Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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On behalf of the committee, I welcome the members of the Equality Budgeting Campaign, Ms Louise Bayliss, Ms Louise Riordan and Mr. Richard Keane, and I thank them for their attendance.

We will discuss their petition calling for the introduction of equality budgeting in Ireland. The committee initially considered it at a meeting on 27 November 2013. At that point, the committee agreed to forward the petition to the Minister for Finance for consideration. Following a somewhat negative response from the Minister, the committee agreed to invite the members of the campaign to appear before it to elaborate on the petition. Members will be aware that budgetary decisions and their impact on the most vulnerable warrant close consideration before they are finalised. As a committee, we look forward to hearing the case for equality budgeting and how Departments and agencies could make greater use of internal and external policy analysis to capture the full impact of budget decisions and economic inequality. There is undoubtedly a need to conduct budgetary discussions in a more public and rational manner where key long-term data can be shared and debated.

Before we continue, I remind members and witnesses to switch their mobile phones to airplane, safe or flight mode to ensure interference with the broadcasting equipment is kept to a minimum. It is not sufficient to put the phone on silent mode.

Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call Ms Bayliss to make her presentation.

Ms Louise Bayliss:

I thank the committee for the invitation and we welcome the opportunity. The Equality Budgeting Campaign is a coalition of individuals and organisations who have come together to call for equality proofing of all budgets. I am accompanied by Ms Louise Riordan, who is a member of the National Women's Council of Ireland and Dublin chairperson of the 50-50 Group, and Mr. Richard Keane, who is a member of the Equality Budgeting Campaign team and director of Doctors for Choice. I am a member of the Equality Budgeting Campaign team and a founding members of Single Parents Acting for the Rights of Kids, SPARK.

Equality budgeting is an approach to economic policy making and planning that places equality at the centre of decisions concerning public expenditure and income. Through equality audits and impact assessments, equality budgeting provides information on how different sections of society are impacted by specific economic policy measures. The objective of equality budgeting lies in ensuring this information is made available to public representatives in order that they can make informed policy decisions that achieve the best outcomes for specific disadvantaged groups but also for society at large. Equality budgeting goes beyond traditional approaches to policy making and planning by, first, assessing the impact of expenditure resources on different sections of society, assessing who does and does not benefit, integrating equality as a driving principle and perhaps, more crucially, increasing transparency in the budgetary process.

Equality budgeting provides the following benefits: increased levels of information, including disaggregated data and impact assessment; increased levels of equality, including knowledge of who is disproportionately impacted, and evidence-based policy design, implementation and review; increased levels of transparency through the publication of information to show members of the public how they are affected; and reform to budgetary process, such as draft budget and meaningful engagement of stakeholder and legislators.

I will briefly outline how equality budgeting operates in other jurisdictions, as per the request of the committee. Equality budgeting originated in the 1980s in the form of gender budgeting and was pioneered by Australia. More than 60 countries have implemented or worked towards equality budgeting since then, including Canada, South Africa, the United Kingdom, Tanzania and Uganda. Some work was done in Ireland toward this, especially within the gender-mainstreaming unit of the Department of Justice and Equality. However, much of this was subsequently reversed with the dismantling of equality infrastructure.

I will focus in a little more depth on how equality budgeting works in Scotland, as this model has been especially useful to us in developing the ideas of our campaign. Scotland's Equality and Budget Advisory Group, EBAG, made up of government and civil society actors, works with the government on devising the budget and equality-proofing economic policy measures. A draft budget is published in September before being finalised in January. An equality statement is published alongside the budget, which highlights equality outcomes by theme, for example, health and well-being, and by equality characteristics - gender, race, age, etc. A full impact analysis is done.

As an example of how this works, the equality statement published alongside the most recent draft budget in Scotland in September 2013 describes how evidence from previous equality impact assessments had been used to steer funding decisions on the national parenting strategy. For instance, based on that research, money was allocated to projects aimed at tackling the higher costs faced by parents bringing up disabled children; targeting fathers in parenting programmes; and providing translated resources so that programmes are more inclusive of parents and children from ethnic minorities. In-depth research on the effects of the economic crisis as well as the EBAG meeting minutes are published on the Scottish Government website. Recently, representatives of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection, Deputies Tuffy and Ó Snodaigh, visited Scotland to liaise with government officials there on the subject of implementing equality budgeting.

As Ireland now holds a seat on the UN Human Rights Council, it is essential to make good on promises regarding economic, social and cultural rights. In January 2011, a UN expert, Magdalena Sepuleda Carmona, investigated Ireland and criticised it for failing to respect the economic, social and cultural rights of its citizens during the time of economic crisis.

We are lobbying for equality budgeting to be introduced by setting up a unit with responsibility for integrating equality horizontally across all economic policy processes and planning, with particular reference to the nine grounds of the Equal Status Acts; giving this unit the power and resources to undertake or commission research on the impact of the economic crisis; and to equality-proof existing and future economic policy measures.

The committee has asked how such a unit would operate with regard to having a veto over budgets. Our proposal does not envisage the unit having or requiring veto powers. Instead, the unit would provide legislators with full information on the equality-impact of a proposed budget in advance of voting in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Thus, the unit itself would have no veto power, but its work would enable elected representatives to make a far more informed decision than is currently possible on whether to vote for a Finance Bill.

The committee has also inquired about how the work of the proposed unit would be quality-impact assessed. We suggest that the aims of the unit be set out clearly at an early stage. Following the first year of the unit’s work, a review board should be set up comprising unit representatives, stakeholders in the budgeting process, and external experts, for instance, an economic researcher from a different state. The board would assess whether the unit’s aims had been met thus far and how its work might be improved. Reviews by international authorities such as the European Commission and the World Bank would also provide useful measures of quality impact. In a World Bank study from 2005, Ireland’s financial scrutiny of legislation was rated as the second worst in the developed world. We would expect an effective equality budgeting unit to significantly improve ratings of Ireland’s budgetary process on the European and world stages.

We would argue strongly that there is a need for equality budgeting. Budget 2012 was acknowledged to have had the most detrimental impact on lone parents and according to the Department of Social Protection’s own analysis, this trend continued in budget 2013. It stated that the budget that year had the most negative impact on working lone parents. Yet if we look at the data on poverty and deprivation in Ireland, this would appear to be an unjustified move as they had the highest levels of poverty and deprivation of any groups measured.

The EU survey of income and living conditions, SILC, report 2011 provides the most up-to-date figures we have on poverty and deprivation. Some 24.4% of the general population suffered two or more forms of deprivation, rising to 56% in the case of lone parents and their children, which is 230% higher than for the general population. The consistent poverty rate was 6.9 % for the general population, but for lone parent families was 16.4% or 238% higher. While the Department of Social Protection’s analysis was very welcome, it was carried out after the budget had been passed rather than before. We are arguing for prospective as well as retrospective analysis, which would take account of existing research and allow for informed decision-making.

We would also offer two examples of decisions made which have unintended consequences and which involve both the Departments of Social Protection, and Education and Skills. In both these cases, prior equality audits could have prevented unforeseen long-term consequences that are turning out to be very damaging to the groups affected.

Ireland has an excellent education system and should be applauded for its efforts to make third level education accessible to all socio-economic groups through grants and indeed the excellent HEAR scheme. However, when child benefit was cut for all 18 year olds, there was no provision made for dependent 18-year olds who may be still in school and where a parent is wholly reliant on social welfare. The child dependant rate is €29.80 but for children aged under 18 this is supplemented by the €30 per week child benefit. That €29.80 does not support the needs of an 18 year old. Although no research has yet been carried out, anecdotally, we have heard cases were children are being forced to leave school early and not complete the leaving certificate.

In July 2015, an estimated 63,000 lone parents will lose their entitlement to one-parent family allowance. This is the year they need to avail of training and education to become job ready, yet in budget 2014, second payments have ceased to lone parents who avail of FÁS or VEC courses, now the education and training board courses. This effectively bars them from taking up training and education opportunities one year before they will lose their social welfare entitlement.

We believe that the establishment of a unit to carry out pre-budget equality audits and post-budget impact assessments would help arm Ireland’s elected representatives with the information and the resources to avoid these kinds of oversights in the future. We are confident that our legislators want to make decisions in the interest of all the people and we consider that equality budgeting would give them a powerful tool with which to do that. I thank members of the committee for the time given to us and we would welcome any questions they might have.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their petition. We asked the Minister for Finance if he would consider the Equality Budgeting Campaign's proposal and the suggestion that the details of the budgetary measures be provided to the ESRI and the Equality Authority for assessment prior to budget day. His response was "[....] to allow for the most up to date economic and fiscal information to be taken into consideration, many of the measures introduced are not finalised until close to Budget day". He is saying that it is not possible to do equality budgeting because much of the detail is only agreed very close to the budget. I would like to get the witnesses' comments on that.
The Minister also stated in his reply:

I believe that the Oireachtas is the most appropriate place for Budgetary measures to be announced. You will be aware that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure & Reform took issue with the Fiscal Council, in order to carry out its endorsement function, being given the macro economic forecasts prior to the Oireachtas. With this in mind, I believe that there is sufficient time between Budget day and finalising the Finance Bill to allow analysis and debate of the measures to take place. This is also true of the Revised Estimates Volume.

The second reason being stated is that it can be analysed after budget day and that in the ensuing debates to which we would be party, we could argue the case for any of the equality-budgeting measures that need to be taken on board. I ask the witnesses for their comments on that. To put it into real terms, if equality budgeting had been done on last year's budget, what difference would it have made this year?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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We will take questions one at a time, as it will allow for a better flow.

Ms Louise Bayliss:

The Senator referred to the gap between the announcement of the budget and the approval of the Finance Bill. However, this year the Finance Bill was passed two days before the ESRI analysis came out, so legislators were forced to vote on a Finance Bill in the absence of information from the ESRI, which supports our argument that the information is not there before Oireachtas Members make the decisions.

It is quite shocking that the decisions are being made so close to the budget day and there is no time for analysis. Even small and medium-sized businesses cannot make budgetary decisions without a considerable amount of analysis. With such a huge budget at stake and with the lives and welfare of children, adults and disabled people at stake, for the Minister for Finance to say that there is no time for analysis when even a small or medium-sized business would make time for it is quite shocking. It further supports our belief that equality budgeting is definitely needed.

The Senator asked what difference it would make. I am from SPARK so my knowledge is of lone parents. It is quite shocking that the year before 63,000 lone parents are to lose their entitlement to one-parent family allowance, in July 2015, the Department of Education and Skills could cut funding for FÁS and VEC courses for lone parents. If equality budgeting had been used at that time, such measures would not have occurred.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Based on a letter that the Minister for Finance sent to the committee, he does not seem to want to go there. Why would the Department of Finance be slow to implement equality budgeting when Ms Bayliss says she has seen it working in other jurisdictions?

Ms Louise Bayliss:

We are not looking for a huge economic change. All we are looking for is transparency, which was one of the cornerstones of the Government's proposals when it came to power. The budget is no longer even decided by the whole Cabinet, let alone the whole Oireachtas - it is decided by four people in the Economic Management Council, which runs counter to that. We seek transparency, and equality budgeting is very much about transparency. It is about giving the power to ordinary legislators to make the correct decisions with the information. There is obviously some reluctance to provide that information and transparency.

Mr. Richard Keane:

We are seeking to address three streams in this process. Who is affected by the budget? There are various groups, particularly those who do not have strong lobby groups and are not represented on the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. In recent years the budget has had a greater impact on those on lower incomes. We are talking about addressing another stream, which is the political will at the moment. Having begun the equality budgeting campaign, we know we have considerable support from Oireachtas Members from all parties. The third stream is the process. The current budgetary process is dysfunctional, with a very short lead-in time to when the budget decisions are announced. By the time many NGOs make their pre-budget submissions, in reality the decisions are generally done and dusted.

We are looking for something along the lines of the Scottish model. Scotland is a country close to us with a similar-sized population. We should look at how it addresses its budgetary process and how its budget has evolved. The Scottish Government has a positive equality duty which is underpinned by its Equality Act 2010. It has an equality budgeting advisory group that is part of the process. We are not saying that when the budget arrives anybody here should have a veto or anything. However, we seek a process that is more open and transparent.

The current budgetary decision-making process is dysfunctional and does a disservice to many Deputies and Senators in this House. They have a duty to stand up and look after constituents of whatever cohort and category. They have a very limited role unless they are within the Department of Finance or within the institution of the Civil Service.

We know that Deputies Tuffy and Ó Snodaigh travelled to Scotland recently. As Deputy Ó Snodaigh is present he can probably tell us much more. We are looking towards this model to open up the process, thereby allowing Oireachtas Members to represent their constituents in a better way and represent those who are more marginalised and generally the weakest members of society. If we want to achieve egalitarian change in Ireland, one of the important facets is economic participation in our society.

Today the TASC newsletter was published. There will be a conference with Thomas Piketty on 20 June. The OECD is talking about income inequality, as is the IMF. Having gone through an economic crisis, let us see if we can take the next steps towards making the outcomes of the budgetary process fairer and more equal.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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How does Scotland avoid the last-minute scramble we are led to believe happens in the Department of Finance, where things change in the last week or so?

Mr. Richard Keane:

As I understand, it starts the process in September and the budget arrives in January, with involvement and participation at all stages. It starts with a draft budget. Here, it is like the third secret of Fatima and nobody knows. I understand there will be issues on the margin with regard to last-minute apportioning of moneys, which is fine. However, the process should be more transparent and open to allow parliamentarians and people generally to offer some scrutiny, particularly those who are not represented by well-oiled machines or powerful lobby groups.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses made a presentation to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection, and reference has been made to that committee's Chairman, Deputy Tuffy, and to Deputy Ó Snodaigh. We will be liaising between the two committees. After the witnesses have presented and we have completed the question-and-answer session, we will go into private session. We will be liaising with the other committee - not duplicating each other's work - on recommendations and how we move forward. We will be leaning on the experiences garnered from the visit to Scotland.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for coming here and for bringing this petition. The ship of state moves awfully slowly and it changes even more slowly. I say that because it is true. Any changes people try to introduce will also be achieved slowly. However, while there have been observations about the way we have a last-minute budget - having spoken to various Ministers, they say there is always a bit of a scramble at the end of the budget process - the heavy lifting goes on for some months beforehand, leading to refining at the last minute. We need to establish where in the timeline this ought to fit in. We should not get distracted by that last-minute process.

There is always some window dressing and shuffling things around at the last minute. The task is to try to work out the earlier timeline and where this would fit in with that. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, who is the Minister for this committee, has said he, like the witnesses, believes there should be greater transparency for parliamentarians and a greater understanding that it should no longer be like the third secret of Fatima. While steps are being made with the publication of the Estimates and the changed timeline for the budget, it is slow. People who need to be taken care of cannot afford to wait, which is where the witnesses come in.

From the experiences of and research by the witnesses, what has been the impact of equality budgeting in other countries on those groups of people they spoke about? While I know there is research, I do not know it off the top of my head and it is not in today's presentation. Ireland is behind the curve. The witnesses said 60 other countries had already introduced some kind of equality budgeting, and in 2005 the World Bank said we were poor at budgeting. What strong evidence is there that having a unit or expertise translated into people having more money to spend? What evidence is there that governments did not just set up an equality budgeting unit to look clever, but that it made a difference? What countries would the witnesses point to as examples to show it works? I do not want to be part of recommending another piece of window dressing on the window dressing, merely appointing experts for the sake of it. I am not being cynical, but we are quite good at that. We put all sorts of reports on shelves and all sorts of people are doing all sorts of things that have no impact.

If we were to follow the advice of the Equality Budgeting Campaign and have such a unit, would it be part of the Economic and Social Research Institute? Where would it be sited and under whose auspices? Where would it sit and who would be on it? I am sure the witnesses have thought about that in order to raise a petition, come here and recommend it to us. The idea of a unit by itself is too airy-fairy. I do not mean to be critical, but I do not want to recommend it unless I know exactly what we are talking about.

Ms Louise Bayliss:

No specific research has been done on the impact of equality budgeting in various countries because the question is what would it be like if the equality budgeting had not taken place, and that cannot be answered. All we can point to is the fact that there is no equality budgeting in Ireland and the equality gap has increased. All we can do is point to the numerous ESRI reports and survey of income and living conditions, SILC, reports that year-on-year show that the bottom decile of our jurisdiction are paying more for the crisis than the top decile. It is too difficult to do a report. The research has not been done. Senator O'Keeffe said research had been done but we have tried unsuccessfully to locate it, because the research would have to say what would have happened had the equality budgeting not been done. It is a difficult piece of research. All we can do is point to the fact that without equality budgeting, the poorest and most disadvantaged in our society, the bottom decile, have paid more per household than the top decile. We need to close the gap. The research does not exist as far as we are aware. Dr. Clara Fisher, a fellow of the London School of Economics, has researched this, as have Ms Riordan, Mr. Keane and I, who are all MSc graduates, and we have not come across that research, so if Senator O'Keeffe does come across it we would-----

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I meant to imply I assumed that it existed. I was apologising for not knowing about it.

Mr. Richard Keane:

In Ireland, the Combat Poverty Agency, founded by the late Frank Cluskey, is no longer, and it was doing some fabulous work. The Equality Authority's funding has been cut. When the Equal Status Act was enacted, Ireland was a pioneer. We were not looking for research anywhere else but pioneering something. We know budgets are having a severe impact on the wrong people. They are not fair.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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We know that.

Mr. Richard Keane:

Specifically, we see a role for the Equality Authority because it has a mandate for equality legislation, but it also needs some expertise from the ESRI.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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Yes, it does.

Mr. Richard Keane:

There is a problem because there is a merger in progress between the Equality Authority and the Irish Human Rights Commission. While we come here with a proposal, there are decisions outside our control. An equality budgeting unit should sit in that architecture. A commitment to economic, social and cultural rights is coming down the tracks, so we do not want to miss the train. We can do a lot of work here. There is expertise in Ireland from TASC and NERI, and there are statistics everywhere. If we need to do that work, a good next step would be to recommend that we bring all these people together and assess the feasibility of it.

The Scottish model is a good model given that it fits our population size. That is where we have been going, because in urban planning a participatory budget is being processed. That is fine, but we want it to be underpinned with an equality principle. Scotland has the added advantage of the Equality Act 2010, which means everybody has a positive duty towards equality. Although I am not an equality legislation expert, perhaps there is a lacuna in our legislation in that the Equal Status Act goes only so far, and enforcement and implementation are missing.

Ms Louise Riordan:

Regarding where an equality budgeting unit would be situated, we suggest that the ESRI and Equality Authority be involved, but that it be part of the Department of Finance. It should also have NGO involvement. Regarding outcomes and benefits, having that level of disaggregated data would be very beneficial for the Deputies, those making the decisions and everybody involved. That would be an important outcome. At the National Women's Council we are always crying out for disaggregated data because it is too simple at the moment. We need to increase levels of transparency in the budgetary process. That is a major issue and a very important outcome.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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Is there a country that has long championed equality budgeting yet has a large gap between the top and bottom incomes? I am not trying to disagree with the Equality Budgeting Campaign.

Mr. Richard Keane:

Only today I learned that the French economist Thomas Piketty is coming to Ireland on 20 June. He has analysed the budgetary processes of 20 countries right back to the 18th century. He analysed the top 1% and the rest, because, as we know, in the last few years, "1%" has become a mantra about who owns what and who gets what in society. In Ireland we are often very reluctant to talk about who has power and status in society, who gets what, and who has strong supporters in political parties or the Government. I suggest examining that research. TASC, which is having a day with this economist on 20 June, has come out with some very good reports recently on where we are.

One of its first reports, which is probably ten years old at this stage, was on the golden circle in Irish society.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I remember it well.

Mr. Richard Keane:

It is not that we do not have some research and data, but parliamentarians need disaggregated data to do comparative analyses, equality-proof budgets and audit previous budgets. For example, we could audit last year's budget as a first step.

Ms Louise Bayliss:

Senator O'Keeffe asked whether equality budgeting had failed somewhere. Lessons have been learned. Last year, someone who had been involved in equality assessments in the Northern Ireland Assembly visited us. She told us that disaggregated data and information were used, that NGOs and stakeholders were included more and that it was making a positive difference. However, she pointed out that this process was not underpinned by legislation. Some gaps were highlighted. Senator O'Keeffe said she would be afraid of its becoming window dressing, which is something of which we would also be terrified. There is no point in adding another layer that does not achieve anything, so I understand the Senator's concerns.

When the woman from the Assembly attended our equality budgeting seminar in the office of the National Women's Council of Ireland, she stated that, to keep the burden from being placed on the shoulders of the individual who had been disproportionately affected or discriminated against, legislation was necessary. In this way, as soon as information showed there was a gap, there could be a legislative outcome and people could act. This is something we have learned from our neighbours.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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Do not be too disheartened by the Minister's response. The very fact that the witnesses are present and debating-----

Ms Louise Bayliss:

I understand Senator O'Keeffe's point about window dressing, but there were disaggregated data in the Northern Irish example, people were able to argue their cases better and there was some positive impact. However, it was noticed that none of this was underpinned by legislation. We were told that if we wanted to try something similar, we must underpin it with legislation from the start so that we would not just be adding another layer.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have been a champion of equality budgeting for quite a while. A trip to the Scottish Parliament did not dampen my enthusiasm for it, but some practicalities were brought home to me. They are the same as the ones in Stormont. There is a slight difference between those jurisdictions and ours - our budgets deal with tax rates, social welfare rates and so on, whereas theirs do not. They address tax changes subsequently, but they cannot influence them in the same way that Deputies can influence a Minister for Finance or Social Protection after the fact.

The Scottish Parliament has put together an elaborate mechanism for engaging with various Ministers and Departments and is enthusiastic about it. Given the forthcoming referendum, however, it is considering major changes in the event of independence, as it will have the added burden of dealing with tax rates, etc. It is confident that the groundwork it has laid will stand to it. We, on the other hand, only approach issues after the fact. Before it moves to full budgeting and so forth in the near future, the Scottish Parliament has already managed to ingrain the concepts of equality budgeting and consideration of the impacts on various sectors of society in advance of decisions being taken.

Interestingly, committees in the Northern Ireland Assembly have been dealing with the welfare reform process for two years. It has taken that long because the impacts of major changes in social welfare rates and how the social welfare system operated under Westminster - it wanted assemblies to rubber-stamp changes - were not examined. In fairness to MLAs from all parties, they called a halt to that because the impact, how many people would be affected and whether other methods could achieve the same desired outcome needed to be considered. The Scottish did a little work in this regard, but they had already changed some of their rates.

The delay in welfare reform in the North has proven to be the right approach, given the fact that a number of court cases have been taken in Britain on the basis that the impacts of the changes are disproportionate. This debate is worth considering - if the courts come out in favour of those who have been disproportionately affected, it would be a useful tool in Ireland. If the decision goes the other way, we will still need to champion the approach that has been conveyed at this meeting, namely, a longer lead-in time ahead of a budget. Previously, Estimates would be published early, there would be a debate and taxation measures would eventually be decided. In recent years, however, we have been landed with everything on one day. That does not allow society as a whole enough time.

A major failure of this and the previous Governments is the fact that the legislation that flowed from budgets, particularly the Finance and Social Welfare Bills, followed quickly and usually had the guillotine applied to them. That hampered the debate when we wanted to tease out the full effects. If nothing else, we should avoid the use of guillotines on Bills that have an impact on various groups in society.

I wish the witnesses well. The report has been put together following a trip. We had two reasons for going - social enterprise, and major changes in Scotland as regards procurement and local labour clauses. I have not spoken with Deputy Tuffy to sign off on the report of what we saw and heard, but I hope that will be done in the coming weeks.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome what has been said about a longer lead-in time to the budgetary process. The lead-in time for Finance Bills has become short and the guillotine has been used. We do not get a chance to tease out matters. Given the changes to the committee system, more work may be done at committee level. There has been a small improvement in that regard.

In terms of inequalities, there could be a crude system preventing people's salaries from being changed overnight, but changes could still be made through the tax system, levies and so on. For example, the maximum and minimum rates of social protection can be changed. How would legislation change this situation? I am in favour of legislating. I have studied how it did not make one blind bit of difference when some countries inserted such clauses in their constitutions. Some countries can point to climate change or fresh air for everyone being covered by their constitutions, but they do nothing to provide a clean air environment. Do the witnesses agree that legislation rather than a referendum would be a more practical way of dealing with inequalities?

The Constitutional Convention has made good recommendations and we will probably hold various referendums on them.

In the short term, legislation dealing with taxation on high incomes and ensuring social welfare rates do not fall below a certain figure, while not erasing inequality, would go a long way towards addressing the issue. Perhaps the witnesses would comment.

Ms Louise Bayliss:

I accept the Deputy's point and personally believe that would be a good idea. In my view, legislation to underpin the principle of equality budgeting is important. Like the Deputy, I favour increased taxation and limiting multiples of income for certain people while ensuring a basic income for others. However, this campaign is not about that. On this occasion, I am representing an amalgamation of a huge number of umbrella groups to ensure that no new decisions are made that unfairly impact any specific group. While what is proposed is not revolutionary or dramatic and will not change the world overnight, it would ensure that there is information at hand to at least underpin the concept of equality. I believe this is a moderate step, one which commences the idea and raises people's consciousness of the need for equality underpinning. This may not be as dramatic as I or members would like but I must be conscious that today I am representing an umbrella group, all of whose members do not have those viewpoints. The viewpoint I am representing today would be that from now on there should be information available to ensure that decisions made are made with full impact assessment and an understanding of the difference being made to people's lives. The purpose of this campaign is to ensure there is an underpinning of equality.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. While address of the equality issue is necessary, as I have mentioned previously, equality legislation does not always work. We have seen this in the context of equal treatment under the law of women drivers and young male drivers. While some people might argue that that is how it should be, whether it is fair must also be considered. Often, a conflict arises between equality and fairness. I am not suggesting this is the case all the time. It may only happen in a minute number of cases but it does happen.

It could be argued that transparency in budget decisions may be more important than the particular theme of having to prepare an equality statement in advance of the adoption of a draft budget. As stated by Deputy Kitt, it could equally be argued that issues such as how policies affect climate change, welfare reform, fairness, equality, cohesion, solidarity, inclusion and so on should be brought into the mix in the context of, say, a draft budgetary proposal to be discussed by a parliamentary committee. Would the witnesses be concerned that if this were the case the equality agenda would be lost, conflicted or sidelined?

It could be argued by a person who is concerned about climate change, justice, value for money and so on that these are cross-cutting issues that need also to be addressed and that in the context of the overarching transparency principle we should not only be considering one pillar of the budgetary process.

Mr. Richard Keane:

I do not wish to lose focus but, as I understand it, there is a great deal of research on environmental sustainability, including a climate change Bill. In response to Deputy Kitt's comments, while a legislative approach is probably warranted, how far or how minimal it goes then becomes an issue. At a meeting I attended last Monday a speaker from the Scottish equivalent of the HSE referred to that agency having a positive duty to equality-proof all of its services, in respect of which he listed a number of actions. I have not heard of this being done here, even though we have had a pioneering Equality Authority. It seems to me that the authority's agenda here has been nobbled for the past decade. We have lost track a little.

Reference was made to data. There is specialist knowledge available from the former Equality Authority CEO, Niall Crowley, the great think-tank TASC, and NERI, which has produced assessments of the budgets. It is not that we cannot reach out to resources, know-how and skills that are located close to this building. In my view, legislation is needed to underpin the fact that the Government has a positive duty in this area. This means that when questions arise, which undoubtedly will come from the Department of Finance, in regard to feasibility, cost and so on, members can point to the research from Wilkinson and Pickett which states that egalitarian societies are more cohesive societies. When there is a cost-benefit analysis, we all win. Empirical data and research are available.

I welcome the opportunity presented by this meeting to tease out all of these aspects. The committee has a duty to make the same recommendation that was made by Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Joanna Tuffy at another committee. It appears to be in the zeitgeist that there is something about income and equality that needs to be addressed, and this is one way we can address it, given that the wheels of government grind very slowly.

Ms Louise Bayliss:

On the point regarding transparency, we believe that transparency is the way forward. While our mantra is equality budgeting, we are not assuming that equality encompasses only financial equality. It covers issues such as environmental impact and all of the other issues mentioned. Equality is not only financial. An impact assessment should be eventually incorporated into everything. It is not only about income. It must be borne in mind that we are speaking about the budget. As such, people's minds will obviously be focused on the financial impacts. An impact assessment should allow other impacts to be noted and argued and, also, should be transparent.

Noel Harrington (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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In cases where conflict arises, including under the impact assessment process suggested, somebody will have to be make the call.

Ms Louise Bayliss:

Yes, but if there is empirical information available it is easier to make those decisions. Currently, decisions are being made without reference to data. We are asking that decisions at least be data-based.

Mr. Richard Keane:

I neglected to mention that one of the only departments of equality studies in the world is based at University College Dublin, where two or three of us are in mid-study or have graduated. University College Dublin has been involved for around 30 years now on a body of work dealing with social, economic, cultural and physical respect and recognition. There are people for whom this subject is their bread and butter.

There are many people who can be called upon and together we can work out a process or a plan of action.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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We will bring the matter to a close at this stage. The committee will briefly go into private session to work out what we will do next on the issue. We will liaise with colleagues on the Oireachtas committee dealing with education and social protection, and we will consider their perspectives and the visit to the Scottish Parliament rather than duplicate the work. We may have a joint private session to work out where we can go from here. We may also bring in other witnesses who could assist with the process. I thank the witnesses for coming before us today as the discussion has been very helpful.