Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 17 July 2014

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health and Children

Update on Children and Youth Issues: Minister for Children and Youth Affairs

9:30 am

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I remind members and people in the Visitors Gallery to switch off their mobile telephones as they interfere with the proceedings of the meeting. The subject of today's meeting is children and youth affairs and I welcome the new Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Reilly. He was before the committee only last week as Minister for Health, but his return is very welcome. I also welcome Mr. Jim Breslin, Secretary General of the Department, Ms Mary Hogan and Mr. Alan Savage.

Deputies Regina Doherty, Mitchell O'Connor and Fitzpatrick have sent their apologies for their absence. Niamh Harmon is leaving this committee to go to the committee on the banking inquiry. On behalf of the committee I thank her for her tremendous commitment, professionalism and dedication to this committee. She has been a great asset to the committee and I wish her well in her new position.

This meeting is our quarterly meeting with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. Members have submitted questions in advance and the written replies have been returned to them. If members make a reference to the questions, they should also refer to the number of the question.

I remind those in attendance about privilege. Witnesses are protected by privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice and ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Minister to make his opening remarks.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the committee for this opportunity address it. I know the Chairman might have a difficult job keeping the unruly visitors in the Visitors Gallery quiet, all one of them.

On a serious note, I am very pleased to update the Joint Committee on Health and Children in support of its quarterly review of my Department's work. Today's meeting provides me with my first opportunity to meet with the committee in my new capacity as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and I look forward to continued engagement with the committee on the wide range of issues under my Department's remit.
As members know, the former Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, the first Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, fully embraced the role of Minister, setting out her clear intention to implement the commitments in our programme for Government and forging ahead with an important and ambitious agenda. My colleague, Deputy Charlie Flanagan, during his short time in the Department, advanced a number of matters and took a strong leading role in progressing towards a Commission of Inquiry into Mother and Baby Homes. I am determined to continue the momentum that has been created and to press ahead on a range of fronts.
I want to bring the committee up-to-date on the full range of developments in the Department of Children and Youth Affairs over the last quarter. It is now more than six months since the establishment of Tusla, the Child and Family Agency. The establishment of Tusla was notable in many respects, namely, in achieving a significant programme for Government commitment relating to children, in bringing together a range of child and family services into a more cohesive and co-ordinated structure; in ring-fencing funding of €609 million for services for children and families and, crucially, in improving accountability to the Government and the taxpayer, for such services and funding.
In recent weeks my predecessor, Deputy Charlie Flanagan, issued the first performance framework for the consideration of Tusla. The performance framework provides policy guidance, direction and prioritisation parameters for the preparation by its board of the Tusla corporate plan. I expect the outcome of this engagement to be an agreed three-year corporate plan which is both ambitious and achievable. I accept that challenges lie ahead for the agency, which is continuing to progress a range of important service reforms under a comprehensive change agenda.
In regard to the national children detention facilities project, work is continuing on the construction of new facilities at Oberstown in County Dublin. The first three residential units, intended to provide for the transfer of responsibility for 17 year old boys from the adult prison system to Oberstown, will be completed this year. I recently visited the site with my predecessor and we were both very impressed with progress and with the scale and complexity of what is involved. Completion of this project will meet the programme for Government commitment to end the detention of children in prisons, something about which this committee is very concerned. My officials are working with the Public Appointments Service on the associated care staff recruitment programme, with the intention that new staff will be deployed for orientation and training on a staged basis during 2014.
Later in the year, I intend to present a Bill to the Oireachtas to amend certain provisions of the Children Act 2001. This will provide for the merging of the three existing children detention schools into a single legal entity and will also address a number of legal and policy issues associated with managing all children under the age of 18 on that site.
In advance of the appearance of the former Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, before the committee in April, she published the Children First Bill 2014 and subsequently introduced the Bill on Second Stage to the Dáil on 30 April 2014. The Bill will place elements of the Children First National Guidance on a statutory basis and impose a duty on certain specific individuals to report child protection concerns to Tusla. It will also improve child protection arrangements in organisations providing services to children, requiring each to produce an organisation-specific child safeguarding statement.
Child protection must be high on the agenda in all sectors of society and must be in our minds in all our dealings with children. There is no greater testament to this and justification for such an approach than the litany of harrowing reports on child protection that have been published over the past number of years. The children first legislation is designed to complement and enhance a range of established and more recent enactments in the complex arena of child protection. I look forward to engaging with Members of both Houses during the parliamentary process to enact this important piece of legislation.
In April of this year the new National Policy Framework for Children and Young People 2014-2020, entitled Better Outcomes: Brighter Futures, was launched. This is the first overarching national policy framework spanning children and young people from birth to age 24 years. It sets out the Government’s objectives for improving children’s and young people’s lives over the period 2014 to 2020 and how we intend to achieve these objectives. We have worked to establish a shared set of outcomes for children and young people and identify a range of commitments in place across Government and progress these based on a structured, systematic and outcomes-focused approach. There is no doubt that enhancing children's and young people's lives will have long-term positive impacts for the individuals themselves and society in general.
A structure has been established to guide and support the delivery of the framework in the form of a consortium of high level officials from across Departments and agencies, together with key representatives from the soon to be established advisory council, which comprises NGO stakeholders. The consortium, chaired by the Secretary General of my Department, has met on two occasions, most recently last Friday, 11 July. The consortium will report to the Cabinet Committee on Social Policy on this whole of Government approach.
Following completion of Better Outcomes: Brighter Futures, work is continuing on the development of Ireland's first ever early years strategy, which I intend to launch later this year. A total of €3 million in capital funding was set aside in 2014 for community not-for-profit child care services, parent and toddler groups and childminders. On Tuesday of this week, I announced the allocation of €2.5 million to 163 grantees in the community not-for-profit child care sector. This represents funding for essential repairs, maintenance or refurbishment works and also for works to improve energy ratings within facilities.
New national quality standards for early years services will form part of the new regulatory environment and will provide the basis against which services will be inspected and reported on. New training and mentoring supports for services are also being put in place as part of the quality agenda. In March of this year, the former Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, launched a learner fund, totalling €3 million over two years, to support staff in early years services who need to up-skill to meet new qualification requirements.
A national strategy on children and young people's participation in decision-making is being developed under the national policy framework for children and young people and will be published in 2014. Considerable progress has been made in the development of this strategy, including bilateral meetings with key Departments and agencies. Consultation with the non-Government sector is also planned in the coming weeks. I want to welcome the very constructive role played by the Oireachtas and, in particular, by a number of Deputies and Senators on this committee, in engaging with young people through the Comhairle na nÓg representative structures.
One of the national outcomes in Better Outcomes: Brighter Futures is the active and healthy physical and mental well-being of all children. One of the specific aims of realising this outcome is that all children will enjoy play, recreation, sport, arts culture and nature. In this context, national recreation week ran from Monday, 2 June to Sunday, 8 June. The focus for this year's events was on giving young people an opportunity to participate in recreation activities they have never before tried. My Department funded a number of events, which were supported by a network of local authority managers and staff responsible for the local delivery of play and recreation services in communities across the country.
National play day took place on Sunday, 6 July. The aim of national play day is to help increase public awareness of the importance of play in supporting children's physical and social development. The focus for national play day in 2014 was on going out to play and a variety of projects were funded that created opportunities for outdoor play at street, neighbourhood and community level. I want to commend local authority managers and staff for their participation in the various events and the encouragement they offer to children and their families to experience play in their own locality.
In May, the former Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, launched Erasmus+ 2014-2020, the EU's support programme for life-long learning, training and sport. My predecessor welcomed this extensive and valuable new Erasmus+ programme, 10% of which is ring-fenced for activity in the youth field. The youth programme will provide more than €16 million to Ireland over the next seven years and this year alone Ireland will benefit from €2.89 million. Its youth priorities include the promotion of young people's social inclusion and well-being, notably through projects tackling youth unemployment, and the promotion of healthy behaviours, in particular through outdoor activities and grassroots sport. The programme also aims to raise awareness about EU citizenship, rights, active participation of young people and to develop basic and transversal skills - for example, entrepreneurship, digital skills and multilingualism.

It is important that youth organisations nationwide bring forward proposals under the programme in order that as many young people as possible can avail of transnational exchanges and opportunities to enhance their skills, competencies and employability.

The most pressing issue that has arisen since the most recent quarterly meeting with the joint committee is that of mother and baby homes and related matters. This has developed into an issue of national concern and international interest. There is no denying that what we have learned about the deaths of particularly vulnerable young children in such institutions has been very distressing, in particular, the scale of the number of deaths of infants and young children over several decades in the past.

This issue relates to the responsibilities of a range of Departments. Work has been progressing, under the auspices of an interdepartmental group chaired by the Secretary General of my Department, to examine the full scope of the inquiry that will take place into such matters. It is our intention that the inquiry will be established under the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004 and will have all the necessary powers that it requires to ensure full co-operation and the submission of a comprehensive report to Government. The commission of investigation's formal establishment will require a resolution of both Houses. Calls have been made to have many elements considered by the commission and we must agree on appropriate and realistic terms of reference to bring the inquiry to as satisfactory a conclusion as possible.

The Cabinet was updated on Tuesday evening in regard to the work of the interdepartmental group. The Government agreed to the publication of the group's report, which was laid before the Oireachtas yesterday, and also agreed that Judge Yvonne Murphy will chair the commission of inquiry. I am grateful to Judge Murphy for accepting this challenging and important task. I expect it will be the autumn before the terms of reference for the inquiry are agreed and published. I am committed to continuing to engage with Opposition spokespersons in this work and grateful to spokespersons for taking time to discuss this matter with me in recent days. I will report to the Dáil this afternoon on these matters and look forward to statements from Deputies on the subject.

The Government is also committed to improving arrangements for adoption information and tracing. I intend to finalise legislative proposals and refer the general scheme and heads of the adoption (information and tracing) Bill to the committee as soon as possible.

I thank the Chairman for providing me with an opportunity to update the joint committee. A challenging few months lie ahead and I look forward to updating members again in the autumn. Members will appreciate that, as the new Minister, I have had a limited opportunity to read in depth into my brief, notwithstanding my interest in many aspects of the Department's responsibilities over the years. I will endeavour to address members' questions in full and, where an immediate response is not possible, to revert with responses as soon as possible.

9:45 am

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy James Reilly, to his first committee meeting in his current role. I mean no disrespect in expressing disappointment that a new Minister has been appointed to this portfolio only two short months after the appointment of the previous Minister. Given that this is the Minister's first meeting with the joint committee, I had expected him to outline his priorities for the Department for the remainder of the Government's term. I ask him to outline his priorities and brief members on rumours that responsibility for various public health issues will transfer from the Department of Health to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. If these rumours are true, will the Minister specify the issues for which responsibility will transfer to his Department?
Two weeks ago, a reputable newspaper reported that Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, will not be able to meet its budgetary target this year. What deficit did the agency carry over from the Health Service Executive? If it is unable to meet its budgetary target, what actions will the Minister take to ensure front-line services are not affected by the budget overrun?
I expected the Minister to provide an update on the eight-point plan for early years education. The former Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and current Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, initiated the eight-point plan in direct response to a "Prime Time" exposé on child care facilities entitled, "A Breach of Trust". It is disappointing that the Minister did not provide an update on this extremely important issue. What is the position regarding the new regulations? Despite the Oireachtas passing the relevant legislation before Christmas 2013, the regulations are still not in operation. Some areas do not have an inspector and the early years strategy has not been published. This is a fundamentally important document which will set out a road map for the progress of the child care sector in the years ahead. I ask the Minister to update the joint committee on these matters.
I welcome the announcement of funding for 163 not-for-profit services. I understand there are 4,300 child care services in operation. Will the Minister confirm that approximately 30% of these are in the not-for-profit sector?
I welcome the cross-party approach taken by the Minister's predecessor on the issue of mother and baby homes and yesterday's meeting between Opposition spokespersons and the Minister to discuss the issue. If the commission of inquiry is to be successful, it is imperative that it progresses in a non-partisan manner in consultation with the various advocacy groups. We will have an opportunity to discuss this issue further later today.
The Minister's statement did not refer to a number of reports that were published this week. The national review panel on children who died in State care published a series of reports this week. The reports draw the worrying conclusion that a number of problems from the past have not been addressed. I refer specifically to poor inter-agency co-operation, shortcomings in child and adolescent mental health after-care services and the insufficient number of social workers. Given the importance of the review panel's reports, I had expected the Minister to refer to them.
It was intended that the Children First Bill would implement measures to address poor inter-agency co-operation. This legislation was promised as a priority when the Government assumed office three years ago. While Second Stage has been completed, we continue to wait for the Committee Stage to commence. Will the Minister give a commitment to enact this Bill without delay in the new Dáil term? Legislation on after care, on which the joint committee will launch a report later today, is also important and must receive priority in the Department.
This week, details of an audit of the early childhood care and education, ECCE, scheme emerged as a result of a freedom of information request. The audit raises a number of areas of significant concern vis-à-visPobal's dual role as a mentor and guardian of the ECCE scheme. It refers to a conflict of interest and asks whether it was appropriate to have Pobal administer the scheme without placing the contract out to tender. It also raised the issue of value for money in the scheme. I ask the Minister to respond to some of the concerns raised in the audit.
When the House returns from the summer recess in September it will have been almost two years since citizens voted on the referendum on children's rights, which was supported by all political parties.

Due to a political judgment that was made, this result is now the subject of judicial proceedings. Can the Minister give the committee a timeframe for when the judicial proceedings will be concluded? Also, is the legislation to give effect to the referendum ready to be enacted, if and when the judicial proceedings are completed?

9:55 am

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I wish the new Minister for Children and Youth Affairs success with his new portfolio of responsibilities. I note that question No. 7 about the commission of investigation into mother and baby homes is grouped with a range of questions. The report was issued yesterday on the interdepartmental group's deliberations. It is fair to say that the conclusions are accurate with regard to the provision of background material to inform the separate task of finalising detailed terms of reference. On that basis, one can accept that it achieves some of that, but there is much that it does not address. My critical concern is that there might be a reliance on this cross-departmental report in the compilation of the terms of reference for the commission of investigation. If that were the case, much would be missed.
I am concerned about a number of areas, not least that Table 2 in the document refers to nine specific locations. I welcome the fact that the Bethany Home is included in that list of nine. However, I do not believe that the reference to the county homes and Magdalen laundries as part of a mapping exercise across a range of settings will be adequate by any stretch of the imagination. I believe that the county homes and the Magdalen laundries must be integral to the principal project of the new commission of investigation, that is, to address all of these sites, all mother and baby homes and similar institutions. I made this case ad nauseamto the former Minister and yesterday to the current Minister, Deputy Reilly, when we met for the first time since he took office.
There are a range of other things that have not been mentioned. The cross-border and international dimensions are very important and that is not reflected in an adequate way in the cross-departmental report. That is hugely important in terms of placements and adoptions on a cross-border basis and internationally and it is critical to the terms of reference that must ultimately be agreed.
With regard to the reference to a social history, much of this comes from the mapping exercise and the conclusions E and F. We must have more than a social history. It is absolutely vital that the opportunity is not lost to address properly all of the salient facts and expose them to full public scrutiny. A social history may indeed be welcome of itself, but that will not suffice in terms of the victims and survivors of said institutions. A light must be shone in all of these areas, such that nothing is left untold.
I wish to record some disappointment. In previous meetings with the former Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, I had requested a heads-up in respect of the appointment to the chair of the commission of investigation. It came up, but not the name, yesterday in our meeting. I would have liked to have had the opportunity to have privately indicated to the Minister my concerns about Judge Yvonne Murphy. That concern would be based not on other work she has done but particularly regarding the report on symphysiotomy. I have read that report at least a couple of times and remain deeply disappointed that it did not properly reflect point No. 2, methodologies that would allow for the achievement of truth and justice for all of the victims of that barbaric practice. That causes me concern regarding her appointment in this instance.
I had offered to give a view in previous meetings and I am disappointed that the opportunity was not provided. However, the announcement has been made and I must try to find some solace in the fact that the Minister has designated her as chair of a commission of investigation, rather than the sole member. I strongly commend to the Minister the appointment of a number of people to constitute the commission rather than a sole individual. It is very important. Again, I refer to the international dimension. There is a pool of very highly qualified and respected international judicial figures. I had instanced one of those in the submission I made to the Minister, both in writing and orally, and while I was not making an argument for that specific person, I was trying to indicate how important it was that the appointees would be of such stature that they would deservedly have the confidence of all who are looking forward to the unfolding work of the new commission.
As regards the conclusions of the cross-departmental team, I agree with the point made in 8.c. It says that legislative reform is likely to deliver a much more effective approach and should proceed as speedily as possible. This, of course, refers to the wider area regarding those who have been through these adoption experiences. It would not be too harsh to describe some of them as very questionable adoption practices, if not illegal for their time. The information and tracing Bill must be expedited. It is very important that this is done, and the Minister should respond accordingly.
Briefly, with regard to the two other matters I raised relating to the recommendations of the Ombudsman for Children's report on the services for children in care, question No. 8, when will the national plan for residential care be ready? When will the Children First Bill be enacted? Regarding the children's referendum, what is the Minister's understanding of the expected conclusion of the Supreme Court ruling on the challenge to the referendum and, consequently, when will its provisions come into effect? My final question relates to question No. 9.

In this instance, I note 4,500 reports have been published. What percentage of the total number of reports does this represent? Are there specific black spots in respect of unpublished reports? How many additional inspectors have been recruited and how many will be recruited to ensure adherence to the regulations to be published before the end of August? Finally, will the Secretary General of the Department provide this Deputy and members of the joint committee with the Labour Court ruling that is referred to repeatedly by Tusla as the reason it is not in a position to employ early childhood education, ECE, graduates as inspectors? I ask him to please furnish members with this information.

10:05 am

Photo of Jillian van TurnhoutJillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister and it is great to see him here. There is much talk during Cabinet reshuffles of promotions, demotions or whatever but this is a dream job. The Minister has an opportunity to take a strong step to make Ireland one of the best places in which to be a child, to grow up and to transition into adulthood. There is a saying that third time is a charm and as this is the third Minister for Children and Youth Affairs in the present Administration, the Minister hopefully is sure to succeed and that it really is a charm. There is a long list of issues in respect of children and young people and I stress the point to the Minister that very often, one forgets about young people in this portfolio. While there is a long list, today I will only concentrate on a few areas based on the questions I had submitted.
However, I certainly will be happy to engage with the Minister and his officials on how to ensure we are not simply firefighting. Obviously, we must ensure the well-being of those particularly vulnerable children who are in crisis but we must also ensure the foundation blocks are in place and that there is early intervention and prevention. In the context of early intervention and prevention, sometimes people immediately think of toddlers and babies but they must be considered at all stages in a child's life. Were one to read the national review panel reports published yesterday, this can be seen to be true. I refer in particular to the case of "Luke", for whom this can be seen so many times during his life. The report stated "the high threshold for tolerance by the HSE of information concerning child neglect for the first nine years of Luke's life" was unacceptable. Tragically, he died at the age of 19 and for me, this is an area about which we must be very concerned. The review panel reports have shown that quite a lot of agencies are involved and quite a considerable amount of resources are involved in a child's life on behalf of the State. The difficulty, again and again, is these resources are not connected. All too often, children are failed because by the time a social worker identifies that X resources are needed for a child and by the time the resource in question becomes available, that child's life has moved on and the resource no longer is the appropriate resource for the child and therefore, it fails again. Ultimately, however, it is the child who really is failed. I will echo my request regarding the issue of the national review panel reports. The former Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, had agreed to it and consequently, I am surprised that members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children did not get advance notice of the reports and did not receive them. Although I awoke yesterday to read about it in The Irish Times, I believe the Oireachtas has a role in examining and scrutinising these reports.
Part of my question No. 15 pertained to the Child and Family Agency and this hits at the issue of the provision of resources because during the passage of the Act, Members were told of the 4,000 staff the new agency would have. This is true as if one looks at a headcount, the agency has a staff of 3,942. In reality, however, when one considers the number of full-time equivalents, the number of staff is 3,483.76. This shows to me that at present, the agency does not have the resources to make it succeed. I also have had concerns about out-of-hours services, as well as the resources that are outside the agency but which are so critical to its success such as the child and adolescent mental health services. Moreover, if one studies the review panel reports published yesterday, public health nurses also play a vital role. Many, albeit not all, asked to be transferred over but yet were not. How can one be sure that such joined-up working is succeeding? I had difficulty in this regard even during the passage of the Act and while I acknowledge plans are being developed, I do not know how one will know the agency is succeeding. Is it by the number of children who die in care? Will it be like road accident statistics where the numbers rise and fall and where we will applaud ourselves when fewer children die in the care of the State in a particular year? Were that to be the case, it would be untenable. However, targets must be set and published. Although the head of the agency talks about accountability and transparency, yet I still have not had sight of clear targets that members of the joint committee can follow in order that they can know when they can appropriately applaud the agency and when they must state its performance is not good enough and more must happen. I believe there is an issue in respect of the provision of resources but often, that issue can mask problems about implementation and consequently, this is an issue that must be examined.
As for question No. 13 that I asked on direct provision, I welcome the response and acknowledge that the former Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, met the Seanad cross-party group headed by Senator Ó Clochartaigh and myself. However, one agreement we had with the Minister at that time but on which no action has been taken was for the Department to commission internally a report on the needs of children in direct provision. This would be in line with the proposal by the special rapporteur on child protection, Mr. Geoffrey Shannon, who suggested there should be a report to examine whether the system itself is detrimental to the welfare and development of children and, if appropriate, whether the adoption of an alternative form of support and accommodation would be more suitable for families and for children in particular. I ask the Minister to give consideration to drawing up that report. I believe that is the role for the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. Obviously, direct provision falls under the remit of the Minister for Justice and Equality but the children in direct provision cannot be ignored and I have concerns regarding welfare and protection that I have raised previously.
Finally, with regard to question No. 14, I welcome the Minister's openness about looking at the definitions of children at risk and vulnerable groups. We must ensure that we are inclusive and that as many children as possible are included. This brings me to agreeing wholeheartedly with Deputy Ó Caoláin on the mother and baby homes and similar institutions, both about the investigation itself and the need regarding the right to identity in respect of information and tracing for adoption. One regret I have on this issue is while there obviously is an historic dimension that must be addressed, a child being adopted even today in Ireland will not have a right to his or her identity. The importance of the right to identity is known and we know the past must be redressed. Surely, however, one should seek to make the system of adoption more open in order that children who are being adopted today will have this right. That would be one way to show we are learning about the past and are making remedy and redressing that. I reiterate I have a long list but these are the issues on which I wish to focus today.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator and will hand back over to the Minister.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank members. I will try to go through as many of the questions as possible myself and will refer to the Secretary General where necessary. Deputy Troy asked me the reason I would not include my priorities into my opening statement. First, I would like to give further consideration to the areas I would like to prioritise. Second, the priorities that spring to mind immediately obviously are to continue to implement the programme for Government commitments, which I will do, as well as to focus on the Brighter Future Better Outcomes framework. Members have mentioned outcomes and as they are aware from my previous role, I am a great believer in measuring outcomes and developing measurement thereof, rather than simply looking at output. In many parts of the public service, we have run into trouble because of outputs and of ticking boxes, rather than looking at what actually was being achieved from the perspective of the client. This could not be more important anywhere than in the care of children.

Deputy Troy mentioned rumours of public health elements coming into this brief and I am aware there have been some reports that this would be perceived as a dilution or a downgrading. On the contrary, I would perceive such a move as strengthening the children portfolio. The Department has established itself and, as Senator van Turnhout has pointed out, it has a phenomenal job to do. It reaches into every other Department and many elements of public health specifically affect children. It is known that every euro one spends on children is where one will get the best return, whether it be in health or other aspects of their care such as education, etc.

This is where one will get the best return, be it in health or other aspects of their care such as education. The two Secretaries General will meet and discuss what the most appropriate parts to bring to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs are because whatever happens, it has to be done with one key objective in mind, which is achieving better outcomes for children.

Deputy Troy expressed concern that Tusla will not meet its budget this year. Tusla has a budget of €602 million, which includes €6.7 million in additional funding - €12 million in a full year - to assist in the reform of child protection services. Unlike many other public bodies, Tusla was not subject to an expenditure reduction requirement other than in respect of the public pay savings under the Haddington Road agreement. There were areas of expenditure which transferred to Tusla which are subject to financial pressure. For example, there is spending of about €34 million on legal costs, which is a huge amount of money. I reiterate the point I made yesterday and many times previously that we must ensure the moneys we have to go the people we are trying to serve - in this case, children - and not on legal fees. This sum is far too high and is acknowledged by Gordon Jeyes as being so. It is implementing a range of reforms to get value in this area. The agency's cash drawdown from my Department is currently well within the agreed levels but it is projecting an expenditure level that is about €23 million ahead of allocation, or just under 4%. The Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform are working very closely with the chief executive and head of finance in the agency on its financial outturn in its first year of operation. As I say, a huge part of that is made up of legal fees.

10:15 am

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Was any deficit carried over?

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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That covers the early years programme and the eight-point plan. I think there is a reasonably comprehensive answer to the Deputy's question at question No. 29. He spoke about the 4,200 different organisations, 30% of which are not for profit. I will let the Secretary General answer that question. In respect of the National Review Panel for Serious Incidents and Child Deaths, these are obviously of huge concern. As the Deputy is aware, the national review panel is independent. Its purpose is to bring transparency in order that we can learn from these tragedies and not continue to repeat the same mistakes. Reading the report, it is obvious there was a raft of things that seemed to be looked at in isolation rather than in a joined-up fashion, that there were delays in reports and information changing hands and that, as often happened in the past, issues were looked at in isolation rather than looking at the person and how all these things affected that individual. There needs to be more cohesion, and action has certainly been taken in the Department to correct many of the things highlighted in the report. That is not to say there is not room for further improvement because there certainly is room for improvement and a need for more work in this area.

The Deputy spoke about the number of social workers. Recruitment has taken place and a number have been recruited since the beginning of the year. Others must still be recruited and the Deputy mentioned the figures. This is an ongoing process. We are still awaiting the Children First legislation but that is to come in the autumn. The aftercare report and legislation will launched this afternoon. The audit of the ECCE scheme and Pobal was a proactive measure carried out by the Department to ensure we are getting value for money. It has shown up areas where further improvement can take place. The more transparency we have when we look at everything in public life, the more accountability and the better the outcome we get for the taxpayer and the people who use our services.

The referendum on judicial proceedings is a matter in the courts. The hearing is in December. I agree 100% with Deputy Ó Caoláin regarding the commission of investigation into the mother and baby homes. It is our intention that far more than social history will be done here. We will look into all these issues. We must have a thorough understanding of what happened and must be able to put it into the social context of the times. As I said yesterday, we want to be sufficiently inclusive to ensure we get a thorough understanding of the issues but not so expansive as to result in us not having a timely and cost-effective commission. What people want is to get knowledge as quickly as possible in a comprehensive fashion, and that is the aim of this commission.

The Deputy mentioned his concerns around Judge Murphy. I do not think there is anyone better placed than Judge Murphy given her record with regard to Cloyne, Dublin and symphysiotomy. She knows how to run a commission. We purposely appointed her as a chair and not as a sole person in order that she could avail of the opportunity to bring other people on to the commission. I will not prejudge her decision or that of the Government in that regard but, clearly, one can see the way we are leaning.

Adoption practices are best addressed through separate legislation in order that it can be done expeditiously. Otherwise, it will get caught up in the commission and delay the legislation and the commission. I think we would all agree that it is very important that people are able to trace their identity and know who they are genetically. Senator van Turnhout spoke about this and putting in place a legal right for people to know. We could certainly do that from this point on in the legislation. We propose to debate and do that. It is a bit like the law in many other areas. If a person entered into an agreement under certain terms and conditions, one cannot take their right to privacy away if they gave their child up on the basis that they had the right to reserve whereas from a point in the future, it would be clear in law that they would give up that right if they gave their child up for adoption.

Photo of Jillian van TurnhoutJillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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I contest whether they entered into that right of privacy.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Fair enough, but it is a legal consideration that we cannot just dismiss. I will leave the questions about how many inspectors will be recruited and whether the Secretary General will provide a Labour Court ruling on the ECCE.

Senator van Turnhout referred to the case of "Luke", which I have covered. We cannot but learn from this case. We have to learn from it and ensure we can look back and say we have addressed the issue at each point where there was a failure to do so to ensure it does not happen again. I can discuss with the Secretary General the matter of the committee not getting the report and see where that takes us. I will ask the Secretary General to address the point about public health nurses not transferring.

How do we know we are succeeding? We need to have measurable outcomes such as knowledge about whether they are attending school as they should and whether they have all completed their leaving certificate. They are only a few things. There are many other parameters at which we should look. With regard to the report on children in direct provision, I do not have a firm view on that as I am not long enough in the post but I will come back to the committee on that. We discussed the right to identity.

Mr. Jim Breslin:

In respect of early years, a question was asked about the percentage that are community facilities. About 900 out of about 4,500 are community facilities so it is closer to 20% than 30%, to which the Deputy referred. I will provide Deputy Ó Caoláin with the Labour Court ruling. In respect of blackspots and recruitment, significant recruitment is under way within the agency in respect of the filling of vacancies and the additional posts that have been approved under this year's business plan.

We know the recruitment campaign saw additional inspectors appointed during May. There is a lag in the number of inspections, however, as the inspectors do an induction process when they are appointed. We expect to see that rectified in due course. Further recruitment is under way and more inspectors will take up position in September. The agency has identified the main blackspots in parts of Dublin as a priority and will be undertaking a further recruitment campaign to address staffing issues there.

When the Department was established, it inherited a range of programmes which it is reviewing. We have an internal audit function with an independent audit committee. We take each of the programmes we are operating very seriously to see if there is greater scope for greater value for money and areas where greater controls could be implemented. There was a detailed audit of the free preschool year. Pobal plays an important role in providing this service. A Department of our size could not administer the range of schemes for which it has responsibility. Up to 4,500 providers participate in that particular scheme while the Department has a staff of 130 to cover its full range of responsibilities. We could devote a large cohort of our staff to that scheme alone and not have time to do our other work as a result.

We have an arrangement with Pobal which is absolutely legally compliant. We, along with other Departments which have a similar relationship with Pobal, have obtained legal advice on this. Pobal was established by the Government and is in its control. It appoints the board of directors while the Comptroller and Auditor General audits its accounts. It is more an agency relationship than a commercial relationship with the Department. We work with Pobal to improve how the free preschool year is operated. A major information technology project is being delivered and we will see substantial productivity improvement, building on work that has been achieved by Pobal in this area.

The question of value for money relates to the €2.5 million fee given to Pobal for operating the scheme with the total cost being €175 million. Looking at the €2.5 million on its own, as the internal audit did, it raises questions as to how it is determined. Prior to the audit, the Department and Pobal had agreed to move away from providing a fee to Pobal which did not have a proper costed activity base. Pobal did work for us which we did not pay it and then in other areas, such as the €2.5 million, it did work for us for which we did pay it. It is important all it does is properly costed with some external objective benchmarks and we can show value for money on that. That is the basis of the internal audit recommendation. Those recommendations form part of an action plan which is being implemented and overseen by the Department’s independent audit committee. The issues identified by the Department in the internal audit process will be advanced. We have the fullest co-operation from Pobal in that respect.

On the question of a conflict in interest, the current arrangement is that the compliance function is a dedicated and separate function to other roles performed by Pobal. It reports to a management unit that has other responsibilities. We have agreed with Pobal that it would be better that it would report to a specific compliance function that it would have in place for all of its programmes. Pobal will be re-organising how it does its compliance function to ensure there can be no perception of a conflict of interest. There has been a positive set of responses to the internal audit findings. I am satisfied we will have the oversight in place and that in implementing that action plan we will address all the issues outlined in the internal audit report.

The Supreme Court will hear two appeals against the High Court ruling on the children’s referendum which was in favour of the Government in early December. I am not certain how quickly we will get a ruling but the full consideration of both appeals will take place at the same time. Once the ruling is made, and on the basis that the referendum is validated, we have legislation ready to introduce to the House to give effect to the referendum result.

We have covered some of the ground about public health nurses in recognising that the task force on the establishment of the Child and Family Agency made a range of recommendations, some of which were easier to implement immediately. Through the legislation we have put a range of functions in place for the agency. There are other recommendations which will require fuller and deeper consideration. They would also have been too much to advance in the agency’s first year of operations.

In respect of relevant child and youth services which have stayed in the Health Service Executive, HSE, there is a joint protocol in place with Tusla to ensure close co-operation between the various services. We will examine that level of integration to see what the best arrangements are for the future. That will have to be considered in conjunction with other Departments too. We do not have a position on it at this stage.

10:25 am

Photo of Imelda HenryImelda Henry (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and wish him well in his new portfolio, one of the most important in the Cabinet. A lot of work has been done to date in the Department but there is a lot more to do. The Department’s job is to protect the children of this State. Bearing in mind what happened in the past, we must ensure all these issues are dealt with and do not recur. The Minister’s priority is to protect children in care, an area in which there are still issues. I hope the Children First Bill, scheduled for the autumn, will be delivered on then.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Minister on his new appointment. I hope the approach he will take will have the same energy and wisdom which he brought to his last portfolio. As a doctor and a father, he knows too well the difficulties children face and the urgent need to address these.

I welcome the establishment of the commission of investigation into mother and baby homes, as well as the appointment of its chair. An awful evil was inflicted on many young mothers and children in the past. Yesterday, across the water, we were brought into a different realm with reports of widespread child abuse inflicted by family members, service providers, doctors, teachers and others close to children. Sometimes the voice of abused children is not heard. The Minister must work on behalf of all children.

I welcome that the breakdown of funding for individual family resource centres will be forwarded to me.

I ask that it include the number of staff involved and the cost. What training is offered to the clients who use the family resource centre and how many participate in training programmes? It may not be possible to provide an answer for that question today.

In regard to question No. 21 and the second preschool year, as the report states clearly, the current preschool programme is a huge success. Unfortunately, however, it is a question of money. When we had money, we should have done much more to facilitate young parents who have huge mortgages with a second preschool year. I urge the Minister to pursue budget provision for a second free preschool year, perhaps on a phased basis. Every parent to whom I speak attests to the success of the programme and reports indicate that children's education and development are significantly enhanced by it.

10:35 am

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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I congratulate the Minister and wish him well in his brief. His is an evolving Department which is doing pioneering work in some areas. In that sense, it is a good challenge and I sincerely wish him the best.

I briefly wish to raise some issues about the questions I tabled on mother and baby homes and adoptions. In regard to children in care and the appalling treatment some have experienced, resulting in death in some instances, it is difficult to trump the horror associated with it. A new body has been established to register health and social workers. As of this year just under 3,700 social workers have applied to register with this body. However, the board has acknowledged that some of these individuals do not have particularly extensive experience and as of one or two weeks ago the number of registrations was lower than 3,700 applications. Approximately 400 people have applied but not been registered. The very fact that they have applied for registration is sufficient to allow them to operate as social workers, even though they are, in effect, unregistered social workers in the employ of the HSE. In the context of the serious care issues that arise, I am concerned about the fact that the figures do not add up.

Complaints about serious incidents of child safety breaches and abuse have been made against staff in certain care institutions. What steps would the Minister recommend complainants take in such cases?

The issue of adoption is linked with mother and baby homes, but it is also separate. There is an urgent need to address the issue of adoption through information and tracing legislation, but the problem with the response I have received to my question is that we have been raising this issue for the past three years and the answer has always been the same. That is not the Minister's fault, but three years have passed and the legislation has not yet been delivered as promised. What assurances can we be given that it will be tabled in the autumn? The over-complication and lack of recognition of the Department's legal interpretation have been disputed by others who argue that the right to privacy is not enshrined as the Minister indicated, particularly in the context of adoption. This issue is urgent. The Chinese walls erected in the context of mother and baby homes have set off alarm bells among the groups involved because illegal practices of adoption and coercion need to be addressed. It is not adequate to say these issues will be covered by the new legislation because it will only deal with the provision of information and tracing in the future. It will not take account of what happened to people in the past and the need for an investigation.

I concur with Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin's comments on the commission and have similar concerns, although they are not in any way derogatory of Judge Murphy. It is not sufficient that she be given the option to bring in others. It is an absolute necessity that she bring in others. One of the reasons for Ireland's hammering at the United Nations hearings in Geneva was the approach taken to symphysiotomy did not lend itself to accountability. Nobody was held to account for what happened and that responsibility was written out of the story. Unfortunately, that was the approach taken to Judge Murphy's role. We need to include a truth finding aspect, but the Minister's reference to a timely and cost effective process rings alarm bells for people. Does it mean "limiting"? We need to build consultation and involvement with survivor groups into the process.

Photo of Sandra McLellanSandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister and wish him well in his new role.

In regard to question No. 4 on mother and baby homes, I am disappointed that we do not have terms of reference. I note the appointment of a chairperson. It is important that an international dimension be included in the commission. I ask the Minister to give a firm commitment that the terms of reference will be in place at the start of the next Dáil term and that they will be inclusive and fit for purpose.

With regard to question No. 5 on free preschool places for children with learning difficulties, it is virtually impossible for children with additional needs to receive support in ECCE services. It is commonplace that assessments are made later in the preschool year and they do not determine the supports children require. It is an appalling example of two Departments ignoring their policy responsibilities. The preschool ratio is one carer to 11 children, but the ratio for children with special needs to be much lower. I ask the Minister to investigate how this can be rectified in order that assessments will be made at the beginning of the preschool year.

Photo of Billy TimminsBilly Timmins (Wicklow, Independent)
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I congratulate the Minister and wish him well in his new appointment.

On the issue of adoption, it can be difficult to deal with competing rights, but the right of the adopted child to know his or her parents should supersede the right to privacy. While it is a difficult legal issue, I urge the Minister to make progress on it. If it means getting agreement on waiving previous legal commitments, that should be done. It is important to take a proactive approach.

With regard to the detention centre for young offenders, I listened to Mr. John Lonergan during the years and we can all identify the child or young person in our constituencies who will end up in prison. It comes down to early access to education. When former Deputy John O'Donoghue was Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, his Department carried out research in conjunction with the USA on the correlation between young offenders in detention centres and dyslexia and learning difficulties. A considerable amount of money was spent on an education centre in Mountjoy Prison which for industrial relations reasons was not used for several years.

I do not know whether it is used now. I urge the Minister to study the best practice in other jurisdictions, particularly in England. There is a detention centre for young offenders in Warrington where the programme is based on building up self esteem, giving young offenders a role in life and putting resources into education. I am familiar with young offenders in my constituency. They spend their time bored, lying on their beds, with nothing to do. In England I met young offenders whose colleagues in other centres were writing to the governor of the Warrington centre asking to be admitted to it. It is worth paying a visit to it. I hope the new centre will get off on the correct footing and that the staff are educated in how to deal with the needs of young people.

I see no mention of the children's hospital, which is a very important issue. I have concerns about it and have tabled a number of questions to the Minister for Health during recent months but have received evasive answers. I understood the cost was estimated at €650 million-----

10:45 am

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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That is a matter for the Department of Health, not the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.

Photo of Billy TimminsBilly Timmins (Wicklow, Independent)
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While the detention centre could be a matter for the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Chairman allowed it. One of the difficulties with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is that he over-----

Photo of Jillian van TurnhoutJillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Youth justice is a matter for the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.

Photo of Billy TimminsBilly Timmins (Wicklow, Independent)
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I am deeply concerned that the Department of Health may not be upfront about the cost and timing of the children's hospital and it is important that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs take it up with the Minister for Health because it is one of the most important facilities that will be created and developed in this country for children and it is important to get the information out that it may cost a couple of hundred million euro more and take a few years longer than projected.

Photo of Jillian van TurnhoutJillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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Would the Minister consider having representatives of the Child and Family Agency attend when he gives the briefing? At our last quarterly hearing, I asked the former Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, to consider it. How does the committee interact with the Child and Family Agency? It is unacceptable that six months after its establishment we have had no interaction with it. At yesterday's press briefing, Mr. Paul Harrison of the Child and Family Agency said 9,000 children who have been referred to the Child and Family Agency await the allocation of a social worker. What is more staggering is that 3,000 of them are considered high priority. I am extremely concerned about the figure, which I questioned yesterday on the radio. I am alarmed that it is so high. With so many high priority children not being considered by the agency, we should be ringing alarm bells and there should be a sense of urgency.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Henry and Deputy Catherine Byrne for their comments and I agree with them. While we must focus on children in care, my Department is to protect all children in the State and ensure they all get the best care during their childhoods and the best outcomes we can create. Many of these matters cut across public health issues, for example we do not want children smoking or drinking alcohol, we want them to be conscious of the value of being physically active and aware of their weight, without being consumed by it. We know there are issues on both end of the spectrum for which we need to watch out.

Deputy Catherine Byrne asked about question No. 20 and the number of staff who participate in training, and I will let the Secretary General answer. I am a great supporter of a second pre-school year, as is the Tánaiste. However, we must check the quality of what we deliver now before we extend it. This is not a way of delaying it; we just need to assure ourselves we are spending the money in the right way and getting the outcomes we need.

Deputy Daly mentioned the challenge, with which I concur completely, and the appalling treatment some children have had in care in the past and that we must learn from it and ensure we do not repeat the mistakes, which has been a recurring theme in many parts of our public services. I understand the Deputy's point about the 400 social workers who applied for registration, have not been registered but are still working in their roles. I will get a report on it because it is critically important. The Deputy's other point is equally important, regarding how we process complaints and how people get satisfaction. In my previous Department, we discussed a patient safety agency, which is being established on an administrative basis. We will need some mechanism that will give people the comfort that they can make a complaint and get a resolution quickly, and that if they are not happy with the resolution being presented by the local agency, there is a national, more independent mechanism for addressing the situation.

I want to reassure the Deputy that we consider the issue of identity and tracing to be urgent. This is not a ploy to delay it but a mechanism to accelerate the legislation. The Department has done much work already on it and the Deputy will be able to take me to task if it does not come through, because it is a priority, as do others in government. While it is for the Government to make the final decision on the commission issue, and I do not want to pre-empt it, it would be beneficial to have an international presence on it. To do it, I would want to talk to Judge Murphy and get a Government decision.

While I understand Deputy McLellan's disappointment about the terms of reference, it is better done right than rushed. The last thing we need is a ten-year tribunal to the frustration of many of the people involved and enormous cost to the taxpayer. This is not an excuse for trying to close down the areas that must be investigated. There is no point in having the commission if we leave whole rafts of people no wiser than when we started and feeling excluded. It will not work. Mechanisms will have to be found to make it as inclusive as possible and fit for purpose. The Deputy also mentioned the ratios around 1:11 for children and the same applied to those with disabilities and special needs. A working group from my Department and the Departments of Health and Education and Skills is examining it. Wearing a previous hat, we were the first to put a civil servant at principal officer level across the three Departments to examine such issues.

I hear what Deputy Timmins said about the right of a child to know versus the right of privacy, which Deputy Daly also raised. While I do not consider myself in any position to make judgments on it, I know the issues and we will do our best. If we can come to another solution for those who are in the situation it will be all to the benefit. We will examine it and will get the best legal advice we can with a view to being proactive and trying to resolve the issue, not as an excuse for doing nothing and leaving matters as they are.

I could not agree more with the Deputy on Oberstown and early intervention for learning difficulties. There is a serious issue regarding children with dyslexia and other learning issues such as attention deficit disorder with hyperactivity, ADDH. They end up in trouble and are sent down the wrong road instead of receiving the support and help they need. I will examine other centres, which the Department has already done. I worked in Oberstown as a visiting doctor for several years, and things have moved on there in terms of the care they give and the normalisation of life they try to bring for children, educating them and keeping them in school. There is another initiative in the Department around community programmes, which are aimed at supporting children to get on in their own schools and communities and preventing them ending up in institutions of care such as Oberstown.

We would all like the national children's hospital built as expeditiously as possible. I was talking to the Minister for Health about it last night. We will continue to raise concerns and there will be ongoing input and support from my Department to the Minister for Health.

It is the remit of the Minister for Health and it is his project to deliver.

10:55 am

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister, Mr. Breslin, Ms Hogan and Mr. Savage for attending. We wish the Minister well in his tenure. We hope he has a very successful time in the Department. We might discuss Senator van Turnhout's comment again in terms of how we can have engagement with the Child and Family Agency.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I apologise. I meant to address the issue. I agree that the Child and Family Agency should come before the committee to discuss the reports. I would like some time to speak to the former Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, as I have only just got my knees under the desk. I wish to get some advice in that regard.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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It would be our intention that the committee would be able to interact. It is perfectly legitimate that the committee should do so.

Photo of Jillian van TurnhoutJillian van Turnhout (Independent)
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We must find a way to do so.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.15 a.m. until noon on Tuesday, 22 July 2014.