Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 18 June 2014
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Social Protection
Recent Closures of English Language Schools: Discussion
3:00 pm
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We resume in public session. I wish to draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
In this session we are dealing with the closure of private colleges and language schools. Over the past two months or so, five private colleges have closed, and the possibility of further closures has not been ruled out. Many students attached to these colleges have been affected by the closures. Many have lost substantial fees and many face an uncertain situation in regard to their continuing immigration status as a result of the closure.
I welcome the Irish Council for International Students, represented by Mr. Dave Moore and Mr. Bruno Mateus Francio. I invite Mr. Moore to make his presentation.
Mr. Dave Moore:
On behalf of the Irish Council for International Students, ICOS, I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to share the views and experience of our organisation and of the students with whom we have been working. ICOS is an independent organisation, founded in 1970, advocating for the rights of all international students in Ireland. We have been responding to the many issues related to the recent closure of five private colleges that occurred in a five-week period during April and May. Some students have now spent more than nine weeks out of class. The closures displaced several hundred international students who were already in Ireland and have jeopardised the studies of many more who had booked and paid but were yet to travel. The students we are working with are mostly young adults, with a high proportion coming from Brazil, Venezuela and other countries in Latin America to study English.
The affected students come from a range of countries, from South Korea to Malawi, and include students pursuing further education and degree programmes.
It is widely acknowledged, including by the Minister for Education and Skills, that there has been a lack of regulation of private colleges for some time. Plans to add a new quality assurance framework were announced in 2009 but are still under consultation. This has meant the proliferation of small, private colleges has continued for a number of years with inadequate oversight. Around 270 are listed as running approved programmes on the quality and qualifications, QQI, internationalisation register. Inclusion on that register confers the ability to recruit students that require study visas. Many schools on the list meet high standards but many others have owners whose motives, ethics and activities are highly questionable. All of the closed schools were listed as running approved programmes on the international register when they closed their doors.
None of the colleges were closed down by the authorities, though some were under investigation. In each case the owners packed up and left students high and dry. The Minister for Education and Skills has acknowledged that more colleges are expected to close and ICOS agrees. This is not the first time several private colleges closed in a single year but this situation is unique in the sheer extent of student displacement and the lack of preparedness exposed.
Many of the students involved have left their home countries for the first time and have been left uncertain and worried about their future studies. They have suffered consequential financial hardship and some students from Venezuela lost access to their Government's currency exchange programme that allowed them draw down funds for living costs and course fees. Many students are anxious to keep their visas in order as their immigration permission may have expired before there was a solution on the issue of emergency renewal. Several students lost part-time jobs as a result of this. Students have been left without insurance for medical emergencies because premiums were not paid by colleges. Students are generally expressing a sense of losing precious time they will never get back. They feel they have been defrauded by college owners who have walked away with their money and this is one of the most hurtful aspects. They feel bewilderment at the fact that it appears the authorities have done nothing.
The majority of the hundreds of students displaced were English language students. At the moment their situations vary and their positions are inequitable. Many have given up on Ireland and returned home early while some have attained places at other language schools at little or no charge. The circumstances are akin to a lottery. Others, who have seen no clear sign of a solution from the authorities, have felt forced to spend significant additional money on new courses. In several cases, even at Government-accredited colleges, the new courses have been turned down for visa purposes leaving the students stuck and deflated. Many English language students have simply been waiting in the hope of a solution because they lack the resources to do anything else.
The measures announced yesterday essentially say students should pay again for what they have already bought and this is not a fair solution for them. Only students of Eden College, which was formerly accredited by the Government and the Advisory Council for English Language Schools, ACELS, and was a member of the MEI language schools group, are covered by any arrangements on protection for learners. These arrangements are being applied restrictively so that only students who physically attended classes in 2013 are eligible to transfer at no fee. Students who bought courses in 2013, while Eden College was still accredited by ACELS, and in early 2014, while it was still listed on the MEI website, have been told they are not protected. This runs counter to the expectations of students. Many of them chose courses because they understood ACELS accreditation meant quality and protection.
There is a major problem for the credibility of learner protection. Students are expected to pay up-front for courses to obtain visas but do not receive up-front protection if their chosen college folds before they see the inside of a classroom. Learner protection that can evaporate is no protection at all. Eden College students who heard the offer made by MEI on Monday are extremely unhappy.
Alongside yesterday's announcement was the welcome launch of a new student task force information website but many urgent questions asked by students are not answered. There is a long way to go to answer those questions and ICOS has been hampered by the unclear answers to questions thus far. Students want the Irish authorities to show a human face and ICOS has articulated this for them. They want people to come out from behind e-mail addresses to speak to them about their concerns but this has not happened enough. There have been too many public statements referring to students with suspicion and too few with compassion as this situation is not of their making. On "Morning Ireland" a few hours ago the Minister said if there are hardship issues we will look at them. There is no "if". Many students are in acute situations and need support well beyond the limit of a small, non-profit organisation.
ICOS has been thoroughly supportive of the principle of the quality mark system and has actively participated in consultations on the initiative. However, if the private college sector is to be cleaned up and to shift from poorly regulated to well regulated the process must be very well managed. We must ensure the fallout from recent college closures is not a foretaste of further distress and displacement of students. Plans and resources must be put in place to protect students who may be victims of the failure of a college to meet the required standards. Robust learner protection arrangements and a proper support framework, including hardship provisions, are crucial in finding a way forward.
3:10 pm
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I think what has happened to these students is disgraceful. This may be the greatest swindle I have come across in some time. Delegates from the Department of Education and Skills will come before the committee after the current witnesses and I will have much to say to them. I do not think this issue has received the incisive exposure in the press that it should. Members of the press should follow this story to its centre.
How long has ICOS been in existence?
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Where is the organisation based?
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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How is ICOS funded?
Mr. Dave Moore:
Our members are, predominantly, educational institutions that pay subscriptions. Most of our funding relates to a specific programme, the Irish Aid fellowship.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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International students do not pay a stipend to ICOS.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Does the organisation receive State funding or funding from the Department of Education and Skills?
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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ICOS does not get State funding.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Were any of the colleges involved in this issue members of ICOS?
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Do any other international colleges, such as International House, make payments to ICOS?
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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How do international students access and make use of the services of ICOS?
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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How and when did ICOS come to know of the lack of regulation in this area? Some of these colleges have played fast and loose.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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What did ICOS do about the issue? Exactly how long was it aware of the problem?
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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So for the last five years ICOS was aware of the issue that has recently come to our attention.
When did ICOS and the Departments of Justice and Equality and Education and Skills begin to know that something was wrong?
3:20 pm
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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To be fair, the council is represented on the task force.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I know that. I am just asking Mr. Moore questions to which I would like to obtain some answers. I am extremely aware that the council is represented on the task force that has been charged with trying to clean up the sector. However, I would like to know how and when ICOS became aware that this was an enormous problem. In view of the fact that 2,000 students were involved, it was obviously not a tiny problem.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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One could say that about everybody.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I am just wondering how and when it was established that a problem existed.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Did Mr. Moore have an inkling in advance that there was something amiss or did it all just suddenly happen one day?
Mr. Dave Moore:
As already stated, we have been making representations. There has been a five-year gap since reference to the need for quality assurance measures. That matter was first put on the table in 2009 and ICOS has participated in all the consultations which have taken place. We previously made submissions highlighting issues that arose as a result of previous college closures and the need to move to having a much more regulated sector in order that students will not be the displaced victims of that process.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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So ICOS has been highlighting issues with the Government and the Departments of Education and Skills and Justice and Equality over a period of years.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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To whom did ICOS make representations?
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Are the representations made by ICOS documented?
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I presume ICOS would also have made representations to the Department of Education and Skills on behalf of individual students who raised issues with it.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I accept that ICOS is represented on the task force charged with cleaning up this mess. In his initial contribution, Mr. Moore stated, "The key question for ICOS at this time is not what led to the closures but how many more will follow". I beg to differ. The key question relates to what led to the closures, what were the reasons involved and why was action not taken either last year, the year before or five years ago in order to prevent the closures. It is only now, with 2,000 students out on the street, that action is being taken.
Loose regulation, improper accreditation and the other elements that constituted the perfect storm did not just come into being last week or the week before. The key question is what led to the closures. That is what I want to discover. If I cannot obtain the relevant information here, I will obtain it through the press. What actually happened that allowed 2,000 students to be left out on the streets? The idea that students who have nowhere to go will be looked upon benevolently is ridiculous. They must all be offered places on alternative courses of some sort. I am on ICOS's side. I am merely trying to discover what led to the closures. When did ICOS first become involved with this matter? For how long, in what way and to whom has it being flagging the problems that exist in the five years since Mr. Moore became head of the organisation? My questions are designed to show that I am on Mr. Moore's team. I am not questioning his authenticity.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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They were obviously not understood.
Mr. Dave Moore:
The entire concept of a quality mark and the need to step up the level of quality assurance emanated from the Department of Education and Skills - which we absolutely support - was a reflection of the situation that was understood, namely, that standards needed to be raised significantly.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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However, that realisation should not have come about yesterday. It should have been arrived at last year or in the preceding three years. This is the tragedy. What is being stated now is that we are moving on and doing things differently. This matter has been bubbling away for the past three to five years and the relevant individuals have been getting away with it during that period. That is my point.
If the students involved were issued with visas, then that implies State responsibility. In that context, therefore, students would have assumed that there was some form of regulatory authority in place. That is ICOS's calling card in the context of the State's calling card of benevolence.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We will take questions from Deputy Jim Daly and Mr. Moore can then reply to both members.
Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our guests. I assure them that my style is not quite so Judge Judy-like as that employed by the previous interrogator.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I am on Mr. Moore's side.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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ICOS is still here in a representative capacity and it is a member of the task force.
Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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As stated, I will not be quite so adversarial in my approach. I am completely sympathetic to the plight of the students involved. It is they who are the victims in all of this. I commend Mr. Moore and his organisation on the efforts they are making on their behalf.
What does ICOS see as being the specific role of the Department of Education and Skills in respect of this sector? This whole sorry saga reminds me very much of what happened in the travel industry previously. Thankfully, the problems by which that industry was affected have been resolved. Similar problems appear to be afflicting private colleges. It strikes me that the issue which arises is one of a consumer rights nature and that it is not really relevant to the Department of Education and Skills. Mr. Moore referred to compassion and people's need to see the face behind the e-mail. With respect, while these might appear to be important, I am of the view that people need more than compassion and to be able to see the face of the person sending the e-mail. Will Mr. Moore indicate specifically what he believes the Department of Education and Skills should do into the future?
Mr. Dave Moore:
What is absolutely highlighted is the need for a clear protection framework for all learners from the point of view of pursuing studies in Ireland. Obviously, I have drawn attention to the fact that students who were not in the country when the colleges closed would have no protection in the context of the way in which things are currently being done. Earlier today, we submitted specific proposals around the whole issue of learner protection. Other countries have watertight services in terms of protecting fees whereby they are held in an escrow arrangement and drawn down on a gradual basis rather than colleges receiving them in their entirety upfront. We have seen the repercussions of the latter, with students losing sums amounting to €7,000 in certain instances. That model is used in other countries.
Students in public sector colleges can avail of the services of the Ombudsman. There is no structure in place that offers any kind of protection for students who attend private sector colleges. A substantial issue arises in the context of the agents with whom students book their courses. In a fair proportion of cases, students book their courses through third parties rather than directly with colleges. That is an unregulated and extremely problematic aspect of this matter.
We have certainly seen agents in Mumbai still selling courses for colleges that are closed. There are serious issues around the roles agents play.
Much more proactive information needs to be made available for students to steer them in the direction of sound course choices. The only publicly available document at present which offers students any guidance as to what are approved courses is the internationalisation register, and that has been the problem more than the solution in recent times because all the colleges that have closed were on that. They were listed as approved. There needs to be an entirely new frame of reference for students seeking to choose their programmes, obviously based on solid, quality assurance measures for the programmes that make the list, and once those regulations are in place, they need to be robustly enforced. As a student said at a meeting in the context of the status of the colleges, they are private businesses but they are not candy shops. They are organisations where hundreds, if not thousands, of students' futures are on the line, and if they are not rigorously regulated, we could have repeats of what has happened.
3:30 pm
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Can I take issue with-----
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Senator, I am the Chairman and I want to bring in Deputy McConalogue.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I want to take issue with something Deputy Daly said. I advise the Deputy that I am not being destructive, rather I am being highly constructive because what we do much of time in Ireland is move on but we rarely find out why something has happened. I am trying to find out why this has happened. I am not trying to blame anybody. The ICOS would be the last people I would blame but I am trying to give them ammunition as to why benevolence is not going to work and as to why the State has a responsibility in this having issued the visas. Also, there is no comparison between this and a travel agency in the sense that hundreds of students came here with parental money, well-saved-----
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Senator has made her point.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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-----for a qualitative educational language structure and did not get it.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Senator's point is noted.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I wanted to take issue with that. It am seeking to be constructive, not destructive.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I call Deputy McConalogue.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Dave Moore and Mr. Bruno Mateus Francio for coming in today. I commend Mr. Moore and his organisation on the representation, work and support they have given the many students who found themselves in a desperate and stressful situation as a result of what happened. It is a sad reflection that something like this could have been allowed to happen, to go on for so long and that this area remained unregulated such that we have had this collapse which has left many students stranded. Also, there is the fact that visas were issued to colleges, which visas were subsequently withdrawn overnight, leading to five colleges closing in short order. I do not know if Mr. Bruno Mateus Francio attended one of the colleges which closed. I would like to hear of his experience, how he chose that course, and his background. He might also advise us of the circumstances facing many of his friends and colleagues who were attending those colleges.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Before Mr. Mateus Francio responds I ask him to be brief because we will finish shortly after 3 p.m. I ask him to be aware that we must sensitive to any legal issues and I ask him to speak about his circumstances but not to go into any detail that might in any way attach to someone else.
Mr. Bruno Mateus Francio:
I thank the members for being here and for having this meeting. I booked for a course in Brazil. I looked at many websites on the Internet to see if the courses offered were good or not. I saw that Eden College was on the ICOS website and also on the MEI site, so I booked with it and I paid for the course in January. I came here and attended classes for one and a half months and then the school closed, which left all the students out on the street, as it were. Nobody, other than ICOS, was talking to us. We have sent many e-mails to the immigration service, INIS, and the MEI, but we never got a reply.
I have some friends in Brazil who paid for this course and they are still in Brazil. Some of my friends will go back to Brazil. I paid €3,000 for the course. It is a lot of money.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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For how long was that course?
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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That is a university fee.
Mr. Bruno Mateus Francio:
I had only completed one and a half months. Last year I worked very hard as an engineer but I had a dream in Brazil that I would go abroad and learn English because I have to develop my English. I came here with that dream and I was very happy when I got here but now all that has happened has made me and most of my friends very sad. I came to Ireland to study for six months and then go back to Brazil. Now I am on holidays but I do not want to be. I am already two months on holidays. I do not know if I will go back to Brazil or stay here because I am wasting money with having to pay rent, bus fares and all the costs because I am not working here. I do not have work or school and I have to pay rent for the house.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Have you found the ICOS helpful?
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Has it got back to you with answers to your questions?
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Yes.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Mateus Francio came here to study for six months. Did that course come with a six months visa or was the visa for longer?
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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The visa can be one year. Mr. Mateus Francio paid €3,000 for a six months language course and that did not include accommodation or anything like that. That was all extra.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Two weeks accommodation-----
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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-----until Mr. Mateus Francio found his own accommodation.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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What is Mr. Mateus Francio's view of the proposal put forward by the task force to provide replacement English language courses as an option for himself and other students who are in a similar situation? From his experience what is the situation facing many of these students six weeks or two months after this has happened? Have many gone home, are many still here and are many waiting to see what offers or opportunities may come in terms of replacement courses?
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Have many of Mr. Mateus Francio's fellow students have gone home at this stage?
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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What percentage of them have gone home as opposed to those who have stayed here?
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It is obviously bad for the reputation of the country as well.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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What made Mr. Mateus Francio decide to come to Ireland to study? His options would have been to come here or to go to Britain. Would similar students from Brazil go to the United States to study?
Mr. Bruno Mateus Francio:
We have a group on Facebook, some 20,000 people, and we share much information about other countries. I asked them all which country is better to learn English abroad and they said perhaps Canada or Ireland because it is a beautiful country, the people are good there, it is good for learning English and it is an English-speaking country.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Mateus Francio for coming in today along with Mr. Moore to give us that insight.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Thank you both very much.
Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I would make a few further points.
I wish to comment on what Mr. Moore said and what we also heard from the Department. Mr. Francio referred to having checked the international register and the list of approved courses. The course must be approved on the register before the Department issues a visa for someone to study on it in this country. There are question marks over the existing regulation and how one would get on the register. In order for students to come to this country to study we must issue them with visas. There is an obligation on us to ensure that where we consent to allow students to come here on visas, there is an implicit belief that the course is valid, of quality and one for which the State is willing to issue a visa for someone to come to this country to study. Much work needs to be done to ensure that is the case because otherwise the system will be damaged.
Five colleges closed in quick succession when visas were withdrawn. There are 270 colleges overall. Could Mr. Moore outline how many students are involved in those colleges? Are most of the students in the 270 colleges English language students? How can we be sure that problems will not arise for colleges that are currently recruiting for upcoming language courses? More action must be taken to ensure colleges that are currently recruiting are not in danger of closing in three or four months' time. What can be done to ensure that assurances can be made to students?
Reference was made to the QQI, Quality and Qualifications Ireland, internationalisation register in terms of the regulation of the 270 colleges. What type of inspections are carried out currently in existing colleges? What is the role of the QQI in such inspections and in terms of the international register?
3:40 pm
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Before I go back to Mr. Moore for a response I will take the remaining questions and we will wrap up afterwards.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Francio. I am sorry his experience was so bad. I hope the situation will be rectified in some way. Does Mr. Moore think the Government is doing enough to assist in the situation? It was announced that 70% of students would be redeployed. What does Mr. Moore believe must happen now?
Mr. Dave Moore:
As an organisation we are very much about the voice of students. What they have clearly said is that after an extended wait to hear what resolution could be provided, the idea of paying again for what they have already paid for is unjust and is simply not an option, as Mr. Francio said, for a great many students. If the authorities hear what the students have to say I hope there would be further reflection on whether Ireland has played fair by the students affected.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I understand the international register but in one way it can be a red herring and the Government could be hiding behind it, because it is up to each state to regulate. International registers are one thing but it is up to a state to ensure all is well when people are being given visas. Responsibility comes with such a situation. In one way that is an overarching red herring. It is up to each country to regulate, ensure quality assurance and look after young students who go to language schools. The Government should not get off the hook.
Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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It is for language schools.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I am going to conclude the meeting. We will raise the issues that have been raised with us with the Department and we will follow up on them. We have gained enough information at the meeting to do that. I invite both witnesses to make a final remark if they wish and then I will conclude the item.
Mary Moran (Labour)
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I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh-----
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I do not wish to open up the discussion again.
Mary Moran (Labour)
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I will not. I apologise but-----
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I do not wish to take any more questions. We must move on.
Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We will pursue the matter further. I am sorry about that. That brings that aspect of the meeting to a close. I urge members to remain as we are now going into private session. I again thank the witnesses.