Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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The delegation from the north west is most welcome and we look forward to discussing the work it is involved in on a cross-Border and pan-European basis with regard to advanced communications technology. I welcome the representatives from the European Regions Network for the Application of Communications Technology, ERNACT, Mr. Colm McColgan, general manager, Councillor Gerard Diver, chairperson of Derry City Council, board member Councillor Rena Donaghey, Donegal County Council, board member and newly elected councillor of Donegal County Council, Niamh Kennedy, and board member Mr. Brian Boyle, Donegal County Council. I have a good deal of knowledge about the group, having been a former chairperson, and I am familiar with its work. This is a good opportunity to put the good work it has been involved in on the public record. From the point of view of the committee, there might be opportunities to explore, in terms of assistance to different parts of the country, both north and south. The organisation works to develop a number of digital projects and to secure EU funding. We look forward to exploring with the delegation the importance of technology in driving economic development and supporting business and to discussing how the experience of other regions can be applied in the north west.

Before I call on the witnesses to make their introductory comments and presentation, I must warn them about privilege. I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their utterances at this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments and evidence related to the subject matter of this meeting are to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Diver to begin.

Mr. Gerard Diver:

I am delighted to be here today as chairperson of the ERNACT network. We appreciate the opportunity to address the committee. The work the committee is doing is very important and it has obviously cast the net wide in terms of the matters on which it wishes to be briefed.

I have been on the ERNACT network for only a couple of years but the network has been in existence for over 20 years. It was initiated by the two neighbouring councils on the north west of the island, Derry City Council and Donegal County Council. They were quite prescient 21 years ago. The network was founded to look at communications, particularly through information communications technology, ICT, and the application of ICT. We all know what has happened over the last 20 years. I do not think the Internet existed 21 years ago, so it was far-seeing to create the network.

It was obviously prompted in part by our physical location. The local authorities are based on the north west of the island, which is on the north west of Europe, so that is a big challenge in terms of our peripherality and the links and relationships we have with places outside our region. The network has worked very successfully over those 20 years and has received a great deal of co-operation from other regions and municipalities across the European Union. You will be aware of that, Chairman, as you were directly involved in the network. It has successfully accessed funding for ICT projects, to develop models of good practice and for different projects that are able to help member states of the EU work together collaboratively on a better footing on the ICT agenda. We recently returned from a trip to Atlantic Canada, so ERNACT is now looking outside the European Union in terms of its remit through our relationship with our friends across the Atlantic. That is a very exciting development for the work we will be doing. As somebody who is a fairly recent addition to the network, it appears to me that part of the difficulty we have had is that we have hidden our light under a bushel with regard to the achievements and the work done over the past 20 years.

At this stage I will hand over to Colm McColgan to make the presentation and give an insight into the work that ERNACT has done and plans to do in the future. I thank the committee for listening to us today.

Mr. Colm McColgan:

Thank you, Chairman, for inviting us to the meeting. I echo what our chairperson has said.

I will focus on high speed broadband and the challenges it presents for rural areas, particularly for rural areas in border regions which tend to be far away from their respective capitals.

My first slide shows figures that highlight the importance of information technology. We have a lot of SMEs that use information technology and there is evidence to show they grow twice as fast as ones that do not.

Another aspect is the fear that information technology destroys jobs. It does but there is evidence that for every job it destroys two and a half new jobs are created. Therefore, information technology cannot be ignored and we must get on board with it.

We are delighted that the joint committee specifically mentions communications infrastructure as part of its remit on its website. We feel that the sector is one of the most important assets for an area. One of the main things we want to do today is show the committee what we have learned is happening outside of Ireland, outside the United Kingdom and in other parts of Europe, particularly in the Nordic countries which are very far thinking in their approach to this challenge.

As Mr. Diver has said, ERNACT has been around for 20 years. In that period we have engaged with about 130 regions. Today we engage with about 50 regions on a whole range of digital development issues. Of course that work embraces infrastructure but it also deals with services and how they can be used for the good of society, business and education.

The next slide gives a flavour of the type of projects we are working on. The top project relates to broadband and refers to ten regions in Europe that have substantial rural areas. They are very concerned that the business case for the private sector does not stack up and, therefore, one must put in public money if one wants to install very good broadband in rural areas. Of course this is a time when national governments are strapped for cash which is the worst situation one can meet. Other projects deal with things like using the Internet to deliver public services and the way different regions can use it, for example, to promote tourism by developing apps. Those are some of the projects that ERNACT is currently involved with and the slides give a flavour of the type of work that we do.

A lot of public authorities around Europe are very interested in the concept of open data and how one can better use social media and social media channels to deliver public services. We are working on such a project.

Mr. Diver has mentioned that we have started to look to the other side of the Atlantic. That move was prompted by the fact that the European Union has, for the first time, compiled a strategy for its side of the Atlantic. The European Union specifically referenced the Canadian and American side of things so we travelled there to see if there was a basis for co-operation. We were delighted to learn that they were very open to collaboration and that we have a lot of things, including challenges, in common.

I have given an introduction to ERNACT and shall now talk about broadband in the Border area. Up until 2007-2008, which was the end of the last INTERREG programme, there was a big emphasis on telecoms. During the period between 2000 and 2007 a lot of good work was done on the north-west corridor, particularly between Derry and Letterkenny. In 2010 there were no cross-Border fibre links in the area but that has changed through a combination of good support from two councils - Derry City Council and Donegal County Council - and the fact that there was, at the time, more funding from national governments, with good support being provided by Dublin and Belfast. At the end of that period there were four cross-Border fibre links and Project Kelvin is one that all the committee Members probably know about. It was well supported by both Governments and other links exist as well. If support had not been provided through cross-Border programmes there would be no links in the region.

The programmes run in five to seven-year cycles. Another project has just finished but it had very little provision for broadband. A new programme is being discussed and is under public consultation but it contains no broadband provision.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Is that the INTERREG programme?

Mr. Colm McColgan:

Yes. That is not saying that some broadband things may not be done but it is not mentioned or given the same priority. We did so well out of the INTERREG programme in terms of improving infrastructure that it might present some kind of a problem for us.

In the past the challenge was to get big fibre linked broadband into an area but now the challenge is to bring high speed broadband to houses, farms and small businesses located in rural areas. The matter is being looked at very seriously in Finland and Sweden and I have an example from the latter. We know that the market will look after larger towns and cities and the same applies to the Border region. A lot of people in Donegal and the Derry City Council rural area live in the country where introducing broadband is quite expensive. There is a view that high speed wireless will be a solution for rural areas. Yesterday it was announced in the newspapers that parts of Dublin will get 1,000 Mbps. We think that a problem will be created if one region gets 1,000 Mbps while another gets between 40 or 50 Mbps. In Sweden researchers have analysed such a challenge because fibre cables are being put into farms and houses. The Swedish model is quite different from the Irish model. In Sweden most of the fibre networks are owned by the public sector which leases them back to private telecom operators in order for them to deliver services. That is quite different from the way the telecom system has evolved here in Ireland.

The next slide shows a county located in the north of Sweden which is remote and very sparsely populated when compared with anywhere here in Ireland. The next slide is a more detailed map and the green spots represent small communities that have built their own fibre network. Between 80% and 90% of the cost of deploying fibre networks relates to digging and not the fancy technologies or fibre cables. Typically, in Sweden, a local authority or co-op would take ownership of the project. Therefore, it would help to plan the route in consultation with local communities, it would ensure there was sufficient backhaul and it would train local people with JCBs and tractors how to dig appropriate sized trenches, how to fit special equipment on the back of their machines and how to do the work.

In these times when we are strapped for cash at national level, both in the North and in the South, we think this is a model worth trying here. We have engaged and are talking to the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, DARD, in Northern Ireland and it is taking a good hard look at it. We had the idea of piloting a trial in quite a rural area straddling the Border. We could use the pilot to figure out whether what the Swedes have done would work in Ireland. It does pay for itself over a longer time period than the private sector would demand.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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That is helpful. This is tangible and we will put it on the desks of people who need to look at this idea as a possibility. We appreciate Mr. McColgan's presentation. With the agreement of members, we will open up the discussion to allow them to make observations and ask questions. We will have an interactive exchange.

Mr. Conor Murphy:

I thank Mr. McColgan for this very interesting presentation. I am very familiar with the issues raised in the area I live in and represent in South Armagh. We have problems with connections for farms in particular because much of the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development form filling exercises are now done online and many farmers have difficulty accessing proper broadband. I was dealing with a case last week on the old Belfast to Dublin road, and one would think there would be strong connections on the main route in the island but there are difficulties for small businesses that need high speed connection. In the North, both the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, DETI and the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, DARD, have given money to try to give these companies the finance to provide broadband and hit the spots where there is poor connectivity. This has been going on for a number of years but in my experience it has had a limited impact. Is Mr. McColgan sensing a different approach when he has conversations with DARD and DETI or is it more of the same? Essentially, organisations such as BT have been given assistance to try to provide a service. Some people have got it but it is a slow and patchy process. We still find there are large parts - I presume if it is happening on my patch of the Border area that it is happening right round the Border area - which have not been hit at all. The more rural and the more isolated the area, the less likely people are to get a service because it is not economically viable for them to try to make an attempt to connect the person, even though they are getting public funding for that express purpose. It seems that a pilot scheme that takes a different perspective would offer a solution because what has been tried in the past number of years does not seem to have had the impact that people expected. In the process of discussions with the Departments in Northern Ireland, whatever about in the South, does Mr. McColgan have a sense that they are taking a different approach?

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I will take a number of participants before I call on Mr. McColgan to respond.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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I thank ERNACT for its presentation. One slide shows a 75% of value added by the Internet to the traditional sectors. Has ERNACT done any research work in the north-west gateway in terms of the potential for SMEs to grow job creation and so on from that? The Western Development Commission had a very interesting report a few years ago in which it estimated that there could be 18,000 to 20,000 jobs created in the north-west region by assisting SMEs in the traditional creative industries to access Internet and broaden their Internet presence. It is interesting to see that the value added is in the traditional sectors which is where the potential for job creation in the north west would be. Has Mr. McColgan done any research on SMEs in Donegal and Derry?

On the ESB Airtricity announcement yesterday, Letterkenny is one of the towns that will be targeted as part of that initiative. What are the linkages for people into Project Kelvin and are there cross linkages between all the different providers in the north west? Are there problems with that and what is evolving?

The project in Sweden which was highlighted in the presentation is very interesting. Some 80% of fibre networks are owned by the public sector, which as Mr. McColgan pointed out is the exact opposite of what we have here. Obviously, the market has failed in terms of delivering broadband to communities across the country. We need to reshape public policy in terms of the roll-out of broadband and see it as a public infrastructure that is vitally important for the public good. Has Mr. McColgan any details on costs? How much would it cost to roll-out a project like the Swedish project?

Finally, in relation to the pilot project, while I think it has some merit, what we should be doing and focusing on is the ESB wrapping fibre and bringing it on a broad scale to every house in the country, which has now been enabled. The outworking of the ESB-Vodafone partnership is part of that. We should be focusing on ramping it up and speeding it up and ensuring that it is developed and rolled out across the country. By 2018 broadband will have been delivered to these 50 towns, which means by the time one gets down to rural Donegal one is looking at 2030 to 2035. A parallel focus for organisations such as ERNACT is to lobby for the policy change and the policy commitment that would be required to ensure that happens on a broad national scale. Perhaps it could even look at the North. Does the ESB own the network in the North and is it something that could be rolled out on an all island basis, which would have more significant and quicker impacts as well?

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Pringle. That is helpful in light of yesterday's announcement by the ESB and the connection with ESB International in the North. It is something we can explore.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I join my colleagues in welcoming the delegation from ERNACT. I thank them for taking the time to make this presentation. I thank the Chairman, Deputy McHugh, for hosting the delegates. The role of ERNACT is spelled out in its title, which is the application of technology in the regions. Will Mr. McColgan comment on his role, and his engagement with the delivery of as opposed to the application of infrastructure?

In regard to the €25 million investment in the north-west gateway, will he outline the focus of that investment? What is the remit of ERNACT and what geographic areas is it covering? Various programmes have been announced, be it Government investment or otherwise, so could Mr. McColgan outline how this will impact on the ground in places like Donegal? What does this mean, what is happening and what is likely to happen in the next couple of years? We have the rural broadband scheme, which has delivered by and large low grade wireless broadband to areas, which can be patchy but is certainly a development on what was there. That is a long way from achieving real connectivity for rural areas. In theory, broadband breaks down barriers and breaks down geography and makes it possible to host business or any type of activity in the most remote areas and offers great scope for remote and rural areas in terms of engaging with the wider world and developing economically on a more level playing field. The reality, however, has been that the advent of broadband has served to cut off rural areas even more so than before because without that broadband infrastructure it highlights the remoteness and disadvantages because the area does not have the broadband to be able to communicate with that infrastructure.

Something that should give us the opportunity to become mainstream is actually making us more remote. I agree with what has been said about the way we have to go.

The witnesses have said that digging accounts for between 80% and 90% of the cost of laying down broadband infrastructure. I ask them to comment on the suggestion that we have the capacity to put fibre on the telephone and ESB poles that go into every house in the country. Yesterday's announcement, which was privately driven, by and large, is further evidence that the infrastructure is there. I understand that Letterkenny is the only town in County Donegal to be included in these new plans. What are the possibilities in this regard? Has there been much engagement between ERNACT and the State? Can the witnesses comment on their awareness of the potential of the discussions that are taking place in this respect? It strikes me that the only real way to do this - it is certainly the most straightforward way - is to put the fibre on a pole, alongside the ESB and telephone lines, so that it can be connected into every house. That is the only way we can make sure this happens. That would be the lowest-cost model of delivery.

I ask the witnesses to comment on the role and operation of the metropolitan area networks in towns. What is the current status of those networks? A significant investment was made to provide them. In many cases, the cost of delivering a metropolitan area network service to businesses in towns has proven to be prohibitive. I would be interested to hear anything they might have to say on that issue.

I will conclude by asking about the issue of roaming, with particular reference to the delivery of telecommunications infrastructure along the Foyle coast. Mr. McColgan is familiar with the area in question. Is ERNACT in a position to play a role in breaking down barriers there? People living in Border areas are continuing to experience significant cost difficulties. I refer in particular to people on the Republic of Ireland side of Lough Foyle who have no choice other than to operate off a Northern Ireland mobile telephone and pay the significant fees associated with that. For these people, the lack of proper availability of reasonably costed options, like those other people are able to avail of, is a real barrier to the use of telecommunications. Companies are charging more even though, as I understand it, it does not necessarily cost them anything. There are ways around it if the willingness is there.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman. I apologise for missing the presentation. I was attending a meeting of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade. I welcome the witnesses. I have known Ms Rena Donaghey for many years. I met some of the other delegates more recently. Their project is very interesting. When I flicked through the briefing we were given, I did not see any mention of the witnesses' interaction with education providers. The north west is fortunate to be so well served by further and higher education, for example at Letterkenny Institute of Technology. There is easy access from south Donegal to Institute of Technology, Sligo. Magee College and other colleges of further education are based in Derry. As we know, the colleges are playing an increasing and obvious role in regenerating local economies and the national economy. Are the colleges in places like Letterkenny and Derry centrally involved in the witnesses' proposals for what is needed in the region? Are they ensuring the potential of the region is maximised to the best extent possible from the point of view of learning, providing services and creating jobs?

As Deputy McConalogue said, easy access to adequate broadband is a huge issue in rural areas, particularly for people who are working from home. Many people, including farmers trying to register their calves with the Department, are frustrated by the lack of adequate broadband. At a time when many families are under financial pressure, many children stay at home full-time when they are in third level education. Like Deputy Conlan, I know many people in counties Cavan and Monaghan who are living at home while attending Dundalk Institute of Technology. If they do not have proper broadband at home, it makes it much more difficult for them to study and to access the documents they need. I am sorry I missed the witnesses' presentation. Having made a quick perusal of their document, it seems to me that the central involvement of the education providers is absolutely essential in everything we do to provide better services and develop our economies regionally and nationally.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome all the witnesses, particularly my very good friend, Councillor Rena Donaghey, who is an outstanding politician on the Inishowen Peninsula. One might get the impression that broadband services in the north west gateway are highly developed. Is the high-speed broadband that has been provided in the Letterkenny and Derry area accessible to SMEs and households in all locations? Does everybody in that area have access? What is the quality of the mobile phone coverage for businesses, tourists and families? My experience of going around Ireland is that it is hard to believe how erratic mobile phone coverage is. Have the witnesses looked at the broadband issues along the other Border counties of Louth, Newry-Mourne, Monaghan, Cavan and Leitrim?
Yesterday's extraordinary announcement of a joint venture between the ESB and Vodafone is a magnificent development. It will mean that regional towns leapfrog over major cities in this respect. According to the press release, "Ireland will also become the first country in Europe to utilise existing electricity infrastructure ... to deploy fibre directly into homes and businesses". It is amazing that we will be the first country to use electricity in this way. This €450 million investment will have a dramatic effect. I would like to hear the witnesses' comments on it. I would like to quote from the report on this initiative in The Irish Timeswhich states:

Vodafone chief executive Anne O’Leary said the fibre broadband network will allow people working from home to send very large files to their workplace in seconds. They will also be able to hold video calls to China without disruption.

Seán Conlan (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. I am interested in the work they are doing in the north west. I live in County Monaghan. It is clear that the same issues apply along the Border in counties Armagh, Monaghan, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Cavan. The key for me is that every home in the area should have access to fast broadband. It has been mentioned that many people commute to institutes of further education each day. If they do not have decent broadband access when they come home in the evening, it is a major problem. Over the last two years, the Government has tried to provide extra money to ensure broadband is provided in schools in counties Monaghan and Cavan. That work is ongoing. I think a similar investment has to be made in each household. We should be trying to focus on how that can be done at the lowest possible cost. I was interested to hear what was said about the Swedish example. It has been pointed out that we have poles all over the country and that it is not as if we have to start developing new infrastructure in that regard.

Roaming charges and poor 3G coverage are other issues for people in Monaghan and the other Border counties. The nature of the landscape in the Border area where I live tends to lead to a situation where coverage is lost when one goes around every turn. What kind of solutions have been found in the north west to deal with these challenges? We need to deal with them across the whole Border region. I am very interested in Project Kelvin, which goes through Monaghan town right beside the education campus. We invested €50 million in the development of the campus over the last two years. Clearly, we want to get the maximum benefit from the education campus in terms of further education for people in the region. We would like to be able to utilise Project Kelvin. I would like to know whether the witnesses have found solutions that will facilitate that. When it was first announced with great fanfare, we felt it would be a panacea to all our ills.

It seems it does not mesh well with much other infrastructure. Have solutions been found in the region to overcome those problems?

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Letterkenny is one of the towns that ESB and Vodafone have singled out from the 50 regional towns.

Mr. Colm McColgan:

There were many questions so I will kick off before letting in others. I will make some general points before coming to the more specific questions. We are most concerned about rural areas and we are not really concerned about Letterkenny, Derry or Monaghan town. Those places will be fine in the medium term, although there are challenges. Everything will be sorted out with them. We have discovered with our work in Europe that the debate has moved on. It is no longer a debate about putting a fibre-optic connection between Letterkenny and Derry or between Monaghan town and Armagh. That is happening, and I appreciate there are some temporary or short-term challenges but the real debate now has used to the end users. These are people in rural houses, farms and small, cultural businesses in very remote areas.

The most advanced regions are moving to putting fibre in people's premises, or otherwise they will be left behind. An article in yesterday's newspaper indicated that parts of Dublin would get 1,000 Mbps into houses but very remote farms in Finland and Sweden are already getting that type of service. These regions have raised the bar, and as Deputy McConalogue mentioned, rural areas are becoming even more remote, and if drastic action is not taken, the communities will not survive. I am not suggesting that could happen here, as we are much more densely populated than Finland and Sweden, but that is a driving concept for those countries. As there is so much fibre going around the place, the mobile telecom operators are asking to put a 3G or 4G antenna on farm buildings, as there is a local fibre-optic cable. It is a reversal of the thinking behind the concept.

In the United Kingdom they have tried to bring fibre to as many places as possible while covering other areas with wireless coverage. In other countries, fibre is being installed everywhere and operators are using that by paying farmers to host 3G equipment. Not only do these farmers have fantastic speed into houses because of fibre but they also have magnificent wireless coverage. The drumlins in Cavan, the hills of Donegal and the Sperrins have very bad coverage but it is becoming less of an issue.

We are very interested in what the ESB is doing as a technical solution, and there is an ESB cable going into every house in the South; there is an electricity cable going into every house in the North as well. It is a way of tackling the technical issue. In many of the places we work, it is already being done, and although I have noted remarks that a certain party is the first to do it, that is not necessarily true. People will use the best technical solution and we would love the ESB to do that. We are talking about a difference in the approach. If the ESB approach could be applied to every house in Ireland, it would work. Nevertheless, it is driven from the centre, and with the experience we have had over the past 20 or 30 years, by the time the work hits Malin Head or parts of Kerry, it will be years down the line. We are suggesting a change in approach, with local communities being given the chance to see if the Scandinavian model will work here. It could be done more cheaply and faster, and it would not be subject to the vagaries of central government planning. We know that is very important, as it is in Sweden, but more power is given to local areas. We saw a slide earlier detailing what we were able to achieve on a cross-Border basis in the north west. We were able to increase the cross-Border fibre connections from zero to four between 2000 and 2008 with the support of central government and councils getting together. Many community groups were also involved.

This approach will work and we have spoken to people in the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development in the North. They seem quite receptive to it. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment in the North deals with telecoms issues, and telecoms regulators are very conservative people. They have become even more conservative over the past ten years and they do not like these kinds of solutions. They want to get £500,000 of public money and put a project to tender. Usually, the existing telecoms operators will win such projects. That is a good solution for many places but this approach must be allied to this other approach.

The announcements by the ESB yesterday will not have any impact in rural areas, and they are designed for towns of above 4,000 people. We understand the process will only apply in Letterkenny in Donegal, which is a town of 10,000 or 12,000 people. The announcement by Vodafone and the ESB is totally market-driven, which is welcome, although it will only work in the bigger towns and cities. They have done their calculations.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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It is aimed at smaller regional towns rather than large cities. The focus is on 50 medium-sized towns, including Ballina and Tralee. It will leap-frog regional towns over larger cities.

Mr. Colm McColgan:

Those towns will be okay. In Donegal, 60% of the population does not live in a town but rather in the countryside.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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It is 75%.

Mr. Colm McColgan:

The solution announced yesterday will not benefit those people.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Is the broadband available in those counties rather than towns?

Mr. Gerard Diver:

It would be very patchy even when one goes outside the main area population of Derry City Council. It is a matter of mindset in how to provide broadband. Anything driven from the centre will be fraught with difficulty with regard to potential to impact the most remote people. We have seen the examples mentioned from Scandinavia first-hand.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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We need to know more about that.

Mr. Gerard Diver:

There is a very strong element of community initiative where people have got together and stepped into that vacuum where the market has not been able to do it.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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What can this committee do to help?

Mr. Gerard Diver:

It would be hard to over-emphasise the potential impact that could have in rural Ireland where we are losing people. People are migrating to centres of population because that is where the broadband coverage is and the job opportunities. In areas such as Sweden and Finland people can live in very remote areas and still work in high tech jobs for Nokia or Microsoft and do exactly what the Senator said earlier about sending large files to their employer or having a conference or a Skype call to somebody in China or Japan. This is something unseen but it could unlock many of the problems we are facing in Ireland, outside of the major centres of population, to reinvigorate those areas by the application of technology to overcome the peripherality and the problems we have had in the past.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Through the Chair, what can this committee do to help this initiative?

Mr. Gerard Diver:

In part it is about influencing public policy, it is about a change in public policy that is not coming from the centre and not necessarily influenced by what the market thinks is best and what the telecommunications-----

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Can local authorities do it?

Mr. Gerard Diver:

Yes, and Government. One of the powerful things about ERNACT as a network is that it was two local authorities that decided to do something.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. Gerard Diver:

There were questions earlier about what Government policy is and our awareness of that. This is where two municipalities essentially have taken the lead and have done something which now has a European significance.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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What can this committee do to help with this ideal initiative?

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Seán Conlan wants to speak. I will then call Deputy Thomas Pringle followed by Ms Rena Donaghey and Mr. Brian Boyle.

Seán Conlan (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I think the point was illustrated earlier in terms of coming from the smallest communities up rather than from the centre out. These initiatives announced yesterday are good for the large regional centres. In my area, towns such as Monaghan and Cavan will get fast broadband in any event, but I am concerned that towns such as Belturbet, Ballybay, Coothill, Castleblayney and Clones will not get high speed broadband if we do not change our approach. It is important that these towns get fast broadband and are not left behind. There are initiatives for the villages but the small towns are being left out and, obviously, the individual units, the individual farms and the individual SMEs in the rural areas are in a predicament. I think Mr. McColgan's approach is correct, we have to change mindsets. If we continue to say it is okay that 50 regional towns are getting new infrastructure, that leaves behind all the other small towns. That is the reality of it.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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What happened yesterday was dramatic.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Thomas Pringle and then the panel.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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I would caution on one aspect. In regard to small towns and villages being able to apply to do this themselves, we have a model of that already, which is the group water scheme sector. Donegal County Council has been frozen for the past eight years in terms of group schemes because it is dependent on Government grants. I would advise caution because I could foresee a fancy announcement where a Minister would say a fantastic scheme is being rolled out that will bring broadband to every town in the country, for which the Government will allocate €2 million per annum. That is the solution for a government. It is a great PR stunt that looks fantastic but does nothing on the ground in terms of delivering for the communities who need it. As Mr. Brian Boyle is aware, there are group schemes in Donegal that have been trying to get water into their communities for the past 30 or 40 years but can do it because they have not been able to access funding. I agree with much of what Mr. McColgan has said and there is value in it in terms of a real solution, given that the ESB is owned by the citizens of Ireland and the technology is available. It is feasible, it can be done and it is not hugely expensive. What is the timescale for the rollout of the project in Sweden? What investment was required of the Government to deliver these community projects? What is the commitment to rolling it out within a reasonable timescale?

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Pringle. I am conscious of the fact that Mr. McColgan has already indicated that the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development is supportive of the idea. He also made the proposal that perhaps we should look at a pilot or one village or town that straddles both areas.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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It is only a suggestion but Senator Mary White has asked how we can help. The job of this committee is to ensure that all the contributions are put on the desk of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources on this side of the Border and then, obviously, there is a role for local authorities. I call Ms Rena Donaghey.

Ms Rena Donaghey:

My name is Rena Donaghey and I am a public representative for the Inishowen Peninsula. I have been a county councillor for 15 years and I am aware of many of the challenges in Inishowen. We have a population of more than 40,000. The peninsula. which is equivalent in size to counties Louth or Leitrim, is very rural. The lack of broadband is debilitating for primary and secondary schools and students cannot achieve their potential. While I do not want to rehearse what has already been said, these are the problems I am hearing about on the doorsteps on a daily basis. We have talked about businesses and SMEs. It is difficult to keep our graduates at home when we have such a poor broadband system. Yesterday's announcement, while it was welcome, does not do anything for me or the 43,000 people whom Deputy Charlie McConalogue and I represent. It is for larger towns, it is regional rather than rural. Buncrana, the town I represent, has a population of 4,000 but is not one of the 50 towns listed. I am the mother of two students who cannot use the Internet properly because it is too slow for uploading bigger files. The examples that Mr. Colm McColgan has given are very real.

Ms Rena Donaghey:

I have been to Sweden and have spoken to politicians there who have outlined exactly how it can be done. The Chairman, Deputy Joe McHugh and Deputy Charlie McConalogue, will be very familiar with a community incentive scheme in which I have been involved in Inishowen, similar to the group water schemes Deputy Thomas Pringle mentioned. This was a community assist scheme, it is part of the Wild Atlantic Way that was not able to accept coaches or larger buses. I initiated a scheme last year where I got public money from Donegal County Council and got the community involved with their JCBs, men with shovels and spades, tractor and trailers. We did a terrific job. Some members may be aware of it as Eileen Magnier covered it on RTE News. While I welcome yesterday's announcement, what do I say to the 43,000 people in Inishowen whom I represent as there is nothing in it for them? It is intended that 100,000 houses will be connected each year under this scheme for the next five years up to 2019. Do we in Inishowen have to wait until after that time to get broadband for our area?

The education and training boards invested very heavily last year and will do so again this year on teaching farmers how to do their business on line. I am teaching them how to do it but yet when they go home they cannot do it because they do not have the broadband.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank Councillor Donaghey. I call Mr. Brian Boyle.

Mr. Brian Boyle:

The collaborative scheme announced yesterday between the ESB and Vodafone is welcome. Any significant improvement in telecommunications capacity, especially where it involves fibre to the home is welcome. The limitation of the scheme is that it is intended to be rolled out only to centres of high population of 4,000 to 5,000 plus. It does however answer a question that has been unresolved in that the way to deliver high speed broadband is through fibre to the home. There has been some discussion, which is still ongoing, as to whether fixed wireless or even 4G could be the answer.

The experience from Europe and elsewhere is that is not the answer. The answer to delivering high-speed broadband is a fibre-optic network to the home. Perhaps one of the benefits of yesterday's scheme will be to get that argument over the line in this country.

Another scheme was announced also, in March or April this year, to bring high-speed broadband - the use of a fibre backbone was mentioned in the initial documentation - to rural areas. A range of townlands was mentioned for each county, with 40 alone in County Donegal. However, there was little detail as to how this scheme would be rolled out. If we have a collective role to play, perhaps the committee could suggest to the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources that the model being used in the collaborative venture between the ESB and Vodafone in the bigger towns be the model also for the rural areas. As Deputy Pringle said, there is a huge advantage in using the publicly owned ESB network, which services every house in the land, to deliver fibre connectivity. However, it would be a shame if that scheme was delayed pending delivery of this other scheme, because we could be looking at a long timescale.

Mention was made of the Scandinavian model and whether the fibre cables should be underground or overhead. I saw an example in Slovenia last year in which one of our partner projects used both models. Networks were built in the ground and fibre was also run on the electricity network, depending on what suited the circumstances. Perhaps a combination of models would be suitable. The important factor from our perspective is that the policy decision is made and that we figure out a way to do it quickly.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday's announcement is important in the broader sense, as we will be the first country in Europe to do this. I understand we are focusing on rural areas, but we will be the first country in Europe to use the electricity network.

Mr. Gerard Diver:

We are not.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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According to the ESB and Vodafone, Ireland will become the first country in Europe to utilise existing electricity infrastructure to deploy fibre connections directly to homes and businesses, initially reaching 500,000 premises. We cannot deflate what happened yesterday, because that is the way we must go.

I am disappointed to hear Councillor Donaghey say that so few homes will get high-speed broadband or that it will be so sparse.

Ms Rena Donaghey:

Inishowen is a very rural area.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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We will take the final responses shortly. Deputy Smith wishes to comment.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Some of the contributions made gave the impression there is no broadband anywhere. We need to balance our comments. There is a very good broadband service available in some towns and villages, but the service is patchy. I did not have the opportunity to read the announcement made yesterday, but we have had numerous initiatives over the past ten or 12 years in regard to rolling out broadband. Perhaps it is an issue of co-ordination and perhaps an onus should be placed on telecommunications providers to provide broadband to every house in the country.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Sorry for interrupting, Deputy, but will members please turn off their phones? It seems a phone is interfering with the sound system.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We have seen various initiatives, but there are still pockets of the country that have been left unprovided for. I know of some villages and towns in my county that have good broadband, but there is poor coverage just half a mile out the road from them. Some houses fall between one broadband-enabled exchange and another exchange that is not broadband-enabled. Small villages near towns often only had small exchanges and these have not been broadband-enabled. Unfortunately, pockets of the country are being left out.

Ms Donaghey made a good point that people can go to classes and get the skills, but are not able to use those skills at home to do the practical work. This is a serious issue. We need to pull together to resolve the issues. Local authorities, statutory agencies and national government all have a role to play on this. It will not happen if each sector leaves it to the other. Every month that goes by without a broadband service is a huge loss to households and business. This issue is of utmost importance. Like our Chairman, I represent a rural area, Cavan-Monaghan, where we have particular problems on account of the drumlins. It defies logic in this technologically advanced era that a hill can still stop a message from getting across to another area. This baffles me at times.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I can relate to that.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps Mr. McColgan will respond on some of the points I mentioned. I thank Ms Donaghey and Mr. Boyle for their contributions. I would like to acknowledge the work they have done through Donegal County Council. Ms Donaghey is a long-time member of ERNACT and has been very proactive in this area. I congratulate Ms Kennedy on her recent election to Donegal County Council and commend Mr. Diver on his work in ERNACT.

The problem here is getting a grip on what is required. Technology is moving along and developments are happening in the larger urban centres. We hear periodic announcements from the Government on what it says it will deliver to rural areas, but not much is happening outside of what is being driven by companies. Will Mr. McColgan respond to us in regard to the scope of ERNACT and the counties it covers? Will he explain what the €25 million invested in the north-west corridor went into? Does ERNACT have a role, or will it have a role, in regard to roaming? Mention was made in previous contributions of countries that are providing 3G wireless from fixed-line addresses and paying farmers for it. This sounds like a simple but exciting idea. In many rural areas, even good mobile reception is still a problem. Therefore, this idea sounds as though it could be pushed and could be of value.

Mr. Boyle mentioned the announcement made a few months ago regarding delivering broadband to rural areas. What do we know about that, and what exactly is happening? Will he elaborate on what he is aware is happening in that regard? In terms of the north west, nobody knows more about how we can deliver broadband and the current position than the witnesses. If they cannot explain this or are unclear on what is proposed, there is an issue. The difficulty relates to what is happening at national level and to the substance behind the announcements that have been made.

Where do we need to go from here? What needs to happen to drive this forward and make it happen? It seems to me that using poles is the way to go rather than burying the fibre cables. In Sweden, the fibre cables are being buried, but we already have the electricity poles, so this seems the way to go. What needs to happen in terms of getting the ESB on board? Could schemes be developed in local areas or could co-ops put together self-sustaining and self-financing projects which could see investment in ESB poles in areas which would pay back over time? Do we need to develop models such as this? I like the ERNACT perspective on that landscape and on what needs to happen.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. It is worth remembering the good and not-so-good things the ESB has done and is doing. It is great to have the ESB in terms of the social welfare schemes such as subsidised electricity and heating.

There is another issue. The ESB has tried a pilot scheme for broadband but it has not really worked. I offer the example of the town of Tuam, County Galway, an area I represent. The company had to abandon the scheme and we had to start all over again. Believe it or not, we had to wait for a water and sewerage scheme in Tuam before we could put the broadband cables underground. We should be careful about that. It is a little like the curate's egg - good in parts.

Reference was made to leaving everything to the ESB, but I do not believe we can do that. I applaud what the ESB has done but I advise caution as well. We cannot allow the company to do everything and I do not believe the company should be expected to do everything either. We need more investment and we need to see people working together.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. We will have a summation from the deputation and then I will respond at that stage.

Mr. Colm McColgan:

The best thing the committee could do is to allow us to try to get policy changed so that we can pilot the Scandinavian model in rural parts of the Border counties. Many people have asked for this and we believe that is the best thing the committee could achieve for us. The Northern Ireland Department of Agriculture and Rural Development is considering the matter but it is by no means over the line. In turn, it must discuss the matter with the more conservative Northern Ireland Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment. That is the main point.

Donegal County Council and Derry City Council established ERNACT. The idea was not so much to do major things but to transfer good ideas from other parts of Europe. This is exactly what we are doing with the Scandinavian model. Approximately ten years ago we were forced to get involved with the Border corridor when we found out there was no broadband network. We acquired considerable experience, as did both councils.

The €25 million referred to was spent on the four fibre-optic lines that run between Letterkenny and Derry and the wireless city model in the centre of Derry. INTERREG money was deployed to introduce wireless capability in rural parts of Donegal and the Border areas. It was done by a local company in Derry and it was a good solution.

The main point is that the whole broadband game is moving on. We are moving to the point at which between 30 and 40 Mbps is becoming the norm, up to 1,000 Mbps. That is the perspective and that is what we are aiming for. We are trying to prepare the Border areas, especially in the north west, for that type of scenario. We believe that if local communities in the Border areas were allowed to pilot this approach we could do a job there, because we have the expertise. Donegal County Council and Derry City Council have a good deal of expertise in this area as well. There is a view that perhaps the expertise does not exist outside the Departments, but it does.

Mr. Gerard Diver:

I thank the members of the committee for hearing us today. This is an essential issue. People need to start thinking about the provision of broadband in the same way as other basic utilities such as water and electricity, rather than as a luxury service to be procured. It is something everyone needs to function.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Can we record our correspondence in the minutes? The proposals of the group are very interesting.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Yes; that is no problem. I thank the witnesses for their very worthwhile presentations. It has been a very interesting discussion and it is extraordinarily relevant. This is one area we should be working on to give real effect to and create a real peace dividend. As we all know, it is a serious problem in rural Ireland and it must be worked on in a collaborative way as much as possible. The committee, through the secretariat, will raise the matter directly with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and his officials as a matter of priority.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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Can we include our correspondence? We discussed it earlier.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Of course; that is no problem. It is a good point. Ultimately, we will arrange to have the Minister or senior officials come before the committee to discuss the implementation and an actual product. Furthermore, we will raise the matter at the North-South Ministerial Council. Effectively, we are saying to the witnesses that they have not wasted their sweetness on the desert air. They have made a good presentation and there will be product and an outcome.

Mary White (Fianna Fail)
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We can meet next week at the North-South Ministerial Council.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Senator, for your assistance. We will do so. Thank you all very much, collectively and individually.