not a technician or an electronics or a broadcasting engineer. I do not know whether long wave can co-exist on the same mast as FM. I do not know the answer to that question but I assume somebody in RTE does. I also assume these issues have been considered.

I do not know whether long wave and FM can share the same power or whether there is a way to dramatically reduce the €250,000 per annum operational cost, whether it continues at Clarkstown or relocates to an existing mast somewhere else. I understand RTE must cut costs and that it is doing so. It provides a good service.

However, we all complain about individual aspects of the service.

I was disappointed that this decision was made and that the first I knew about it was when I started getting e-mails from residents in the Six Counties and in Britain. It was hastily done on flawed analysis. While I welcome that there are to be further discussions, it is clear that it is not consultation as to whether this was a good or a bad proposal, but simply a discussion on possible alternatives. I hope that the possible alternatives will not turn away many who value this connection with the country so much.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

There are a couple of points. I can ask my colleagues to respond to a couple of others.

On the finances in RTE, we are in a position where, by and large, every decision that we make has an impact in terms of cuts. I would not say it is death by 1,000 cuts but we are cutting a lot of things around the organisation. Whether it is television programmes not returning or restrictions in certain areas in radio, no matter the cuts they impact on somebody and some part of our service. I would love to be managing director of RTE radio in a period where we have enough money to do what we want to do but I am not alone in the country in struggling with that issue. Probably, in terms of their constituents and the sort of representations that they receive, those in this room would be more aware of it than I am.

We do not pretend that any cuts that we make do not have an impact. What we do is try to find the best possible solution to any cuts or look to see is there an alternative way to offer a programme or service. In some cases, we do not have an alternative to some of the cuts that we have made.

My colleagues in other parts of the organisation, whether in digital, in television or in news, could bore the members to tears with the impact the imposition of the cuts and the lack of funding for RTE is having in terms of our services. Before my time, RTE presented a document to the Government and the committee on a long-term strategy for RTE in terms of its funding and looking forward in terms of the services it could provide. That document, which was our strategy, contained a base-case scenario and what we could do if we had more funding. RTE is currently operating at €14 million less than the base case that we presented to the committee. That is a difficulty for us, and the proposed broadcasting charge is not on the immediate horizon.

We are in a period where we will have to contract to do our business. That is the way it is. It would not be proper for RTE to operate a business knowing that it will have huge losses. That is not the way we are set up. We cannot operate like that.

Last year, we broke even. Given the impositions that I mentioned earlier, we are struggling to break even this year. It will be a consistent struggle for RTE until it is decided what is the adequate funding for the public service broadcaster in this country.

There has been a number of independent reports. We are up to five now from various different sources, including Oliver & Ohlbaum, NewERA and the BAI, all of which recommended that RTE is underfunded, and we agreed with that.

None of us wants to make cuts. None of us wants to have to make these decisions. We would much rather be in a position where we are not doing this. That said, we must ensure that the cuts that we make are the right cuts for our listeners, our viewers and those who use our services.

Deputy Colreavy, in his point on the e-mail correspondence, is correct. In fact, the e-mail correspondences are the easiest ones to resolve because sometimes, as Mr. McGuire stated, they do not know that there is an easy solution for them, there and then. The queries that are not easy to resolve are from those who do not have e-mail, do not have a mobile telephone or do not have FreeSat, Virgin or Sky. That is the purpose of this exercise in respect of consulting with listeners.

It is to identify what is that number, who they are and whether this can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. In a sense, the Deputy's point is correct but the easy bit to resolve actually concerns those who contact us via e-mail.

When the Deputy mentioned the Northern Ireland issue, I realised I had not addressed an issue raised in the last question concerning the correspondence from the Northern Ireland committee. We have been engaging with it and have sent to it a detailed response. I note that committee has asked this joint committee to pick up this issue with us but we are also quite prepared to engage with them, if they wish, and to visit them on the issue. As for the technical issues regarding the mast and whether long wave could be put on to it, I will defer to my colleague, Mr. Coakley, in this regard.

Mr. John Paul Coakley:

The quick answer to the question is unfortunately, it cannot. Modern technologies such as FM, DAB and DTT can share the same masts, as they do at present on Three Rock in Dublin. However, long wave masts can do only one thing.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That answers that question. We will move on to Deputy O'Donovan.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I thank the representatives from RTE for their attendance. From the point of view of the Irish in Britain, this is the second botched announcement from RTE within two years, the first being the closure of the London office. I understand it has been advertised this morning that RTE now wishes to reopen it and to base a person in ITN. There is a press release on RTE's website to the effect that it intends to recruit somebody, which probably is an acknowledgement that the closure should not have happened in the first place. I note that considerable disappointment was expressed at the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly that alternatives were not considered when that office was closed and that alternative savings were not made.

I agree with Deputy Maloney that a sledgehammer was used to crack a nut because this probably would have gone away naturally, for want of a better expression, in any event. I am aware it was a huge connection, having worked in the United Kingdom over summer holidays and having stayed with an uncle who had emigrated in the 1950s, in whose home the radio was never turned off and the television was never turned on. Regardless of whether it was Munster championships or even weather or sea area forecasts, these were huge things in the lives of those people. They are of a generation in which the only tablets they get come from a pharmacy and as for asking them to go online or do anything like that, it simply is an absolute foreign language.

In respect of the cost of €250,000 associated with this service, one point that has not been mentioned heretofore concerns RTE's advertising stream, through which it is co-financed. I imagine that those who advertise with RTE do so in the knowledge that their advertising is also going out to a wider community of people outside this jurisdiction, including Northern Ireland and Britain and that there is a potential return for RTE's advertisers from the money they pay RTE for advertising. It is not simply advertising within the Twenty-six Counties but is a much wider remit. The amount of money involved is relatively small when one considers RTE's total revenue or its total income. I have stated here previously that when one considers some of the salaries RTE is paying, getting a position within RTE on a prime-time television or radio slot is like winning the lotto because it does not get any better than that. No other broadcasters in Britain or Ireland are paying as much as RTE still does, relative to the size of the country. The population of Britain is 20 times that of Ireland and one should consider the salary base there.

One should then consider the service that is provided to what is, by and large, an elderly cohort of people in Britain and Northern Ireland, who are not technologically adept and who do not have the skills set to change. I do not dispute the figure of €250,000 that is required to provide the service, because it probably represents a fair assessment. However, that sum will be taken and RTE proposes to get rid of this service without any consideration of the damage it might do to the advertising base, for instance, for those who no longer will have the wherewithal to listen. Regardless of whether Barry's tea or Lyon's tea is being advertised on the radio in the United Kingdom, this is a cohort of people who buy such products and who always will and they are being sold to over the system RTE now proposes to close down. As I stated at the outset, RTE made a botched job of the announcement of the closure of the London office.

That was evident when President Higgins visited the UK and not only did RTE not have a London office, but the whole of Montrose was transposed to Windsor. Even the weather forecast was broadcast from there during the few days of the visit. Everybody was dispatched there, highlighting the fact that the office should never have closed in the first instance. RTE is being penny mean and pound foolish and it is not seeing the bigger picture. If €250,000 cannot be sourced in the organisation without discommoding a significant group of people who have been loyal to the station for a long number of years and to its advertisers, who, in turn, have been loyal to the station, it needs to look at this again before making another bags of an announcement when it comes to the UK.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

I presume all advertisers advertise with RTE radio for all our services in the knowledge that they are broadcast in the UK. That is how we sell our advertising. We sell it in packages across different stations, including 2FM, our digital radio stations and Radio 1.

People love to talk about salaries. The director general has appeared before the committee to talk about the salaries of our presenters and has engaged with the Deputy on it. He knows I will not repeat the figures in terms of the cuts and so on. Regarding his comment that nobody else pays these salaries, it is clear that of the top ten best paid radio presenters in Ireland, six work in the independent sector----

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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But they are not funded through the television licence----

Mr. Jim Jennings:

-----and four work in RTE. There is a market for radio talent.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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-----and they are not working for the public service broadcaster funded by the taxpayer.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

Yes, but the Deputy's point that we are overpaying is not true. I do not agree with it. If we were, we would have paid the money to keep Pat Kenny on Radio 1 but we did not. People have different views on this.

I agree with the Deputy regarding the service and the decisions we have to make. I take his points on board.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Maloney stated RTE is precious to people but when one takes people for granted, one loses them. Radio is experiencing a golden age currently. The hurling commentary this year was phenomenal and it was much better to listen to on radio. There is also good stuff happening in the independent radio sector. RTE no longer has a monopoly on public service broadcasting and it should not have a monopoly on the licence fee. In my county, 60% of us listen to Mid-West Radio because the delegation's predecessors took us for granted 30 or 40 years ago.
I refer to an issue that has been discussed by the committee and with which Mr. Jennings will be familiar, which is the broadcast of The Late Late Showin 2009 regarding the circumstances of the murder of Sebastian Creane.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can ask a question but the committee has been dealing with the issue. A complaint was made to RTE and it was dealt with. We have also engaged with RTE on it and we are currently in communication with the family, whom I have met. We will refer the issue to the BAI. I will understand if the witnesses cannot provide an answer today.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I am trying to get into Mr. Jennings's mind because he was the producer of the programme at the time. I will walk through the sequence of events. On 16 August 2009, Sebastian Creane was murdered in his home. His brother was seriously injured and the assailant committed suicide outside their home on the same night.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should take it that people know the case. I am not sure about the protocol of naming individuals.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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All right. This incident happened-----

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I think all of us are aware of the-----

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The timeline is important. The funeral took place on 24 August. He is from Ballina and his family is friends with mine. On 23 September - I know this is a matter of contention - the family was informed by the gardaí that there was to be a "Late Late Show" on the circumstances surrounding what happened at their home on 16 August. We have a mother grieving the loss of her son, worrying about the health of her only other son, trying to keep her family together, who is forced into sending a letter on 1 October, less than two months after her son was murdered, to the then Director General of RTE to try and stop this episode from going ahead. As the executive producer, Mr. Jennings wrote to Nuala Creane in response to the letter she wrote to Cathal Goan. He emphasised that it was not his intention to add to the immense hurt and distress visited upon her family. I hope none of us in this room ever has to walk the road that the Creane family is walking.

With the utmost respect to Mr. Jennings, how could he have imagined that putting this out in front of 500,000 people would not add to the distress and trauma of the family at the time? This is a public service broadcaster - and, as Deputy Maloney said, it is precious to this nation - and Mr. Jennings decided that the trauma and distress of one family would be highlighted with no regard for the trauma and distress of the other family involved in this. He said he was acutely aware of the sensitivities involved, but insisted on proceeding with the programme that night. He did not at any stage acknowledge the grief caused by that decision to the Creane family. He said that he wanted to give the members of the other family the opportunity to tell their story and raise the issues they wished to raise. He at no stage has actually acknowledged the distressed he has caused and is continuing to cause to the Creane family.

There is an inquest under way. Approximately 500,000 people would have watched that programme and the immediate coverage which came on the back of that programme and of the interview done that night focused on one specific aspect of the case, which then became the narrative of the case. One specific aspect of a very complex case became the accepted public narrative of the case as a direct consequence of the "Late Late Show" that night. One family's story was highlighted.

I have been struggling to understand the decision of Mr. Jennings and his team to go ahead with that interview when they knew that the mother of a young man who had been murdered was not able to do that. They forced her into trying to park her grief so as that she could take on RTE. As well as having to take on this mountain of grief, because of their decision Mrs. Creane also had to deal with RTE. Yes, the public service broadcaster is precious to this country, but when it tramples over people in the way it has done to Nuala Creane, Jay Creane, Dylan Creane and the memory of Seb Creane, that is when we begin to lose respect for it.

I want to acknowledge the work of the Chairman in trying to pursue this matter. We are only able to pursue it because of the work of the independent broadcaster TV3. Hiding behind the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland's statement that RTE is in compliance still does not answer my question. What was going on that Mr. Jennings decided, six weeks after this horrific event, that it would make for good television?

Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Before anyone else speaks, is this in order? I know a little bit about the facts but we have an agenda. I do not know about other people, but if-----

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is what I stated at the beginning. Any Deputy can raise issues but - I mentioned it earlier - if Mr. Jennings or anyone else does not wish to address them here, I would ask him to get back separately to Deputy Calleary on it.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

Yes, I could do that. I was not aware that this was going to be raised today. I understand that the committee has been in contact with RTE through the Chairman on this matter.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I wanted to state that at the outset.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

That is being handled by another part of the organisation in terms of broadcast compliance but also by television management and legal affairs.

I am not sure what more I can add here. I am prepared to talk to Deputy Calleary on the issue. As he probably knows, RTE, in correspondence with their lawyers recently on it, has offered to speak to the Creane family about it if they wish.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It might be better if we end the discussion and if there is direct communication.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

If the Deputy wants to talk to me privately I would be more than willing to do so.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I let it go ahead when I became aware of it because it was an issue being dealt with.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

It is on the agenda and may be on the agenda for another meeting with RTE. Maybe other people could come here to answer questions on some of the other aspects.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Jennings is in charge of broadcasting.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to be fair to everybody, including the family. It has been aired.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Jennings, Mr. McGuire and Mr. Coakley.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was just about to do it.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry about that. I think I already did it. With the agreement of the Chair, I would be grateful if the witnesses might inform the committee of the outcome of the consultations in London.

Mr. Jim Jennings:

Absolutely.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending and answering the question. Many people were caught on the blind side by it and we were reacting to the communications we received a week ago. Today we were all trying to find a solution that might allow the problem to go away, if possible. I welcome the window given and it should be used for the consultation with and education of people and to see if it is possible to reach a solution that would be acceptable to all sides. A compliment is being paid to RTE in that the service is so important to so many people across the water.