Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The purpose of this meeting is to discuss the reports by the Ombudsman for Children on the meta-analysis of repetitive root cause issues regarding the provision of services for children in care; the investigation into HSE social work service provision in North Lee; and the investigation into the implementation of Children First: National Guidelines for the Protection and Welfare of Children. I welcome those in attendance and those watching live on the UPC channel and online. I welcome the witnesses from the Office of the Ombudsman for Children, Dr. Niall Muldoon, director of investigations, and Ms Deirdre O'Shea, investigator, and Ms Nikki Gallagher, who is in the Visitors Gallery. I thank them for being here.

I remind people to switch off their mobile telephones as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment and it is unfair to staff. Apologies have been received from Deputies Catherine Byrne, Robert Troy, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and Peter Fitzpatrick. The Ombudsman for Children cannot be here today and we understand this, but it is important that the committee hears from her. Perhaps as part of our work programme this can be facilitated prior to the summer recess. It has been a considerable time since the Ombudsman for Children has come before the committee and under the Act it is important that we have dialogue and communication, which we do, and also to hear from the Ombudsman for Children herself. I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee; it is good to have them here.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tá vótáil ar siúl anois.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The best laid plans of mice and men.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for the delay and I thank Dr. Niall Muldoon and Ms Deirdre O'Shea from the Office of the Ombudsman for Children for their patience.

Before we begin I remind witnesses of the position in regard to privilege. They are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice or ruling of the Chair to the effect that where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice or ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Dr. Muldoon to make his opening remarks.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to appear before the joint committee today. I extend an apology from the Ombudsman for Children who is unable to attend as she is out of the country as she has been invited to address an international conference for UNICEF. I am sure she would be quite happy to take up the invitation by the Chair to try to attend a meeting of the joint committee before the end of this session.

As the Chairman will be aware, during the past decade the Ombudsman for Children has used her statutory remit as set out in the Ombudsman for Children Act 2002 to monitor children's rights and welfare in Ireland, including through our complaints and investigations function. Some of the issues highlighted by her to date include the situation of children being detained in St. Patrick's Institution, the necessity to set up a committee to review all child deaths, the situation of separated children and how they are cared for and the issue of children and homelessness.

The Ombudsman for Children's Office, OCO, is ten years old this year and in that time it has received more than 10,000 complaints from children and their advocates in respect of a wide variety of issues. The reason we are attending this meeting and presenting three different reports is to highlight the range and consistency of issues we have addressed with regard to child protection and children in care.

The office felt that it was appropriate at the time when the new Child and Family Agency is being established to lay before the Oireachtas these reports in order that it and more especially this committee can be in possession of the most up-to-date data relating to what system issues are arising and how they are adversely affecting children. It is our firm belief that by setting out the range of issues, the recommendations made and the action accruing from the HSE and-or from the Child and Family Agency as a result that the office can afford this committee the knowledge to scrutinise the relevant Departments and agencies properly about their ongoing progress in this area.

Since the office was established in 2004, child protection has consistently been an issue of concern. The first special report to the Oireachtas in 2006 related to complaints of a child protection nature. The first own volition investigation was into the State's implementation of its child protection guidelines, Children First, initiated in late 2008 and published in 2010. Since then we have published numerous individual cases that contain child protection concerns.

Today, we welcome the opportunity to discuss a suite of three reports that the Ombudsman for Children believes raise issues that need to be addressed and, equally important, contain detailed findings and recommendations setting out ways in which the delivery of child protection services can be improved. The office is conscious of its responsibility to make recommendations that promote the best interests of the child.

The reports we are discussing today are the recently published Meta-analysis of Repetitive Root Cause Issues regarding the Provision of Services for Children in Care, 2014; An Investigation into the Implementation of Social Work Services in North Lee, published in 2013; and the previously mentioned Investigation into the Implementation of Children First: National Guidelines for the Protection and Welfare of Children, published in 2010. Each of these reports is based on rigorous and robust investigations, which at all times adhere to our mandate to be neither an advocate for the child nor an adversary to the public body, thereby ensuring fairness has been afforded to all.

In chronological order, the first report before members today is the Children First investigation in which the Ombudsman for Children sought to establish the extent of implementation of those guidelines, which had been established in 1999. The Ombudsman for Children initiated the investigation, of her own volition, because she had seen numerous individual cases where the rigour or application of the Children First national guidelines for the protection and welfare of children was questioned in various areas of the country. The Ombudsman for Children's investigation found a lack of consistency across many areas of the country in how the reporting of physical, sexual and emotional child abuse and neglect was handled despite the existence of national guidelines for almost ten years at that stage.

The findings of this report include poor inter-agency co-operation between the Garda and the HSE; poor record keeping; insufficient efforts made to drive forward the implementation of Children First; evidence of poor quality assurance and a lack of consistent local procedures; and a lack of a 24 hour external access mechanism for people reporting child abuse. It is important to note that this investigation was initiated prior to the Ryan report being completed. It was within this report that the Ombudsman for Children was the first to call for the HSE to "consider whether child protection services are best delivered within the context of the HSE". This was a clear indication that this office was concerned that the whole child protection mechanism was being lost within the mammoth HSE system.

Having made such a call, this office welcomes the establishment of the new Child and Family Agency, to be known as Tusla. We are pleased that it comes under the aegis of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. This ensures the focus is much more clearly on children and their families than heretofore. I can highlight the importance of having a specialised agency such as Tusla by reporting that in 2013, just over a quarter of all cases dealt with by this office related to issues under the remit of the newly established agency.

The second report relates to a complaint that was received, which highlighted concerns about the capacity of a local HSE area to cope with the level of child abuse reports being received. The issues that were highlighted included the screening, assessment and follow-up of referrals in the area. At the heart of this investigation was a desire to ascertain whether cases where children were reported as being abused had been adequately assessed and followed up in a manner which ensured the child was safe. This investigation led to seven recommendations, including the requirement for better national oversight of referrals and resource allocation in the area, the need for social work caseloads to be addressed by HSE at national level so that guidance can be given to social work teams on caseload size and weighting and the need for a full HIQA inspection to take place in the area. We also recommended, not for the first time, that the HSE needed to improve its public accountability by gathering and publishing appropriate and accurate data on its activity in the child protection field. At that point, the most recent figures available were three years old. The HSE said the claim that children were unscreened and unassessed and have had no follow up is unfounded and unsubstantiated. Nevertheless, it went on to implement all of the recommendations.

The most recent report before the committee is "A Meta-Analysis of Repetitive Root Cause Issues Regarding the Provision of Services for Children in Care". Approximately 10% of all cases examined by the office each year relate to children in care. That is a significant body of evidence on which to draw. The ten cases we have selected within the meta-analysis are representative of the issues and trends that have been identified from that sizeable cohort of cases. There were approximately 6,400 children in the care system in December 2013. The majority of them were in foster care. A small number of children - some 324, or 5% of the total in December 2013 - were living in the residential care system. With two exceptions, all the cases in the meta-analysis refer to children in residential placements. The purpose of the meta-analysis is to highlight the significant cross-cutting themes we have identified and ensure they are given attention so that children and families should not need to have recourse to this office on these topics in the future.

In the meta-analysis report, the office recognised the huge efforts and important contributions made by many staff involved in the care of young people. Seven main issues that arose needed to be highlighted. I will go through the recommendations for improvement made by the office in each case. On the issue of the provision of residential care for children, we recommended that a strategic development plan for residential care of children is required. On the issue of the protection of children in care, we recommended the introduction of a multi-agency policy, procedure and system which can identify, refer and respond to situations where young people in care place themselves at risk through their own behaviour. On the issue of assessment and care planning, we recommended that a comprehensive and robust assessment of need to inform care plans and integration between care plans and placement plans, with social workers as key co-ordinators, is required.

On the issue of social work practice, we recommended the implementation of a revised staff supervision policy, the provision of sufficient training and resources and the introduction of an annual audit. On the issue of inter-professional and multi-agency collaboration, we identified a requirement for corporate parenting across all Departments, State agencies and relevant service providers and a need for the annual report to report any issues in this regard to ensure they are properly accounted for. On the issue of record-keeping, we recommended the full implementation of a new policy on records management, the training of social workers in this area and the annual auditing of records to ensure quality. On the issue of governance, we recommended that robust governance should be in place to avoid a recurrence of these issues in the future.

At least two of these issues were present in each of the cases within the meta-analysis. This is an indication of the repetitive nature of many of the system failures. Members will recall that the issues of record keeping and interagency co-operation were highlighted in the Children First investigation. This clearly shows the systemic nature of the flaws. Some of the cases in the meta-analysis highlighted certain problems. For example, one child moved between 11 placements in four months. Another child was forced to stay longer than necessary in a justice facility because of delays in completing an assessment and sourcing an onward placement. In another case, Children First was not implemented in a particular HSE region until late 2012. Given the own-volition investigation we carried out and the assurances that things would change in 2010, this was a very disappointing discovery.

Our office engaged with the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, when she was serving as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. We have also engaged with departmental officials and the CEO of the Child and Family Agency around the issues set out in the meta-analysis. I am pleased to include a response from Tusla in this report. It is the belief of the Ombudsman for Children that the Oireachtas, particularly the Joint Committee on Health and Children, is well placed to monitor and hold to account the Department and the agency on their progress with these issues. The Ombudsman for Children does not believe her office should have to investigate these issues over and over again. Now that the new agency is in place, they should be addressed. It is her intention that the findings in this report and the recommendations it contains will contribute positively to the ongoing reform of Ireland’s child and family support service. She also intends that the root causes identified will cease to be the subject of examination by this office, other than in exceptional circumstances.

Children in care may have had difficult childhoods. Most of them have experienced periods of instability and insecurity. They may have had their education disrupted and their health needs neglected. They are entitled to the right to prepare for a successful adult life. That should not be hampered by the very service set up to aid them. We hope the committee will find these reports, considered collectively, and the issues we have raised today helpful when it is engaging in its regular reviews of the work of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and the Child and Family Agency. The ability to learn from our mistakes is something that makes good systems better and affords hope for the children of the future. I thank members for their time and attention.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the absence of Deputy Troy, I call Deputy McLellan.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for their informative presentation. I would like to make a few observations and ask some questions. Dr. Muldoon said that the Ombudsman for Children's Office "is ten years old this year and... has received more than 10,000 complaints from children" in that time. Is the level of complaints increasing? The average annual number of complaints over the last decade is approximately 1,000. What is the annual figure at present? Is it closer to 1,500 or 500? How quickly are these complaints dealt with? Dr. Muldoon suggested that the Children First report highlighted "poor inter-agency co-operation between the Garda and the HSE". Was that common right across the board or was it the exception? How has that improved? How can we further improve it? He also said that the HSE "went on to implement all of the recommendations" of the report on social work service provision in North Lee. How was this achieved? What impact has this had? The issues of poor record-keeping and interagency co-operation were highlighted in the meta-analysis. In one case, a child was moved 11 times to different placements. In another case, a child was forced to stay longer than necessary in a justice facility. Can Dr. Muldoon give us the name of the facility in question? Does this still happen? What are the effects that this can have on a child? I note that Children First was not implemented in a particular HSE region until late 2012. I want to know why this was allowed to happen. Has this been rectified?

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. Muldoon and Ms O'Shea. They are very welcome here today. If it is the case that some of my questions would be more appropriately answered by the Ombudsman for Children, I will have no difficulty with being advised to that effect. I will not ask some other questions today.

Deputy McLellan asked about the number of investigations over the last ten years. I would be very interested to get an understanding of the nature and type of the complaints that are being received by the public. I know from previous reports that complaints are predominantly received from parents who are advocating on behalf of their children, but I would like to know how this has evolved and changed over the ten-year period in question. Should we be more worried about certain Departments? I am sure Departments have learnt lessons as they have dealt with the Ombudsman for Children. Perhaps some of them would get gold stars while others would not. It would be interesting to understand what is going on in that area.

The second issue I would like to raise is the question of engagement with the Oireachtas under section 19 of the Act. As a Member of the Oireachtas, I have a difficulty with reports from the Ombudsman for Children being laid before the media before being laid before the Oireachtas. The Act does not clearly articulate that they should go before us first, but I would have thought, in light of the clear role of the Ombudsman for Children with regard to the Oireachtas, that we should have sight of those reports in advance. Is there a way that we can look at this? I have looked at the reports to which Dr. Muldoon has referred. In the foreword to the meta-analysis, the Ombudsman for Children says that "each of these promised actions [this refers to the recommendations] by the newly formed Child and Family Agency will allow the Oireachtas to measure Tusla's progress and provide a baseline for improvements which we all hope to see for this small but extremely vulnerable cohort of children".

How does the Ombudsman for Children see the Oireachtas playing that role? She has clearly outlined that we have a role although until I read the report in preparation for today's meeting I had not seen that the responsibility was placed on us. Is the responsibility placed on the Joint Committee on Health and Children or the Oireachtas as a whole?

The Children First report will go before the Houses. I remember when the April 2010 report came out, there was a clear reference in chapter 3D to an industrial relations issue that arose in the eastern regional health authority concerning individuals who refused to implement Children First. Can we be assured with the new Child and Family Agency that there are no industrial relations issues pertaining to Children First or is that something the committee should ask directly of the agencies?

Following the establishment of the Child and Family Agency and the meta-analysis report published by the Ombudsman for Children in December, what engagements has the office had with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and the Child and Family Agency on the ombudsman’s recommendations? I concur with all of them, but I would like to see progress and to consider how we can best ensure we make such progress for children.

I wish to ask a question of the Ombudsman for Children but I cannot. Special powers were delegated to her on the investigation into the Roma children incidents not to the Office of the Ombudsman. I wish to ask about the findings but I cannot ask the question today.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome Dr. Muldoon and Ms O'Shea. I am interested in hearing their responses to the questions already asked. When complaints are made about a child who is being mistreated in some way, to what extent are they satisfied that matters are satisfactorily resolved? Some years ago I was involved in reporting-----

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could I advise Senators that there is a vote in the Seanad?

Jillian van Turnhout (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I can read the transcript if necessary.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senator van Turnhout can wait a moment.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Some years ago I had to complain about the treatment of a child I was teaching. I never felt the issue was resolved satisfactorily because it was to do with neglect at home. The child was severely physically disabled and was not able to look after himself in the way a normal 13-year old or 14-year old would. In a way I regretted ever making the complaint, except that I was obliged to do so because I felt the only result was that the boy got it in the neck from one of his carers.

Do the witnesses have a role in protecting children who are in hostels for people awaiting citizenship applications? I am concerned about children living in such situations for prolonged periods. Can anything be done to check that children in those situations are being properly looked after and are not subject to abuse of any kind?

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

I will respond to Deputy McLellan's question. In terms of statistics, the annual report for 2013 will be out soon. We have seen an increase in complaints. We started in April 2004 and there were 94 complaints in the first year. Complaints have steadily risen and since 2010 we have seen an increase of approximately 16% up to last year which, shows that complaints have increased in recent years. The average number of complaints is approximately 1,600 per year. To June of this year we have seen an increase of 6% on last year. We are working hard to increase the awareness of the office in various population groups. We are trying to link in with as many different populations to make them aware of our existence and, accordingly, that has resulted in a considerable increase in reporting to us.

The majority of complaints are addressed fairly quickly. Many of them require signposting only and do not always end up in an investigation. The majority of cases are dealt with in the first four to six weeks while more complicated preliminary inquiries and investigations can take anywhere from two months to a couple of years. Cases are wide-ranging but the majority of our work is done very quickly. More complicated investigations are based on our remit to be neither an advocate for a child or an adversary to a public body that involves a lot of fair play. We would engage in toing and froing with a public body to ensure we investigate cases in the most appropriate and fair manner. That takes a bit of time and it is only at the stage when the interaction with the public body is done that we can conclude an investigation. We are working hard to speed up investigations and to reduce the time taken to approximately 12 months. We are not quite there yet but we are working on it. Perhaps Ms O’Shea would respond on the questions about Garda and HSE co-operation.

Ms Deirdre O'Shea:

Deputy McLellan will be aware that in the context of the Children First investigation there were a number of concerns about the liaison between the Garda and the HSE. We made recommendations about that to both the HSE and the Garda at the time. We met with the Garda, although it is not part of our investigative remit, and we had a positive response from it on the recommendations made.

One of the issues raised was about the need for the formal liaison structures that were recommended as part of the Children First guidance. One of our recommendations in the Children First investigation was the need for external inspection to look at how those mechanisms were taking place, in particular aspects such as strategy meetings, liaison management meetings and notifications. We are pleased that since we have concluded the investigation, HIQA has now commenced inspection of the HSE - now Child and Family Agency - social work services. I hope that will give some oversight on the level of co-ordination that is occurring with An Garda Síochána.

The response we got was a commitment to improved communication and a number of mechanisms were put in place. An Garda Síochána and the Child and Family Agency are meeting at a senior level to look at the overall issues because one of the things we found was that it required both senior management to meet to address the issues but also that local liaison should occur on individual case referrals. We had a positive response to the recommendation.

We made seven recommendations following the investigation into the social services in the north Lee area. The first was about external inspection because while we can look at an individual complaint, our key concern was about the need to inspect the overall service provision that was occurring in the area and that required review of case files which was more appropriate for HIQA to look at. We also made recommendations about the need to review the north Lee area because of the high referral rate, the difficulty in responding to cases in a timely manner and the level of unallocated cases. We saw during the course of our investigation that a number of steps were taken to look at additional supports that could be put in place as well as looking at the response to referrals when they first occurred. The critical issue was about how resources are matched to need and a need for ongoing monitoring in that regard.

One of the changes the Child and Family Agency introduced – it was the HSE at the time – was a "measuring the pressure" project which allowed monthly reporting through to the national office that gave information about the level of the referral rate and also about the number of unallocated cases. There were still concerns on these aspects during the course of the investigation but there was better oversight and monitoring by the national office in order to develop strategies for dealing with the issues that arose.

We also made a number of other recommendations, a number of which pertained to issues relating to social work caseload management. Some of the actions are still ongoing because we understand that work is still occurring in that regard but we thought it was important to report to the Oireachtas so that it is aware of the kinds of issues we were highlighting in terms of social work service provision.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the context of the north Lee report, is Ms O’Shea satisfied with the implementation of the strategies arising from the report?

Ms Deirdre O'Shea:

We are satisfied that there was a positive response when we investigated all of the recommendations made.

We were concerned about the increasing level of referrals over time to the children and family services. There is a need for ongoing monitoring of the capacity of the children and family services to respond to referrals. The critical issues in north Lee relate to the high referral rate, the level of response times and the difficulty in responding within the timeframes that are required as part of the Children First guidance and the Child Protection Welfare Practice handbook, particularly in terms of carrying out initial assessments. The difficulty is that if there is a delay in carrying out the initial assessments, that impacts on how quickly concerns can be responded to and establishing the seriousness of those concerns in respect of the children who are being referred to the services. We saw that the area took a number of steps locally to look at how they might respond to the increasing referral level. They were holding meetings with local community services to look at how some cases might be intercepted at an earlier stage and directed through to family support and prevention rather than awaiting social work intervention. Clearly there is a need for ongoing monitoring of the referral rates both in terms of allegations of child abuse as well as child welfare cases.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a consequence of the report, has the high referral rate continued or has there been a reduction in the rate of referrals, given the implementation of the strategies that were outlined by Ms O'Shea?

Ms Deirdre O'Shea:

The referral rate continues to be high in the most recent information.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Given the demographics and nature of the area?

Ms Deirdre O'Shea:

We carried out a six months review and the referral rate continued to be high. They were continuing to implement the strategies. We were of the view that there needs to be continued monitoring of the capacity of the service to be able to respond to the referral rate. The general referral rate for child protection and welfare services is an issue of concern. The referral rate level is not specific to north Lee but our investigation was specifically related to north Lee.

In terms of the meta-analysis, I was asked about the inter-agency co-operation. We were particularly concerned about the liaison between social work departments and the child and adolescent mental health services. We saw the difficulties that children experience in accessing some of the services. There is a need for improved communication, a proactive response and liaison across the agencies in planning for children in care. There were situations in which the children in care were placed outside of their local area and there was difficulty in accessing the child and adolescent mental health services in the area in which they were placed. During the course of our investigations of the ten cases - but it did not occur in all of them, but it was a feature in a number of cases - the issues were resolved but there was a need for improved inter-agency co-operation in working with mental health services. Another difficulty for children in care is accessing educational services, particularly when they are moving placements, as they can then experience difficulties in accessing education and gaining the support they require in education.

The implementation of Children First was an issue in one of our investigations. During the course of the investigation it was confirmed that Children First was being implemented but that was in late 2012. We had concerns about the implementation of Children First when we concluded that investigation in 2010.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

In regard to the inter-agency co-operation, we are aware that the new Child and Family Agency is in the process of establishing memorandum of understandings with groups such as Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services, CAMHS, and other agencies that are now outside of their governance. We would urge that this happen quickly. This is a key area. When the bodies were under the same umbrella, it was a very difficult co-operation scenario. We urge that the memoranda are as clear as possible that the child is at the centre and that they are brought forward as quickly as possible as ways of working and co-operating together.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the governance structure in situ now? It is working seamlessly?

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

Our understanding is that the memorandum of understanding is with the HSE. It is not specifically with CAMHS and other agencies. That is being worked out at this stage. Does that cover the Chairman's question?

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

Senator van Turnhout asked about the number and types of complaints. The types of complaints have been fairly consistent over time. The majority of complaints we receive come from the area of the Department of Education and Skills, it consistently has been between 40% to 50%. The most recent figure was about 45%. The majority of children come under that remit. As I said in my opening statement 25% of our work relates to the Child and Family Agency. The fact that there is now an agency with 4,000 staff dealing with cases in that area, as opposed to the HSE with 80,000 staff, will help us enormously. We have hopes that the new agency will be more agile and more able to cope with the difficulties that we come across and to date our engagement with them has been very constructive. The HSE has now devolved the Child and Family Agency into a separate body and that is a big learning curve. The establishment of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs is also a significant step forward. The child is becoming closer and closer to the centre of the work of the public bodies. That is very encouraging.

The role of the Oireachtas in managing the recommendations coming from the Office of the Ombudsman for Children is that given the children and family services are evolving into a separate agency, we felt it was time for us to pull all our learning together and put it on record so that in the Oireachtas there is the ability to look back at the work we have done and the recommendations we have made and use that in a constructive manner to challenge the Child and Family Agency to ensure it has a standard against which progress can be measured. That was our intention when we presented the meta-analysis and these other reports.

On the industrial relations at the Child and Family Agency, to the best of my knowledge that has changed. It is something the committee might need to confirm with the Child and Family Agency but my understanding from the Children First report, which is now four years old, is that the industrial relations issues have been settled, but it would be no harm to check that out when the agency comes before the joint committee.

On the question of the engagement of the Ombudsman for Children's Office with the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and Tusla, as part of the meta-analysis we met with the then Minister and her officials as well as the officials from the Child and Family Agency and that was a very constructive meeting. We found ourselves in a position in which there are very positive responses to our recommendations. It has set out clear deadlines and quarterly targets for meeting the recommendations. We hope this will be overseen by the Oireachtas. It has been a very positive engagement from our point of view. We hope this new agency will be a major step forward for the care of the children that we are looking after.

Senator van Turnhout also inquired about the Roma children. I cannot comment on that at this stage.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there a date for the matter to be concluded?

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

As far as I know the report was presented to the Minister for Justice and Equality and it is up to that Department to decide on the publication date.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fair enough. Thank you.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

On the issue of reports going to the media before laying them before the Oireachtas, we are very clear that all our reports go to the Oireachtas. My understanding is that this happens simultaneously. There may be presentations to the media in some situations. We do not present all our reports to the media.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I suggest that instead of sending the reports to the Oireachtas, perhaps it should be sent to the Joint Committee on Health and Children? If it comes to the Oireachtas it is laid in the library and before the Houses. Senator van Turnhout's point is that as the specialist committee, we should get it in tandem with the Oireachtas as well.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

We can certainly improve our communication in that regard.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am only deciphering what she was saying, but I cannot speak for her.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

Thank you. Let me clarify a point with Deputy Dowds. The Deputy mentioned the unfortunate complaint of the young man who was in a state of neglect. Was the complaint made to the Office of Ombudsman for Children?

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The complaint was made to the Garda Síochána because the social worker was not available at the time.

Obviously, I do not want to focus on that individual case, but I am curious to know the extent to which it is felt that when a complaint like that is made, it is satisfactorily resolved. That is my general question.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

Working with child protection complaints, we still see too many which are not satisfactorily resolved.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why is that? Is it lack of resources?

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

It is a range of things. Lack of resources is one part of it, but the system sometimes fails to allow for difficult cases. The majority of the work is straightforward, but it is a complicated area involving child care and different professionals. There are gaps between the support mechanisms social care workers may expect. There are all sorts of areas involved and some people stay within their silos, failing to support in a useful way. We are continuously and consistently receiving child protection complaints. That does not seem to be changing and we are not bringing down the numbers. The area still needs to be improved.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The silo mentality seems to be a recurring theme. I do not mean to be unfair to anybody.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

Inter-agency co-operation is still not as smooth as it should be. It is fair to say that whether one refers to it as a silo mentality or provides another reason. It is a recurring issue that we would like to see change. Even across governance, we nowadays talk about "corporate parenting", which is a term that has come in.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a strong section on governance in the meta-analysis on performance.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

It is the idea that the care of the child belongs across agencies. It is especially the case when one talks about residential services. The public service is the parent and it needs to be across all the agencies.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That comes across even today in the context of Tuam and elsewhere. It is the case that the State is the parent in lots of cases and we must never lose sight of that.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

We have found that the State has said one part of it is the parent. It has said the child protection section of the HSE is the only parent whereas it is also the Department of Education and Skills, the Department of Finance and the Department of Social Protection. This requires everyone to be the parent, which is what corporate parenting is. It is the whole entity looking after the child holistically as opposed to saying we have a Child and Family Agency and it is all on that. It needs to be much more co-operative.

Ms Deirdre O'Shea:

To clarify in terms of the complaints we receive regarding the actions of the Child and Family Agency, they tend to relate to issues we have represented generally in the reports we have put before the committee. That was part of the rationale for bringing those forward. A large number involve complaints regarding children in care and the service provision there. That is what prompted us to conduct the meta-analysis to look at overarching themes so that it would not be necessary to reinvestigate individual cases and to look at getting the underlying issues addressed in relation to that.

In terms of the handling of child protection concerns, we see complaints that relate to the length of time things take, non-responsiveness or difficulty in accessing those investigation or support services. In some ways, those were the key issues of concern that were raised in the context of the north Lee investigation. That is also part of the reason we are bringing that here. We are conscious of the increasing referral levels. It is about capacity to respond and applying the policy and procedures they have, which was raised through our Children First investigation.

We are examining those cases individually. If there are issues and areas in which we can identify improvements, we make recommendations. We see once we start to examine those cases that there is an improvement in terms of issues being resolved. We always take the opportunity to see how things could be improved and addressed better. It is important that HIQA's role on inspection is commenced. We are looking at individual cases, but the overall practice and how that is responded to is something in respect of which HIQA has an important role to play.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked about children in asylum centres. Can the ombudsman be in any way proactive in terms of checking out whether children in individual centres are at risk?

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

Currently, we do not have a shared understanding with the Department of Justice and Equality as to our remit within that arena. We receive a small number of complaints in that context and are continuously trying to work with asylum seekers' representative bodies to help them to bring forward complaints if necessary. We are engaging in this as often as possible and where necessary when complaints come forward. We must be careful not to go outside our remit, but we are very aware of the problems that have been highlighted. It is something we are working on proactively.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The ombudsman office can be proactive if it wants to be.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

Within a certain range of work that we can carry out.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. I have an asylum centre in my constituency and my impression from dealing with some of the asylum seekers is that they are loth to make complaints. Some of them come from very authoritarian dictatorships and they assume they will not be listened to. They feel it is very important, given that they are seeking asylum here, that they do not tread on anyone's toes. They are therefore slow to make complaints about anything. My impression from conversations with some asylum seekers is that the situation of some children in the centres is very difficult. They are not appropriate places for children to be for any length of time at all.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

I am aware at the moment that we have a case in being in the office and I must be careful not to prejudice anything by commenting. I am aware of what the Deputy is saying. I have heard those statements made before.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I got something concrete in terms of a complaint, presumably I would go through the regular services before approaching the ombudsman. The ombudsman is the last resort, presumably.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

Reference to local procedures is encouraged at all times. Once they are exhausted, there is a possibility of coming to our office. We look at each complaint on an individual basis.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So, if anyone was being proactive, it should be the HSE or a similar authority.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

It would depend on who was running the centre.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The centre is under the auspices of the Department of Justice and Equality.

Dr. Niall Muldoon:

Yes, that is where the complaint would need to go. I presume it would need to go to the centre manager and whatever local procedures are in place should be followed.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. Muldoon, Ms O'Shea and Ms Nikki Gallagher for today. I thank them for the engagement and apologise for the Dáil and Seanad divisions which caused members to have to leave. Other members are preparing for statements in the Dáil by the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. I hope we can arrange a meeting with the Ombudsman for Children prior to the summer recess.

Our meeting on Thursday will be in private session.