John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of this meeting is to engage with Mountain Rescue Ireland in respect of the difficulties faced by mountain rescue teams in carrying out their functions. I welcome Mr. Alan Carr, team leader at Galway Mountain Rescue; Mr. Christopher England, team leader at Dublin-Wicklow Mountain Rescue; Mr. Gerry Christie, training officer at Kerry Mountain Rescue and public relations officer at Mountain Rescue Ireland, and Mr. David Goddard, of Mourne Mountain Rescue and secretary of Mountain Rescue Ireland.
I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they will be entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statements they have submitted will be published on the committee's website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I call on Mr. Christie to make the opening presentation on behalf of Mountain Rescue Ireland.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

I thank the Chairman for sparing me the necessity of introducing my colleagues. Mountain Rescue Ireland, MRI, is a representative as opposed to a governing organisation. My three colleagues and I are actually involved in mountain rescue. We are not officials, administrators or elder lemons. I thank the committee for inviting us to come before it.

Mountain Rescue Ireland represents 12 teams comprising approximately 365 volunteers. Those figures are easy to remember if one thinks of the number of months and days in a year. Our teams are regionally based - as members can see from the map shown in the slide currently on screen - with the exception of the Search and Rescue Dog Association, SARDA, which is a countrywide organisation. In fairness, Mountain Rescue Ireland is an all-Ireland organisation. The highest point in Cavan also happens to be the highest point in Fermanagh so if one breaks one's leg while on Culcaigh Mountain, one could be rescued by a team from either jurisdiction.

We are not paid for the work we do. To paraphrase this Taoiseach, is this because we are worthless? The answer is "No"; it is because we are priceless. However, nothing comes without a price and that is why we are attending this meeting. Before I refer to the latter at greater length, I wish to examine on our core function. The latter is mountain search and rescue and this involves removing casualties from high, rough ground which ambulances cannot reach and which helicopters might occasionally reach but not when the weather is bad. We are an absolutely integral part of the 999-112 emergency infrastructure. In response to a parliamentary question tabled in 2011, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar - possibly unintentionally - intimated that we might be a dispensable appendage and that the Garda, the Civil Defence and the Coast Guard are all available to deal with circumstances where people get into trouble on mountains. I dispute that assertion. The next slide provides a nice shot of Magillycuddy's Reeks at 4.40 p.m. on a January evening. On such an evening, the helicopter would only have a further 20 minutes in which to operate before it became dark. The only way to get someone off one of the peaks in the mountains in question would be by means of manpower.

If members were to visit the Reeks today, they would hear the cuckoo singing. That is one of the highlights of May in the area. The State is not like the cuckoo; it does not lay its eggs in our nest and expect us to carry all the burden. The State supports us to a degree. Our level of basic State support is €111,111. We also receive a development grant of €60,000 and a Pobal insurance grant for the same amount. The amount of the latter is shown in italics because that is not a sustainable arrangement going forward. The grant used to come from the Department of the Taoiseach and was in the amount of €75,000. It has been reduced to some degree and is not, as stated, sustainable. That fact will have to be addressed quite soon. In total, the State gives us €231,000 per year. We appreciate this funding but we need more because, as I already indicated, nothing comes without a price.

Photographs relating to mountain rescues often show people being taken down extreme vertical cliffs on ropes or being carried out in military formation across flat ground. The truth is somewhat in between. The slide on screen shows an actual rescue and, as members can see, it involves manhandling people across rough, steep slippery ground. One must have balance and be strong in order to participate in a rescue. Ours is an all-male deputation but there are females involved in mountain rescue. However, we do not have a gender balance as only 5% to 10% of our members are women.

The ultimate goal of mountain rescue is to locate the person who is injured. With the advent of smart phones, this has become somewhat easier. As a recent tragedy in Mayo illustrated, however, it can take days to find a person who dies in the mountains. If the person one is rescuing is not dead, one must stabilise him or her. All mountain rescuers have extensive first aid skills and are trained up to remote emergency care, REC, level 4, which is quite a high standard. We are not cleared to administer drugs but that may change in the coming years. Our main role is to evacuate casualties. On a cloudy day or in the dark it can take six or eight hours to carry somebody out on a stretcher. That is what we do and we are happy to do it. We do not ask payment for that and the members of the current generation of mountain rescuers are unlikely to request payment.

We are obliged to fund-raise in order to finance some of our operations. Fund-raising by means of a pub quiz - as shown on the next slide - sounds like fun but I have also stood outside church gates and on the streets of Kerry seeking money from members of the public.

It is not the best use of my time. To return to mountain rescue, it is high-level, in all senses of the word. We operate at a high level in the context of height but we also pride ourselves on being very professional. We are a community-based emergency rescue organisation. Administratively, we do not seem to be specifically owned by any one person. In effect, we are dangling. We are funded by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport via the Irish Coast Guard and we are tasked by the Garda, which reports to the Department of Justice and Equality.

I believe the Pobal grant comes from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. We are also dangling between the present and the past, which is full of glorious certainties. The photograph I show is from the 1960s and those noble gentlemen are now in their 70s or 80s. Life was much simpler then. They probably had no view on technology or the idea that one could hold something in one’s hand that would allow one to communicate with the world or even argue with strangers one had never met. The future is much less certain; it is hard to know what is going to happen, but we do know that Ireland is positioning itself as an adventure destination for walking and climbing. We have the Wild Atlantic Way, which is probably tarmac-based, but it gives a flavour of how Ireland is positioning itself. Walkers bring €500 million per annum into the economy - twice the amount brought in by fishing and golf combined. These people bring in a lot of money. They come from abroad and they expect the rescue infrastructure to be on a par with their home countries – Germany, France or wherever. In the past 12 months I have dealt with two casualties from Japan and one from Korea. We are dealing with a truly international market.

Some people will speculate that the future is all about technology. The photograph of the helicopter that members can see was taken very late in the evening. It is leaving the scene because it is dark. Technology will appear and it will be very welcome, but at that time of night it disappears. The Air Corps has night-flying capacity, but access to the Air Corps at the moment seems to be caught up to some degree in red tape. In fairness, the Coast Guard helicopter gives sterling support, but often it is not there. Sometimes we have a combined operation in which it lifts us up under the clouds; we go up and get the casualty and bring him or her down and then he or she is airlifted out. It is technology with a big "T" and muscle with a small "m". But there are days when all one has is skilled muscle. In white-out conditions in winter, helicopters do not go to the top of mountains, and nobody other than skilled mountaineers can do the job. The non-mountaineering fraternity will not be trained. That is simply not credible and will not happen.

A steady upward climb in activity is evident. In 2009, there was extensive flooding late in the year which then generated frost and snow. In 2010, we had two winters. Mountain rescue teams give humanitarian support within their own communities when the weather is particularly severe. Ignoring those years, one sees a steady upward climb in activity.

Last year the State got a total of 20 years from the 365 volunteers. That is 20 years of unpaid work. For each volunteer that breaks down to two and a half weeks. Roughly speaking, that is a week on rescue, a week on training and half a week on fund-raising. I wish to dwell on fund-raising. Half a week on fund-raising is 20 working hours. Of the 20 working hours one spends fund-raising, four and a half are for the Revenue Commissioners, because if one buys an item of rescue equipment in Ireland for terrestrial or land-based rescue, VAT applies at 23%. If it is for water-based rescue, VAT does not apply. It is seriously important to achieve equity. We are all at sea in that respect. We need parity of esteem. We need VAT reform. I do not know whether it is a domestic decision or a European decision. I am a mountain rescuer; I am not an expert on tax or governing a country.

The other really important issue is insurance. That is probably the one thing that is likely to bring down the voluntary house of cards. Insurance, nationally, comes in at €99,949.99, which is not much less than €100,000. We get a grant from Pobal of €60,000, which is unsustainable. Teams have to come up with the balance, which is a lot of money. The insurance covers team members should they suffer an injury and it is also liability insurance should we be sued by somebody we have rescued. To my knowledge, the latter scenario has never happened.

The final necessity is capital funding. The Minister has intimated that capital funding might be available. Capital funding in the context of mountain rescue is what we are looking at. We are looking at vehicles - not necessarily Land Rovers, but certainly vehicles of that ilk - and we are looking at bases. Not all teams have bases. South Eastern Mountain Rescue Association, SEMRA, recently fitted out a base in Clonmel that I think it got from the local authority, but the fitting-out costs incurred VAT of €18,500. One hand giveth and the other hand taketh away.

I do not believe there is a crock of gold at the end of the rainbow, but I would like to think there is silver - certainly a silver lining - and I would like to think the silver lining would be evident in the immediate future. It is said that eaten bread is soon forgotten, but promised bread never really arrives either. One positive note is that the International Commission for Alpine Rescue will hold its global international conference in Killarney. This year the event is at Lake Tahoe in the United States. In fairness, Fáilte Ireland has given us enormous assistance. It is a feather in the country’s cap and a feather in the cap of Mountain Rescue Ireland, MRI. We look forward to the conference. I understand the committee will have a representative of Fáilte Ireland before it this afternoon and members might be able to further explore the concept of Ireland as an adventure destination and the expectations that go with that. My final slide summarises everything I have said. The stakeholders must support the pyramid. Committee members are the stakeholders. On that note, I invite questions.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Christie very much. He gave a very focused and informative presentation. When I was contacted by Mr. Carr on behalf of Mountain Rescue Ireland, we discussed the matter. We are delighted to have the group before us. It does hugely valuable work. It is incredible that MRI gets so little support. This is an ideal opportunity to highlight the issues. I am delighted to allow MRI to do that on behalf of the committee. Sometimes, certain functions that are performed in the State can be taken for granted. I hope we can influence some changes in the area.

I am conscious that the Seanad is starting at 10.30 a.m. With the agreement of everybody, I will allow Senators Mooney and Brennan to speak first. I thank all members.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I endorse the Chairman’s welcome. I believe I speak for everybody in saying that what Mountain Rescue Ireland does is valued. I do not believe it is at all undervalued. Anybody who is near a mountain range is aware of the existence of mountain search and rescue teams. I live in Drumshanbo, County Leitrim, where there is an annual church gate collection. I presume it happens nationwide and that it brings in a certain amount of money.

It seems to me that a great deal of the emphasis in the presentation has been on the lack of funding or resources. We are all familiar with advertising campaigns broadcast on television and radio during the summer months relating to water safety and swimming. Is Mountain Rescue Ireland behind the curve in marketing its safety message in that regard? Has it considered getting a sponsor for the organisation? Would an insurance company, for example, provide a trade-off for its name being used in the organisation's title in exchange for the cost of insurance cover, which obviously seems to be a major issue?

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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I live at the foot of Slieve Foy, in the Cooley Mountains, and when I wake up every morning, I look over at the Mourne Mountains on the shores of Carlingford Lough. Therefore, I am very conscious of the contribution MRI makes in rescuing people in both areas. Mr. Christie said it was an all-Ireland rescue team. What is the contribution North and South? I look north and I see the Mourne Mountains. I live at the foot of the Cooley Mountains, which are approximately 2,000 feet high. The witness mentioned walkers from European countries and throughout the world, and there are beautiful walks on the Cooley Mountains.

I am baffled that sea and river rescue equipment is VAT-free while equipment used by mountain rescue volunteers is subject to VAT at 23%. Is that correct?

Mr. Gerry Christie:

Yes.

Terry Brennan (Fine Gael)
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It baffles me. We are talking about two volunteer organisations, one working at sea and in rivers and the other working on the mountains. Does MRI have difficulty recruiting volunteers? Without volunteers in whatever field - be it credit unions, soccer and rugby teams or anything else - this country could not operate properly. Without volunteers, the representatives could not operate. They are not getting sufficient funding. I would not like to see a country that did not have sea and mountain rescuers. I asked about the co-operation between North and South. I do not know what would be the nearest mountain rescue team to me. I admire the all-Ireland approach. Mr. Christie might answer those questions. I would agree with Mr. Christie that the team is unpaid and priceless.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

I can clarify that we are not a homogenous nationwide team. With regard to Slieve Foy, I am sure my colleague, Mr. Goddard, has often come down from County Down and rescued people in Carlingford, and I imagine Mr. England was with him. The Border is meaningless in the context of rescue. It does not exist.

I will answer the Senator's questions as best I can and if any of my colleagues want to assist me, they should feel free to do so. We have no problems attracting volunteers for rescue. We do have problems when we tell volunteers that they are on collection duty in the local street or shopping centre on a Saturday afternoon.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

That does not give them the same buzz. It is important to reiterate also that while, if a donor puts €5 into the RNLI tub, that €5 is for the RNLI, if the donor puts €5 into the mountain rescue collection in Drumshanbo, which was mentioned - that was probably Sligo Mountain Rescue-----

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it was.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

-----and the organisation buys something with that, more than €1 goes back to the Revenue Commissioners. However, that point has been reasonably well made.

With regard to a safety message, each team is autonomous. Dublin, Wicklow, Galway and Down will put out their own safety messages in their own areas. In Kerry, every year before Christmas we put out a seasonal safety message, because about ten years ago a number of tragedies occurred on the mountains over what was called the festive season.

We had not thought about approaching a corporate entity for a type of subsidy. Personally, I believe that brings a range of corporate responsibilities. We are very independent-minded volunteers, and we value that independence. I would be wary of the responsibilities that might result from that, but if a company wants to subsidise safety, that would be welcome. It is important to state, however, that a safety message will not stop something from happening. Climbing mountains is risky, but sitting in front of a keyboard all day and not doing exercise is also risky. The risks are different. Life is not free of risk. I do not know if there is anything-----

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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If I may ask a brief supplementary question, why would Mr. Christie be defensive about corporate subsidies? For example, various charities have vehicles sponsored by companies. Mr. Christie made reference to not having a sufficient number of Land Rovers.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

Yes.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Surely it would be a consideration for his organisation-----

Mr. Gerry Christie:

We have vehicles already sponsored. I am sorry. I was thinking of national sponsorship from a specific organisation.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the question in the context of Mr. Christie's emphasis on the lack of financial resources. Also, I was curious that church gate collections would be subject to VAT.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

No. We do not pay VAT on the collection but, for instance, if we buy a vacuum mattress to stabilise the spine of an injured person, it will cost approximately €1,000 and attract VAT at 23%, which is another €230.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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That applies to everybody. The source of the organisation's funding is not VAT-rated.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

No. I am sorry. If I implied that, it was inadvertent. It does not apply to water-based rescue. If an organisation buys rescue equipment, it does not pay VAT at 23%.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I see. That is interesting.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does anyone else want to comment?

Mr. Alan Carr:

Mountain rescue teams are composed of volunteers, but there is another element to that. They are an emergency response volunteer service. They are tasked by the 999 service, and because they are a 999 service the service must be sufficient to the job it sets out to do. In recent years each team has, at a national level, sought corporate assistance and so on, with mixed success. However, it is an important principle that a 999 emergency response service should not be dependent on a successful, or unsuccessful, fund-raising campaign, especially when the State is investing in bringing tourists into the country.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the gentleman for attending this morning. I represent the constituency of Sligo-North Leitrim. I am fairly familiar with mountain rescue in the area and know many of the volunteers. I met with the team four or five weeks ago because they were aware this hearing was taking place and they wanted to mark my cards, so to speak.

I do not have any questions because I understand the value of what the representatives do. It does not make any sense that we insist on charging VAT on the essential products the volunteers need to carry out their work. I am a great believer in the maxim that we should always try to make it easy for people to do the right thing. The representatives are doing the right thing, and VAT is penalising them for doing the right thing. It does not make sense to charge VAT on those products and I will be pushing for this committee to recommend to Government that VAT be removed from the products they use.

The second major issue raised by MRI is that it does not have a home Department. It operates an emergency service, responding to 999 calls. Pobal is funding them this year but perhaps not next year. Mr. Christie stated that the funding was not sustainable.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

Yes.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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He is probably talking about a type of home Department.

Such a Department would take responsibility - if not ownership - in order that the mountain rescue teams can plan into the future. They would have a degree of security, which would enable them to continue working into the future. I ask Mr. Christie to develop this point. Which Department would Mountain Rescue Ireland, MRI, envisage to be such a home Department?

Mr. Gerry Christie:

Possibly the Department-----

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Second, would Mountain Rescue Ireland be obliged to make compromises? At present, the mountain rescue team members are volunteers and no one gets paid. However, they would be working among paid individuals, who would be drawing on the teams' expertise, experience, equipment and willingness to do this work. Might this have an adverse impact on the voluntary nature of the service the teams provide?

Mr. Gerry Christie:

I would not think so. At present, the only paid people with whom we interface operationally are the Coast Guard helicopter crews and members of the Garda. I am making no comment here but we normally see the Garda at the end of the tarmac and that works perfectly fine. Once we go into the wilderness, we interface with the helicopter. As for which Department, to me the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport seems to be the obvious place. However, I am not fixated on who owns us. At present, we seem to dangle between many Departments. It is immaterial who owns us as long as it has an adequate budget to run the service. That is the important thing. It is not the badge; it is the bank account.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the deputation from MRI for their attendance and for highlighting the work MRI does. It is important that it be highlighted in public debate, as is happening here this morning. I come from County Waterford, am very conscious of the work done by mountain rescue teams and note the South Eastern Mountain Rescue Association and the Tramore Cliff and Mountain Rescue Association operate in my region. Mr. Christie mentioned the Coast Guard and the search and rescue operations that take place - especially in my area - operate very well and efficiently. The organisations that run these operations are due many thanks. I also am conscious that, as Mr. Christie mentioned and others have noted, the efforts are voluntary in the main. The mountain rescue teams do it because they almost have a vocation or a passion for it. However, such passion should not be abused in any way and I certainly hope it is not. Similarly, I am sure MRI will agree there are many other organisations within the community with which the witnesses probably interact, such as the Irish Red Cross, the RNLI, the volunteer Coast Guard units and the river rescue teams, all of which do similar work within communities to that of MRI. When an emergency is called, they turn out and help citizens in a positive way.

That said, I also am interested in the VAT issue. The purpose of this meeting is to try to find ways to help the mountain rescue teams and the other organisations I listed, all of which also are emergency response groups. I find it anomalous that some groups are entitled to a VAT rebate or do not pay VAT initially for safety and search equipment. Can the witnesses explain how this operates? Is the VAT taken off at the outset or do the beneficiaries get a rebate once the equipment has been bought? Are the witnesses aware of how that works?

Mr. Gerry Christie:

In respect of water rescue, I am not aware as to whether one pays and reclaims or if VAT is just not imposed in the first instance. I simply am aware that we pay it.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That may be an issue the joint committee can explore further for the benefit of the mountain rescue groups and the others I mentioned.

On the mountain rescue teams' equipment, Mr. Christie indicated they are on a 999 alert system and so I presume MRI has a computer system or an alert system that is compatible with the emergency services. The witnesses might clarify who pays for, provides or maintains that system. As for the basic equipment that all mountain rescue team members require, I am sure they all have personal equipment they maintain and manage themselves. Is there communal equipment the team members then share, such as more complicated equipment in the form of stretchers, lines, shackles or whatever? The witnesses might outline how this is funded at present or how mountain rescue groups share their resources.

I also mentioned the support Mountain Rescue Ireland gets from the Coast Guard and the search and rescue helicopters. Much Government investment has gone into this area and I note a new fleet of helicopters has been commissioned and put into service, which I am sure MRI welcomes. The fleet of helicopters contains a lot of additional technology that will assist all rescues. However, I also appreciate the helicopters cannot go everywhere and they need the man or woman on the ground. The reason I raise this point is Mr. Christie mentioned the Air Corps, which also is a resource. However, he mentioned there was some red tape in respect of engaging the Air Corps. Are the witnesses in a position to explain this point further to members or what is the problem in that regard? Finally, as I mentioned the Air Corps, I also refer to interaction with or supports from the Army. I presume or expect the State has exceptional resources in that area. Could the Army be of assistance to MRI in any way or is it already of assistance to the mountain rescue teams in respect of training, assistance and other supports? The witnesses might answer these general questions.

Mr. Christopher England:

I will kick off with the first few of the Deputy's questions. As to how we are tasked, the tasking for mountain rescues is through the 999-112 system. An injured person or someone who is concerned about a lost person makes a 999 call and requests the assistance of mountain rescue. That call is managed by An Garda Síochána, which then will task the local team in the area concerned. Consequently, if someone is lost in the Wicklow mountains, the Garda will task the Dublin-Wicklow and the Glen of Imaal mountain rescue teams. If a person is lost in County Kerry, the Kerry Mountain Rescue Team will get the local page. It comes out through a text system and on to the team organisation. From there, we then make contact, get the details of the call and then operate and manage the entire search, recovery and transportation back out thereafter. We then close the loop on those communications back to An Garda Síochána by giving it a brief update as the operation is ongoing and close it off to say it is complete, it all has been handed over and what are the details.

In respect of the Deputy's question on equipment, most teams will provide the baseline personal protective equipment, PPE, which will include waterproof jackets, over-trousers and helmets as a base minimum. That is what we aspire towards. Everything else they wear, including their base layers, trousers, fleeces and hats is all personally bought. Probably the biggest and most important items to wear when going onto the mountain are one's boots and people as individuals will buy those and replace them themselves. The rest of the rescue equipment, such as the stretchers, ropes, land rovers and specialist medical equipment is all centrally purchased by each of the teams and each team manages its own equipment. The teams will consider the long-term replacement of that equipment, which comes out of our funding. Part of the funding comes to replace team members' jackets and helmets, right through to ropes, carabiners and major purchases of Land Rovers and so on.

As for helicopters, new Coast Guard machines have just been rolled out nationwide and we have seen great use for helicopters from the old Sikorsky helicopters right through to the new ones. They are an invaluable tool on many occasions. The difficulty we have is they fly under restricted services because of the environment of safety under which they work. When the cloud comes down, they cannot fly in the mountains. They primarily are marine-operated machines and coming into the mountains is a different environment for them. They are very big, have a hard down-wash and a range of safety factors comes with them. When one is on a steep cliff, the last thing one wants is to have a helicopter sitting right over one's head with a heavy down-wash that potentially could blow someone off a cliff. Consequently, we also must consider this point when we task a helicopter, to make sure it is safe both for our people on the ground and for the crew when they come in. Ultimately, the pilot will make his or her own judgment on whether to come in but I must state they are a valuable tool. When used, they are a valuable tool and we thank the Coast Guard for its services in that regard. It is very good.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Do the rescue teams ever need to use helicopters to get on to the mountains or do they always go in by land and then----

Mr. Christopher England:

Both. Where possible, if we can, we will ask the helicopter to lift us up onto the mountain. That has happened and continues to happen. Again, that call is made by the aircrew that is managing the machine. It will know the tolerances of its helicopter.

As for Air Corps red tape, there are existing relationships between the Air Corps and the Coast Guard helicopter. The primary setting is that the Coast Guard helicopter is the primary rescue helicopter for these islands. I say "islands" because the Coast Guard helicopter from Dublin also serves Northern Ireland. Moreover, the other machine comes up from the County Donegal side right through into north County Derry. As backup to that, if one of those machines has a technical fault or is out at sea, for example, there is a secondary standby whereby we can ask for the assistance of the Air Corps. However, the primary use is of the Coast Guard helicopters.

We continue to train with them and ensure that the crews understand us and we understand them. It is useful on many occasions because they have night-flying capabilities where they can transport us up onto the hill in hours of darkness, but as they become busier with their main primary role of military transport, that use is declining.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Does Mountain Rescue Ireland organise its own training for new volunteers? For example, is there any interaction with the Army? Is that resource of any use?

Mr. Christopher England:

The Army is busy with its own primary roles. We interact, particularly in my area, where we have the Glen of Imaal and we have to interact with them. We have a good relationship with the folks in the glen and the commandant down there has been useful, but when walkers stray, for example, into the impact area, it is an Army issue. It is not for a civilian mountain rescuer to go into that area.

The primary use of where we would seek the assistance of the Army is in prolonged long-term issues, for example, prolonged periods of snow where we might have to call upon its assistance for additional four-wheel drive capacity or when we have large searches where we can bring the Army in. It takes a day or two to gather all the troops in and get the relevant persons in place, if one has a prolonged search. If one looks at most mountain rescue incidents, they are three or four hours long and, as for trying to mobilise an Army unit in that time, it just does not happen.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. England.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The final two members who want to ask questions are Deputies O'Donovan and Ó Cuív.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Anyone who watches the RTE programme on emergency and rescue services will probably get a better insight into the work of mountain rescue. I am not from a mountainous county but we have low uplands, in Ballyhoura and Mullaghareirk.

In the area, there is a response organisation. Following a missing young person case a number of years ago in the Abbeyfeale area, there came about the Abbeyfeale and District Search and Rescue. Subsequently, there was the establishment of Foynes and District Search and Rescue, a voluntary organisation which acts as a support to the State agencies on the Shannon Estuary from a water point of view. Unfortunately, in the recent past, search and rescue staff and volunteers have been confronted more than ever by the spectre of those going missing, in some cases in the process of dying by suicide. In my area, on the banks of the River Shannon, this has been a significant issue for the voluntary services, from Limerick city and Bunratty, down into Foynes, Ballybunion and elsewhere, looking for and trying to retrieve those who have tragically died by suicide. Anybody who in any way can assist the families of loved ones who have gone out and taken their own lives, or lost their lives, either from a cliff face in Ballybunion, in the water at Ringmoylan in Pallaskenry or wherever, should be applauded for the fantastic work that they do. I have seen it at first hand myself where volunteers take time off of work to walk the shoreline or go out in rigid inflatable boats, RIBs, with the sole purpose of, where possible, rescue or recovery.

I understand that Mountain Rescue Ireland is primarily focused on mountain rescue. What relationship does it have with those organisations carrying out important work in serving areas not necessarily a certain level above sea level, whether due to persons who got lost through dementia, as occurred in my area in bogs, in some cases for weeks or those who would have gone away with the intent of not coming back? Do they see any pathway towards making such services present in other communities, not only those of a mountainous nature?

I can understand that the risk level is much higher in their case because mountains attract those of all levels of experience. One obvious case is Croagh Patrick in the Chairman's constituency, which I have climbed on a good few occasions. One sees every shape and make of person going up and down that mountain and one would wonder how some of them manage to do it. Some of them run it barefoot, which is a fair achievement. I wonder what kind of relationship Mountain Rescue Ireland would have with organisations across the country that are not necessarily servicing the mountainous areas. I acknowledge, and thank them for, the work that they do.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We are hardy people in Mayo.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Fierce hardy.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I join in the welcome to Mountain Rescue Ireland and also commend the fantastic contribution of the volunteers. We all should recognise that all of this work is done on a volunteer basis - one can be called out at any hour of the day and night in any weather, and once one signs up for this, one is expected to go.

We should look at this in the wider context. Over the past ten years, the State has promoted hill-walking, hill-climbing and rural recreation as a major tourism growth area. We have also encouraged our population, with all the challenges of obesity, etc., to get more active and get out in the great outdoors, particularly on the mountains. I note that the figures for tourists stating that walking was an important part of their holiday were as low as 200,000 at their lowest approximately ten years and they have risen above 800,000. The Department and the Government have ambitions to grow those numbers and it is a significant source of revenue.

One must accept that where there are more hill-walkers, there will be more accidents, some of which are unavoidable. They will happen anyway and the one question the mountain rescue teams will not ask before they get them down off the mountain is whether they could have avoided it. If the State is serious about growing this sector, we must see mountain rescue as a necessary adjunct to that sector. One cannot have increasing numbers of hill-walkers without having comprehensive mountain rescue services. Those on the mountain, coming from other jurisdictions, will expect as of right that there would be somebody to take them down if they get into trouble.

The question is - who pays? In the past, all of us have faced the difficulty of joining an organisation to do something only to find we spend most of our time collecting funds. Most of us would rather get on with the business of the organisation. That is true in the case of mountain rescue, that one joins to give of one's time, effort, training and everything to go up the mountains to rescue hill-walkers and it is not good to find that one is spending a lot of time shaking a bucket. We should look at other rescue services. For example, the Coast Guard has been mentioned here, and, of course, we mentioned the helicopters. However, the other part of the Coast Guard is voluntary. Those Coast Guard members, with the boats around the coast, are volunteers but everything is paid for by the State because it is a State service. Civil Defence is a State service. Here, again, nobody expects the Civil Defence to shake a bucket outside the church because it is the State's service. The Red Cross is a voluntary organisation, not a State one, but it is very much a creature of the State. Quite rightly, there is funding given to the Order of Malta and to all of these services because they all are needed. The RNLI is fairly unique. Because of its long history and because it covers both Ireland and Britain, it probably has one of the most efficient fund-raising machines, and full-time offices, etc., to that end. It is unique, but we must recognise here also that it is a voluntary service and it has access to the funds.

We should consider this structurally. Is funding given by the Northern Ireland Executive to the northern part of the organisation? If so, who gives it? The delegates might provide information on that. The issue of an ongoing revenue stream must be tackled. The organisation was funded previously under the community and voluntary organisations heading. That is where the Pobal funding came from. One had to bid for that funding. It lasted for three years, and then one started again without certainty that one would win the lottery the next time. This committee needs to approach a Department and ask it to take the lead on this. In that regard, it would be very useful to get the view of Comhairle na Tuaithe on the extent to which it regards mountain rescue as part of its work in developing the whole hillwalking scene. I hope this committee, of which I am not a member, will follow this issue up with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport.

Fáilte Ireland is represented on Comhairle na Tuaithe. I understand its representatives will be coming here today to examine the schedule. The view of Fáilte Ireland on the number of foreign tourists and revenue attracted by hillwalking is that hillwalking is much more significant than golf and angling.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The new chairman designate of Fáilte Ireland is the individual we will be interviewing. We hear all the presentations and answers to questions. At a future meeting, a private one, we will discuss this. It is clear there is a lot of support for what the delegates do. That will be reflected in our discussions. It is important to realise that what we can do is make recommendations and try to influence policy. We do not make the decisions. I wish to be very clear on that.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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As the Chairman knows, I will not be privy to the private discussion.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has made his views very clear.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Fáilte Ireland is on Comhairle na Tuaithe and I understand it has had a preliminary meeting. It is important to obtain the view of Comhairle na Tuaithe on the importance of the work.

I hope the Department of Finance can give legal certainty on whether the proposal regarding VAT is possible. If there is a legal impediment at present short of an EU change of law, that is fine. If there is not, it would be a huge boon if the bill for everything bought could be reduced by 23%.

From living in an area with plenty of mountains and hills and my experience of the huge amount of work done, I believe the current set of circumstances is unsustainable. We need to recognise that the delegates do not just comprise a group of volunteers engaged in a voluntary capacity but a group providing a service that the State needs urgently if we are to continue to develop rural recreation in the mountains.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

Mr. David Goddard will answer the question on what happens in the northern part of our wonderful island.

Mr. David Goddard:

Just recently there has been a strategic review of all search and rescue operations on land in the North. The final report is due for publication in the next few weeks. This was brought about by devolution. The responsibilities for search and rescue in the North are now the responsibility of the Executive. The authorities are trying to sort all that out.

Mountain rescue has been slightly separate. It came under the Northern Ireland Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure from a sporting context. Our funding stream came through that. Traditionally, we received £75,000 per year, of which 50% was taken off for administration. Therefore, the two mountain rescue teams, in the South and North, and cave rescue, which has not been mentioned, received £40,000 per year. We also had sporadic access to some sort of capital funding. The outcome of the strategic review is that the lead Department will become the Department of Justice. This is leading us into closer alignment with the PSNI. We are seen as an asset of the PSNI in the same way as Mountain Rescue Ireland is regarded as an asset by the Garda.

Several other organisations have been mentioned. An aspect we must consider when we talk about missing persons and injured people is the possibility of a crime scene. One must have a very close relationship with the policing forces to enable one to operate at that sort of level. The required trust must exist. The mountain rescue service has built that trust up over the years such that the Garda and PSNI are willing to allow us to take part in a search. On the other hand, organisations that do not have crime scene training are a bit reluctant to get involved.

The problem is very much approaching bursting point. The number of calls has doubled over the past ten years, not because people are engaging in more dangerous activities but simply because the number of participants has been increasing. Therefore, we are getting more calls to mountain areas. We are also getting calls from the Garda, the HSE and ambulance services to assist in remote-area evacuations and recoveries because these organisations do not have the specialist equipment to carry people over rough terrain. We are called because the services are being put under pressure. If anything goes wrong, they are put under the spotlight so they have to ensure that they use the best-available resources in the circumstances. We are now getting calls from many mountain bikers because mountain bike trails have been opened. Many mountain bike accidents are occurring. We have to deal with these because we are the only people with the required stretchers, ropes, etc., to get the bikers out of very rough terrain. One cannot expect a HSE ambulance to carry somebody down a steep hill; one needs specialist equipment. We are the only ones who have it.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

Mr. Goddard mentioned mountain bikers. Deputy O’Donovan mentioned Ballyhoura, which is currently a mecca for them. Have there been accidents there? I am not aware of any.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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On Sunday night, I was watching a preview of the programme that is to be aired next week. It showed the helicopter airlifting somebody from Ballhoura. The area has a very good reputation. My point was not necessarily on the mountain bike trails but on people entering low uplands with bogs, bog holes and very soft conditions underfoot. People go off the trail and get lost and become disorientated. Mr. Christie’s organisation focuses primarily on the Wicklow Mountains and Kerry mountains. What relationship does it have with those in the low uplands?

Mr. Gerry Christie:

The establishment of Abbeyfeale rescue service was mentioned. Members of Kerry Mountain Rescue Team co-operated and provided it with search expertise. Generally there is a demarcation in that it looks after people who disappear on farmland. It is correct to state that sometimes these people actually mean to disappear. Sadly, it is a frequent occurrence in Kerry that people choose quite rough, inaccessible areas to commit suicide, and the Garda tasks the mountain rescue team to find them. The demarcation is between farmland and much rougher, inaccessible land.

Beyond that we would not have a whole lot of ongoing interaction with them.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Carr want to comment?

Mr. Alan Carr:

I will just develop the question for Deputy O'Donovan. In terms of who were are and what do, we respond to emergencies. We regularly get requests from the Garda for what would be considered low-land searching. Depending on the needs, it could be for difficult terrain, night searching or search management. Therefore, in a multi-agency approach, there is interaction at an emergency level. Beyond that, in terms of organisational interaction, it is important to point out that we are volunteers. If there is a casualty - often, it is a tourist - we commit to train and rescue them. We also commit to doing as much fund-raising as possible to maintain that service. Beyond the emergency response, it becomes hard for volunteers to fill those gaps.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Given the previous contributions, would it be fair to say that there is no overall national umbrella structure for all the search and rescue people? Is there any one point of contact at Government level?

Mr. Gerry Christie:

The Garda Síochána and the NCC.

Mr. Christopher England:

There is a National Co-ordinating Committee, NCC, for search and rescue which is chaired by An Garda Síochána. It covers mountain rescue, the coastguard and cave rescue. That is the national level of co-ordination. Beyond that, when one gets into urban searches-----

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Is their role primarily for when an emergency is called or are they there to ensure there is continuous training and development?

Mr. Christopher England:

Their role is not operational; it is more of a non-operational, organisational type of structure, ensuring that there is good co-ordination between the coastguard, mountain rescue, cave rescue and An Garda Síochána. That ensures that when an incident occurs there are lines of communication already established to do that, and to see if additional training or streams of funding can be put in place.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Has a drill operation or training exercise been carried out recently?

Mr. Christopher England:

Teams train themselves internally.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Nationally, under the auspices of the Garda Síochána?

Mr. Christopher England:

I would have trained Dublin-Wicklow and the Glen of Imaal teams in Wicklow. We trained with our local gardaí last year. We ran a major local exercise with them, including the HSE, An Garda Síochána, Civil Defence as observers and mountain rescue. That was to ensure that people understand the personalities and also how each of them works, as well as the benefits and pros and cons of each one. In that way, we can understand how they work together. That was very successful.

Deputy Ó Cuív commented on increased numbers of walkers using the hills. I was team leader of the Dublin-Wicklow mountain rescue group and last year we had 109 call-out operations for a voluntary organisation of 42 members. We will be 30 years old this year, but we still do not have a base. Those operations were run out of the back of a Transit van.

The operations ranged from multi-day searches for missing persons - unfortunately, a lot of them were suicide victims - right through to live tourist casualties getting lost in clouds and snow. A large number of people got stuck in snow in upland areas. I joined the mountain rescue service 14 years ago when, traditionally, the majority of calls were on a Sunday afternoon. One could almost set the clock by the 3.30 p.m. call-out. In more recent years, along with marketing Ireland as a tourist destination, we have seen not just an increase in the number of calls but also an increase in when they come. They are no longer spread across Sunday afternoons but can happen on any day of the week. Last Thursday, I was on a call-out for an injured walker on a Thursday afternoon when I should have been at work. The Friday before that I happened to be on a day off and Kerry mountain rescue were out at 6 o'clock on a Friday morning to search for, and treat, an injured walker.

As a voluntary organisation, we are not just seeing numbers increasing, but such incidents can now happen on any day of the week when our volunteers are asked to respond. On top of that, I am asking them to go out and shake a bucket on Sundays. It can put a lot of stress on their work and family time. That is a major difficulty when we are trying to train, rescue, do our own daily work and have some family time. If one of those burdens - the fund-raising element - could be taken off us, it would be of massive assistance to mountain rescue.

Mr. David Goddard:

Can I add to that?

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Mr. David Goddard:

We are 100% volunteers. We are not paid volunteers, such as the coastguard. We receive no call-out fees. It costs us money to do a rescue. As an individual, I have to pay for my own petrol to get to the call-out. If I miss work, I lose a day's pay. We have been compared to a number of national voluntary charitable organisations such as the Red Cross. Those are large organisations which all have full-time, paid employees whose primary function is fund-raising. We do not have that capacity and cannot afford it. We are all 100% volunteers. In order for me to take on the role as national secretary and do the job justice, I had to retire. I am now in a position to give my time to that.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Goddard is painting an amazing picture and a very honourable one. I assume that it presents many obstacles for him. Before concluding, I would like to ask a few questions. I was seeking figures for hoax calls to the emergency services last year, including the ambulance and fire brigade services. I was stunned by the figures. Does Mr. Christie's organisation receive many hoax calls? The nature of his work is that he has to respond, so are there many hoax calls? If so, has anyone been prosecuted? I could not find any record of anyone being prosecuted for hoax calls to the various emergency services.

As regards recruitment, Mr. Goddard said he would lose a day's pay if he was on a call-out and he had to buy his own equipment. Does that effectively mean that people approach the organisation or are people actively recruited? It seems to me that only fairly well-off people could buy their own equipment. People in certain jobs would not be able to do mountain rescue work, so it seems to be very restrictive.

Is there a limit on the length of time people spend in mountain rescue work? Is there a retirement age or, if not, how does that work out?

Charity status was mentioned earlier on. Of what benefit is charity status? My understanding of charity is that if people make donations they get some tax rebate. Has the mountain rescue service raised money in that way and is the charity status of benefit in any other way besides that?

Mr. Gerry Christie:

I will start with the hoax calls. Kerry Mountain Rescue has never had what could be called mischievous hoax call-outs. There is a goat somewhere near Carrauntoohil that can sound very like a person crying for help. There has been confusion in that regard but it cannot be classified as a hoax. I am not sure if other teams have received hoax calls. To stage a hoax call on a mountain, one would have to go pretty far from home and hoaxers normally do not have that much initiative.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is good to hear, because I was stunned by the figures for the other emergency services.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

I do not think it is a huge issue. Has it been a problem for Dublin-Wicklow?

Mr. Christopher England:

I think we had one last year and it is a long time since I can remember any others. We only had one last year and it was found out quickly. It was clear that they were not on a mountain.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

I will let Mr. England take the question on recruitment.

Mr. Christopher England:

We have had both. Last year, we ran a recruitment drive with advertisements in the walking press and on our Facebook page and website. From that, we had 120 applications to join the team. We whittled that down to the seven who eventually joined the team. We have no great problem with recruitment. It is retention that we have a problem with to be fair. That comes from the level of commitment required and the expense. Recruitment is easy and retention is difficult.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

Regarding a time limit, even I am over 60. Apparently, insurers will not insure volunteer rescuers over the age of 85. We do not anticipate still being involved at that stage. Regarding charitable status, I will let Mr. Goddard say a few words.

Mr. David Goddard:

All rescue teams are registered charities. We take that seriously. If one is receiving funds from the public, one must be accountable. We are going through the processes of conforming with the new charities regulations which are coming in. Currently, Mountain Rescue Ireland is converting itself into a company limited by guarantee in order to have the level of governance required by the State and other organisations.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Christie wish to make a concluding point?

Mr. Gerry Christie:

The closest thing to concluding has been made by Deputy Ó Cuív who I understand is not a permanent member of the committee. To recap on the issues, our goals include reversing the current funding split, which is one third from the State and two thirds from other sources. We want to see two thirds State funding and one third voluntary. We do not suggest the State pick up the whole bill; we are speaking of proportionality. We value our independence and community links. It is a question of readjusting.

Insurance is a real issue. Generally, in western Europe the agency that tasks the rescue teams - in our case the Garda or the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform - pays the insurance. That is the norm in western Europe. It would mean we would not have to go around making a case to Pobal or whoever was likely to listen to us. It is important to stress that. Finally, VAT is an issue. In fairness, Deputy Kyne asked a question on that in the House recently, to which the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, provided a two-page reply. I have read the reply many times and cannot make total sense of it. It is something we must make sense of pretty soon.

It was said that we have a passion for what we do. That is true. We are proud of that passion. The down-side of a passion is that one may look back retrospectively and consider that one was taken advantage of. I am not quite saying the cuckoo laid in one's nest, but it is a danger. I thank the committee for its time today.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses have made a compelling case and it is clear this issue must be examined. The committee will consider the case witnesses have made and the support that they have here. We will be following up on the matter. The question is why things have got to this stage in 2014. It is not just a question of this year, but something that has built up over the life of the structure. What we are about here is finding a way to combine volunteerism and independence with adequate funding.

Mr. Gerry Christie:

The dynamic that is bringing this issue into focus is the fact that Ireland is positioning itself as an adventure tourism destination.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is a changing dynamic which has been articulated and pointed out here. We thank the witnesses and will follow up on this to consider very seriously the points which have been made. We will have a meeting next week.