David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of this part of the meeting is to have an engagement on the possible benefits of e-conveyancing. On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Mr. Frank Treacy, Mr. James O’Boyle and Mr. Peter McHugh from the Property Registration Authority and thank them for their attendance. Mr. John O'Sullivan is the chief executive-designate of the body to be established following the merger of the Property Registration Authority, Ordnance Survey Ireland and the Valuation Office. That is three into one and I thank him for that. We also are joined by Mr. Patrick Dorgan and Dr. Gabriel Brennan from the Law Society of Ireland, who are welcome and who I thank for their time, as well as by Mr. Dennis Barnhart of Teranet Incorporated. While the Irish Banking Federation also had wished to be in attendance, it has been unable to so do due to other commitments. However, it has provided a written submission for the information of the joint committee.

The format for this session is that I will invite witnesses to make a brief opening statement lasting five minutes, which will be followed by a question and answer session.

Before we begin I draw witnesses' attention to the position on privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that, under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We will now hear all about the exciting issue of e-conveyancing. I know the witnesses will make the matter easy for us to understand. I invite Mr. Treacy to make his opening statement.

Mr. Frank Treacy:

As interim chief executive of the Property Registration Authority, PRA, I am pleased to be given the opportunity to discuss the e-conveyancing agenda and the steps we have taken to further it. The PRA's primary statutory function is to manage and control the Registry of Deeds and the Land Registry. It is also a function of the authority to complete the Irish land register, which will lead to a single system of title registration supportive of Government policies on e-registration, e-conveyancing and the emerging Irish spatial data infrastructure.

The key contribution of the PRA to the economy is the provision of a register of title to land which guarantees security for those dealing with property. By international comparison, Ireland has a very extensive and well developed system of land registration with approximately 94% of the total land mass of the State and approximately 90% of the legal titles in Ireland now registered in the Land Registry. In the case of the residue of unregistered land, that is, land that is not registered in the Land Registry, title must be proved for every transaction. This can be a complicated and expensive process. The PRA has an active programme to close this gap and add to the approximately 2 million individual legal titles already registered and complete the land register.

From the delivery of the Law Reform Commission report on e-conveyancing in 2006, the PRA was conscious of the key role it would have to play and it set about developing the electronic services that would have to be provided to interact with and support the wider e-conveyancing process. To this end, the PRA has always adopted an open and collaborative approach in its development of the services. The terms e-conveyancing and e-registration are often confused and used interchangeably. While electronic registration or e-registration is a key element of the e-conveyancing system, it only concerns the registration process, including online access to the digital register and map. Electronic conveyancing envisages paperless transactions through most or all stages of the conveyancing process, from pre-sale to post-completion, including contracts, planning, property surveys and the dispersal of funds among all involved parties. The PRA has designed the e-registration process with a view to ensuring interoperability with the e-conveyancing process.

The PRA has also offered online access to the Land Registry since 1999 and it has successfully implemented a number of major technology projects. E-discharges was the first e-registration service offered by the PRA. The existing process was redesigned to allow lenders to apply securely for the cancellation of a charge or mortgage on an electronic basis without the need to lodge any paper documents. This is done almost instantaneously. All development was undertaken in-house by PRA staff and the system was launched in 2009. All of the major lenders and a number of local authorities use the system to cancel their housing loans and almost 60% of all discharges are now processed through the e-discharges system. E-charging orders were developed as a collaborative process between the PRA, the Department of Health and the HSE to facilitate the legislation which underpins the nursing home support scheme, which is known as the fair deal scheme, to provide for the lodgement of electronic charging orders by the HSE. The development of the system was undertaken in-house and built on the existing e-discharges platform.

The success of e-discharges and e-charging orders has given the PRA the momentum to proceed to develop further e-registration services. In keeping with the collaborative approach adopted throughout this project, which includes all stakeholders having representation on the project board, the PRA undertook a substantial exercise in stakeholder engagement. Phase 2 of e-registration began with a number of workshops with members of the legal profession and the lending community. The scope of the project was agreed by all parties through their representation on the project board and was confined to the elements pertaining to registration. It did not include elements of conveyancing outside of the registration process. The system, which was launched late in 2013, allows users to draft and circulate deeds of transfer of registered property in a secure electronic environment. The drafting process allows for interaction with the land register, including the digital map, and the system ensures that the correct form of transfer is produced, thereby reducing opportunities for error. Other features include the facility to pay fees by variable direct debit and to correspond electronically with the PRA. The facility to draft deeds of charge will be available shortly and a facility to electronically apply to protect priority - e-priority - entry on the register will follow. A working group comprising equal representation from the PRA, the Law Society and the Irish Banking Federation is currently being formed to design the process for these new services. Also, for the first time, the PRA has made available the schemas which will allow designers of practice manager systems to develop their systems to interface with those of the PRA. In tandem with this, the PRA has engaged actively with other public sector bodies which hold relevant information, including the Revenue Commissioners, the Courts Service and the Companies Registration Office, to identify methods of improving interaction between these bodies.

In the recently published Construction 2020 policy paper for the construction sector, the Government highlighted the critical role of e-conveyancing in providing a modern, efficient, cost-effective and secure system to support transactions in the property market. The PRA is fully supportive of the further development of e-conveyancing while also acknowledging the difficult challenges that delivering end-to-end conveyancing presents. In support of Government policy and as the statutory body with responsibility for property registration, the PRA will actively contribute to the review and will continue, in consultation with other stakeholders, to facilitate e-conveyancing through the ongoing development and further roll-out of e-registration services.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The PRA is doing a considerable amount of work. I invite Mr. John O'Sullivan to make his opening remarks.

Mr. John O'Sullivan:

I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to make my opening remarks and to take part in the discussions on e-conveyancing. I should commence by clarifying that in my current role as Commissioner of Valuation, I do not have any direct involvement in e-conveyancing. However, during a previous stage of my career, between 2003 and 2006, I was a member of a working group established by the Law Reform Commission which examined and reported on e-conveyancing. The committee will be aware that the Government is proceeding with a merger of the Property Registration Authority, Ordnance Survey Ireland and the Valuation Office. The Minister for Justice and Equality, who will be the line Minister, has recently approved Tailte Éireann as the name of the new organisation. As chief executive-designate of that new organisation, I am keenly interested in the e-conveyancing project and look forward to assisting the committee in its consideration of it.

It is envisaged that Tailte Éireann will, when established, be responsible for providing the authoritative national property registration system, the national mapping and surveying infrastructure and State property valuation service. As such, it will be the primary source of property information and location based data in the State and will assume a lead role in the development and delivery of land information services. All of this is, of course, subject to the passage of the establishing legislation through the Oireachtas in due course. I have provided in the appendix to my submission additional briefing material on the prospective future role, vision and mission of the new organisation.

The case for implementing a national system of electronic conveyancing has been well articulated on a number of occasions, most notably in the Law Reform Commission’s report on e-conveyancing, Modelling of the Irish Conveyancing System, published in 2006 and in a Law Society task force document, eConveyancing: Back to Basic Principles, published in March 2008. There are also several reports and studies of the subject in the international domain and there is a general consensus that the introduction of such a system is worthwhile. E-conveyancing has also been considered recently in the Government’s Construction 2020: a Strategy for a Renewed Construction Sector, which was adopted by a Government decision of 16 May 2014. I have included an extract of the relevant part of the Construction 2020 report as an appendix to my submission.

The report concludes that “a system of eConveyancing which harnesses modern technology to assist in the timely transfer of property ownership would provide a more modern, efficient, cost effective and secure system to support transactions in the property market in the future”.

It is appropriate to acknowledge the progress that has been achieved already and the committee will hear this afternoon of the relevant work undertaken by the Property Registration Authority, the Law Society and others. Construction 2020 acknowledges this progress but correctly recognises that “moving to a full eConveyancing system will require a number of further elements over and above existing and planned developments to be put in place”. It identifies, in particular, the need to provide for the secure transmission of communications, the management and disbursement of funds between parties and the creation and management of digital signatures. The report goes on to recognise that future progress “will require representatives of the legal profession, the banking sector and the relevant statutory agencies to work together closely, and could build on work already completed on this issue under the aegis of the Law Society”.

I welcome the commitment to e-conveyancing in Construction 2020 and I believe that this complements the mission of Tailte Éireann and the vision which has been articulated for the new organisation. Location-based, or geo-spatial information as it is sometimes called, is central to the business of both Government and the private sector. One of the roles envisaged for Tailte is in developing and leading the implementation of a national spatial data infrastructure, NSDI. This will result in Tailte co-ordinating the use of such information across Government and establishing and managing the standards behind such information. In line with the Public Service Reform Plan 2014-2016, this will facilitate and support evidence-based decision making across the relevant Government sectors and beyond. The development and implementation of a national spatial data infrastructure by Tailte Éireann is potentially a very significant and welcome development for e-conveyancing. However, as with other possible technical approaches and potential solutions for e-conveyancing, this is something which could be explored as part of the review envisaged in Construction 2020.

While the case for e-conveyancing is very attractive, there are also substantial risks which must be quantified and managed. Though the future strategy for Tailte Éireann has not yet been developed, it is apparent from the preliminary work conducted to date in this regard, and outlined in the appendices, that the new organisation will be keen to play a central role in the future of e-conveyancing and will do so in partnership with its key public and private sector stakeholders.

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

The Law Society is very glad to have been asked to assist the committee in its review of the progress of the implementation of e-conveyancing. I am chair of the Law Society's e-conveyancing task force established as a response to Law Reform Commission's report in 2006, which recommended the introduction of a system of e-conveyancing. This meeting today is timely, coming as it does on the publication of the Government’s 2020 construction strategy, which looks for the implementation of e-conveyancing. I am accompanied by my colleague, Dr. Gabriel Brennan, author of a thesis entitled An exploration of the impact of e-conveyancing upon management of risk in conveyancing transactions, who has led the Law Society’s research in this field. I am pleased to acknowledge the presence of Teranet, and various State agencies with whom we have had a very good and close working relationship over months and years. The absence of the Irish Banking Federation is regrettable, as it is a key player in this process, although it has sent a submission.

Dr. Gabriel Brennan:

As members know, conveyancing is the process of buying and selling title to land. This old, traditional, cumbersome and paper-based process does not serve Ireland or its citizens well. It is costly, inefficient and in urgent need of reform. As the committee has heard, e-conveyancing is a secure, paperless, electronic, end-to-end, pre-sale to post-completion conveyancing process. It moves the procedures to electronic delivery via information exchange between key stakeholders, initially solicitors, lenders and the Land Registry. Later releases would include other stakeholders, for example local authorities and planning authorities.

When introduced, e-conveyancing can deliver a property transfer process that will be a world leader in efficiency, security and cost effectiveness. It has the capacity to streamline and modernise property transactions, delivering real and substantial benefits to a range of stakeholders including Government and consumers. Benefits to consumers can include reduced conveyancing transaction time, potentially of five working days; reduced costs due to a leaner and quicker system; reduced fraud due to built-in security checks with State agencies; and reduced errors and delays due to all stakeholders being on the one platform. It can also improve the transparency of the process with greater transaction traceability; reduce risk due to reduced gaps in the process and secure transfer of funds; meet the demand for electronic service delivery with speed and efficiency; and increase consumer confidence in the process with modernisation, simplification and standardisation.

These and other benefits are outlined in the briefing material the members received. My colleague and I would be happy to provide further detail on these aspects or other benefits during questioning. These benefits can be achieved without imposing any additional cost on the Exchequer as the Law Society has identified Teranet as a funding partner which will work in collaboration with all stakeholders. Teranet has a proven track record in the delivery of electronic property services and is willing to share its knowledge, expertise and intellectual capital.

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

I will deal with the policy mandate which exists for e-conveyancing. As has been referred to, e-conveyancing was recommended by the Law Reform Commission in 2006 and endorsed by the Government in the recent 2020 construction strategy, which acknowledged the work done to date on this project under the aegis of the Law Society. The European Commission in its 2014 Assessment of the National Reform and Stability Programme for Ireland urged e-conveyancing to be progressed and identified it as an important factor in improving Ireland’s business environment. The project aligns with and facilitates implementation of the Public Sector Reform Plan, eGovernment strategy 2012–2015, which will enhance Ireland’s reputation as a leader in e-Government and e-commerce, improve our international ranking in property benchmarks, contribute to the green agenda and deliver efficiencies in revenue collection and electronic funds transfer thereby increasing Ireland’s competitiveness.

The transformation to e-conveyancing also fits with the streamlining of Government land administration services through the merger of Ordnance Survey Ireland, the Valuation Office and Property Registration Authority into Tailte Éireann. The Department of Justice and Equality is the lead Government Department for this initiative. While the Property Registration Authority has made great strides in advancing the electronic registration element of the process, and these initiatives have been actively supported by the Law Society and its members, much remains to be done to achieve full e-conveyancing.

The support across the board for this project is not surprising as it is a simple, innovative and effective approach to modernisation that is being achieved in other common law jurisdictions such as Australia, Scotland and Canada, which have realised the strategic benefits. These include the opportunity for inward investment and benefits for all owners and investors in the property sector. Implementation is achievable only if the funding and mortgaging aspect of the conveyancing transaction is included. The Law Society would like to see the lenders commit fully to the implementation of this modernisation program and work with the Law Society, the Property Registration Authority, Tailte Éireann and all the other players to make e-conveyancing a reality for the benefit of Irish consumers in recognition of the fact that this project is one of critical national importance and has core Government and cross-party support. We shall be pleased to assist the committee in its deliberations.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Barnhart has travelled from Canada to be here.

Mr. Dennis Barnhart:

I have. I arrived yesterday.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Thank you for being here. We appreciate the time you have taken and look forward to your presentation.

Mr. Dennis Barnhart:

My pleasure. Good afternoon. It is a pleasure to be here and meet the Chairman and members. I am the chief strategy and integration officer for Teranet, an international leader and pioneer in electronic registration systems, e-conveyancing and eCommerce. I have led the Ireland e-conveyancing project on behalf of the company since the fall of 2011. Teranet is based in Ontario, Canada and has 20 years of experience in modernising and managing land registration systems and e-conveyancing solutions. We have modernised and digitised approximately 5.9 million land records, or land titles, and have digitised 90 million documents and approximately 500 million pages of information in the process. Teranet developed, owns and operates Ontario’s electronic land registration system, ELRS, and facilitates the delivery of electronic conveyancing and land registration services on behalf of the province.

Teranet built the world’s first electronic land registration system with full digital submission, collaboration and validation capabilities. We are now into our second large scale re-engineering and it remains one of the world’s most sophisticated, efficient and modern systems. We have 475 knowledge workers who facilitate that process on behalf of the government. Teranet offers robust features and access options to consumers and customers in the real estate, legal and financial industries as well as governments and utility companies, in addition to the collection and disbursement of appropriate fees to the government. Our products include the capability to provide electronic mortgage instruction and the electronic transfer of mortgage funds in a secure real time environment, which is a critical aspect of e-conveyancing.

Teranet has successfully leveraged its partnership with the government, lenders and legal community to deliver end-to-end e-conveyancing solutions across Canada, while maintaining and enabling statutory obligations and adhering to existing government policies and business rules. Teranet’s conveyancer solution is the dominant legal work flow solution in Canada. It is in a competitive environment. We probably process 65% of all property transactions through that software. Demonstrating the province’s confidence in Teranet, the government of Ontario, Canada’s largest province, extended its exclusive relationship with the company by 50 years in 2010. The ability to negotiate a contract to protect the government's interest for 50 years was significant given issues such as fee certainty, data protection, privacy and ownership of the system. We have a concession and we negotiated that at the end of 50 years, the government can take back the system if it so desires and we have a process in place to deal with that.

In 2012, the province of Manitoba signed terms for an exclusive 30-year licence to operate the end-to-end property registry agency and modernise its land registration system and processes. Teranet is a wholly owned investment of the Ontario Municipal Employee Retirement System, OMERS, through Borealis Infrastructure. What is nice about our organisation is the profits go to public service pensioners and, as such, Borealis Infrastructure has a long-term, low risk investment profile for opportunities. OMERS is one of Canada’s leading pension funds with than $55 billion in assets. Borealis Infrastructure has proven experience and a sound reputation as an effective partner with a patient, long-term, low risk investment model.

The combination of Teranet’s intellectual capital and operational expertise with Borealis Infrastructure’s financial capital and infrastructure investment-financing expertise creates a unique value proposition for Ireland as Teranet seeks to expand internationally. Teranet, through a long-term partnership with the Law Society and in co-operation with Revenue, the PRA, and lenders, seeks to significantly improve the efficiency, transparency, speed, predictability and cost of the property transfer system in Ireland through the automation of the routine aspects of the conveyancing process and the use of an electronic conveyancing hub by all solicitors and lenders. A direct link to the PRA is envisioned to secure virtually real time registration and also to Revenue to facilitate payment of transfer taxes and property taxes. On transaction close, the system will ensure all requirements of the conveyance have been satisfied and all relevant parties’ obligations have been met. Funds will flow electronically on the day of close to ensure all disbursements have been completed and confirmed.

Teranet proposes to fund the design and build, and to own and operate the e-conveyancing system and will generate revenue through value-added transaction fees collected by solicitors on behalf of their clients. Interfacing with the hub will bring significant benefits for all stakeholders, including increased efficiencies, reduced costs, reduced risk and improved reporting capacity on conveyancing transactions. We see contracts being developed to ensure everyone's interests are protected through this process.

We have invested more than €300,000 over the past 36 months to complete a preliminary assessment and due diligence study, working in formal partnership with the Law Society and with the support and involvement of the Irish Banking Federation, IBF, the PRA and BearingPoint Ireland to assess the feasibility of an electronic conveyancing system for the Republic of Ireland. Through an extensive stakeholder consultation process, we collectively have confirmed that e-conveyancing is an achievable goal with significant benefits for all stakeholders. It is supporting the Government’s e-business initiatives and is a sustainable business model. Solicitor and lender consultation has reinforced the acceptance of the need for change, a recognition of the productivity and efficiency gains and a better conveyancing experience for citizens and stakeholders.

We have also engaged local legal counsel to understand the competition, data protection, intellectual property, privacy and consumer protection legislation and regulations and we are confident that the structure of our model and agreements that would be negotiated would satisfy and-or exceed all Government and stakeholder interests. Under the envisioned model, Teranet Ireland - we would set up an organisation in Ireland - is committed to expend approximately €500,000 to establish a corporate entity in Ireland to manage the development, roll-out and operations of the e-conveyancing system and to invest €6 million to design and build a world class bespoke end-to-end conveyancing system with our strategic partner, BearingPoint Ireland. We will leverage our experience, intellectual property, capabilities and systems that we have developed in Canada. However, the service will be built in Ireland and serve the specific needs of the Irish e-conveyancing community. Initially, we will create ten to 12 full-time positions in Ireland and utilise an Irish IT firm to host and support the e-conveyancing system in Ireland, and we will make a direct contribution to the economy of approximately €50 million in operational expenditures over the life of the long-term contract.

We look forward to working in close co-operation with all stakeholders and State agencies to design, build and implement an e-conveyancing solution which has robust governance and oversight arrangements in place to protect the interests of all parties, including consumers. We are confident that the combination of our reputation and success in working with government agencies, solicitors, lenders and other partners will enable us to collaboratively facilitate the reformation of the e-conveyancing processes in Ireland for the benefit of citizens today and in the future. I am happy to answer any questions members may have.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That was an interesting presentation. This is an important project with huge potential benefit to the economy, the State and stakeholders, yet it probably will not attract headlines. However, it is vitally important. Has a cost-benefit analysis been carried out on the project?

Mr. John O'Sullivan:

Quite a lot of analysis was done in the Law Reform Commission report, which was published in 2006, but there was not a full blown cost-benefit analysis. It is fair to say there has not been a national e-conveyancing end-to-end project in place. The committee has heard what the PRA has been doing and the advances the Law Society in conjunction with its partners has made. There has not been a full blown end-to-end cost-benefit analysis but a review is required to be done under the Construction 2020 programme. There would be an opportunity at that stage to look at what we are talking about.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I assume the benefits would be substantial.

Mr. John O'Sullivan:

Yes, there is agreement across the board as to what are the main benefits of e-conveyancing. Both nationally and internationally, there is a broad consensus about that.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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I welcome Mr. Barnhart and his colleagues. As the Chairman said, this may not capture the imagination of too many people but it is vital for our future to go the e-conveyancing route. The project is included in Construction 2020.

I have a number of questions for Mr. Dorgan and Dr. Brennan. Will they outline the manner in which this proposal could enhance society for individuals engaging in a property sale or purchase? For example, we have read shocking stories in the newspapers about a small number of rogue solicitors who stole money from clients for their own purposes. Does Mr. Dorgan envisage that this system will represent a safeguard against such fraud?

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

It is a matter of public record that any client of a solicitor who loses money due to inappropriate behaviour of a solicitor is fully covered by the Law Society's compensation fund, which far exceeds in terms of amount and proactivity any other compensation fund of any other financial intermediary in the State.

One of the attractive features of this project from our point of view is that the capacity for fraudulent activity referred to is removed because one of the features of the system is that all the funds will be transferred electronically and instantaneously through the proposed hub. There will, therefore, be no facility for anybody to sit on or divert clients' money. One of the major drivers of this project is that all the funds will travel to all the people entitled to them. The old loan will be paid off, the new loan will be drawn down, the buyer will see his or her money go to the seller, the stamp duty and registry fees will be paid and this will be done simultaneously and seamlessly through the electronic hub.

We feel the opportunity for fraud is virtually removed.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Dorgan for his reply, and I take his point about nobody ever being out of pocket, but it does cause upset and they must go through a process to get the money back. Something like that should never happen. Do the witnesses feel it will result in lower property transaction and legal fees for people buying and selling property if it is done online and people do not go from one place to another? The Chairman mentioned the cost benefit. There should be a cost benefit to the client.

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

We feel there will be savings in a number of areas not only with regard to legal fees. There is a competitive environment between solicitors as conveyancing is a very competitive business. It is interesting that many of the big Dublin firms do not bother with residential conveyancing except for their very expensive clients because they cannot make money at it. There is vigorous price competition in the market and if the process is made easier and quicker the facility for solicitors' fees may well be reduced. More significantly, in any conveyancing transaction there are a number of outlays such as law searchers' fees, commissioner for oaths' fees and other such matters which typically cost €200 or €300 per transaction. These will be eliminated under the new system so there will be immediate benefits for the consumer.

There may also be more indirect, but nevertheless tangible, benefits. In our model we could reduce the transaction time from two or three months as it is at present to four or five days. Typical residential buyers of property are renting and if they can get into their new home in one month rather than six months it will save them several thousand euro in rent. Legal fees will probably decrease further. There is no doubt that outlays associated with conveyancing transactions will be eliminated and more intangible savings will doubtless be made by consumers.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Dorgan for his reply because it is very good news for consumers and should be highlighted. I have a question with regard to the Irish Banking Federation which I regret it has not sent any delegates to appear before the committee although it sent in a submission. In their submissions Mr. Treacy and Mr. O'Sullivan mentioned that a working group comprising equal representation from the Property Registration Authority, the Law Society and the Irish Banking Federation is being formed to design the process for these new services. I did a little research on this issue because I knew it was coming up. I have a concern, which I would have put to the Irish Banking Federation had it come us. Do the witnesses feel the Irish Banking Federation is as on board as everybody else with regard to e-conveyancing? If it is not on the same line as everybody else it will cause problems because the banks are the lenders and are pivotal to it working. The vibes I am getting are that the banks are not as much on board as the other agencies. Perhaps all of the witnesses would like to comment on this.

Mr. Frank Treacy:

I can only speak with regard to e-registration and they have been totally on board with us because the process involved designing new forms. There was never any question of the banks funding us in any way and there is no capital investment. We have had no issue and full co-operation on everything we have needed to do. That is a different situation to e-conveyancing.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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I understand Mr. Treacy is speaking about e-registration but taking it a step forward to e-conveyancing-----

Mr. Frank Treacy:

I would have to get my colleagues to answer that.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We are clarifying the position and not criticising an entity. The Irish Banking Federation stated in its submission that it supports e-conveyancing, which it recognises can deliver strategic, societal and economic benefits.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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I am sure it is supportive and no criticism is meant, but at the same time there is a feeling, and I do not say from where it is coming, that it may not be as on board. I am sorry it is not here to be able to address the issue.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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It was not able to be here but in its submission it states it is supportive.

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

If I am honest, the least enthusiastic supporter of e-conveyancing has been the banking sector despite the fact we see it as being a major beneficiary of the system. Frankly, we do not understand its approach. On the one hand it states it is positive in its support, but by its actions over a period of time it has been indifferent and hostile. It has raised conflicting and sometimes contradictory positions with us, including in its most recent submission.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I must call a halt there.

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

We understand the banks have other issues to address, but we feel that at this stage they should take a public interest position on this.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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They may be in a position to come before the committee at a later date and engage with us on the concerns they may have.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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On a point of order, surely it is legitimate for us, without criticising any individual, to speculate or inquire as to whether, notwithstanding what is said in the submissions, there is hostility among the banks. I intend to ask our guests what they feel the source of any banking reservations are.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I must intervene again. Senator Mullen was not here at the beginning and I will read out again what I stated. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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That is a different issue. There is no question of criticising any person. This is entirely about analysing where the banks are.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I will let the Senator respond and I ask him not to speak across me if he does not mind.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am just responding.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I am not quite finished. I will invite the Senator to comment again in a moment.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Nílimid ar scoil.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Witnesses are also directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. This is quite clear and is the legal advice of the parliamentary counsel and others. I want to draw people's attention to this and ask them to be very careful.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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The Chairman's caution is very well advised but it is not in any way connected to the questions which have been asked.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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With respect I must chair the meeting as I see fit, and this is the interpretation I am putting on it with the advice I have been given over the years. Members may have their own views but I must insist on this.

Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
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On this point, I completely agree with the legal advice but all I was trying to do was tease out the matter with the witnesses before us. If the Irish Banking Federation were here I could have asked its members directly. No criticism was meant and we are just having a conversation.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We have teased it out so let us move on.

Dr. Gabriel Brennan:

To tie up some of the issues raised by Deputy Ferris on the benefits to the consumer, some major benefits to the consumer are with regard to the timely transfer of funds. To get these benefits in the initial phase it is critical that our colleagues in the lending community are on board with the project. The Law Society has done a cost-benefit analysis for individual solicitors and also analysed what the benefits to clients would be. The funds and closing are key aspects.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The Irish Banking Federation points to a number of reservations it has in its submission, which I am sure can be overcome and dealt with.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I thank the Law Society, the Property Registration Authority-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Will everybody please check their mobile phones as a phone is causing a problem? I can hear it buzzing. Turn off all mobile phones now or leave the room.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I thank all the witnesses for their presentations. By how much will e-conveyancing reduce legal fees for a prospective home purchaser? Will e-conveyancing reduce the workload of legal practitioners so they can make savings which they can pass on to their clients?

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

The Law Society as a body has no involvement in setting or maintaining fees and this is well known. From my personal experience I can confirm the competition for conveyancing work is intense.

There is a high level of consumer awareness about the elasticity of solicitors' fees. I assure the committee that the first question that any practising solicitor is asked when a house is being bought is not whether he or she is any good at the job, knows what he or she is doing, has many satisfied clients, has insurance or is bonded, but how much the service will cost. The society cannot claim it will reduce solicitors' fees, as that would be disingenuous. However, my next point may answer the second part of the question. It follows as night the day that, if the process is made simpler, easier, quicker and less risky, this will flow to the bottom line from the consumer's point of view.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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My third question follows on from Mr. Dorgan's point that some people do not ask legal practitioners about how good they are. They just want to know how much the service will cost. I represent Priory Hall, a new development built approximately six or seven years ago. More than 100 people purchased its apartments. Their solicitors handled the conveyancing-----

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Careful, now.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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-----despite the fact that the compliance certificates were not in order and, in some respects, the development was not fully compliant with the planning permissions. Some would claim that the solicitors who handled the conveyancing for those who bought the apartments should have seen these problems. I understand that there are different practices in different parts of the country but light touch regulation applied to the legal profession during the boom just as much as it did to anyone else.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The question seems to be whether the new system will ensure that such issues will not arise again. Is there anything built into the new conveyancing system to ensure they are picked up electronically?

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

One of the many e-Government initiatives revolves around building regulations and their implementation. This largely arises from Priory Hall and similar developments. One of the advantages of the e-conveyancing system is that it proposes to tap straight into statutory compliance mechanisms. Under the new building regulations, the solicitor would be able to see online the status, verification and compliance details of any building. This is another major advantage and has been taken in tandem with Government initiatives and policies.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. I have a question for the gentleman from Tailte Éireann, who referred to the perceived risks in the system. Will he expand on his thinking in that regard?

Mr. John O'Sullivan:

I thank the Deputy for her question. It is a complex project and, as one would expect with any complex project, there are associated risks. I am not suggesting that they cannot be mitigated or managed. With proper project management, planning and appropriate resources, they can be. There is a certain level of expenditure involved and some technical risks, but these can be managed. One can learn from international examples how to mitigate risks. One of the main requisites is to ensure buy-in and participation by all key stakeholders.

These are the main risks. During the forthcoming review, which is set out as an action item under Construction 2020, there will be an opportunity to get to the bottom of these risks and ensure appropriate strategies are in place to manage them and take the project forward.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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My next question is to Mr. Barnhart of Teranet. His company owns Ontario's electronic land registration system, ELRS.

Mr. Dennis Barnhart:

Correct.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It will also own the system in Ireland.

Mr. Dennis Barnhart:

That is the proposal.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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What of the information within the system?

Mr. Dennis Barnhart:

In our model in Ontario and what is proposed for Ireland, we do not own the data. Rather, they are owned by, for example, the Government in Ontario. There are strict rules on how those data are used. We have an approval process and governance structures in place to ensure the data are used only for purposes of which the Government approves. Initially, we purchased the system from the Government and modernised it. As part of the contract, though, if we fail to meet performance standards, the Government can take the system back. If the Government decides that it wants the system back at the end of the 50-year term, it has the right to take it. In any jurisdiction in which we operate, we would be willing to do something similar if it was important for such a provision to form part of the contract.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Has Teranet experienced any difficulty with cyber attacks? When anything moves to an electronic system, it can be vulnerable. What safeguards does Teranet have in place? Since there is a great deal of sensitive information involved, people would need to be confident.

Mr. Dennis Barnhart:

We understand that. Our reputation, including on behalf of the Government, is most important to us. We have never had a known security breach. We have stringent and leading edge processes, systems and monitoring devices in place to ensure it will not happen. If it does happen, we know that the Government will look to us and may question our ability. However, it has never happened and we do not foresee it happening, given our investment in security.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Barnhart.

Mr. Frank Treacy:

I might clarify a point. I do not believe Mr. Barnhart meant to infer it, but Teranet would not own the Land Registry or the land registration system. Rather, it would feed into that system and use our information. To date, all developments in the registry have been done in-house and without outside assistance. This is how we view the situation continuing for the time being. However, we will co-operate fully in any e-conveyancing project.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I apologise for arriving a little late. The witnesses made a strong case for the benefits to consumers and all stakeholders, including Government, of e-conveyancing. A great deal of work has been done and we have heard about buy-in, albeit less buy-in on the part of some parties. What is the next step to further the project? From some of the presentations and documentation, it is not anticipated that major legislative changes will be required, but am I right in believing that it will require a Government decision?

My next question follows Deputy Corcoran Kennedy's point. I presume that Teranet has made an arrangement or is working with the Law Society. If this project were to proceed, would Teranet's contract not be with the Government or the PRA? I am not clear on the structure that would need to be in place for this to be rolled out. If it is a Government structure, lenders and the banking federation, whatever their reservations, would simply have to sign up. Could this proceed in the absence of a statutory framework or regulatory decision?

Mr. John O'Sullivan:

I thank the Senator for her question. I will endeavour to answer it. I presume my colleagues from the Law Society will also put their point of view across.

The key recent initiative has been a certain commitment in Construction 2020, namely, measure No. 73, which mandates the various parties to take the process to the next stage. It reads: "In collaboration with key stakeholders (the legal profession and the banking sector) we [the Government] will review and report on the steps required to deliver a system of eConveyancing in Ireland, including the resource implications and timeframes for delivery." The Government stakeholders will include the Department of Justice and Equality, which I believe will be the lead Department as the responsible body, the PRA and other relevant Departments and stakeholders, for example, the Departments of Finance and the Environment, Community and Local Government and local authorities. The review and the report that will follow from it comprise the key step in addressing the matters that the Senator raised. Therefore, there is a mandate to go to the next stage and examine the situation.

There will be several key considerations. The Senator adverted to some of them.

For example, in terms of legislative implications certain provisions of the Electronic Commerce Act 2000 would have to be implemented. In regard to whether participation would be voluntary or mandatory and so on, issues such as competition, procurement and so on will be looked at as part of the review. I would envisage that the Department of Justice and Equality will lead that review, which appears to be what is mandated under Construction 2020.

Mr. Dennis Barnhart:

From our perspective, it was envisaged initially that the relationship would be with the Law Society rather than Government. If the decision is taken that it needs to be with Government, we would not be opposed to that as we recognise the need to have on board the relevant Departments, the Revenue Commissioners, the local authorities and Property Registration Authority Ireland. Part of our feasibility analysis was to examine whether the ability to connect with these Departments and agencies from an electronic perspective exists. The steering committee was structured in a manner which provided for involvement of these groups such that as we worked through the assessment of the opportunity, we involved Government stakeholders. We had numerous consultations with various members of Government. We felt that the regulatory and legislative structure would enable this to happen. We did not initially see this as a joint Teranet-Government-type arrangement. However, if required to be so, we will consider that.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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It is of interest to us as an Oireachtas committee. Most of the time people or entities that come to us are looking for changes in the law. What is required in this case is more a facilitative than a prescriptive environment.

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

Senator Bacik has hit the nail on the head. Perhaps for the assistance of the committee I should explain what e-conveyancing is and is not. In case the impression was created that e-conveyancing will be a giant new behemoth with its foot on the neck of the consumer, it will be nothing of the sort. As everybody will be aware, what currently happens is that solicitors, through a conveyancing transaction, interact principally with each other but also with banks, auctioneers and, in particular, the PRA and the Revenue Commissioners. Nothing in that regard will change, except that the process will be electronified. As stated by some speakers, there is already in effect compulsory electronic interface in the case of the PRA and the Revenue Commissioners in that solicitors can no longer pay stamp duty for their clients by way of cheque and must do so online. This change has been embraced by the profession. Also, there has been astonishing progress made by the PRA in the implementation of its own electronification regime, which we acknowledge. As also stated earlier, a number of these processes are already carried out electronically. All that this process will be is an extension of that in order that solicitors will engage with each other electronically and, in particular, engage electronically with the banks in order that funds transfer electronically such that cheques, bank drafts, pieces of paper, cash and so on are not flying around the place in an indiscriminate and uncontrolled manner. That is all this system is about.

When this system was first considered, the thinking was that a giant beast would be created. We quickly found that was not going to work. We then began searching worldwide for providers in this area and found Teranet Inc., which appeared to us to be world leaders in this type of business. Having investigated the Irish regulatory, political and economic environments and every other environment involved, Teranet reached the decision that it could make a business case to partner with the Law Society in electronifying the existing process. That is all it is. As I said, everybody is on board, with perhaps one exception. In terms of what we are looking for, there is a clear political consensus and a policy statement that this is a good way to go but the words Hamlet and the Prince come to mind.

Ivana Bacik (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Dorgan for his very helpful clarification that what is proposed is not in fact a major change but a change in process rather than substance.

I have one follow-up question, if I may. Given that contracts require to be witnessed in writing, which is currently a major part of conveyancing transactions, how will this issue be addressed?

Dr. Gabriel Brennan:

I will clarify that. It is perhaps linked to the earlier point in regard to legislative change to the Electronic Commerce Act. The wording of section 10 of that Act is a little odd in that it appears to allow electronic contracts but not electronic deeds. For the PRA to implement e-registration, a statutory instrument to remove that would be required. That is the only immediate legislative change we have identified. Obviously, this process requires electronic signatures. A number of other jurisdictions have introduced an advanced electronic signature provision under which a solicitor receives authority from the client to engage on his or her behalf with the hub or electronic environment. We initially proposed to go that route on the basis that it was the route chosen by other jurisdictions. However, when we consulted solicitors on the matter, they were concerned about the potential risk implications of that and felt we should look to a process whereby clients would have their own electronic signature but would still have to go the solicitors office to apply that signature. We are now looking at the provision of a one-time only electronic signature which would cease following a particular transaction. Because people often only purchase a property once in their lifetime, an advanced electronic signature is only required once. This perhaps fits into the broader e-Government agenda. There may be need for engagement between the State agencies and Government on how we could implement this so that it would fit into other proposals, for example, e-litigation, e-Courts Service and so on. There is a broader agenda that needs to be looked at. As I said earlier, we have identified a need for only one statutory instrument at this point.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I welcome the delegates and thank them for their interesting presentations. My question follows on from a question asked earlier by Senator Bacik, which I thought was a very relevant question. I do not ask this question in any hostile sense but in order to deepen our understanding of this issue. I understand that at this point in time Teranet's client is the Law Society. If the Government and all other interested parties move on this, and all those present have made a good case for the importance of e-conveyancing to our economy and so on, could procurement issues arise? I understand Teranet Inc. is a brand leader in this area but that there are others in this business. Is it a matter for the Law Society to decide with whom it will deal in the future? If this involves a degree of Government-led facilitation, could or should we be hearing from other possible providers?

Dr. Gabriel Brennan:

As outlined by Mr. Barnhart, our initial thought was that the Law Society would not of itself have the type of funds to develop this type of system. During recent years we have met many providers of electronic services. The Law Reform Commission report was published in 2006 and we subsequently published our own vision in 2008. We sought out and met many providers and many others came knocking on our door declaring their interest. We did not find any other provider with the reputation, stature, experience and funds of Teranet Inc.

In terms of public procurement, the initial proposal was that Teranet Inc. and the Law Society would implement this system and only feed into the Land Registry in terms of electronic documentation. It was to be a collaborative arrangement between the Law Society, Teranet Inc., the lenders and the State, but this would be only one channel towards registration. From that perspective, no public procurement issues presented. Obviously, if the initial model changes and Government considers taking a more direct implementation approach to this, that perspective would change.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Would it not be the case that if the State was picking up the tab to any extent, procurement issues would arise?

Dr. Gabriel Brennan:

There is no funding required. E-registration is already a mandate of the PRA and will be implemented regardless, excluding electronic signature provision. The system is hindered in that respect. We are hoping to provide the electronic signature to the solicitor, which if it meets the standards of the PRA will meet the standards of other State agencies, thus facilitating other types of interactions.

No funding is required and the hub would allow for quicker payment of Land Registry and Revenue Commissioner fees. No State agency is being asked either to provide money for implementation of this or a fee to use the system or have information provided to it through the system.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Politicians in particular are fans of business being done electronically as we can see the benefits for the economy and so on. Nevertheless, we have a memory of one electronic project that did not take off in our country, which was electronic voting. Central to widespread public concern about that and its eventual abandonment, notwithstanding the colossal investment of money and public resources that were subsequently lost, was the question of the trustworthiness of the system. Good people have a means of tracing what had gone on and ascertaining if there was a danger that the process could be corrupted or hacked, with our democracy damaged as a result. Do issues arise in Dr. Brennan's experience of researching this and delivering services in the area? Are there concerns about online infringement, hacking, cyber attacks and so on? How important is this when we peel back the issues and examine the way in which this works?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We discussed cyber attacks this morning with the Minister, as they are a big concern for the committee.

Dr. Gabriel Brennan:

This is a major issue. The purpose in modernising an existing process is to reduce risk, and one of the key considerations is not opening new avenues of risk. While we close risk in one area, we should not unintentionally open a risk in another area. Mr. Barnhart can speak to the specifics of electronic signatures and cyber attacks as he has experience to bear on the issue.

Mr. Dennis Barnhart:

It could be out of my league from an information technology perspective. We have never had a security breach and we have the highest levels of security in place. I have attended a presentation by our IT department detailing these issues and we are willing to meet whatever certification is necessary. We meet such certification today, and the governments of Ontario and Manitoba have the same interests. We have the associated policies, processes, procedures and certification necessary to ensure confidence that the data will not be compromised, as we are safeguarding them. We have not had any issues and we invest heavily wherever we work. Our reputation is ultimately at stake and one cyber attack that leads to data being accessed inappropriately would have a global impact on our reputation.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Will the witnesses tease this out in a way that fully respects the legal advice given to us and the Chairman's rulings in this regard? I ask them, please, not to make allegations about individuals or organisations. They have indicated that the proposal is receiving mixed messages, as they put it, from the banking industry. Mr. Dorgan indicated that, in some contexts, the response appeared hostile. What is the delegation's belief as to the nature of bank concerns or objections, and what has been communicated about those concerns? What is the delegation's sense as to the root motivation of that and how it can be addressed? This will assist us if, as I hope, we speak to bank representatives in due course.

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

To go backwards slightly, it is important for the committee to understand that we are not so much at the beginning but rather the end of a lengthy process of engagement with all stakeholders, including our members, the people present and banks. The project has been teased and worked out so it is pretty much ready to go. We got to a point in approximately March 2013 where the banks had been given some time to do their homework, and at that time a project manager was appointed to do a business case for the banks. We gave them extra time to do the business cases and they eventually reverted to the society in November 2013, setting out a number of concerns. One of the major concerns was that "during the course of the investigatory phase, consideration of the role of government both from a regulatory and sponsorship perspective was deemed critical to the success of the project". At that point it appeared that the banks were saying that if we could get the Government to endorse the project, they would be happy and we were delighted, as I mentioned, that the 2020 initiative gave such Government endorsement. It seems that in the banks' latest document they are seeking something way more than what they were in the form of Government ownership. We do not understand that or much of the document sent to the committee today. I repeat my regret that representatives could not be here today as it would have been of great assistance to the committee.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will invite them again to come before us when they are available to do so. I hope that can happen before the summer recess. It would provide an opportunity to outline their concerns. Sometimes property is given from one relative to another and no sale is involved if it is gifted or moved by way of will, etc. How would this new system affect those processes?

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

Those transactions are analogous, in effect, to a sale or purchase and, under new regulations introduced by statutory instrument, with many transactions two solicitors are involved to get over difficulties with conflicts of interest. The process would work in the same way except there would not be a transfer of funds. For example, funds would still transfer to the PRA for registry fees and stamp duty if the transfer involved relations. The system would facilitate the payment of stamp duty.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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It would help in that regard. I assume the estate agents are also on board and have been involved in the process.

Mr. Patrick Dorgan:

Yes, although they have not been formal partners in the process. It is certainly in our thinking that if the process is to be made electronic, it makes no sense that the letter of instruction from agents would be a physical document. Most agents communicate electronically anyway so we see no difficulty with bringing them in very quickly.

Dr. Gabriel Brennan:

With regard to the Chairman's question, the charge included in the original model by the Law Reform Commission envisaged inclusion of all stakeholders, including solicitors, estate agents, surveyors, lenders, the Land Registry, local authorities, the courts, the Revenue Commissioners and so on. One must start somewhere so the decision has been taken to start with the elements that will have most immediate benefits to the consumer. That will involve solicitors, lenders and the PRA. It is proposed to broaden the system to other stakeholders.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Are there any timescales as to when this might be up and running? That will depend on the inclusion of banks and others.

Dr. Gabriel Brennan:

We have modelled the process to deliver immediate benefits. Mr. Barnhart can speak to what can be achieved in a pilot process.

Mr. Dennis Barnhart:

Once we can begin development, there would be a year and a half or two years of development testing, with initial testing of users before continuing the roll-out. It would take approximately two and a half years.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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That would be from the get go.

Mr. Dennis Barnhart:

Yes.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I have a question for the PRA regarding the digitised land parcels. It was indicated that there are 2.8 million land parcels, with 2 million digitised. Is there a timeframe for digitising the rest of them?

Mr. Frank Treacy:

To be digitised, a property must be registered. I must give a quick history lesson. We have a registry of deeds dated from 1707 dealing with priority of documents. The Land Registry is a register of title originated by an Irish man called Torrens in Australia, with the system spreading to Canada and England. All the common law countries have a similar system. In order to have an e-conveyancing system, we need to register all the remaining pieces of land and digitise them. There is an ongoing programme to register all those plots and therefore digitise them.

It is hard to put a date on it because we are introducing new legislation which could involve a quicker way of doing it. It would be very resource intensive if we had to investigate all the titles, but it is something we are examining.

Mr. Peter McHugh:

There might be an element of confusion in that as well. The 2 million land parcels represent 2 million registered titles. Of the 2.8 million parcels that have been digitised, some of the 2 million titles would have more than one land parcel. That is what makes up the 2.8 million.

I wish to refer back to the issue of possible fraud, security and hacking. We put a number of measures in place in our electronic discharges project. A fraudulent discharge was a good opportunity for potential fraud because somebody could either remortgage and abscond or sell the property free of mortgage, and the lender would not know until a couple of months later when it realised the mortgage was in arrears. Under the electronic discharge, we built in internal processes within the bank and there is also instant notification to the bank when that charge is removed, so it would flag it immediately that there was an issue there. We also have all the proper monitoring and security systems in place on top of that.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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To clarify, Mr. McHugh is saying that the system going electronic brings additional security, over and above what we currently have.

Mr. Peter McHugh:

It is acknowledged by the three main parties in that process, ourselves, the lenders and the Law Society, that there is definitely improved security and a reduced risk of fraud.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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It appears to be a win-win project so we wish it well. With respect to the Property Registration Authority, Mr. Treacy, in any dealings I have had with it recently, it has been absolutely top class. I would like you to convey that to your staff. I have heard that from other colleagues as well. They are very professional, responsive, forthcoming and helpful, so I thank them for that.

Mr. Frank Treacy:

Thank you, Chairman. Good news is always appreciated.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Of course, you would also hear about it if it was different.

Mr. John O'Sullivan:

To refer to your question about timelines, Chairman, for those of us representing the public sector stakeholders the key development is to go ahead with the review set out in Construction 2020 and the Department of Justice and Equality will be leading that. It has been working hard on the merger of the three organisations and I am aware from speaking with some of the senior officials in the Department that they are very much aware of the commitment in that report and will be moving on that as well.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will keep an eye on that too. I thank all of you for attending the meeting today, particularly Mr. Barnhart who travelled all the way from Canada to engage with us. We appreciate your time. I wish you all well with the project and hope that the next time we meet there will be further developments and good news to impart.

Before I let you go, I have a final question. We mentioned common law and so forth. We are in the European Union so if people from other countries in the EU wish to purchase property, I assume that this does not apply to the same extent.

Mr. Denis Barnhart:

No.

Mr. Frank Treacy:

They have a notarised, civil law system but if they are buying property in this country they must buy it in the jurisdiction. There have been all sorts of attempts to have unified systems and a single mortgage for across the Union, but they did not get anywhere. The two systems are very different, so anybody buying abroad will buy through a solicitor or certainly through the system here.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. Is it agreed to publish the opening statements? Agreed. I thank the witnesses again for their engagement. We will suspend the sitting to facilitate a changeover of witnesses.