John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Damien English and Áine Collins.

The Industrial Development (Forfás Dissolution) Bill 2013 was referred to the select committee by order of the Dáil on 29 January 2014. I welcome the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, and his officials. As there are no amendments, we will conclude Committee Stage today. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I raised a question about this on Second Stage. At present, we can see the budget for Forfás, given that it is a separate agency of the Department, and we can decipher how much of the budget is being spent on independent research. Will it still be possible to see how much the Department is spending on independent research and research that might challenge the Department as well as other instruments of policy in respect of enterprise in the new presentation of budgets after the dissolution?

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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We will follow the practice we had this year whereby our departmental budget on consultancy reflected Forfás's spend. It is intended that the consultancy commissioned independently will be shown in the accounts in the usual way and will be open to scrutiny here when the Estimates are presented.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Forfás budget for research was approximately €4.5 million when one stripped it out from all the other costs. Will we still see a research line in the Department, that is, what the Department has spent on its internal research? The Department is acquiring a very qualified and talented bunch of people. Will they still be able to do the type of research that Forfás did and will they still be in a position to challenge the Department from within the Department? Will we see what resources they have to do that?

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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We are setting up a strategic policy division within the Department. We will continue to maintain the approach that has existed with Forfás and, indeed, is adopted by other Departments such as the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform whereby certain studies can be published that do not reflect or do not necessarily reflect the views of the Minister. We are retaining the scope to publish independent research. That is one of the strengths we wish to retain. That has been clearly signalled in the way this integration is occurring. There will be an independent voice and independent reporting. That is also being copperfastened by the continuing role of Forfás in servicing the National Competitiveness Council, NCC, which will provide reports on competitiveness independently of the Government. We have strengthened that this year by providing that each quarter the NCC will present a report on competitiveness to the Cabinet committee on economic recovery and jobs which will include more detailed policy areas where there is a belief that these need to be addressed.

In terms of presentation of the accounts of the Department, the policy unit will have a certain allocation in terms of staff and so forth but we would not usually set out separate headings for individual units. The non-pay budget of Forfás is already in the Department's research and consultancy part of the overall budget, so we do not intend to separate them. Obviously, however, we would have information available to Deputies on the strategic policy unit and its activities. Clearly, the line sections of the Department overseeing Enterprise Ireland, EI, the Industrial Development Agency, IDA, or Science Foundation Ireland have an important policy dimension to their work in terms of monitoring, understanding and proposing potential changes in policy.

I am determined that policy-making and policy-thinking do not become solely the occupation of a strategic policy unit divorced from the line sections. Its strengths will be in promoting cross-departmental collaboration, looking at how well the various parts are interacting, examining the wider policy environment in which we operate and seeing to what extent we are competitively benchmarking ourselves against the best. I am not instituting a rigid system whereby policy is in one area and everything else is in a separate area. Policy imbues every line operation and that is its role.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I presume some of this property in which offices operate is rented or owned. Is it all departmental property?

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Forfás was the owner of all industrial policy as well as the properties of the individual agencies. The property function has been transferred to the IDA. The IDA provides the property solutions for Enterprise Ireland as well as itself.

The property previously vested in Forfás is now vested in IDA.

Michael Conaghan (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Where is the head office?

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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IDA Ireland is in Wilton Park House, Wilton Place, which is on the canal.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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What is the up-to-date position on Carrisbrook House, Ballsbridge, the Forfás office building in Ballsbridge which has one tenant. There seems to be an inability to let the remaining floors.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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That continues to be the case. Every effort has been made by Forfás to seek replacement tenants or to dispose of the leasehold interest. Working with professional estate agents, a number of marketing initiatives were undertaken since 2008. Forfás has worked with IDA Ireland in marketing the property. The Office of Public Works and the Department of Finance were advised of the availability of the vacant space in the building for consideration in respect of any requests to OPW from the public sector for additional space.

In 2011 and 2012, Forfás stepped up direct marketing and during this period a total of 12 viewings of the building took place. A letting was not secured.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Is it not odd when the IDA is citing the lack of office accommodation in Dublin as an issue, particularly between the canals, that a property with four empty floors right bang in the middle of where everybody wants to be is available on lease from the OPW? There seems to be an attitude to this asset that it will be alright on the night.

On Second Stage, I had suggested it would be perfect as a space for start-up businesses. It seems to be left idle.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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On foot of the Deputy's remarks, I will look again at Carrisbrook House. No effort has been spared in turning over every stone in terms of both the private and public sector market. I will talk to the property managers to see if the space would be of interest to Enterprise Ireland or others who would be looking at start-up space.

Clearly, with the improvement in the property market the efforts will continue. I will ask that the possibility of alternate use be considered.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Does the existing tenant have a veto over new tenants?

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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No.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Either formally or informally?

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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No.

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I may have some proposed amendments to table on Report and Final Stages. They refer to the following: a change to the Long Title to correct the reference to the Health and Safety Authority; an amendment to shorten section 25 of the Bill; and an amendment to provide for developing the devolvement of the administration of the pensions for existing pensioners of Forfás to a relevant body and to provide for the devolvement of the administration of pensions for retired staff of the county enterprise boards to a relevant body. My officials are currently working with the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel to finalise these amendments.

In addition I may have further amendments of a drafting nature relating to transfer of staff provisions in respect of Forfás staff being transferred to various bodies. My officials are currently consulting with relevant parties to finalise this matter. If amendments are necessary I propose to make such amendments on Report Stage.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Does the Minister wish to make some final comments?

Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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This Bill is part of the work of trying to re-organise government to be more effective. I thank the Vice Chairman, members of the committee and the many people involved in making this integration a possibility. I have always held the view, going back to the time of the Culliton report, which enunciated industrial strategy, when the strong view at that stage was that we needed effective agencies targeting indigenous enterprise and overseas investment, that we also needed a strong Department. What emerged was an advisory body which was semi-detached from the Department. I think that weakened the Department over the years and I feel that this integration will not only rationalise and reorganise institutions but will be a strong support for the Department as a policy making unit, capable of improving support for enterprise and employment and all the various responsibilities in creating the environment for doing good business.

I thank the Deputies for their support. I hope this improves policy making and the ability to influence wider Government thinking about enterprise strategy.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for their presence today.