Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I remind Members, witnesses and those in the Visitors Gallery to ensure their mobile telephones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they cause interference even when on silent mode with the recording equipment in the committee rooms.

We are here today to meet H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos, ambassador of the Republic of Cyprus to Ireland. He is accompanied by Mr. Macrikios from the embassy. They are both very welcome. I wish, first, to extend my condolences to the ambassador on the sudden death last Saturday of the Defence Minister in Cyprus, Minister Mitsopoulos. He was only 48 years of age and died from an aneurysm and associated cardiac failure. He had been promoted as Minister for Defence earlier this month following a reshuffle and prior to his appointment to that position he was Minister for Communications. On behalf of the committee and the members of the committee, I wish to offer my sympathy and condolences to the ambassador's government and to the late Minister's family. I hope he will convey those sentiments to all concerned.

The ambassador is here today to address the committee on the relaunch of the Cyprus peace talks and the committee very much look forward to hearing about the progress of these talks. I am sure over the years we have had many discussions in this committee before I became chairman on the Cyprus peace talks but to no avail.

After stalling for several years talks have begun again and I look forward to hearing about the headway made in these negotiations. There is a direct Irish connection as the first Cypriot ambassador to Ireland, Andreas Mavroyiannis, has been selected as the Greek Cypriot negotiator. His time here will have been important to him. He was here some time ago and knows what happened in the talks on Northern Ireland. This experience will be important for him. I am sure the committee will join me in also wishing the Turkish Cypriot negotiator the best of luck in the coming months.

We will hear from the ambassador, followed by questions and answers from committee members.

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos:

I thank the Chairman for his welcoming remarks and for his expression of sympathy to the family of the late minister. I thank the committee for the honour and the privilege of addressing it on a very important issue of European and international interest.
To examine the prospects of achieving a lasting solution to the Cyprus issue, we need to clarify from the beginning the legal and political parameters of the problem. Cyprus became an independent state in 1960. On 15 July 1974, the military junta then ruling Greece, with the collusion of a handful of Greek Cypriot collaborators on the island, carried out a coup to overthrow the democratically-elected government of Cyprus. Although during the five days until the date of the Turkish invasion, 20 July, not a single Turkish Cypriot was killed or even injured Ankara, using the coup as a pretext and in violation of the UN charter, the rules of international law and the Treaty of Guarantee of Cyprus to which it is a signatory, invaded Cyprus purportedly to restore constitutional order. Even if such a pretext had, for argument's sake, any value, constitutional order was restored three days after the Turkish invasion. However, instead of withdrawing its forces, Turkey occupied 36.2% of the territory of the country, and has continued to do so for the past 40 years, in spite of UN resolutions calling for the withdrawal of foreign troops from Cyprus.
It suffices at this juncture to stress the following point. It is a paradox, to say the least, for a country occupying EU territory, to even commence accession talks for joining the EU, let alone progress in such a course, while continuing to violate the sovereignty of a member state and fully disregarding all relevant values and principles enshrined in the treaties of the Union. Impunity for Turkish aggression sends the wrong signal regarding the acceptability or legality of these acts.
I come now to the efforts to solve the political problem of Cyprus. As the Chairman mentioned, successive rounds of UN-sponsored talks over these years have been unsuccessful, always due to the Turkish intransigence. In 2004, a proposal by the then UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan for a comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus problem, was put to simultaneous referenda before the two communities of Cyprus. A total of 75.8% of Greek Cypriots voted against this specific plan, while 64.9% of Turkish Cypriots voted in favour. However, it was only when illegal settlers from Turkey, who have no legal right to vote, were allowed to do so that this result was achieved. The Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot votes can easily be explained by the following elements, which were not widely known internationally. The Annan plan legitimised the presence of nearly all illegal settlers from Turkey, who outnumber the Turkish Cypriots. It provided for the permanent presence of Turkish troops on Cyprus, and afforded Turkey the right to intervene in Cyprus as it saw fit. Yet the most abhorrent widespread provisions of the plan were those depriving all Cypriots of fundamental rights guaranteed for every other EU citizen, such as the right to settle in their ancestral homes in the occupied part of Cyprus and exercise their democratic right to own a property, irrespective of the bizonal and bicommunal administrative arrangements of the proposed solution. The negative outcome of the referendum rendered the Annan plan null and void.
Some valuable time was lost recently due to the Turkish side's decision not to have any contact with Cyprus during the Cypriot Presidency of the EU, and to wait passively for the result of the presidential elections in Cyprus which took place a year ago. As soon as it assumed its duties, the Government of President Anastasiades focused on dealing with the financial crisis that struck Cyprus last March and applied itself to the Cyprus issue in the autumn of 2013. Following the insistence of the Greek Cypriot side on the need for defining and reaffirming the parameters that would be contained in an agreed solution, the two communities of Cyprus spent a period of productive exchanges which led, on 11 February 2014, to a joint communique prescribing the shared principles on which the renewed talks would be based. This development was welcomed as historic by the Secretary-General of the UN, the EU, Greece, Turkey, the UK, the USA, Russia, and the majority of the political forces in both communities.
I will now outline the provisions stipulated in the joint communique. The status quois unacceptable. A settlement would have a positive impact on the entire region, while first and foremost benefiting Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots, respecting democratic principles, human rights and fundamental freedoms, as well as each other's distinct identity and integrity and ensuring their common future in a united Cyprus within the European Union. The leaders expressed their determination to resume structured negotiations in a results-oriented manner. All unresolved core issues will be on the table, and will be discussed interdependently. The leaders will aim to reach a settlement as soon as possible, and hold separate simultaneous referenda thereafter.
The settlement will be based on a bicommunal bizonal federation with political equality, as set out in the relevant Security Council resolutions and high-level agreements. The united Cyprus, as a member of the United Nations and of the European Union, shall have a single international legal personality and a single sovereignty, emanating equally from Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. There will be a single united Cyprus citizenship, regulated by federal law. All citizens of the united Cyprus shall also be citizens of either the Greek-Cypriot or the Turkish-Cypriot constituent state. This status shall be internal and shall complement and not substitute in any way the united Cyprus citizenship. Neither side may claim authority or jurisdiction over the other.
The united Cyprus federation shall result from the settlement knowing the settlement's approval by separate simultaneous referenda. The federal constitution shall prescribe that the united Cyprus federation shall be composed of two constituent states of equal status. The bizonal bicommunal nature of the federation, and the principles upon which the EU is founded, will be safeguarded and respected throughout the island. Union in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession or any other unilateral change to the state of affairs will be prohibited.

The negotiations are based on the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. The appointed representatives are fully empowered to discuss any issue at any time. The leaders of the two communities will meet as often as needed. They retain the ultimate decision-making power. Only an agreement freely reached by the leaders may be put to separate simultaneous referenda. Any kind of arbitration is excluded. The sides will seek to create a positive atmosphere to ensure the talks succeed. They commit to avoiding blame games or other negative public comments on the negotiations. They also commit to efforts to implement confidence building measures that will provide a dynamic impetus to the prospect of a united Cyprus.
The two sides have appointed negotiators who meet each week and examine their respective positions on all aspects of the Cyprus issue. At this stage, it is expected they will complete mapping each side's positions. At a meeting to be held on 31 March 2014, the leaders of the two communities, President Nicos Anastasiades, and the Turkish Cypriot leader, Mr. Dervis Eroglou, will assess the process. Following this first stage of the negotiations, the second stage, which will begin immediately afterwards, will concentrate on narrowing the gaps between the positions expressed by the two sides. Despite the general positive atmosphere, statements by Turkish and Turkish Cypriot officials still talking today about two "peoples", two "states", two "sovereignties", etc., leave limited space for justified optimism. However, the firm commitment of the Greek Cypriot side to continue unabatedly towards achieving a viable solution based on international and European law accompanied by the renewed interest of the UN, the EU, the US and other international actors in safeguarding a secure corridor of stability, peace and security as well as a safe alternative energy supply source for Europe within a volatile and explosive broader region allow us to look to this renewed effort with reserved optimism despite positions expressed by one side in violation of the agreed communiqué. At the same time, a Turkish naval research vessel, the Barbaras, violates systematically the territorial sea and the exclusive economic zone, EEZ, of Cyprus, despite calls by the UN, EU, US and Russia for respect for Cyprus's maritime zones.
New elements in the broader equation, including the discovery of significant amounts of natural gas in the EEZ of Cyprus and the adjacent EEZ of Israel and Egypt, as well as the parallel initiatives for the construction of a liquified natural gas, LNG, station in Cyprus and-or a south-eastern Mediterranean pipeline to provide Europe with alternative energy supply lines, create an unprecedented conducive environment to establish on a reunited island the much needed peaceful co-operation and prosperity for all stakeholders involved. In the meantime, confidence building measures, especially, the acceptance of the proposal for the return of the ghost city of Famagusta to its legitimate citizens, are a must as they would permit a better climate to boost reconciliation. Such a gesture on behalf of Turkey, which is also demanded by Security Council Resolution 550 of 1984, would also allow benefits for all parties involved, including Turkey.
I would like to underline that a lasting solution of the Cyprus problem in strict compliance with international and European legality would be a win-win situation for the two communities on the island, Turkey itself, the EU, broader western interests and the entire region, and they would provide for an enhancement of global stability. In the strenuous efforts to positively exploit this very promising new prospect, the firm support of every single actor is highly valued in order not to miss such a unique opportunity. In this regard, I consider the involvement and initiative of the Chairman and members of the committee as a valuable one and I thank them for their interest and the opportunity offered to me to brief them on the latest developments. A visit by an Irish parliamentary mission to Cyprus in support of the ongoing peace talks on the above described principles might be a good idea to be explored. I express once again the appreciation and gratitude of the Government and people of Cyprus to the Irish people for their continued principled support as expressed by successive Irish Governments. The committee's meeting with the ambassador of Turkey in the near future on the same issue will offer it the opportunity to express to the key actor its principled commitment to a lasting solution of the Cyprus problem based on international and European law, which will also relieve Turkey from its most serious impediment towards accession to the EU. We cannot afford the luxury of missing such an historic opportunity. I thank the committee very much for its attention and I am at members' disposal for any questions or clarifications they might ask.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the ambassador for outlining to us the current situation with regard to the negotiations and the future. He said there is limited space for optimism. Before I hand over to Deputy Smith, could the ambassador tell me whether he is optimistic on this occasion?

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos:

I am reservedly optimistic and I expect that with the support of the international community, we might reach a result that was not possible in the past.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the ambassador for his presentation. Of course, there have been very good relationships between our country and Cyprus over the years. In 2001, a resident ambassador to Cyprus was appointed. We held the Presidency in 2004 when Cyprus acceded to the EU. The ambassador mentioned the Turkish application for membership of the EU. When he discussed this matter with the European enlargement Commissioner, what was his response in respect of the point made by the ambassador where the sovereignty of a member state is breached by a country with an application for membership under consideration?

Under whose auspices were the referenda referred to by the ambassador held in 2004? As the Chairman said, the renewed interest is welcome, and it is to be hoped substantial progress can be made. Is there a deadline or timeline where it is hoped that negotiations could conclude successfully? What is the status of the Security Council resolution referred to by the ambassador relating the return of the city of Famagusta to its legitimate citizens?

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos:

In respect of the discussion of the issue with the Commissioner for EU enlargement the position is that although as a matter of principle, the EU is against any foreign occupation, it thinks that having a channel of communication and a process with Ankara might lead to the solution of the problem in a way that fits European rules and principles. That was also the reason Cyprus as a member of the EU accepted the beginning of accession negotiations. Despite all these good efforts from the European side, the Turkish side did not fulfil its part, including the full implementation of the Ankara protocol.

The protocol and customs union with all member states applied to all member states except Cyprus. In every EU text on Turkish accession, all of those issues are raised and put to the Government of Turkey. We expect that very soon the effort, which was recently undertaken, will give them the opportunity to prove they respect those positions and principles.

I move to the referenda that were provided for in the Annan plan. They were undertaken by the two communities, theoretically under the auspices of the UN. I use that word because there was no concrete supervision and control of the lease of the borders. Some violations occurred therefore because settlers in the occupied part took part in the referendum which they should not have done. There is no deadline because the wish of both sides and the United Nations was to avoid any pressure. Intervention was also excluded for that reason. Both sides wish to finish this exercise as soon as possible in so far as it guarantees a positive and lasting outcome.

The resolution was adopted by 13 votes in favour. There was one abstention and one against. It is a mandatory resolution. As with every resolution of the UN and its Security Council, all member states are obliged through the charter of the UN to implement it. Unfortunately, and despite reference to the resolution by later resolutions, Turkey continues to deny its implementation. We hope that, with the new prospects for the solution of the Cyprus problem, it will implement the resolution as a confidence-building measure. In exchange, our side offers to Turkey and Turkish Cypriots very positive counter gestures. These include that if the city is opened to the legitimate previous citizens, the port of Famagusta will open under UN or EU auspices for trade from the occupied part of Cyprus. The reconstruction of the city will allow both sides to come closer. After 40 years, it needs to be rebuilt from scratch. If Turkey fully applies the Ankara protocol, Cyprus intends to defreeze certain chapters of Turkey's accession to the EU. That is why I described those measures together with the effort as a win-win situation in the case that they are implemented.

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the ambassador. The idea of inviting him and the Turkish ambassador was to allow the committee to be somewhat helpful to the process. It is also about us trying to get our heads around the way the talks process will move forward. There will probably be a significant view around the world that this cannot be done or solved. We know from our own recent history that things people felt could not be solved or moved on can be. We have prime examples in South Africa with the end of apartheid and the end of the so-called Iron Curtain and even in Ireland with the peace process. Today is about expressing solidarity but also support in relation to the ongoing negotiations between Cyprus and the Turkish Government. I wish the negotiators well while acknowledging the significant problems they face. With compromise and people wanting a positive solution, things can be moved forward.

The ambassador mentioned the Farnagusta declaration and its potential. The Irish experience was that there was a need at certain times within the talks process for confidence building measures. Does the ambassador see the declaration as such a measure? He says the port will be open. The city as it stands is like a war memorial and a shrine to what happened in the past. The ambassador spoke about building a new city and bringing people in to work together to create a shared city in its true sense. How does he see that developing and what role can Ireland and the EU play? I tried to raise the matter with the Taoiseach in the context of European Council meetings, but did not get an opportunity. I raised the matter with the Minister of State, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, as I know the matter came up at the European Council meeting, but there was no sense of what Europe will do. Can the ambassador outline the role the EU can play? Is it a matter of sponsorship, funding or of putting pressure on or encouraging the Turkish side on the initiative? Is the initiative coming purely from the Cypriot side or is there some support on the Turkish Cypriot side?

We have spoken about the issue of settlers in the committee and been addressed in the context of Palestine and Israel. It will be one of the key issues within the talks. We know the current leader in the north of Cyprus, Mr. Eriglu, has stated that illegal settlers in northern Cyprus should receive citizenship in any unified state. I do not want to cause problems for the talks and if necessary the ambassador may avoid my question. What impact have the settlers had on Turkish Cypriots in particular? My understanding is that many Turkish Cypriots have left that part of Cyprus as they were unhappy with the regime and environment. Has there been significant movement and has it changed the genesis of what Cyprus was? How difficult would it be to get the settlers to go back to Turkey? The other settlers are those Europeans who have bought properties on the so-called Turkish side of Cyprus. What impact will this have in relation to it? I know there have been court cases. I am sure Irish people have bought properties on the Turkish side. What impact will an eventual settlement have on what these illegal settlers?

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos:

The most important element of the Famagusta issue is that under a specific Security Council resolution it is demanded to be returned to its legitimate inhabitants.

Both Ireland and the European Union could take a more active stance on this issue by asking Turkey to implement a resolution which is mandatory by definition. The European Union at every opportunity reminds Turkey of its international obligations, including the specific one, yet, it has never been put in front of Turkey as an ultimatum, that either it does this or there will be certain consequences. There is some space. We expect that with the new positive environment that the leadership and the Government of Turkey will prove to be bold enough to make this gesture but it has to be seen.

On the issue of settlers, there are two reports by the Council of Europe, one by Mr. Cuco and one by Mr. Laakso, proving that this policy of colonisation is well planned and implemented in stages and that it is a crime against humanity with the purpose of changing the demographic structure and balance of the occupied part of Cyprus. It is a crime which has to be condemned. Of course, sometimes we hear some voices talking about the humanitarian aspect of it. There is a basic principle in international law that illegality cannot produce legality, therefore, any product of a crime cannot be accepted. The Annan plan had some ideas, for example, to pay a kind of compensation to those people in order for them to return to their original places. On the question of how they have impacted on the occupied part, the Turkish Cypriots are not happy with the presence of the settlers and there are very good reasons for this. The Turkish Cypriots were Europeanised, while the settlers come from Anatolia which is one of the less developed areas of Turkey and they bring with them a fanatical, extremist Islamist outlook. Their culture and traditions are completely different from those of the Turkish Cypriots. Although before 1974, very few Turkish Cypriots were emigrating abroad, after that time they have emigrated in great numbers which combined with the massive implantation of settlers has resulted in the Turkish Cypriots being a minority in the occupied part of Cyprus. This problem needs to be dealt with by means of international law. The original and actual percentage between the two communities is 8% Greek Cypriots, 18% Turkish Cypriots and 2% Maronites, Latins and Armenians who have come to be on the island for historical reasons.

Because the two communities were widespread all over Cyprus and there was no homogenous area exclusively Turkish Cypriot or Greek Cypriot, Turkey is implementing a plan to "Turkify" the occupied part of Cyprus. For this reason it has "confiscated" all properties belonging to the Greek Cypriots. Approximately 200,000 Greek Cypriots became refugees within their own country by leaving the northern part in terror at the advance of the Turkish army in 1974. Their properties were taken with most of them given to settlers coming from Anatolia and some properties were illegally sold to foreigners. There are numerous European Court of Human Rights decisions clarifying that those properties remain in the ownership of the original Greek Cypriot owners. I refer to a famous case, the Orams case, which involved a British couple who bought property belonging to Greek Cypriots. The case was taken to the Cypriot courts and then to the British courts. The final decision was supported by the decision of the EU Court of Human Rights that the properties remain in the ownership of the original owners. If the law is followed then there would be a proper solution to the problem.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the ambassador to the meeting. The seven-point joint communiqué is a very strong basis for moving forward. If agreement can be achieved on those seven points it will be a major step towards achieving peace and reconciliation although I know the island has been at peace.

The negotiating team is very strong and is composed of very well qualified individuals. I understand they have access to all of the stakeholders which is a positive situation for moving forward. The ambassador has given a good explanation of the property issue.

I have some questions about education and culture and the roles of both in bringing about a unified and united Cyprus. I ask the ambassador to give his views. Is it correct to say that people are divided as being Greek Cypriot, Turkish Cypriot and Cypriot? I note the role of the Greek Orthodox Church in particular with regard to property issues. I ask the ambassador to comment. I ask the ambassador to comment on the British military presence in Cyprus which is an issue outstanding. I cannot help but ask how Cyprus is managing because it has the same relationship as we had with the troika, the IMF and the ECB. I hope it is in order to ask that question because the meeting is discussing another matter but it would be good to hear the ambassador's view.

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos:

On the question about education, Deputy O'Sullivan has experience of this issue. There are still thousands of missing people. Civilians - who were not fighters - were killed in cold blood. There is an atmosphere and propaganda from one side that does not allow the people to think clearly and positively. Before 1974 the two communities were living very peacefully together. Every village and city had a church side by side with a mosque. People followed their own religion without any real problems until some expansionist plans came on the scene. There is a renewed effort in parallel with the talks to improve the texts used in books and to preserve the monuments and churches in the occupied part and which had been impossible for the past 40 years. I refer to a very good gesture with regard to the Apostolos Andreas monastery. This was a positive step which would have been unimaginable a few years ago.

Deputy O'Sullivan asked for clarification on the terminology of identification. There is Cypriot nationality.

This is clear and it is provided in the constitution of Cyprus. Then there are two communities - the Greek Cypriot and the Turkish Cypriot - signifying their national origins or their religious beliefs. However, there is no distinction. That is why we have other minorities who keep their traditions and culture but who remain Cypriot citizens as well.
It was recognised as a positive gesture by the Turkish side that the church of Cyprus welcomed the joint communique and expressed its support for President Anastasiades in his effort to achieve a solution. Just two days ago, there was a meeting between the Archbishop of Cyprus and the Turkish Cypriot Mufti, and they agreed to exert every effort in order to preserve the monuments on each side, and also to allow people to access churches and mosques freely.
The British bases represent a very hot issue. During the talks for the Annan plan, the British Government offered to abandon half of the area covered by the bases in favour of a future federal state. Although there was no specific discussion of the issue, our understanding is that it remains valid for the new effort as well. It is true that the whole area covered by the British bases is too big for merely military or defence purposes, and there was a recent agreement between our Government and the British Government that the development of those properties should be allowed to go ahead after so many years without any limitations, unless they obstruct military or defence purposes per se.
The last question was about the IMF and the economic situation in Cyprus. We entered the programme just a year ago and all the signs were not good. Cyprus was the victim of experimentation in respect of the bail-in and other things that we could not imagine before. These things damaged not only the Cypriot economy but also trust in the euro internationally. If the free economy - based on respect for the value of money and accounts - was damaged, then the damage was done by those who made these decisions. Unfortunately, the Cypriot people were the victims of it. A kind of acceptable propaganda was used against the foreigners who were investing in Cyprus. Talk about money laundering, dirty money and so on proved to be completely wrong. All that money moved to other EU countries and nobody is talking about the colour of that money now.
Cyprus is doing very well. We have had the third visit of the troika and its members expressed their satisfaction that the economy is performing better than initially expected. We hope to follow the example of Ireland in a couple of years and return to the markets.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the ambassador and thank him for his presentation. It is good to hear that talks are going on. That must be seen as a positive thing. I do not have many questions because the ambassador covered many of the things in which I was interested. I was particularly interested in the problem presented by membership of the European Union. I was interested to see that one of the stipulations is that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. That has a familiar ring to us in view of our peace settlement, but it is absolutely essential because there will have to be very difficult compromises by both sides.

I have a friend who is a politician in Cyprus and I know how emotional she is on the issue of the island and what she sees as its occupation. One of the emotions she has expressed strongly is the sense of abandonment by the EU of Greek Cyprus. We have allowed the occupation of the island to continue. To what extent is that a widespread view? Is it resentment of the EU? Has it changed since the bail-in? I was in Greece recently and although they are reporting that they are doing well and hope to exit their own bailout programme shortly, nevertheless a quarter of a million depend every day for food on charities such as the churches. Is that the scenario in Cyprus as well? Is it happening in another EU country that so many people are dependent on charity?

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos:

The feeling expressed by the Deputy's friend is widespread. However, the Cypriot people were always pro-European. Zeno of Citium, a Cypriot of the fourth century BC, was the philosopher who came up with Stoic philosophy. Many of today's philosophical values such as tolerance, acceptance of difference, cosmopolitanism and so on, were initially preached by a Cypriot. All Cypriots have felt like Europeans since long ago. There is a mixture of disappointment. They were expecting more from the European Union, especially on the solidarity issue, which was not seen. There is a feeling that Cyprus was used as an experimental project without any thought for the human aspect. Nevertheless, the Cypriots decided to play by the rules of the game. They are working very hard. They suffer a lot and the results of the economy show that despite any weaknesses and shortcomings in the programme, by following it they can come out of it.

I should talk about the economic situation in Cyprus. The total population of the country is less than 1 million people, so we can make the analogy with Ireland. It was dependent mainly on tourism and services. Because of the damage to the banking sector, half of the economy was destroyed. Nevertheless, people are trying to find new avenues for getting back to growth with the guidance of the Government. The results up until now show that this is possible. We are very optimistic that in the foreseeable future we will be able to come out of it.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the ambassador for his comprehensive presentation. I thank the Chairman as well, given that he agreed to an in-depth analysis of a crisis that occurred 40 years ago. I congratulate him also on his recognition of the Western Sahara issue, which also has been forgotten for 40 years and which we will be discussing in greater detail in future.

We are far apart geographically, but we have a lot of historical comparisons. They are both divided islands and both have northern sectors. We have been talking about the English court's proper decision to deem illegal the actions of British residents who had taken over land and properties in northern Cyprus. We did have Northern politicians who had found a great escape for themselves in acquiring property in northern Cyprus. I hope one day that the chickens will come home to roost and that they will have to account for themselves. Cyprus has its cultural and religious divides; therefore, we have a tremendous amount in common. We have a gas field off Kinsale, while Cyprus has massive potential to produce gas.

The Cypriot and Turkish Governments are going through an extremely complex process, with which we wish Ambassador Stavrinos well. These are exciting times for the people of Cyprus and they should also be exciting times for the peoples of Turkey and Greece. Is the discovery of substantial gas deposits a unifying factor, or could it play a potentially negative role? We know that if this gas is exploited, Israel, Turkey and the people of Cyprus stand to benefit. As we know historically from Africa and elsewhere, when great deposits of minerals, gas or oil are discovered, sometimes it does not work to aid the unification process; it can work against it and create divisions. What is Ambassador Stavrinos's analysis of the potential benefits of these gas finds?

Cyprus has been a member of the European Union for about ten years, while Turkey is an aspiring applicant. How do Turkish Cypriots view the European Union from their perspective, given the horrendous difficulties, including the bail-out, Cyprus has gone through in the past decade? The parallel is that we are opening more chapters with Turkey. Ambassador Stavrinos may not be able to interpret the minds of Turkish Cypriots, as it may be more appropriate for the Turkish ambassador to do so. However, I would like to know from Ambassador Stavrinos how he thinks they view the European Union and the potential unity of the island.

This process has been 40 years in the making. It vividly jogged my memory when I saw the presentation on Famagusta by Cypriots. It brought back a lot of memories of Archbishop Makarios and the 1974 invasion.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

General Grivas.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. It is incredible to think it has been 40 years in the making, which is why we are debating the issue at this committee. Famagusta is almost like a city in mothballs. It is a phenomenal sight and this is happening in the European region.

I wish Ambassador Stavrinos every success with the review. I am looking forward with bated breath to what will happen on 31 March to see how the review is being analysed. I hope we can progress to the second stage of the process. There are approximately 840,000 Greek Cypriots and the ambassador spoke about the influx of settlers from Turkey. How many Turkish residents are there on Cyprus? I wish the discussions every success. There are many comparisons between Ireland and Cyprus. If the committee can do anything to assist, we will be happy to use our diplomatic corps and political power to progress it.

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos:

It is true to say we have so many things in common.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The troika was here, too.

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos:

Thank God, it has now gone away.

The discovery of huge amounts of gas offshore was a catalytic element. There are all of these global issues in the picture, including what is going on in the Middle East and further north, as well as in Europe, China and the United States. Therefore, having a safe alternative source of gas and, possibly, oil could be a game-changer. It is not only the amounts that were discovered off Cyprus but also those in the neighbouring exclusive economic zones of Israel, Egypt and, possibly, Lebanon. The assessment by American companies in the area is that the deposits already discovered could cover the needs of the European Union for many years to come. Of course, for all of them to be exploited we need a safe and secure environment, in which all actors involved in the Cyprus problem can play a role, including Turkey. As long as Cyprus remains an issue, it is naturally impossible to have any co-operation with Turkey on this matter. If the problem is solved based on the principles we mentioned in a commonly acceptable solution, why not co-operate with Turkey? After the problem is solved, the benefits will be the same for Greek and Turkish Cypriots alike.

The Turkish Cypriots look to Cyprus's membership of the European Union very positively. Suffice it to say all Turkish Cypriots, including the most notorious polemicist on the Turkish Cypriot side, the late Mr. Denktaş, held Republic of Cyprus passports and were, therefore, EU passport holders. All Turkish Cypriots are benefiting from holding these passports and can thus study at European universities while paying EU tuition fees. There are a significant number of Turkish Cypriots in Ireland who are using these passports; therefore, they enjoy the benefit of being EU citizens.

The only question concerns how Turkey can explain to Turkish Cypriots that they are being held hostage to its own policy, whereas Turkey wishes to become a member of the European Union at any cost. In solving the Cyprus problem, it should allow Turkish Cypriots to fully enjoy the benefits. It is only because of the buffer zone and the presence of 40,000 soldiers that Turkish Cypriots are not fully free to enjoy them. Despite the economic difficulties, a significant number of Turkish Cypriots are crossing to the free part in order to find employment. Of course, the current economic situation has affected both Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

The Famagusta project is a confidence-building measure which could offer benefits to everybody. As Deputy Eric Byrne said, it is a city which after so many years will have to be reconstructed from the beginning.

This will give a boost to economic activities on both sides through co-operation. It would be a new opening to the international world.

I was asked what the committee could offer. As I mentioned in my initial address, the committee could issue a statement supporting the starting of the negotiations, which the President was kind enough to do in the past, and also to express support for the proposal for Famagusta as something that was demanded by resolution of the UN and that has to be implemented. This will offer opportunity to everybody to enjoy the benefits. Finally, the visit either of a delegation of this committee or a broader one of the Parliament would be very beneficial.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the ambassador and thank him for appearing before the committee. I congratulate all parties to the discussion that is taking place at present, which represents a great opportunity. Forty years is a long time and many changes have taken place. There has been considerable polarisation and things do not heal with the passage of time when there is division. Given our experience here, I hope there can be continuity of the discussions now taking place with both sides committed to resolving the issues, regardless of their causes 40 years ago. Going back 40 years will not resolve them so we have to move on from here.

Special emphasis should be placed on the positive aspects of what is likely to take place - the issues both sides have in common as opposed to the issues that divide them. The time will come to deal with the divisive issues, but the first issues to be addressed are obviously those of common interest to both sides which both sides are prepared to concentrate on resolving.

It is a good idea that the meetings are taking place three times a week. I presume it is Monday, Wednesday and Friday. The reason for spacing out the meetings is to give time to both sides to consider their positions, to address issues that may arise and to be able to move forward having considered the issues themselves. In addition, it is good that they have decision-making power. Recognising that the negotiating parties have that power does two things. First, they must have the confidence of the respective groups they represent, which they obviously have. They, in turn, will respect that.

The time has come for us Europeans to deal with issues of such a nature. We cannot go on forever living in the past, referring retrospectively to the issues that caused division. The time has come for us all to prove what we can do outside Europe. When Europeans emigrate outside Europe, we get along very well together, as we have shown in the United States, Australia and elsewhere. That raises the question as to why it should be so difficult to resolve issues in our own backyard, for want of a better description.

I believe it would be greatly beneficial to Europe, the solidarity in Europe, the relationship between the two parts of Cyprus, and the relationship between Greece and Turkey, which is also important. That is because of the European Union's ongoing partnership negotiations and its neighbourhood policy. I hope this is an historic event that will lead to a satisfactory conclusion. I do not believe either can afford to conclude without reaching a solution. It would be a sad reflection on the ability of two groups of people within the European Union not to be able to come to an amicable settlement.

H.E. Dr. Michalis Stavrinos:

It is true that the majority of Turkish Cypriots are in favour of reunification. Many times they publicly disagree with their leadership when it refers to two states, two sovereignties and two peoples. There have been many meetings between the political parties on both sides of the dividing line, which is very promising. If the Turkish Cypriot community was left alone with the Greek Cypriot community, I am more than positive that the problem could be solved yesterday and not tomorrow. Unfortunately, we need to consider the bigger picture, as I mentioned in the beginning, including specific actors both in the region and far away.
I fully agree with the Deputy that this is a golden opportunity for the Cypriots, for the countries in the region and also for the European Union to play the role it is destined to play. If the raison d'êtreof the European Union was the solution of the divisions of the past, Cyprus is today's challenge and we hope it will respond to it positively.

Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the ambassador for being so forthcoming and open with the committee this afternoon.

I agree with Deputy Durkan that we have to be very positive on this. It is a window of opportunity that should not be missed. I congratulate the negotiators from Turkey and from Cyprus on this initiative. It is a step-by-step process. The negotiators need to take small steps at a time. The ambassador spoke about words, but words can be overturned and changed as we have seen in Northern Ireland. We wish the negotiators well.

There will be an opportunity for the Turkish ambassador to appear before the committee in the coming weeks and we look forward to that meeting. The committee is available to assist both sides to reach a peaceful resolution. We have had the experience within our own island - a divided island - where two communities work and live closely together. There will always be challenges and, as we know from our experience with Northern Ireland, there will also be challenges in Cyprus.

We thank the ambassador for the invitation to visit his island. If it is possible we will try to do so if we can be of any assistance. We will keep in touch with the ambassador. We wish him well in his role as an ambassador. He has been very forthcoming and open during his time here. I wish him well for the rest of his time here. We look forward to working closely with him.