Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I wish to draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they will be entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise the witnesses that the opening statements they have submitted will be published on the committee's website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I advise the witnesses and those in the Visitors Gallery that the meeting is being broadcast live so we must switch off our mobile telephones or put them on aeroplane, safe or flight mode as otherwise they interfere with the broadcasting equipment.
Today's meeting is on the future provision of education in schools for which the archdiocese of Dublin has responsibility, and the possible reconfiguration of schools which may result in proposals for the opening, closure or amalgamation of schools. In recent times concern has arisen on the part of pupils, parents, teachers and communities about plans to open, close or amalgamate schools in a number of locations including Cork and Dublin. The reason for these plans are varied and include falling enrolments, duplication of facilities and moves to divest responsibility for schools or to have a greater range of patrons.
Last week the joint committee considered the matter with the Edmund Rice Schools Trust, and today I am pleased to welcome the archdiocese of Dublin represented by Ms Anne McDonagh, director of education, Ms Catherine Hennessy and Mr. Declan Lawler. I invite Ms McDonagh to make a presentation on behalf of the archdiocese of Dublin.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Dia dhaoibh go léir. I am the director of the education secretariat of the archdiocese of Dublin, the office which manages the educational responsibilities of the Archbishop.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Does somebody have a mobile telephone or computer on?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Mine is turned off.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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There was a bit of interference. Perhaps it was from an iPad.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Ms Hennessy and Mr. Lawlor are the senior education specialists on our team. I am pleased to avail of this opportunity to speak to the committee about the primary schools for which the archdiocese of Dublin has responsibility, and to outline plans for the reconfiguration of schools which may result in their opening, closure or amalgamation. Today we will discuss schools at primary level only.

This is an historic time in education in Dublin and the other counties of the archdiocese. The educational specialists in the diocesan education secretariat are leading significant change. Co-education in schools has been mandated by the State since the 1980s. The archdiocese is making important progress in the amalgamation of girls and boys primary schools into co-educational Catholic schools. Five amalgamations, involving ten schools, have been organised over the past two years. At present 15 schools are involved in negotiations which could lead to nine new schools being established.

Where Catholic schools have amalgamated, they have adapted well despite the significant change involved. Considerable credit is due to the pupils, parents and staff for their commitment. The archdiocese of Dublin is committed to pluralism in educational provision.

I will define two terms. First, and as members are probably aware, "patron" is defined in section 8 of the Education Act 1998 as the person who requests recognition of a primary school from the Department of Education and Skills. He or she is then recognised by the Minister as the patron of the school. In the case of Catholic primary schools, the bishop of the diocese is the patron. The situation is the same for the Church of Ireland. In the case of an education and training board, ETB, its committee is the patron of its new community national schools. In the case of Educate Together, its company is the patron. Some individuals are patrons. Any of us present could apply to be a patron if we wanted to. The Department holds a register of all patrons. When I come to discuss alternative patronages, I will be referring to patronages other than Catholic ones.

Second, "trustees" are the owners of a school. If the school property is owned by the local parish, in other words, it is essentially owned by the diocese, then the archbishop is the trustee as well as the patron. The local parish priest in his role acts as trustee. Sometimes, the primary school property is owned by a religious order, which is occasionally called a congregation. The congregation is the trustee in that case, with the archbishop as the patron. At post-primary level, the situation is different. The terms "trustee" and "patron" are interchangeable under the Education Act.

For well over a century, the archdiocese of Dublin has been involved in primary education. A number of schools that were set up 150 years ago are still in existence. In its role as patron of schools, the archdiocese has an obligation to plan for, evaluate and review on an ongoing basis its provision of schools. It is not the responsibility of the church to be a provider of education for all children, but the church, as part of its mission, is committed to providing Catholic education for those parents who want it for their children. As such, we have embarked on an ongoing and systematic reorganisation of the 466 primary schools in the archdiocese of Dublin.

In reviewing the provision of Catholic education in any particular parish, reorganisation or amalgamation of existing schools under Catholic patronage might be appropriate for any or all of the following considerations. The first is demographics. The recent census showed a population decline in a number of areas in the archdiocese, which has been evident to us in the falling enrolment figures in schools in those areas, for example, parts of Ballyfermot, Cabra, Drimnagh, Crumlin, Greenhills and Walkinstown. Schools that traditionally were large now have empty classrooms. There is an instance of a school building that opened in 1951 with three separate schools. These amalgamated into two schools in 1982 and into one school two years ago because of falling numbers. These large buildings still need to be maintained, insured, repaired, heated and cleaned.

Second, education is a consideration. It is not good for the dynamics of a school or for staff morale to see pupil numbers dwindling and classrooms emptying year by year.

Third, co-education is a consideration. There are schools that have co-education from infants up to first class but where the boys subsequently move for second class to an all-boys senior school while the girls remain in an all-girls senior school. An increasing number of boys' parents are requesting that the boys remain with their classmates in their original schools. Indeed, there is a growing demand from parents for co-education. The forum report to the new schools establishment group, with which the committee is familiar, stated: "There was a widespread demand for co-educational schooling across almost all areas." It is the policy of the Department of Education and Skills that all new primary schools be co-educational. All primary schools that have been opened since the 1980s are co-educational. Parents do not get any choice in the matter.

Fourth, divesting is a consideration. There is a need to provide for alternative patronage. This is not a retreat from the tradition of providing Catholic education. Rather, it is a recognition of the beginnings of a new presence. Catholic education still has its vital place in our education system as something that brings a unique value system, one that is recognised by families of a variety of religious traditions who opt to send their children to Catholic schools. At the same time, as Catholic educators we welcome the fact that there should be other schools that embrace a different ethos and will contribute in their way to the rightful pluralism of educational provision in today's Ireland.

In newly developing areas, the Department of Education and Skills provides for alternative patronage by offering new schools to other patron bodies. In areas of stable demographics, the level of demand for change of patronage still has to be fully ascertained. Many parents are anxious about proposed changes. While we are confident about the future of Catholic education, pluralism in schooling is something that the archdiocese welcomes. As Archbishop Martin stated, however, pluralism in this regard will have to be measured not just in the provision of schools, but in an outcome in which every school, independent of its patronage, becomes a place of welcome for the deprived, the marginalised and those with educational challenges. Pluralism should not give rise to elitism or social division.

A final consideration is finance. Schools that are losing numbers are experiencing financial difficulty. Based on the number of pupils attending a school, the Department pays it a capitation grant each year for its running. One school that we are aware of received a capitation grant of €49,000 and spent €30,000 of it on heat and light because of the size of the building, leaving just €19,000 to pay for insurance and meet other bills. During the past two financial years, some schools have been overspending from their reserves. A number have come to the patron in distress because they have run out of money. From our research, it appears that, in two years' time, a significant percentage of schools will not be able to exist financially based on current departmental funding.

What is the process of reorganisation? There are two forms of amalgamation of schools. One arises from a perceived need at local level. In the other case, the proposal to reorganise schools comes from the diocese or trustees for one or more of the reasons I have mentioned. A sequence of steps takes place. As a first step, discussions always take place with the trustees of the schools involved in order to explore the idea. The next step in the process involves the chairpersons of the boards of management and the principals of the schools. This is a critical part of our consultation process. Research is carried out on aspects of the schools, including pupil numbers over a period of years, future demographic projections for the area, educational viability, accommodation and consequent financial sustainability. If there is a viable proposal, it is brought to the boards of management for consultation. These boards are composed of all of the stakeholders of the school community, namely, nominees of the parents, of the teachers, of the local community and of the patron.

Following agreement among the boards of management it is then brought to the staff of the schools and to the parent body for consultation. This is the structure in place and process followed.
On employment issues, there is agreement between unions and management regarding teacher employment. No teacher loses his or her job. Legislation governs the deployment of the other staff of the school. We have a project team of ten retired principal teachers and Department inspectors who are called in to work as facilitators with schools during an amalgamation. These are people whose expertise is available and called upon by school communities. There is no change in the pupil-teacher ratio, which is set by the Department of Education and Skills and the security of children with special needs is always guaranteed.
On our experience to date, successful reorganisations are those where all of the stakeholders contribute to and respect the process. It has happened that the process was frustrated where information was disclosed at an inappropriate stage. In a small number of cases staff do not see the need to address the situation and have on occasion because of their fear of change engaged in providing misinformation, causing parents to believe that any change would worsen conditions for pupils and staff. This has caused unnecessary distress to communities. In our experience where there is willingness on the part of the principal and teachers to engage with the process, other stakeholders are reassured and support the proposed reorganisation. It is understandable, in a number of cases, that staff might be opposed to the reorganisation of schools in case it results in a loss of resources, ancillary staff and grants. The officials of the Department of Education and Skills are working hard with us to address this matter. Discussions are ongoing in order to resolve this issue and it is hoped that there will be some progress to report in the near future.
If there is disagreement among the stakeholders regarding the reorganisation of the schools, the issue reverts to the boards of management and then to the patron for resolution. The decision to reorganise or amalgamate a school rests with the patron. It is then proposed to the Minister for Education and Skills for approval. The patron has a responsibility under the Education Act to manage schools effectively. It is a complex process. Most amalgamations are managed very successfully and result in dynamic new schools. Over the past two years ten schools were reorganised with great success. I could speak to the committee about any one of those reorganisations. I recall attending the opening of the newly amalgamated St. James's school in Basin Lane. I wish members could have seen the positivity, excitement and energy of the parents, staff, pupils and the community as a whole. One could almost touch it. This was the result of the amalgamation of two great schools into one new vibrant school. It is an example for all. The patron seeks to effect all restructuring as collaboratively as possible, with a view to achieving the best outcome and causing as little disturbance as is feasible to any community because the vision which drives this plan for the reorganisation of schools is the greater good of all of the pupils, their parents and teachers.
I will conclude by reminding members of our vision and approach. The Archdiocese of Dublin is committed to providing Catholic schools for those parents who want a Catholic education for their children. It supports a plurality of patronage and the amalgamation of schools in areas of declining pupil numbers as this will ensure the survival of vibrant Catholic schools into the future. Also amalgamation of schools will provide the option of co-education for parents and theirchildren in Irish education into the future.To be successful, this re-imagining of education provision in Ireland requires the support of parents, teachers, communities and local and national representatives.
I thank members for their attention. Their commitment and support is important to us. If there is anything at local level that they can do to assist us in our work to improve education at primary level in our Catholic schools it will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank Ms McDonagh for her opening statement.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Ms McDonagh and her colleagues to the meeting. I am sure there are many specific issues which members wish to raise with Ms McDonagh today.
Ms McDonagh indicated that there are 15 schools currently in discussions with regard to amalgamations and that this process could lead to nine new schools. In regard to the 466 primary schools in the archdiocese, what discussions have taken place between the archdiocese and the Minister for Education and Skills or his officials in relation to a change of patronage. While I am aware there are a number of proposals in this regard nationally perhaps Ms McDonagh would update the committee on the situation in this regard within the archdiocese.
Ms McDonagh indicated that there is often resistance within a school to amalgamation. In regard to parents and communities, while there may be one or two parents on a school board of management it would appear that the involvement of other parents and communities only occurs later in the process, perhaps when proposals have been developed and serious consideration has been given to how to proceed. Perhaps Ms McDonagh would comment on whether it would make more sense to ensure that parents and communities are involved in the process at an earlier stage.
Ms McDonagh referenced that her research would indicate that a percentage of schools will not be able to exist financially beyond two years from now, which is serious. Perhaps she would elaborate on the percentage of schools in this regard and on whether the schools involved are small schools or schools housed in larger buildings which now accommodate fewer pupils. She might also elaborate from the archdiocese point of view on the dynamic behind why so many schools are finding it difficult to sustain themselves financially. I can hazard a guess that one reason will be the significant cuts in funding but would welcome Ms McDonagh's elaboration on the financial pressures facing many schools and how many of them in her view will not be in a position to fund themselves after the next two years.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am aware of St. James's school in Basin Lane. Amalgamation has worked well in that instance. In other instances, amalgamations are often resisted on the basis that the logic behind the proposals are not explained to the community or parents. Sometimes, the resistance comes from parents and other times it is from the teachers. The amalgamation with which I am most familiar is the proposed amalgamation in September 2015 of four schools in Ballyfermot into one school. Ms McDonagh referred earlier to 15 schools possibly becoming nine schools following amalgamations. If one removes the four schools about which I am speaking then taking Ms McDonagh's figures 11 schools will become eight schools, which does not suggest an amalgamation in the case of many of the other schools. The figures do not add up in terms of amalgamations.
In Ballyfermot there are two campuses located back to back. The proposal appears to be illogical. Ms McDonagh referred to a falloff in the population in Ballyfermot. However, the census report suggests the opposite. The reason for the fall in pupil numbers in the De La Salle primary school was the opening in the same catchment area less than ten years ago of St. Ultan's primary school, which is operating at capacity.

The Gaelscoileanna in the vicinity, which also draw pupils from Ballyfermot, are run at capacity with large waiting lists. Next year there will potentially be an increase in numbers for Ballyfermot schools. That is not the core point, which is the logic behind the closing of the De La Salle campus, shifting pupils from one very large campus to a more restricted campus which already has prefabricated buildings on it. It defeats any logic.
There are several schools involved and they come under the patronage of the Archbishop and the proposals made by the delegation. What is the proposal for the De La Salle campus if this goes ahead? Much State money has been invested in a degree of modernisation of the De La Salle campus, and the Sonas autism unit was also operating well. What will happen to it and other centres in the De La Salle complex? What will happen to the playground in the Dominican campus if new buildings must be created for a physical education hall and facilitation of the autism centre's transfer? Extra classrooms will also be required if the schools are to be amalgamated, so are there plans to dispose of the De La Salle lands, including the playing fields and buildings? Will they be retained for other community or educational purposes that may add to the campus?
I am not opposed to the amalgamation per seif both campuses are retained and the existing capacity is used correctly. The more educational space available to a community which has suffered much disadvantage over the years, the better for that community in future. There have been problems with how the amalgamation has been presented to parents. The delegation has mentioned stakeholders, and the orders and patrons seem to have been able to communicate the matters among themselves, but that has not filtered out as accurately as it should have to stakeholders. They were originally told last November that the school was to close in September this year, but by raising the issue, it seems the process has been delayed for a year. Only yesterday the De La Salle brothers sent home with all the boys a note stating that primary education in Ballyfermot is being reorganised by the patron because of declining numbers of pupils in the school, with all Catholic primary schools being located on the former Dominican site after 31 August 2015. It stated that the De La Salle campus would no longer be used as a primary school and that the planned restructuring was designed to ensure continued high-quality education into the future for all the children in Ballyfermot. Nothing said by me or the delegation contradicts the statement, but it seems illogical.
There is another key point. Has the patron been in full consultation with one of the primary stakeholders - the Department of Education and Skills - about its plans, and how far back they were initiated?

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I join the members in welcoming our visitors, and I thank them for the presentation. My cúpla focail will be somewhat short, as I too wanted to raise the Ballyfermot issue, and Deputy Ó Snodaigh dealt with it in a very comprehensive way. My attention was drawn to this as somebody who happens to be a past pupil of the De La Salle and Dominican schools in Ballyfermot. It seems the De La Salle brothers have handled the issue in a way with which we cannot be altogether happy. It is my understanding that until the statement came out yesterday, they were silent on this particular issue, which has been less than helpful. It has created an atmosphere of consternation, in effect, among many parents.

Another issue is the inclusion of the facilities on the Dominican campus. To what extent have they been included in discussion? What proposals have there been in this regard? There is a major capacity issue and it is my understanding that the Dominican campus will not be in a position to take on an additional 300 students. That is a practical consideration. I am interested in the responses.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I welcome the delegation and the parents from the De La Salle school. I have some experience of the matter under discussion and I met Ms McDonagh at her office. I have also exchanged telephone calls, letters and so on. What struck me in my first interface with the archdiocese was rather different from what I am hearing today. I remember making the statement that parents must be the primary partners in the education process, and the impression I got from the outset was that if parents are the primary partners, they must be brought on board at the very beginning and consulted, and their views must be taken on board so as to be factored into any decisions. I did not get that impression, but rather the idea that parents would be told when a decision was made by the archdiocese. Essentially, they would be factored out of the negotiations. Parents in Ballyfermot never gave me the impression that they were being consulted from an early stage or that they understood the rationale and reason behind this. There has been enormous confusion, anger and worry among parents. No parent wants any undue interference in the education of children, particularly when they are doing well.

The archdiocese proposes the amalgamation of four schools into two schools. The outlandish dimension is that among those four schools, the best is the De La Salle school. Architecturally it is one of the finest school buildings in Dublin city, and it has one of the finest campuses, as it is spacious and ample, with football pitches and sporting facilities for young, energetic people to run around. These are critical in the development of children. It also has enormous resources inside the buildings, and parents have worked tirelessly over generations with the principal and staff to build these so that the needs of children would be met. Nevertheless, the proposal is to put an end to this school, despite its being one of the anchors of education in Ballyfermot.

It is a disgrace that someone sitting in Archbishop's House could make that decision against the profound sentiments and wishes of parents, and wishes of the whole community. It does not make any sense. If one must amalgamate and reconfigure, surely one keeps the strongest cards, one keeps the best buildings, one keeps the buildings with the best traditions, best resources and the best facilities. That, I think, is logical. What is being proposed here is that the best is being excluded and four schools are being pushed into a campus in which one can barely swing a cat. It is an outlandish proposal. I invite the committee to look at the terrain and campus.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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We will.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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It makes no sense to close down the best and squash everyone into the inferior campus, and I do not mean in schools. I am talking in terms of physical space and the buildings, architecturally and physically.

It is an insult to the people. Everyone in Ballyfermot is angry, and not just the parents, because this is a landmark building. It stands out and is a very attractive building and grounds. The Archbishop's House should reconsider what it has embarked upon and treat parents as partners, not as people to be told what it has decided. Parents must be treated as partners. If one listens to the parents and treat them as partners one will hear a resounding call that the best school should be retained and become the anchor of any reconfiguration, if it goes ahead.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Two more people have indicated a wish to speak at this stage. Will they wait and I will come back to people then later? Agreed. I call on Ms McDonagh to respond to the issues raised.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

I will return to what I said in my presentation about the process, where we go through a process and when we talk to parents which might address some of the different things people said. Then I will go through the different questions people asked.

I will start at the end. With regards telling parents what we have decided, we do not decide, in Archbishop's House, what to do. As I said, we start at the beginning and we consult people at local level.

I will address the Ballyfermot issue because I know it is of concern to people here. In Ballyfermot information was released at an inappropriate stage and the first I knew of it was when I got telephone calls from very worried parents. They thought that their children were going to end up in large classes, and be separated from their friends. That happened before the boards of management got a chance to call the meeting and talk to parents about this matter, and exactly as the Deputy said, to discuss with parents the rationale and talk to them about the thinking behind it. The people in Ballyfermot - before the Archbishop's House ever heard about any re-organisation - the educational leaders in Ballyfermot got together. Therefore, the chairpersons of five schools, as there were at the time in 2008, met and employed a facilitator to talk about the future of education in Ballyfermot because they themselves decided that there were too many schools for the number of children. The chairpersons in the first instance met the facilitators. The first I heard of it was when I was asked whether I would come to a meeting where the principals would attend with a facilitator. These talks go back as far as that time. It was at local level that all this talk was going on because they had decided the schools were far too big for the number of pupils that were around. That is how the whole situation works.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I live in lower Ballyfermot and taught for 33 years. Ms McDonagh has said that all this talk was going on but I never heard talk of this sort from parents, teachers or principals.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

The meetings were held. Fr. Michael O'Kelly was the parish priest at the time. He employed the facilitator and that was the first I knew about the matter. He invited me to a meeting one night at 7.30 p.m., in the dark, and I got lost on my way out to the schools. That was my first visit there and it was in 2008. One of the chairpersons of the schools told me that they were talking about this since the late 1990s, which was said at one of the meetings lately. The meetings I know about started in 2008. That is where the talks started - at local level.

Generally, when I have spoken about any of the successful amalgamations in the past few years I have outlined the steps involved. Parents are called in. All of the rationale behind the thinking that is going on is explained to the parents. Before that happened in Ballyfermot somebody released information at an inappropriate time and, as a result, parents telephoned me and were very upset. I am a parent of children and I would not be happy if information came home from my school in the way it happened in Ballyfermot. It is no wonder the parents were upset. They did not know what was going on or the rationale behind it.

Deputy Conaghan mentioned the campus in De La Salle. He is correct that it is an outstanding campus. I do not know whether everyone has seen it but it is beautiful. It has a fabulous building and terrific grounds. The Deputy wondered why one school was chosen rather than the other. The archdiocese of Dublin does not own the De La Salle campus. It owns the Dominican campus because the Dominican congregation handed its schools over to the archdiocese, as have a number of congregations. Over the years a number of congregations have come to us and said that because they are getting older and there are fewer of them they cannot manage and they have handed over to the archdiocese. The Dominican Order did that a number of years ago. Therefore, the Ballyfermot parish owns the Dominican site and the De La Salle Brothers own the other site.

Let us look at the rationale. I have figures for repair bills. Three years ago the repair bill for the De La Salle building was €70,000, the repair bill two years ago was €63,000 and the repair bill in the year 2012-13 was €70,000. That is a total spend of €203,000 in three years which is unrecoverable and there is no grant available from the Department of Education and Skills. The building has a copper roof and €30,000 of the expenditure was to do with the roof. Earlier, I gave heating and lighting costs for the school as an example. The size of the building means it is unsustainable. In an ideal world a philanthropist would pay for all that work but the State will not do so. Those are the facts of the matter.

The number of children at the moment means the grants will not pay for two campuses. We got the Department to appoint an architect - a departmental architect - and look at the site on the former Dominican campus to assess whether it would fit all of the children. We have got word back from the Department that it will.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I would not believe that, particularly if one looked at apartments that have been built in Dublin, and a few on Duke Street.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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This is the same architect who did not know that the autism centre was in the De La Salle centre.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Members can ask supplementary questions later. Please allow Ms McDonagh to continue.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Other Members asked questions which I will answer in reverse and then I will get around to the original question.

With regard to the four schools being made into one, it is not four schools going into one as no decision has been made. The reason no decision has been made is because the opposition to the project has stymied all of the plans that should be made. The difficulty is that the De La Salle Brothers will finish in 2015.

I was really thinking about the parents and their concerns. There is no doubt that the number of pupils does not warrant two extensive sites. The schools need to be organised and we need to submit a proposal to the Department of Education and Skills. The Department will not put anything in writing about the building of an autism unit, which we need, or the building of a general purpose hall, which we also need. It will not put that in writing until we tell the Department what the structure of the new schools will be. We have to say whether we are going to have a junior and senior school, two vertical schools or three schools.

Nobody ever said there would be one school. That was never in any discussion. No decision has been made about that yet because all of these discussions have been stymied due to the level of opposition. Until these firm proposals are made to the Department of Education and Skills, it will not give us a guarantee about what will happen. What will ultimately happen is that the children will end up going down to the site and we will have less than satisfactory facilities for them, which will be a crying shame. Plans have to be made on the type of structure which will be there - whatever is best - and that will decided by the educational leaders locally.

People said we did not talk to parents. I have a list of the various times we met parents and the schools met parents. Originally, this was supposed to take place in 2014 but based on a request from the parents, it was pushed back to 2015. A meeting was held with parents and representatives from the four schools on 21 November 2013. It took place in Archbishop's House with members of the education secretariat. That was when it was agreed to postpone it until September 2015 to allow parents to become aware of what was happening. There was a meeting on 12 December 2013 when another group of parents came to Archbishop's House. On 20 January 2014, a survey was carried out with the parents. On 10 February 2014, correspondence was received from the Archbishop and he wrote back to the parents after that.

In February 2014, one of our project team spoke to the chairperson of the parents group in regard to correspondence he got from it. The chairperson said the yard was inadequate. That particular person from the project team was the principal of a newly-built school with more than 600 pupils and he said his yard would fit into the yard on the Dominican campus three times over. The yards are state-of-the-art. There were huge facilities in schools way back but they are no longer in schools.

Archbishop Martin met the De La Salle group on 11 April 2014. One of the chairs of the three schools on the Dominican campus said quite a number of parents were in favour of this. A number of parents who talk about the school transferring to the Dominican campus are parents of children who have all gone to the Dominican campus for the first three years, have been very happy there and there is no problem with anything.

In terms of parents being the primary partners and bringing them on board at the outset, and when I talk about the different stages in the process, one must talk to the trustees and the chairpersons at the beginning before one starts to talk to the parents. There is no point in bringing something to the parents if it will not be a viable option. That is why it has to be brought to the chairpersons and the principals at the beginning, that is, to examine the whole situation to see if it is feasible. Once they decide there is a feasible option, it is only then that it is brought to the parents and the staff for discussion. There is no point bringing something to the staff or the parents if it is not going to work. This process has been worked out between the unions and management. I think the agreement between unions and management as to how all of this should be done is there since 1983. As I said, it works very well anywhere it is carried out properly and where the proper steps are followed.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I welcome Ms McDonagh. I am coming from a very objective background because I live beside the Islamic mosque in Clonskeagh. I have come here with a completely new ear and new eye, which can be interesting in terms of the questions. Is it true the De La Salle site would accommodate everything very well if the money was there to be put into it? Has the archdiocese of Dublin spoken to the De La Salle Brothers? Are the De La Salle Brother selling the site? Did the architect look at the De La Salle site since he was so quick to look at the Dominican site? I despair at architects who make people live in boxes which they call apartments. Most of them have no vision and no creativity. It is all about economy of scale and is not about anything else.

Would it be possible for this committee to visit the De La Salle site and the Dominican site if we are to take this argument further?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

On the question of whether the De La Salle site would accommodate all of the pupils, I do not know. The site, which belongs to the archdiocese, is what was formerly the Dominican site.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Ms McDonagh must have seen-----

Ms Anne McDonagh:

I have seen it but we have not done any study of it.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Ms McDonagh would have an idea in the back of her mind as to what she is trying to accommodate? She would have an idea from looking at it whether it would be ideal, in terms of an outdoor and an indoor facility, if one had the money.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

One might but if it does not belong to us-----

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Leave out the belonging part but, generally speaking, looking at it-----

Ms Anne McDonagh:

It might but I could not definitively say "Yes" or "No".

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I suppose it is hypothetical because the Department would have to decide.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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That is true but I am just asking a creative question. Does Ms McDonagh think from looking at it, that the site would accommodate what she is looking for in the amalgamation, inside and outside?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

It is a senior boys' school, so it might but I do not know. We have spoken to the De La Salle trustees. They have said they are no longer able to act as trustees into the future.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Are they selling the site then?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

They have not said what they are doing with the site.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Senator O'Donnell, when you ask a question, will you go through the Chair? It is for broadcasting and recording purposes.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I beg your pardon.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

The De La Salle trustees have not said to us what they are doing and it would not be appropriate for me to talk about somebody else's property. I do not know what they will do with it.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I suggest that the impetus for this so-called reconfiguration is not coming from the De La Salle Brothers in any sense or in any form but from Archbishop's House solely.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Ms McDonagh dealt with what will happen with the campus. The answer is that it is for the De La Salle Brothers to decide. Deputy McConalogue asked about the financial difficulties. A couple of questions are outstanding. Will Ms McDonagh go back to Deputy McConalogue's question?

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Does the Chairman or the committee think it would be a good idea for the committee to visit both sites?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We can look into that as a committee and anyone who is available can decide. Deputy Keating asked a question about whether the Dominicans were involved in the negotiations?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

I said earlier that an impetus for an amalgamation can come from many quarters. Deputy Conaghan said the impetus came from the diocese. It did not come from the diocese. As I said earlier, discussions took place at local level in Ballyfermot and started-----

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I believe differently and I will not be convinced otherwise.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

The Deputy could check locally.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I know.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

That is the case.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I know and I will not be convinced otherwise.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Just to put that on the record-----

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Yes but it is a mis-recording-----

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I do not think it is fair to say that. Ms McDonagh has said what is the position from her point of view.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Deputy McConalogue asked about discussions with the Minister about change of patronage.

The only school that has been divested in the archdiocese of Dublin so far is the one in James's Street which was amalgamated with the school on Basin Lane, to which I referred earlier.

I think Deputy McConalogue asked a question about resistance among school staff. Is that correct?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Ms McDonagh referred to that issue in her contribution. The point I was asking for clarification on was where the parents and community come into the process. It seems that they enter the process quite late. I was making the point that it would be important to involve them at the very early stages, before a pathway is agreed at board of management level or patronage level.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

As soon as there is a viable proposition, they are brought into the discussion.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Viable to whom? What if it is not viable to the parents?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

By viable proposition I mean if there is a good reason for doing it. As I explained in my presentation earlier, it is then brought-----

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Parents, we are told, are the primary partners in the education process. They ought to be the first to be consulted. However, in Ms McDonagh's book, they are the last to be told. They are not consulted at all.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I remind Ms McDonagh that Deputy Keating asked a question about the Dominicans.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Yes, I will come to that presently. Deputy McConalogue's other question was about the percentage of schools that might not continue beyond two years and the size of those schools. A number of schools have come to us in financial distress in the last two years. We are looking at their returns but our research is only in the early stages at the moment. We would reckon that for a significant percentage of schools, there are real concerns. We are trying to work out what size of school is actually able to manage on the grants available but we have not worked that out yet. The Department itself does not know. I spoke to the Department about this matter and it is interested in the data in that regard, in terms of ascertaining what size of school is actually able to manage on the grants, given the significant cuts.. Some schools are able to manage better than others. In some cases, schools are trying to raise money to parental contributions, local fairs and so forth. However, trying to manage on the moneys received from the Department, because of the cuts, is becoming a serious issue for schools. When we have hard and fast figures, we will supply them to the committee. By that I mean, a hard and fast percentage.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Ms McDonagh says it is a "significant" percentage, which is a broad statement. Is she talking about single digits or double digits?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

I would say it is higher than single digits.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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A significant percentage would not be able to continue for longer than two years, based on current financial projections. Is that correct?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Yes. They are eating into their reserves. Those schools that had reserves are eating into them at the moment. That is why we think they will not last longer than two years.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Has the research shown that the schools that are able to manage are those which are able to raise funds from parents and elsewhere?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Yes.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Is the primary reason for this the cuts to various grants, including the minor works scheme, the summer works scheme and the capitation grants?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Yes, I would say so.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Let us say more than 10% of schools will have to close within the next two years. What type of scenario does that present to the archdiocese? Is the archdiocese faced with further amalgamations? Where will it go from there?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Before I bring Ms McDonagh back in, Deputy O'Brien wishes to ask a question.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I can wait.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

We are doing a lot of work with schools. We offer financial training to the boards of management and are trying to get them all to produce a budget, which they have not traditionally done. We are trying the get them to improve their financial management.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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This committee is well aware of the huge pressure on the primary sector in the context of funding. It is interesting to hear Ms McDonagh's perspective on it in the context of the schools with which she works.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

The Deputy also asked a question about change of patronage. There are a number of areas in Dublin that were examined by the forum and the Minister for Education and Skills has asked us to engage again with some of those areas. Malahide-Portmarnock is one such area but it seems that a new school will be built there under alternative patronage. We are going to address that issue again to see what we can do.

Deputy Keating asked whether we engaged with the Dominican Order. The Dominican Order had already handed over its site to the archdiocese so we did not engage with it, beyond the fact that we engaged with a Dominican sister who is chairperson at one of the schools involved.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The answer to the question I asked is "No". Is that correct?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

No. We did not engage with the Dominican Order as such.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I do not mean the Dominican Order. I am referring to the Dominican campus. Did the archdiocese engage with the boards of management of those three schools? I suspect that they would have a different point of view to that of the architect. To what extent ---

Ms Anne McDonagh:

We have engaged with them all of the time.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I wish to distinguish between having a cordial meeting and engaging at a meaningful level so that they are able to plan their future. To what extent were they consulted?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

There are three boards of management on the Dominican campus and three principals. We have engaged with them all of the time. As I said already, since 2008 we have had numerous meetings with them. Some of them have moved in their opinion because of all that has happened, as have the chairperson and principal of De La Salle. Originally they were against the reorganisation but they are now very much in favour of it.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McDonagh said in her statement that the De La Salle Brothers informed the archbishop that they are no longer able to act as trustees. When and how was the archdiocese informed of that? Was it communicated through correspondence or face-to-face meetings? When was that message conveyed to the archbishop?

Ms McDonagh said that De La Salle is an outstanding campus with terrific grounds and yet, nobody has looked at it as an option in the context of this amalgamation. I understand that because it is not in the ownership of the archbishop, he cannot hire an architect to look at it to determine whether it would be a better option. Has the archdiocese had any discussion with the De La Salle Brothers about a possible amalgamation onto that campus rather than the Dominican one? If not, why not?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I have some questions myself. Has the De La Salle Order been approached about the possibility of handing over the campus?

On a more general level, Ms McDonagh spoke earlier about the need to provide for alternative patronage. She said that the archdiocese welcomes the fact that there will be other schools which embrace a different ethos and which will contribute in their own way to the rightful pluralism of educational provision in today's Ireland. She went on to say that Catholic education has a vital place in our education system. I am concerned about this because personally, I am not a fan of the diversity of patronage approach because I feel it has the potential to lead to a more segregated and less inclusive school system.

We discussed this in the Dáil last week. The effect of diversity of patronage in my area is that it is becoming racial segregation. If the Catholic school becomes a school for just Catholic children, is that not less inclusive than what has been provided heretofore, when all children went to the Catholic school? I am not sure how many schools there are in Ballyfermot, but there are towns with only one school, a Catholic school. Surely the objective should be for the Catholic school to be the local school that is open to everybody in the community? As I read it, we are now talking about a more exclusive Catholic school. Is that really desirable when it is a State-funded resource?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

I will respond to the Chairman's question before I answer Deputy O'Brien's questions.

Traditionally, Catholic schools took everybody, and to this day many Catholic schools have people of all religions and none. The schools are very inclusive. As I said in my presentation, quite a number of parents who are not Catholic choose to send their children to Catholic schools, which proves in itself that they are inclusive.

A requirement of the 1998 Education Act is that schools develop an enrolment policy and publish it. They had to specify what children they would accept into their schools. That meant that for the first time people decided that different types of school would take in different types of child. Before that, when we were children, people went to the local national school, but the Education Act determined that an enrolment policy had to be established and then published. Catholic schools are very inclusive, and that has been proved. An ESRI report proved that they are more inclusive than other types of primary school.

I will now respond to Deputy O'Brien's question on whether the De La Salle congregation was approached with a view to having the reorganisation on their site.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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As they were handing over the site, were they approached to do what the Dominicans did?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

No.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Did the brothers consider-----

Ms Anne McDonagh:

With a view to handing it over the diocese? No. The archdiocese has never gone to any congregation asking it to hand its property over to the diocese. There have been cases in which the congregation has come and asked the diocese to take over responsibility for something. That has happened.

Deputy O'Brien asked when the De La Salle congregation sent the statement to the archdiocese. It was sent in written form in December 2013.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Did it state that it was no longer willing to act as a trustee?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

It was an eight-point statement and one of the points was that the congregation would not be in a position to act as a trustee of the De La Salle school into the future.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Was this after the initial proposal to amalgamate the schools, when the Dominican campus was first mooted?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Yes.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Prior to that, had the congregation ever indicated that it was unwilling to remain as a trustee?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

No.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Why did nobody talk to them about the process of a possible amalgamation of schools in the area? I presume they would have been part of that discussion prior to December 2013.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

The chairpersons of the boards of management and the principal of each of the two schools would have been involved in the discussions.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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There was no indication until December 2013, when all of a sudden a statement was issued by the De La Salle Brothers stating that they were no longer willing to act as a trustee for the two schools.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

That was the first time they put it in writing to us.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The timing is important. The discussions started around the possible amalgamation of schools, of which one site is owned by the bishop and one site is owned by the De La Salle Brothers. The proposal that is on the table is to close the site, which has been described by Ms McDonagh as a fantastic campus with terrific grounds, and transfer to a site that does not have the services and facilities to cater for the proposed amalgamation. The school is depending on the Department of Education and Skills to provide funding for the construction of a new autism unit and at least part of a school building - because the Dominican site has a number of prefabricated buildings - as well as a PE hall. When there were discussions on a possible amalgamation, I wonder why the question was not asked as to whether the amalgamated school could be sited on the better site - the site with better facilities. Why was this was not raised in discussions with the De La Salle Brothers?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

That is a very fair question. There were five local chairpersons and five local principals who had been there for a long time. I would consider that they were the education leaders in Ballyfermot. It was they who came up with the proposal to reorganise onto the Dominican campus, not us.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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But the patron of the school-----

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Members can ask supplementary questions, but we should allow Ms McDonagh an opportunity to reply in full.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

It is fair to ask why they decided to go to one side rather than the other. There were three chairpersons and three principals on one side and two chairpersons and two principals on the other, which eventually became one chairperson and one principal when the schools amalgamated. They made this decision at local level. It may have been that there were about 700 pupils on the Dominican site and only 278 pupils on the De La Salle site. That is what I think happened. The De La Salle school had been losing numbers for a few years and was trying to address this issue. It applied to the patron for change of status, as a number of other schools have done when losing numbers. They are thinking all the time of where they will get pupils. It may have been that the other school had 700 pupils. That is what I think happened.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is what Ms McDonagh thinks happened, but has she made inquiries as to what actually happened? The patron has a responsibility as well.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

The patron has the final responsibility. He has the legal responsibility under the Act.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The patron, who is the bishop, could have turned around and said that as the person responsible for ensuring the quality of education, he wanted them to explore other options and not just go along with what seemed to be a fait accompli. When it was a fait accompli, it seems the De La Salle Brothers decided that they could no longer-----

Ms Anne McDonagh:

All of these children, boys and girls, go to school on what was the Dominican campus from junior infants to first class. A number of parents were asking in the Dominican school if the boys could stay on. That would have influenced the decision of the local people. It is the patron's final responsibility, but the patron takes advice from people at local level because they know what is best for the local area.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I agree completely, and this is why the views of the parents should be listened to.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Deputy, there are other members who wish to speak.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is interesting with regard to the sequence. Parents have in the past sought that children would be able to continue in co-education. There were discussions and there will always be discussions among parents if there is no co-educational school on site. That is not where this decision came from.

Ms McDonagh mentioned the boards of management and the principals, but some of them changed their minds as the process went along.

They changed their minds because, when presented with a fait accompli, one has no choice other than to embrace what exists. That is why the boards of management and the archdiocese are looking at the Dominican campus. Basically, they and the parents were given an ultimatum in the letter sent out yesterday. The De La Salle Brothers are saying: "That is it - we are out of here. Away with you to the Dominican campus in 2015." I do not think it is good enough for the De La Salle Brothers to do that. I am not blaming the De La Salle Brothers - I think they have done a great job over the years - but I find it strange that all of sudden they are saying: "Forget about this. We have a site here and we will sell it or we will do whatever with it." They have not indicated anything to the local community. By the looks of it, they have not indicated to the archdiocese what their future intentions are regarding an area that is zoned for educational use and is ideal for the future of education in Ballyfermot. I find it strange that there does not seem to have been any intense contact with the De La Salle Brothers to try to persuade them to stay and play a role. It is possible to amalgamate schools without amalgamating the buildings or the campuses. The amalgamated campuses could be shared. There are three buildings in the De La Salle complex. Some of them could be closed until the numbers grow in the manner suggested by the census.
If this is a fait accompli, approximately 1,000 pupils will turn up on the doors of the Dominican school in September 2015. If the building project goes ahead, as I hope it will, those pupils will also see a building site. Otherwise, all of these children will be pushed into overcrowded classrooms. There are not enough classrooms to facilitate an amalgamation. The architect has been out. With the best will in the world, the Department does not move quickly enough to allow a PE hall and all the ancillary facilities we have mentioned to be built by September. There will not even be space for prefabs. At this stage, somebody needs to ask the De La Salle Brothers whether it is possible to continue to rent or lease the buildings from them on a long-term basis. If they want to divest themselves of their interest in education in Ballyfermot, perhaps they will allow the Dominican Order or the bishop himself to lease the buildings and the playing fields for the foreseeable future. Anyone who visits these sites - I hope the members of the committee take up the offer to do so - will see that the Dominican campus is quite an enclosed space. It might have the size that Ms McDonagh is talking about. As the De La Salle Order has open spaces - grass playing fields - on which children can play hurling or soccer, a PE hall will not necessarily be needed immediately. I accept that every school should have a PE hall. If the De La Salle Order is not willing to accommodate the patron, is there a role for this committee in encouraging the Department of Education and Skills to move to get possession of that land to facilitate the community of primary schools that will still be in the area, albeit on a reduced site?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

We have secured the use of the pitch for the school. One of the serious considerations in the reorganisation was that we did not want to lose the use of the pitch. I spoke to the De La Salle Order. We have secured the use of the pitch for the boys and for the girls as well as part of the new reorganisation.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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How long will that last? If the De La Salle Order decided to divest itself of-----

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Even if they sell, they will mark off the pitch that they are going to give to the school.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can I ask when that commitment was secured?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

I do not know. I can check it for the Deputy.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Was it before December 2013?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

I am not sure. I have it in writing. It was part of the discussions.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The timing of it would be interesting. If Ms McDonagh received a commitment prior to December 2013, is it any wonder De La Salle came out in December 2013 to say it was no longer in a position to be a trustee, if discussions about taking over the leasing of sports facilities had already taken place by that time?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

The De La Salle Brothers knew they were going because they could not last. As they said, the order has fewer and fewer brothers, all of whom are getting older. They issued that statement to the staff in the end because there was so much opposition and controversy there. I think it was sent out to all the parents. We asked them to set out their position and they issued that statement.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to go back to the issue of patronage and the possibility of bringing in a large number of patrons. The Minister for Education and Skills indicated after he was appointed to the Department that he wished to see up to 50% of schools change patronage during his term of office. The reality of how that has progressed is very different. It proved to be quite an incendiary statement by the Minister. I would be interested to know more about the Dublin Archdiocese's 466 schools. They are in close proximity to one another in a way that is not necessarily the case in other parts of the country. Many rural areas, in particular, are served by just one school. One will not find anywhere with a wider choice of schools, where parents have access to more schools within a reasonable distance, than one will find in the area covered by the Archdiocese of Dublin. I would be interested to know more. Can Ms McDonagh elaborate further on her engagement with the Department on the Minister's stated objective of changing the patronage of a significant number of schools? What level of discussion has taken place? On how many of its 466 schools has the archdiocese had discussions with the Minister about a programme of change of patronage?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

When the Department decided to survey various parts of the country, it surveyed nine areas in Dublin and two extra areas in Arklow and Whitehall. We have had a number of meetings with the Department because of the Minister's interest in this issue. We have engaged with schools. We have held meetings with chairpersons and principals in all of those areas. In some areas, we have held meetings with full boards of management if that was what they wanted. As I said earlier, what people want at local level has not yet been ascertained. A reorganisation is taking place in one of the areas I have mentioned. It will take another little while because we are working through the process at the moment. As I have said, we are interested in providing for other choices for people. That is our aim. It will take some time. It is complex. The people to whom we talk tend to think it is a great idea, but not in their schools.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Given that nine areas within the archdiocese were surveyed, it is probable that a maximum of nine schools are being looked at. Are the current discussions focusing on one school in each of the nine areas?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Yes. That does not mean there are no other areas where it might work out.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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The focus up to this point has been on those nine areas. That is where we are at as of today.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

That is right.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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If this works out, we will be talking about nine schools, potentially.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Yes.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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It is important to understand that the impetus for this measure is not coming from teachers, principals or boards of management. I am quite clear in my mind that it is coming from the Archbishop's House. I am certain of that. I will give an example. I happened to bump into a group of students from De La Salle when they were visiting the Dáil with three or four of their teachers, who were adamant about their intentions as teachers in that school. They said their future involved staying in the campus they are currently on. They were quite passionate in their conviction.

They did not have to convince me, but there was another person with me who did not know the area and they were quite passionate about trying to solicit our support the day they were in here. Therefore, the impetus is not coming from priests, the De La Salle Order or any of those other sources.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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To be fair, the teachers are not necessarily representative of the board of management or the principal.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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It was their view, but it is valid. It is probably reflective of the general view among the teaching staff.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

I have been a teacher and have been in education all my life. I have been a union representative and I know where the teachers are coming from. However, teachers go home every day, get a salary into their pockets and will not lose their jobs. The patron, however, has responsibility under the Education Act to look after the affairs of that school. If we look at the repair bill for that school, the teacher has no responsibility whatever for it. To be fair to them-----

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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This is the first time I have heard Ms McDonagh talk about the repair work on the De La Salle school as an issue. I have spoken quite a bit to her and to her staff, but have never heard this mentioned as an issue.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

I am just responding to the point the Deputy made about the teachers. They do not have a responsibility for anything like that, so they-----

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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They have a view on things.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It would be better if the Deputy waited to come back in after Ms McDonagh has responded. It is very hard to control the debate otherwise, which should be conducted through the Chair.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Sorry.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Quite often, teachers and principals are very passionate about their school, because they put so much of their lives into it and their teaching. I understand where they are coming from. However, we find principals feel as passionate, but then they retire and the school and children must be looked after. The patron has responsibility for what happens there. When, as happened, somebody came in to us and said the cheque of another person working in the school who went to the bank was stopped and that because of the new bank governance it would not be paid any more, the teacher had no responsibility for that, but the patron had. Therefore, the teachers cannot say they are going to keep this school open, unless they have the final responsibility for it. They do not.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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However, they have a view on what is best for the children they stand in front of, and they expressed that view strongly to me.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Yes, they do, but not for the overall governance of the school.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is it definite the De La Salle Order is pulling out and the decision is the school will close? Is that what Ms McDonagh is suggesting?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

De La Salle is pulling out.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is there a decision on the school? Does the order pulling out mean the school will close, unless some other decision is taken?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Yes, unless a philanthropist appears and has money to pay all these bills every year. The State is not going to pay them.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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If the repair of the school could be paid for, would the school remain open?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

The repair is only one issue.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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But it is the main issue and if it could be catered for, the school could stay open.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

No.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Deputy, it is very hard to chair a meeting where people interrupt all the time.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I am sorry.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The other consideration is that the school would have to be bought by or handed over to somebody. The school is not owned by the Department or the archdiocese.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

The size of the school must also be considered. The question must be asked whether a building that size is necessary for 278 pupils. That is the question that must be examined.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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An architect went to examine the Dominican campus. Did he cost what it would take to renovate it or realign it to take on the extra students that would come to it?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

No, we asked him to do a report on the accommodation.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Was that to see whether that solution would be possible?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Yes.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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That will be an enormous cost as well.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

We are lucky in that the Department will build what we need. My concern is that the opposition has gone on so long, it has stymied all of the plans and that by the time we get a written report to the Department and this is agreed, the situation will have gone on and on for some length of time. I am concerned for the children.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I understand that and accept what has been said in good faith. However, I wonder about the negotiation with the De La Salle Brothers and what happened before and after that. I understand an ageing congregation like that must have a way to care for its ageing population. Is Ms McDonagh saying this is all over bar the shouting and that we are behind the wall now? Is the decision made or have we any role? Is it useful for us to have this debate or to continue to question the situation or is it all over?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

I think it is all over, because I do not see how one can maintain two huge campuses like we have here for the number of pupils involved. We had a meeting last Friday week with the chairpersons and the principals and some of the deputy principals and talked about the issues. We discussed all the different options and somebody asked whether if we ended with a junior school and a senior school, we could have one on one campus and one on the other. We said that financially we could not possibly maintain the two campuses. As matters stand, the De La Salle Brothers maintain the grass and pitches and so on, but when they are gone, who will pay for that? The number of pupils is not big enough for two sites. That is the bottom line.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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We are not talking about that. We are talking about using the De La Salle property for the amalgamation. Is the debate on that all over, bar the shouting? Could that campus, with its green fields and its existing buildings be the one to be renovated or realigned? Is the debate on that all over, bar the shouting?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

If a philanthropist was to come in and buy the site from the brothers, would that work?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is there a possibility of a land swap? Has anybody considered whether the two sites could be swapped? Is that feasible?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

No, that was not considered at all. I suppose it is because all of the children start and do their first three years there. It is also perhaps because there are 700 pupils on the bigger campus.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I find it illogical that a proposal is going to be put to the Department to build facilities which already exist, just 100 or 200 yards away. There is also blame being apportioned here. The De La Salle Brothers are blaming the patron for the reorganisation and saying this is being forced upon them. Then, the patron is saying this is being forced on it because the brothers are pulling out. I do not know which is true. The letter of yesterday and previous correspondence do not seem to suggest the brothers want to walk away. They say that primary education in Ballyfermot is being reorganised by the patron because of declining numbers, not because the brothers are pulling out.

I can understand that Ms McDonagh is concerned about dealing with the situation for September next year. From her point of view, there should be an immediate discussion with the De La Salle Brothers and they should be asked, out of Christian charity, to transfer the lands and the buildings into the hands of the patrons. As a republican, my preference would be that they should hand them over to the State and the State should run the schools. However, I am realistic enough to understand that is not going to happen. In this instance, that is not the wish of the parents or the community. At the least, land that has been in the possession of the De La Salle Order for educational purposes should be transferred back to the patron or given to the patron in perpetuity to facilitate the educational development of the schools.

At the moment the pupil-teacher ratio is too high. We have discussed the matter in the committee and we all want it to be reduced. If it is reduced, then in five or ten years' time the Dominican campus will not be big enough. By that stage buildings only a few doors down the road will be sitting empty or perhaps knocked down or vandalised. Furthermore, since they are big buildings, they will cost money to maintain. They are dated and need work. They have copper roofs, which seem to attract people who do damage. It is a pity in this day and age that this is one of the consequences of the society we are living in. Often there are extra costs for schools that are rather open, like the De La Salle schools.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

There are two issues. The committee should be clear. The archdiocese is in no way blaming the De La Salle Brothers or suggesting that the order is responsible for this reorganisation. The reorganisation had to take place because of the falling numbers. As I stated earlier, the De La Salle school was applying for a change of status to try to get numbers in several years ago, because it was losing numbers.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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That was before it amalgamated. The De La Salle Order had three schools. In 1998 or whenever, they moved into two schools.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

That was in 1982.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Then they amalgamated two years ago into one school. That has already happened and it was to facilitate this. It does not need to disappear altogether.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

No, but the school was still losing numbers and it applied for a change of status so that it could take in other children and try to increase its numbers. The numbers were falling.

The schools already has DEIS band 1 status. Under the DEIS programme, junior classes have a ratio of 20:1 in a band 1 school and senior classes have a ratio of 24:1. Therefore, it will be several years before the ratio goes below 20:1 or 24:1.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Let us discuss any possible negotiations with the De La Salle Order. I presume money would have gone in from the State for the buildings, for example, for the autism units. Did the archdiocese invest money as well?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

No, not in a school belonging to a congregation. However, the De La Salle Order would have invested a great deal of money in it.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I imagine the school would have received State money. In a way, should that not be part of any possible negotiation? The fact is the order would have got State funds over the years.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Yes. If anything is sold there is always an arrangement whereby the State gets back a certain amount of money. A ratio is applied if it is sold.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is it possible, with the permission of the archdiocese, to get a copy of the letter from the De La Salle Order for our information? I am referring to the letter stating that it was no longer in a position to be a trustee. Can the deputation provide that to the committee? I understand the letter that went out yesterday to parents of pupils in the De La Salle school states clearly that the campus will no longer be used as a primary school. However, the letter does not state that the order is no longer in a position to be a trustee. For the purpose of clarification, can the committee get a copy of the letter for our records?

The question the Senator asked is really the question that all of us are asking, which is why there such a reluctance on behalf of the bishop to meet the De La Salle Order and discuss the possibility of amalgamating in that campus.

We are discussing education, because that is the role of the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection, but there is also the matter of public funds. Why should the taxpayer be asked to pay for a new school hall or the ancillary services that will of necessity be provided if the amalgamation goes ahead on the Dominican campus, when all of those facilities are already in place elsewhere? There is an issue around expenditure of public finances as well. We have a responsibility as legislators to ensure that any public money is spent wisely. It is a role for a different committee, but certainly I would raise questions with the Department of Education and Skills if it were to grant this amalgamation. It would have to grant it on the basis that it was providing a given amount of money. I believe we should at least consider the feasibility of providing that money to upgrade the De La Salle campus and invest in that campus because it is a bigger campus and it has the potential for expansion in future years. Those involved are confining themselves by amalgamating in the Dominican campus. They are restricting the possibility of expanding in future years. It does not make any sense. I have heard no rationale at the committee today for the amalgamation on a smaller site with fewer facilities. I have not heard anyone explain the rationale or merits behind it. This is not unique to this deputation. The Edmund Rice Schools Trust, which was before the committee last week, proposed something similar in Cork, that is, the amalgamation of a school with a bigger campus with sports facilities and physical education halls to a campus which does not even have a schoolyard.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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We are trying to take the matter forward. The deputation is hearing at first hand today the issues we have. Would Ms McDonagh be willing to take back to the archbishop a request from the committee to engage with the De La Salle Brothers to explore the options that may be open in future?

Ms Anne McDonagh:

Certainly. I will bring back anything the committee would like me to bring back.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Ms McDonagh could then let us know the reply.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Do we have to ask the Archbishop's permission to talk to the De La Salle Brothers?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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No.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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That was my question. I was wondering if we could visit the schools. Will the Chairman agree to that? Is there a possibility of our speaking to De La Salle Order to find out the position?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The committee has been in contact with all the various bodies, including the De La Salle Order. Let us be clear about that. Those are really matters for us to discuss in private.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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That is fair enough.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Ms McDonagh, you may wish to make some concluding remarks and address any outstanding questions. You have heard from the members who are representing their constituents in the community as well as people such as myself who have more general issues. It would be good if the concerns and issues raised were brought back and if they could be taken on board in any way possible. The committee would appreciate that. You may wish to reply to any outstanding questions and make your concluding remarks. We have had a good meeting but we should probably draw it to a close at this stage.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

I reiterate that these discussions started in Ballyfermot in 2008 with the chairpersons of the boards of management and the parish priest of the time, because they saw that the numbers were falling and that they needed to consider the education of the children of Ballyfermot for the future. In fact, when the forum was announced by the Minister for Education and Skills, the parish priest paused the discussions and sent a letter to me indicating that the discussions were paused. I took the view that was not a good idea and that it was a pity to pause them. I took the view that while the forum went on the discussions should have continued. That is what happened. Then, when the forum finished the discussions were started again.

Why was the decision made to relocate to what was formerly the Dominican site? That decision was made by the chairpersons at local level. It was probably the case that that was where the larger school numbers were. There were 700 pupils there. Rather than move 700 pupils down, they decided to move 278 up. We have secured the sports field for the new school, because that is critical. It will also be available to girls now, whereas it was only available to the boys before.

The thinking behind all of this from the patron's point of view is that the patron has a responsibility for the schools as patron of the schools.

With the various bills that are coming in, the situation is not sustainable into the future. Something has to be done about it and that is the reason we were looking at this with the schools. It is a matter for the people at local level to decide what has to be done about it, but something has to be done because one cannot maintain two huge campuses for the number of pupils in the area.

I have pointed out to the joint committee what we have been trying to do all over the archdiocese, and we would appreciate anything that members can do at local level, for example, if one sees schools at local level that need reorganisation or members can do anything to support us in our wok for education.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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If one takes the point made by Ms McDonagh that the body is not in a position to maintain two campuses, what is being proposed is that the owner of one campus, who is the patron of a school on the other campus, is in favour of closing that particular school and amalgamating it with the school on the campus he owns, which is similar to what was happening in Cork.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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As I see the situation, the problem is that one cannot maintain two campuses; one cannot keep paying for roofs. It is my opinion, as I live beside the mosque in Clonskeagh, that they picked the wrong campus for the solution, and that the negotiations for the right campus were not made in the timeline as suggested by my colleague. I think the two or three people who made the decision looked at it from the perspective of the numbers. It was a case of looking at 700 pupils as against the 200 pupils up the road, but it was the wrong decision. It would have been better to take the 700 pupils up to a place with playing fields and not to take the 200 pupils down into a smaller space, where it is possible at present to rent a field. That is how I see it. I understand the dilemma for the secretary and I appreciate all she has brought to the table today.

Ms Anne McDonagh:

That all hangs on whether they would fit. The De La Salle school goes from second class to sixth class, while all of the other schools go from junior infants to sixth class. It may have something to do with that. As I said when the Senator asked the question, I do not know whether it would fit in the De La Salle school or not.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We have had a very good discussion on the subject but it is not a matter that we will resolve today. I hope Ms McDonagh can take on board the issues that have been raised at this meeting. A great deal of information has become available to the members about the issue and it will help us realise the complexities of the issue when we are involved in these decisions locally. I thank Ms McDonagh for being so helpful. I also thank those present in the Gallery.

The committee will now go into private session.